Given the option of spending the first night of Chanukah with family and friends, or going to a meeting, Monticello school board officials didn’t have to think twice - reports the Record Online.Totally agreed. I think it is terribly insensitive to schedule a board meeting for the first night of Chanukah, and I completely support the Jewish board members in their plan to boycott the meeting. Christian members of the school board would never allow a meeting to be scheduled for Christmas or Easter, so it is unreasonable to expect board members of a different religious denomination to show up on a holiday that is as important to them. And for the record, I would feel exactly the same way if members of the Hindu religion were being asked to show up to a meeting scheduled for Diwali, or Muslims on Eid. This is America, and we all need to be respectful of each other's religious differences and boundaries, even if that happens to entail rescheduling a board meeting.
They are reportedly boycotting a Sullivan County School Board Association dinner meeting that was curiously scheduled for the night of Dec. 4, which has been on the calender for a year as the first night of Chanukah.
Monticello Superintendent Pat Michel said he contacted the organizers, including BOCES Superintendent Martin Handler, asking them to reschedule.
“They mulled it over,” Michel told the Record.
“They said that is the night.”
“I don’t think they would schedule the event on Christmas Eve,” said Monticello school board member Jacob Billig, noting that the consensus of his board is to not attend. “To me it is very insensitive.”
Tuesday, November 20, 2007
Board Boycott
From Yeshiva World:
Maybe it's a War on Chanukah (TM)! And don;t pretend you Orthodox wouldn't like to schedule every Lawrence board meeting on Sunday or Christmas just so that your Christian counterparts couldn't attend!
ReplyDeletechristian counterparts? Like Stan Kopilow, you mean? David Sussman? Asher Mansdorf? Uri Sussman? Michael Hatten? Sol Blisko? Murray Foreman? Which one is Christian? It seems to me that Lawrence would do fine scheduling a board meeting on Christmas actually.
ReplyDeleteSorry, OM. Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Rosh Hashanna, Yom Kippur, Pesach, you'd be correct, but we all know that Melacha isn't Assur on Chanuka, and they can go to the meeting. Yeah, it wouldn't be scheduled on Chrismas or Easter, but how about Ash Wednesday? Shrove Tuesday? St Patrick's Day? If no business was ever conducted on a day when some religion had something special going on, well then, no business would ever be conducted. Chanuka is a minor Jewish Holiday. It's become a big deal in America as a reaction to Chrismas. C'mon, we have to pick our battles, and I don't think this is worth fighting.
ReplyDeleteSee, but that's YOUR opinion on the matter. The fact is, many Jews treat Chanukah as one of the most important Jewish holidays of the year - regardless of whether Jewish tradition tells us it's a "minor Jewish holiday". The bottom line is that the first day of Chanukah is far more important to most American Jews than your example of Pesach.
ReplyDeleteChristian members of the school board would never allow a meeting to be scheduled for Christmas or Easter,
ReplyDeleteChristmas and Easter are major holidays in the Christian faith. Hanuka is a minor holiday in the Jewish faith.
/Apples and oranges
ReplyDeleteChristmas and Easter are major holidays in the Christian faith. Hanuka is a minor holiday in the Jewish faith.
Who says? Why don't you ask my non-observant co-workers, who treat Chanukah as a far more important holiday than Pesach or Sukkot (a few didn't even know what Sukkot was until they heard about it from me). I know a few who would happily have a meeting on Sukkot - but never on the first night of Chanukah, when many of them have parties or get-togethers scheduled with family and friends. There are certainly enough Jews who treat Chanukah as a major holiday that it has come to be considered as such.
There are certainly enough Jews who treat Chanukah as a major holiday that it has come to be considered as such.
ReplyDeleteBy that logic, then, we can't argue to have Sukkot recognised and respected as a holiday by our non-Jewish associates, as it has not come to be considered a major holiday by the general population.
