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Monday, January 23, 2006

On The Topic Of Winter Break

A reader who goes by the name of "Michael" sent me an e-mail that brought up a topic I have been thinking about for quite a while now:
Am I wrong to be annoyed that so many people are taking their kids out of school to go on vacation, even though they are leaving before actual vacation starts. I tend to think that from the start of the year you know the schedule and if you want to go away you plan around the actual vacation. It seems to me that by pulling your kids out during actual school days the message is to the children is clear: Florida/Bahamas, etc., is more important than school.

So many of my neighbors from two particular schools just take their kids out of school because they want to go away. Forget about the fact that vacationing in some of these places raises significant halachik issues, it is just so bad for children to see that vacation trumps school. The implications are obvious, "why do homework, instead I will watch a game, if vacation trumps school why can't sports.

One school has gone so far as to implicty condone such behavior and has scheduled a second siddur play so that those students who missed the first one (scheduled for this week) will be able to attend the "make-up" for the vacationers.
The short answer: Michael, I agree with you almost completely on this.

Now for the long answer:

There are a few facets to the topic of winter vacation, so please bear with me while I try to untangle my thoughts.

First of all, there is the first issue that Michael mentioned above. Many parents tack a few days on to either/both ends of the school vacation, because they somehow feel that a week to ten days is not enough of a family vacation. I am not hugely in favor of this. As Michael points out, the message that these parents are sending their children is pretty close to saying that Vail, Miami or Aruba is more important a place to be than at their desks, learning Torah. I can already hear all the arguments from parents who have done or are planning to so echoing in my comment section. "But we all need our family time together so badly!"or "The school condones it, so what am I doing so wrong?". In terms of the family time, I hear you. Everyone needs family time. But is the extra weekend that you are gaining together really worth sending your kids a message that you get to decide when school is important and when it is not? Not sure. And please be aware that I am not discussing family trips to visit out-of-town grandparents. What I am referring to here are the trips to sun and ski spots that so many families have planned for this week.

The second point, which is the fact that the schools implicitly condone the trips, is a fault with the administrations of these Yeshivas. These Yeshivas should make a policy, and stick to it. The fact that, as Michael recounts above, there is a school in the area that has rescheduled a school event because too many parents will be away due to "vacation creep" is appalling. If the parents choose to go away and miss an event, fine. But that is their choice. I don't think the school should give them the chance for a make-up siddur play, should it?

On a related note, There is even a boys' Yeshiva in the area that does not give a winter vacation at all. They give a few long weekends throughout the winter, and that is it. If families feel they need to get away for a few days, the Yeshiva allows it on a case-by-case basis. Apparently, a large percentage of the parent body consists of dual-income homes, and the parents complained that they simply could not take off the time. Nor could many of them afford to travel to exotic locales as many of their co-parents were doing. So the school thought that abolishing winter vacation was a good solution. Which it is, for many parents. However, the solution opened up its own can of worms. Instead of some parents flying off with their kids while other parents stay home and scrounge for day care, some kids sit in class and review, while other kids fly off and come back a week later with suntans and vacation pictures. Isn't this creating even a bigger dichotomy between the haves and the have-nots? Again, not sure. Another problem with this particular Yeshiva's system is that because they have no set vacation, teachers are allowed to take off a few days for their own family vacations. Which means that the students are left with a haphazard schedule of substitute teachers and free periods. Wouldn't the school just be better off giving vacation instead of this glorified daycare? Many in the parent body say yes. (Of course, that demographic happens to be the same demographic that is taking their kids out of school to go on vacation anyhow, but whatever.)

Michael's last point is one I hear a lot from parents in the community. It is the fact that parents are sending mixed messages to their children by sending them to Ultra-Orthodox Yeshivas, and then jetting off to places where the ambiance is not exactly... one that their children's Rosh Yeshiva would feel comfortable in. Now, my attitude on subjects such as this is generally nonjudgemental. The choices I make for myself do not have to be the choices another parent would make, and vice versa. Live and let live. That said, let me try to put this in a way that I hope would be understood as not preaching, but rather observing. The fact that parents choose to live a certain lifestyle when at home, and wear certain types of clothing, and identify with a certain community, and then drop much of those lifestyle accoutrements when they go on vacation leaves me (and likely their children) confused.

I am aware of a group in my neigborhood that regularly vacations in the same popular vacation spot, even in the same hotel. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of a family vacation? To me, the prospect of picking up all of my neighbors and their screaming kids and taking them with me to a different locale is not a pleasant one. Not to mention the inappropriateness of couples who consider themselves quite observant (at home) hanging out at the pool or the beach together. Different strokes, I guess.

