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Thursday, August 25, 2005

Yeshiva Students Stabbed

This tragic story is terribly sad:
A massive police manhunt was underway Thursday for an Arab man who stabbed 21-year-old British yeshiva student Shmuel Mat to death and seriously wounded a classmate with a large kitchen knife in a terror attack in Jerusalem's Old City.

...The two victims of the stabbing attack, who studied at the city's Mir Yeshiva, were rushed by Magen David Adom paramedics to Hadassah University Hospital at Ein Karem and Jerusalem's Sha'are Tzedek Hospital.

Mat died on the operating table in the intensive care unit of Hadassah Hospital just over an hour later, having never regained consciousness.

Mat came to Jerusalem from Britain to study about a year and a half ago. Rabbi Binyamin Carlebach, head of the Mir Yeshiva, related that he would get up every morning at 4:00 to study. He was engaged several months ago and was planning to marry in three months.
There's another facet to the story, though, that I found a bit upsetting as well:
Meanwhile, several hundred haredim damaged a private ambulance outside Jerusalem's Hadassah Hospital at Ein Karem early Thursday, after thinking that police were planning on transferring Mat's body to a morgue for an autopsy, police said.

Police dispersed them from the area and arrested four suspects. Three policemen were injured in the incident.
Is there a halachik basis for damaging property and injuring people to prevent an autopsy from taking place? I'm not saying there isn't, though I'd be surprised.

24 Comments:

Anonymous bishul akum said...

Ortho don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.Why don't you focus on the undemocratic policies of the government wchich does autopsies without consent
A horrible story the Arab probably did this because he was abused as a child

11:06 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

" Ortho don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."
I'm not sure how I'm doing this here. The government did not do an autopsy in this case. My question is whether these protesters considered that people's safety might be put at risk by their activism. I am only asking whether a Rav would approve of this violent protest for this particular cause. Vandalism of an ambulance and injury to police officers does not seem proper.

11:12 AM  
Anonymous bishul akum said...

I am only asking whether a Rav would approve of this violent protest for this particular cause. Vandalism of an ambulance and injury to police officers does not seem proper

100% not any sensible Rav would not approve Then again their were Rabbonim who called for disobience during the disengagement

11:15 AM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

i posted on the same issue with a different take

11:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"wchich does autopsies without consent"
Every country does autopsies without consent-otherwise you could never prove a murder by a physician for example.

9:37 PM  
Anonymous cosmo said...

orthomom,

I must say I had my doubts, but now I have to agree with some of your other posters that you tend to put an anti- jewish spin on things. I must agree with bishul. The story here is that a jewish person was stabbed to death by a pallestenian. Sometimes you have to let certain things go. You are obviously a frum person and as such should understand the sensitivity in doing an autopsy (especially in open case as this). In this case I don't see what good an autopsy would have done. By ending your post the way you did you r putting the focus on the wrong issue.

9:39 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Cosmo:
Thanks for your opinion. I disagree, but you knew that already. I posted my feelings. Clearly, I was extremely upset by the stabbing. I'm allowed to tack something on that I am additionally upset about, albeit on a smaller scale. I have feelings about how the behavior of an Orthodox Jew should be. This kind of violence and vandalism does not figure into it.

10:11 PM  
Blogger ari said...

DIdn't RSZA allow an outopsy if you can find evidence to the murderer and therfore prevent other murders? Also I read 5 diff. accounts as to what actually happened.

10:11 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

Cosmo, I don't understand how you can say that Orthomom is putting an "anti-Jewish" spin on things. If a Jew criticizes something another Jew does because she thinks it's immoral, violates halakhah, is impolitic, or for some other reason, does that make the criticism "anti-Jewish"? Can't we engage in some self-criticism at times?

12:17 AM  
Anonymous bishul akum said...

rebecca are you ortho's alter-ego?

12:22 AM  
Anonymous bishul akum said...

Anonymous said...
"wchich does autopsies without consent"
Every country does autopsies without consent-otherwise you could never prove a murder by a physician for example


Not in the USA

12:51 AM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...

bottom line the fear of a yiddish body being desecrated, yes desecrated, they had to react quick. this is just another sign of the anti-orthodox, there is no reason in the world why an autopsey should be done, and the entire state of israel knows that autopsies sre asur.
the problem with you people is you think like americans sometimes i repeat sometimes, and someimes your secular way of thinking overcomes you. could it have been more peaceful, maybe but all i know if lo alenu this was someone you guys knew you would be right there on top of that ambulece.

10:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Not in the USA"

Autopsies are done without consent-essentially any sudden death where the cause is not reasonably sure-eg apparently suspicious deaths, and as are in an entirely different type of death-sudden deaths of teenagers have had autopsies. Many others.
It is true that the research, training type autopsie will not be done without consent-but the right of the ME to do autopsies is there.

1:09 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

Bishul - ah, no, I am not Orthomom's alter ago - take a look at my blog, you'll see we're not identical...

1:32 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

We need people like Orthomom pointing out that thug-like behavior is NOT acceptable. I find the behavior of the thugs of the Orthodox community deplorable and everyone should be speaking out against it, lest it be deemed "normal."

11:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SephardiLady some of your fellow separdim are not exacly so civil

11:59 PM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

אבינו מלכנו, נקום לענינו נקמת דם עבדך השפוך

10:23 AM  
Anonymous cosmo said...

OM,

I appreciate the civility of your response, not just in this case but in general. It is why I enjoy reading your blogs. Even though we disagree on some points, it's a pleasure having civil dialogue with someone. It keeps the mind sharp, and allows us to appreciate anothers point of view.

Thank you again.

1:16 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

Anynomous said: "SephardiLady some of your fellow separdim are not exacly so civil."

And when it hits the news I will be happy to label the behavior as deplorable in no uncertain terms.

In the meantime, in my kehilla which is made up of just about every type of Sephardi, the behavior is very pleasant.

1:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is a very bad history in Israel regarding autopsies ,In the Mid sixties Israel was the largest suppliers of cadavers to American universities .People refused to go to hospitals Would rather die at home .There is a lot of distrust.

12:52 AM  
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