You don't ask a lapsed Catholic to enumerate or evaluate church dogma--why in heavens name would you ask a non-observant jew whether Chanukah is a minor or major observance? Chanukah is the non-observant jew's answer to Christmas. Unless this meeting interfered with bentching chanukah lecht or was taking place in the presence of the burning lecht, where it is held that it is issur to do work, what is the problem with a meeting?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteBy that logic, then, we can't argue to have Sukkot recognised and respected as a holiday by our non-Jewish associates, as it has not come to be considered a major holiday by the general population.
No, by that logic, we don't need people presuming to decide for us which holidays are "minor" and which are "major".
I think it's also important to note that regardless of whether I think Chanukah is a "major" holiday or not, I do refrain from scheduling late meetings on Chanukah, as does my husband, so that we can get home to light candles at a normal hour. In addition, my kids get out early from Yeshiva so that they can light on time, and they get a few days of vacation from Yeshiva during Chanukah. Si it's obviously important enough to the kids' Yeshiva administration. The same reasoning that causes me to alter my work schedule and causes my kids' schools to shorten their day would cause me to be annoyed if a group I was a member of scheduled a meeting during Chanukah.
" Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteYou don't ask a lapsed Catholic to enumerate or evaluate church dogma--why in heavens name would you ask a non-observant jew whether Chanukah is a minor or major observance? Chanukah is the non-observant jew's answer to Christmas. Unless this meeting interfered with bentching chanukah lecht or was taking place in the presence of the burning lecht, where it is held that it is issur to do work, what is the problem with a meeting?"
the first part of your question doesn't jibe with the second part. Even a lapsed Catholic that doesn't appreciate the religious aspect of Christmas would not be expected to come to a meeting on that day. And there is obviously no prohibition against driving on Christmas for non-Jews. Yet there still would never be a meeting shcheduled.
OM:
ReplyDeleteHave to disagree with you. You can light the Chanukah candles at, say, 4:30 to 5:00 p.m. and still have plenty of time to make it to the board meeting (which typically starts at 7 or 8 p.m.)
You agree that to the Orthodox and even to the Traditional, Chanukah is a (relatively) "minor" holiday -- the main thing is lighting the Menorah and that time, thereabouts. There is no whole day prohibition of melachah.
Even to those less traditional, while Chanukah may be more of a "big deal" than Pesach or Sukkos, that does not preclude other non-holiday activities. How many people take a whole day off of work on Chanukah?
Tal:
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your opinion, but still maintain my position. For many Jews (and clearly the ones on the board in question are part of that subset), Chanukah IS an important holiday. I know many people who would similarly cancel work meetings on the same night so as not to miss a family gathering or party. These Jews feel it's a day that should not have a scheduled meeting, and their opinion counts. Christians can arguably go to church on Christmas day, eat an early Christmas dinner, and still make it in for a meeting. But no one would ever suggest such a thing. Similarly, just because there is no issur of melacha on Chanukah does not mean there aren't more agreeably days to schedule the meeting.
Those days are called FEDERAL HOLIDAYS for a reason.
ReplyDeleteTo compare X-mas to Chanukkah is really starange. Just becasue the two holidays happen to be in the same month? I think you could compare X-mas to Rosh Hashana...And I don't see anyone scheduling meetings on Rosh Hashana.
But...yet again...spinning is what you do best...and I am not talking about dreidels.
Here's my take. If I drive down Central Ave on the evening of Dec 4th, will every Orthodox owned business be closed? If not, then your argument holds no water. If you can be there to operate your own business, you can be there to conduct public business.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeletegoyguy said...
Here's my take. If I drive down Central Ave on the evening of Dec 4th, will every Orthodox owned business be closed? If not, then your argument holds no water. If you can be there to operate your own business, you can be there to conduct public business.
Are you kidding me? If Five Towns Orthodox Jews decide to keep their businesses open on Chanukah, that speaks for the board members in Monticello? That is an inane argument. I'm sorry.
There are plenty of non-Jewish business owners that choose to keep their businesses open on Christmas and Easter. Does that mean they give up every single of their co-religions' right to not work on those days?