There. A long, rambling post, on the topic of Winter vacations. Any questions?


Blogger Robbie said...

On the public school side - many of the families I work with have no problem taking their children out for vacations, but when it comes to missing a day of school for a shabbaton with us, oy, it's as if we're the worst people in the world for even asking!

6:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is inappropriate to pull children out of school for vacations. BUT, the Yeshiva vacation schedule makes it near impossible for many families to take a vacation. Many business are practically at a stand still and some are even closed during the last week of December. But the schools are open. So, while the children are in school, the parents are often sitting at home if they are not the types to pull their kids out of school. Then, come the 3rd week of January, the Yeshivot are off, working parents are desperately seeking supervision for their children, and it is near impossible to take a vacation.

Some communities have separate boys vacations and girls vacations. So, if the parents can get off a week in January to take a vacation and they choose to do so, they can either take only the girls or the boys, or they have to pull the boys or girls out of school to go on a vacation.

And, while lavish vacations to Hawaii and the Bahamas might not be appropriate family vacation places for many reasons (halachic issues being just one of many reasons), vacation time affords parents to spend time together with their children and to let them have an educational experience that they will not receive in school if they go to more appropriate places to see historical places throughout the country.

7:27 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Interesting. Not that surprising though. Perfecting the art of the double standard is hard work!

Great comment. You make some very valid points. I will say though, that the few days that my husband and I got to spend alone (well, with the baby) at the end of December, while the big kids were in school, was definitely a time I enjoyed. But you make your points so well - you should really blog.

7:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not yet being a parent, I think back to my days in a similar yeshiva where a few classmates were always taking off extra days to go to Miami and Vermont (isn't that where they went when we were kids?) - I suspect the parents wanted to confuse their kids on some level. Our yeshiva was to the right of most of our families in many respects, yet our parents sent us there because its limudei kodesh was much better than the more modern schools. In a sense, by pulling their kids out these parents were purposefully (and successfully) sending a message that you get to decide when school (and what it is preaching) is important and when it is not. I suspect that is at play these days at well - parents send their kids to what they perceive as the best school, but are sure to counteract some of its influence on frumkeit.

When is the flight to Atlantis?

9:45 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...


Hmm. Interesting. I'm sure there is some of what you are describing at play here - the parents exercising their right to tell the Yeshiva who's boss. And even more interesting, the feeling of rebellion against the Charedi ideals of their kids' Yeshivas is likely subconscious for many of the parents. I can guarantee that most of the parents who do as they like haven't thought it through any further than just... exercising their right to do what they like. This attitude is also very possibly a reaction by parents to to the attempts by many Yeshivas to take over the job of parenting for much of the school year. Then again, it could have nothing to do with rebellion...they could just reaaaally want to go skiing.

10:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank G-d the parents are being parents and taking control over their children's lives. I can't imagine not deciding that it is more important to keep child(ren) home one day to visit an exhibit in a museum, go ice skating, take a walk in the park... This is all part of education and can't be limited to Sunday afternoons. I want my children to spend time skiing, skating, hiking, visiting interesting places and these are JUST AS IMPORTANT TO ME as learning chumash, math, and history. As long as my kids are doing well (enough) in school, I have no problem in supplementing their educations.

10:35 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...


I think you might be missing the point here. I am talking about taking a family away for two weeks to a vacation spot such as the Bahamas or Miami. Now, inasmuch as those are not places known for their educational resources, that is not my problem with them per se. My concern here is the fact that parents are extending the vacation given by the school so that they can grab a few extra days in the sun, not a few extra days in the science museum.

10:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A few extra days in the sun sounds great. And I don't think of education in terms of science or art museums alone-- or for that matter as "vacation" things. Vacation is education. Hanging out with family or friends and scuba diving, playing in the ocean, skiing, hiking in a rainforest, watching the sunset, being away from home are some of the best things about life and aren't included in $10,000 tuitions. That's why I love the idea of taking a few days away from school and helping my family make great memories and have fantastic travel experiences.

11:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'the feeling of rebellion against the Charedi ideals of their kids' Yeshivas'

I don't understand this. There are plenty of modern orthodox day schools in the New York area. If you don't have charedi ideals, why send your kids to a charedi school?

12:18 AM  
Blogger nikki said...

i sit on both sides. as a teacher, i find it incredibly annoying that parents remove kids from school, ask for assignments in advance (as if i don't have enough to do with planning current lessons)which the kids don't do anyway, then they need a quickie catch-up session so that they are not totally lost when they return, many times all of this is for a fancy ski trip to europe...
on the other side, the airlines know (at least elal does) when the school vacations are and naturally hike the prices to exhorbitant amounts, plus do not schedule enough flights to handle the volume. it is quite common that in order to get a flight at all, or one that is sort of affordable you need to take what they have, that means leaving early and/or coming back later. and in israel, where most of my community has family overseas, there is lots of travel and sometimes, going to visit family and reacquaint one's children with their relatives is more important than school.