Many stores decided to open up on Thanksgiving this year to get a jump on the holiday season, according to the weekend's New York Times. Have they just negated every American's right to take Thanksgiving off?
Delete
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
Those days are called FEDERAL HOLIDAYS for a reason.
To compare X-mas to Chanukkah is really starange. Just becasue the two holidays happen to be in the same month? I think you could compare X-mas to Rosh Hashana...And I don't see anyone scheduling meetings on Rosh Hashana.
But...yet again...spinning is what you do best...and I am not talking about dreidels.
What in the world does being a Federal holiday have to do with anything??? Rosh Hashana is not a Federal Holiday either, FYI. Neither is Eid or Diwali. Are you saying that YOU are making the decision as to which holiday is important to the Jews on the Monticello school board? Weird.
I am not orthodox and I would not be happy if a group I belonged to scheduled a meeting on Chanukah. I would request a change, but if it couldn't be changed I would probably go anyhow. But in this case, I think a government meeting isn't like a book club meeting. If people aren't comfortable with the date, the meeting should be rescehduled.
ReplyDeleteBrethren,
ReplyDeleteWhy not schedule Christ into your plans on December 4th, regardless of whether you are lighting the very Channukiah He lit in the Bais Hamikdash, or attending the school board meeting? He loves you and He died for you on the Etz.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Rabbi Neal Abraham Wendrow
P.S.-Yesterday Ian Smith, a great Rhodesian patriot and a friend of Jesus Christ, was niftar. My late Mother Aislinn Wendrow was from Rhodesia. May the Smith family find comfort among the mourners of Zion!
And would those arguing against scheduling public meetings on the first night of Hanukka also make the same argument for the second through eighth nights? If so, is this a reasonable request to make?
ReplyDeleteWhen traditionally-observant Jews argue that general-community events not be scheduled on Rosh Hashana, the argument is not simply that it's a religious holiday, but rather that those Jews who observe it are thereby precluded from doing the things that would be entailed in attending the community event -- driving, writing, etc.
The argument that would have to be made for Hanukka is a different one; it's that this is a religious holiday when some families have a tradition of having family events all evening. That argument can be made, but we should admit that it's not as compelling an argument as the one that's made for Rosh Hashana (or for yom tov Sukkot). We should also acknowledge that nothing in our religion (whether as understood in the Orthodox community or as understood in the Conservative or Reform communities) requires that such celebrations be on the first night rather than on any other night of Hanukka, and that having them on the first night is, at most, a matter of preference.
I think it's also important to note that regardless of whether I think Chanukah is a "major" holiday or not, I do refrain from scheduling late meetings on Chanukah, as does my husband, so that we can get home to light candles at a normal hour. In addition, my kids get out early from Yeshiva so that they can light on time, and they get a few days of vacation from Yeshiva during Chanukah.
ReplyDeleteAnd I know many Irish Catholics who take the day off for St Patrick's Day. They take their children to the parade, then have a family meal, and celebrate into the night. Yet I probably wouldn't think twice about scheduling a meeting on March 17th. Certainly, if I could reschedule to accomodate those to whom it was a problem, I would probably do so, but I don't think it's required. I would never think, though, of scheduling a meeting on December 25th.
Basically, OM, what I'm saying is, we lose credibility when we make every issue into a catastrophe. To request a date-change was OK, but once denied, let's be careful to pick appropriate battles.
But who said they couldn't rescehdule? Chanukah is a date that's on every calendar. It's become a major holiday these days, regardless what you say Judaism considers it. If the Jewish board members dont feel comfortable having a meeting that night, no one should dictate their religious needs.
ReplyDeleteAgain this piece of shit Wendrow
ReplyDeleteis back on this forum. Orthomom, when is this going to stop? Why are you giving him a voice?
I agree, is there any way to delete his off topic comments?
ReplyDeleteWendrow, you are an idiot. Smith was a well known racist. "His entire political career was to be devoted to resisting black majority rule." (The Econimist)
ReplyDeleteWe once again see your true colors. Wendore so out of touch with reality.
Wendorw leave us alone.
You know I really wish posters here would stop being so harshful to Mr. Wendrow. He politely makes his points and doesn't deserve to be disrespected the way he has been. As a religious Jew, I certainly don't agree with his "Messianic" tendencies but he is certainly not worthy of being flamed as bad as he has been here. I mean one guy spoke of wanting to beat him up in a "dark alley." Is this our idea of tolerance on Long Island?
ReplyDeleteBy the way Wendrow isn't such an idiot. Good "old Smitty" was 100 times better than Mad Bob Mugabe in running things in Zimbabwe and I reckon if he ever had the chance to go head to head in a fair election with the current ZANU-PF rulers, Ian Douglas Smith and his Rhodesian Front would have won in a landslide. (I read the "Economist" piece cited in the previous post and it was way off the margin.)
One word for you again, OM, and that is "entitlement." I think it would have been more sensitive of the board to schedule this meeting for another night. I don't know how the Jewish board members approached changing it, but perhaps the approach they may have taken to this matter determined the outcome. That said, crap happens. I teach that to my children and my students. I don't think it is wise to raise a ruckus about all crap. Like the majority of posters, I feel there are reasons to let this one go. I was blasted in this forum a while back for asking for more measured behavior and for factoring in the effect of an action in with the righteousness of an action. When we are not speaking of Halachic violations, it behooves us to assess and reassess the battle.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how the Jewish board members approached changing it, but perhaps the approach they may have taken to this matter determined the outcome.
ReplyDeleteanon mom: You might want to read the news coverage. The Jewish members of the board seemed pretty calm and reasoned. This was a scheduled dinner meeting, where board members get together and talk about issues concerning the district. It certainly does not sound like an essential of time-sensitive meeting that would be complicated to reschedule for the handful of board members who do not view it as a conflict. YOU may feel the Jewish board members somehow show "entitlement" by wanting to spend the first night of Chanukah with their families. I feel that they ARE genuinely entitled to ask the district to reschedule a non-essential meeting so that they can spend the holiday as they wish.
When we are not speaking of Halachic violations, it behooves us to assess and reassess the battle.
It's nice that you're so easygoing about your comfort level when it comes to celebrating a holiday. I daresay, though, that you might not be so comfortable for a holiday such as Sukkot, which many non-observant Jews have never even heard of. Do you want them rolling their eyes at your sense of "entitlement" if you were to ask them to reschedule a meeting held for Shemini Atzeret? It's all about being sensitive to others' needs. For many non-observant Jews, Chanukah is far more important a holiday than Sukkot - regardless of whether you see it their way. So it really isn't your decision to make for them. I think it's more than a bit presumptuous of you to make the litmus test of whether to "assess and reassess the battle" over whether it is a Halachic violation. There are too many Jews for whom Judaism is about more than Halacha. Far be it from my job to tell them that if it's not what I define as a Halachic issue, they don't have my support.
OM,
ReplyDelete"You might want to read the news coverage"
I did.
"The Jewish members of the board seemed pretty calm and reasoned. "
Didn't say they weren't calm and reasoned. Merely stated that I don't know how they went about it. Sometimes phone calling and conversation is better than one phone call or paperwork.
Sometimes you have to speak to more than one person and in a certain way. Again, I don't necessarily assume that they went about it the wrong way. I was just asking.
"YOU may feel the Jewish board members somehow show "entitlement"
No, just you. I think they are entitled to request a change. I think you act with entitlement when you rage about the board's decision not to change it.
" So it really isn't your decision to make for them. "
I didn't make any decisions for them. I support their decision not to go. Right on. I disagree with your decision to rail about this.
Occasionally, I disagree with your passion on some matters that you bring up here. I disagree with your sentiments. That's all. You kinda shouldn't get so angry about it. But you do every time. You seem extremely closed at times. I work in the Yeshiva system and have worked in Public Schools. I believe in standing up for one's rights. I understand that not all of us will stand up for the same things. It's just your comments that occasionally beg for a response. Nothing personal.
ReplyDeleteNo, just you. I think they are entitled to request a change. I think you act with entitlement when you rage about the board's decision not to change it.
Rage? Weird definition of "rage", I guess. This isn't about my sense of entitlement. This is about my support for their entitlement. Like, when I show support for a non-Jew or non-observant Jew whose rights aren't being considered - it isn't about whether I am personally entitled to those considerations.
I didn't make any decisions for them. I support their decision not to go. Right on. I disagree with your decision to rail about this.
Occasionally, I disagree with your passion on some matters that you bring up here. I disagree with your sentiments. That's all. You kinda shouldn't get so angry about it. But you do every time. You seem extremely closed at times. I work in the Yeshiva system and have worked in Public Schools. I believe in standing up for one's rights. I understand that not all of us will stand up for the same things. It's just your comments that occasionally beg for a response. Nothing personal.
Your call. Your right.
But I think it's amusing that you are calling me "closed" when you are trying to tell me that my method of assessment for whether to make an issue over something is whether it is halachically permissible or not. I AM trying to be more open-minded to others' needs - which is why I think that the feelings of non-observant board members should be taken into account, and which is why I feel that the lack of accommodation to their needs is upsetting. If it were over a meeting scheduled on Sukkot or Pesach, I doubt you would feel I'm acting "entitled". This likely, from the stance they are taking, seems as important to them as halacha is to me. The whole point of religious freedom is that we don't dare to set others' religious standards for them. The last thing we need is for someone to start deciding which religious standards or sensitivities are important and which are negligible. Far be it from my place to set standards for anyone - just to show support for those standards and sensitivities when I feel it is warranted. That's why I have a blog. So that I can set my standards for what I think my readers should know about.
And I certainly think expressing support for these board members, and reiterating the need to be sensitive to each other's religious differences and boundaries is always a timely and relevant lesson. Call it taking the opportunity from a current events story to make it into a learning experience. I think it behooves all of us to be sensitive to others - even if they may have standards different from our own. You, of course may prefer not to do so, and instead to say "crap happens". As I said, your call.
I see your outrage. First of all, to me, it was never about whether they were observant or not. I get what you are saying, though. To me, it was about an insensitive decision that wasn't righted. It happens even with regard to Sukkot or Pesach or Shavuot. I really didn't consider that they had more or less of a right to complain. I think they should complain if it interferes with their holiday observance and I think that if they spoke to everyone that needed to be spoken to and explained their concerns to everyone in person or on the phone, then they shouldn't go that night. Period. I don't think I needed to read about it in the original article or here. This kind of stuff happens all the time. I see why you were up in arms about the Halachic comment.
ReplyDeleteGood thing Martin Luther King didn't have anon mom for a mom. "I have a dream" sounds a lot better than "crap happens."
ReplyDeleteTo me, it was about an insensitive decision that wasn't righted. It happens even with regard to Sukkot or Pesach or Shavuot. I really didn't consider that they had more or less of a right to complain. I think they should complain if it interferes with their holiday observance and I think that if they spoke to everyone that needed to be spoken to and explained their concerns to everyone in person or on the phone, then they shouldn't go that night. Period. I don't think I needed to read about it in the original article or here. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
ReplyDeleteBut see, the way to ensure these types of things will continue to happen all the time regarding Pesach, or Sukkot, or Diwali, or Chanuka, or Eid, is to say exactly what you are saying: "crap happens", and "I don't think I needed to read about it in the original article or here". If no one expresses support for peoples' religious rights or the need to be sensitive to their religious needs then how can we expect there to be any ramifications to being completely insensitive to those same religious needs? The same way I would want support if I got fired for not working on Sukkot, I want to support those who do not want to work on a holiday they deem worthy. If I feel that it is important to do unto others as I would have done to myself - which you seem to feel is another way of being "entitled", fine. But you know, I don't really think it is.
I appreciate your opinion, and I guess I can understand your motivations. But I just really don't agree.
Anon 12:47,
ReplyDeleteYou know, I'm a big fan of choosing your battles. I'm a realist. I think there are grey areas in life. I am not alone. Reread the comments on this thread. We moderates are often villified for this approach. If you don't teach your kids to try their best, be honest, stand up for themselves, but then accept with dignity those battles that do not go your way, then you are missing a piece of the lesson. No one is saying not to try. There are grey areas. That's all. And, we Jews of all stripes must be sensitive to that and accepting of it.
You know, I'm a big fan of choosing your battles. I'm a realist. I think there are grey areas in life. I am not alone. Reread the comments on this thread. We moderates are often villified for this approach. If you don't teach your kids to try their best, be honest, stand up for themselves, but then accept with dignity those battles that do not go your way, then you are missing a piece of the lesson. No one is saying not to try. There are grey areas. That's all. And, we Jews of all stripes must be sensitive to that and accepting of it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not really sure how that differs with my post. I am not some sort of celebrity, nor do I represent some organization. I'm an anonymous blogger, who is entitled to her opinion. Why in the world do I have to choose my battles? I highly doubt any of the battles I choose will be won or lost solely because I chose them. Am I trying to rally my readers to go up to Monticello and march upon the school board building? Am I starting a letter-writing or call-in campaign? No. I am expressing my feelings. Which is why I have my blog.
Another point is that I certainly can't see myself choosing my battles the way you seem to feel I should - down the lines of whether something affects my religious standards directly. That has nothing to do with being a moderate. That's just not the way I draw my battle lines. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who do that - only pipe in when some injustice directly concerns them. No thanks.
And I will reiterate what you mentioned above - nothing personal. Really. You seem like a nice person, just someone who I happen to disagree with on this topic. No harm, no foul.
Dear moderator,
ReplyDeleteplease post a new blog concerning what happened in Gourmet Glatt recently. Approximately two weeks ago there was mistakenly allowed by the mashgiach of the five towns the brand "bushs best" original baked beans which has in its ingrediants bacon meat, versus the vegetarian brand which is certified kosher. The outrage is that the Vaad of 5 towns has not alerted the community of this mishap, and for those who purchased this brand must kasher their dishes and utensils immediately bec. of the treif meat
Orthomom said...
ReplyDeleteI think it is terribly insensitive to schedule a board meeting for the first night of Chanukah, and I completely support the Jewish board members in their plan to boycott the meeting. Christian members of the school board would never allow a meeting to be scheduled for Christmas or Easter, so it is unreasonable to expect board members of a different religious denomination to show up on a holiday that is as important to them. And for the record, I would feel exactly the same way if members of the Hindu religion were being asked to show up to a meeting scheduled for Diwali, or Muslims on Eid. This is America, and we all need to be respectful of each other's religious differences and boundaries, even if that happens to entail rescheduling a board meeting.
Where is your outrage at the Lawrence Public Schools holding a board meeting on the same night? When the Sullivan County School Board Association, which as you full well know is not a government agency but a political/professional organization, hold a private dinner meeting on a holiday it's "the Jew haters are screwing us again."
The Lawrence School Board, which IS a government agency, holds a real meeting to conduct official business on the same night and not a word.
"Christian members of the school board would never allow a meeting to be scheduled for Christmas or Easter," but apparently Jewish members of YOUR school board, which is all of them, DID schedule a meeting on Chanukah. Jews can be so anti-semitic sometimes.
I would expect your response to be either:
a) "I was wrong to support the Monticello board members and their selfish behavior in inconveniencing all the other members of their political club by pressuring them to cancel the dinner party."
or
b) "The members of the Lawrence School Board have shown me their true colors with their lack of respect for the Jewish community and their own families, and until a proper apology is offered I will be forced to actually say something bad about them. Maybe."
Please circle one answer only.
uthgo getiu psopi
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