1:43 AM  
Blogger Sarah said...

I am not a parent so I cannot comment on the pros and cons of various vacation schemes in terms of family dynamics, employment, etc.

But I *am* a former teacher, and can tell you that having a half-empty school the day before a vacation is very disruptive. It also causes a spiral situation, in which teachers decide not to do anything "serious" on the day before a vacation, because no one is there . . . and then the kids feel it is OK to miss school on those days because no one learns anything meaningful anyway . . . leading to more kids missing school.

In the case of my school, I'd say about 20 percent of the absent kids were taken out by parents who were going to visit family abroad, and the other 80 percent were simply playing hooky, either with or without their parents' knowledge. But I'm sure that in both those groups were kids who said "Oh, come on, Mom, NO ONE will be in school today? Why do I have to be the only dork there?" and so Mom schedules a flight for that day, or caves and says "fine, take a mental health day." (Or the kid just plays hooky.)

If, say, 1/4 of a school's population typically takes an early vacation, it creates a real bind for the teachers. On one hand, why SHOULDN'T they schedule a test or an important lesson for the day before a vacation? It's a school day. On the other hand, in reality, doing so would mean having to deal with a lot of kids who say "But I'll be absent! Yes, my mom knows. We're going on vacation. She said it's OK," blah blah blah. I'd like to see ONE teacher at a Day School send home a zero on a test and the parent say "well, it's true, those are the consequences of an unexcused absence. I guess my child will simply have to take a lower grade on his/her report card. That's the sacrifice we pay for family togetherness time."

At the public school where I taught, vacation was not an excused absence, no matter what kind of note the parent sent home. The only valid excuses were: You were sick (doctor's note required),or your relative died (funeral notice required). That's it. Otherwise, if you missed any sort of test or quiz that day, it's your problem to deal with the zero.

Unfortunately, the population I was dealing with would rather have the zero. But if Day Schools gave out zeros on the days before vacations, those vacations would suddenly be 7 days instead of 9, no question about it.

OK, that's my teacher rant. Come back to me when I have kids (please God) and maybe I'll tell you a different story. :-)

7:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks Orthomom for your kind comments. I've thought about blogging and will let you know when I actually do so.

Regarding Sarah's comments above, the policy of the public schools regarding classwork and homework should be adopted by the Jewish schools (with some appropriate modifications like some allowance for immediate family members simchas). Once the schedule is set, it should be enforced. The schedule should be established with the best interests of the parents in mind. But, once a satsifactory schedule is established, only those with excused absences should be allowed to make up quizzes and tests that are missed.

Too many days of school are wasted. I would be willing to guess that one of every two school days has some sort of interpution where kids are taken out school for either a family trip, a school trip, a school event, production, interviews, etc.

Rescheduling planned events for some of these interuptions sends the wrong message, and there is no doubt in my mind that the kids have picked up the message. It is a dangerous message to send and will make their transition into the working world more difficult.

In addition to the three R's, I think the kid's should graduate school with a real sense of responsibility and discipline. Without establishing and enforcing a schedule, it makes it a lot harder to do so since one must understand that actions have consequences.

9:02 AM  
Blogger MUST Gum Addict said...

There's no question that taking a kid out of school for recreational activities is flat out wrong. And I usually don't make judgemental statements like that. Mind you, these are often the same people who complain that kids have half-days on holidays like MLK or who are upset that kids have off an extra day after major holidays.

When you take kids out of school for vacation (or "important" football games, etc.), the message is clear as day. Learning and school is secondary in life to enjoying yourself. And then you wonder why kids give you such a hard time when you make them do their homework on a school night instead of watching TV or hanging out with friends.

I beg to ask the question: What's more important to a family -- a few days in a sunny locale, where the family can "bond" and spend quality time together*, or children that grow up to understand our true core values and respect?

And OM, your comment about people "acting differently" when on vacation is true. It's even in the Gemara. And in numerous mussar seforim.

*While this isn't a general statement, I suspect that many such families don't really bond much at all, but the kids hang out with their friends and the parents with theirs, etc...

9:58 AM  
Blogger kasamba said...

I live in London and the entire city clears out at vacation times. In order to get flights you have to book in advance, but we always do it with the school calendar in front of us. Our problem is; they change the dates (school closures) and then we have to take some kids out of school earlier than we'd like.

10:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why does everyone is this entertainment/leisure saturated society need a vacation so desperately??? Leave the kids in school and if you have time off from work- learn torah for a few days!

10:54 AM  
Blogger kasamba said...

It's very dangerous in this day and age NOT to bond with your children. Vacations facillitate this bonding in a stress free enviornment.

11:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


You are correct. No one is saying not to vacation, they are just saying don't vacation when there is school. Please, go away, have a good time, but plan in advance so the kids are not taken out of school.

11:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A couple of points . . .

Thanks, SephardiLady, for pointing out how much time is wasted *in* school. As a parent and former teacher, I get so frustrated by the constant special events that one of my kids' schools allow to interrupt the school day. Now, I know kids need breaks in routine and need events to anticipate, but the message I often hear as a parent sounds too much like, "When *we* want to take time out of the school day, it's okay -- when *you* do, it's not okay."

My second point has nothing to do with luxury vacations, which are fortunately pretty rare in my chevra. Instead, people go on extended "simcha trips". Every chassunah requires a week out of school; a bris requires 3 or 4 days. You can't say, "Don't take your kids out of school for their cousin's simcha." But families who have the financial wherewithal to travel to far-flung events often, in my opinion, blur the distinction between legitimately attending a family event and taking a vacation, however more appropriate the venue.

12:13 PM  
Blogger Sarah said...

Lighten up, guys. I find the judgementalism about inappropriate "vacation spots" very interesting. First, what dens of iniquity are you referring to? Bangkok's red light district? Beyond over-the-top destinations like that, I don't know what the problem is with vacationing in popular places. One of the greatest services you can give to children is to show them that they can be Jews while being in a non-Jewish culture. If a woman is wearing a bikini and your daughter asks about it, tell her we don't do that. Children are not stupid; I'm not sure why they would find that confusing.

1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am also not a parent but I most definitely agree with not sending mixed signals to your kids. "We send you to XYZ very frum school but we're not like that. It's OK for us to go to the Bahamas even though your Rosh Yeshiva doesn't agree."
I also agree with you, orthomom, about going on vacation with all your neighbors and friends. That is NOT a vacation, IMO.
And that school that doesn't have official vacation but the kids and teachers can take off whenever they want? That is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. How is it not the most haphazard school? Is there ever a day when every teacher and student is present?

I know it's not easy to balance everything when you are a parents, but there have to be some core values and ideals that you want to pass on to your kids.

1:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try explaining to kids that we do not do that in New York but in Miami we can. Even the smartest kid will find that confusing.

1:37 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Sarah Janeane, it's much more complicated than you are implying. It's not so much my daughter seeing a woman in a skimpy bikini - that would not be an issue. It's an older son or man seeing a woman in a bikini - which many Orthodox jews feel is prohibited. Contrary to your comment, many Orthodox Jews feel that it is impossible to "be (Orthodox) Jews while being in a non-Jewish culture" - when we are talking about the culture of a beachy, tropical setting.

1:39 PM  
Blogger Henchy said...

My kids are in one of the 5T Yeshivos. From what I see going on
there, I am paying thousands and thousands of dollars and the kids are on vacation the entire year.

1:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sarah Janeane....what if the woman your child sees is your "frum" neighbor from Lawrence???

Orthomom.... I heard in my kids Yeshiva, more than 1/2 the teachers will be out on vacation. AND IT'S DURING REGULAR CLASSES!

1:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Henchy, sounds like your kids are in the wrong school. Shop around, there are schools in the area that actually give children an education, torah and secular.

2:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

extending vacation to include the previous friday, or more, has become so widespread in my kids' school, that the kids who are actually sent to school on those days are embarassed, because it means they are not going on some fancy vacation that "requires" extra days. this is made worse by the fact that those of us who dilligently get their kids up at 6:15 am, so they are ontime for school, get reports back at the end of the day about the movies they watched etc. in other words, with so many kids absent, the teachers opted not to cover anything important so as not to have to repeat it when their sun-tanned students return. with that attitude, i should have let my kids sleep in!

2:30 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Great post, OM. One little caveat that I've heard people object to...

Almost no schools coordinate vacations - even though many families, particularly those with kids of disparate ages and both sexes, have kids in multiple schools. Much as you mentioned the fact that parents often have off that last week of December, Jewish schools should consider all making their vacations around the same time. Yes, they don't want it to be a "Christmas" vacation; so start it the 27th or so and let there be an overlap between the kids and parents. Most importantly, let all the schools have the same vacation time.

Somewhat off-topic, I never understood why the Jewish school year is so far off from the secular one: In later years (HS & college-age, especially) it really hurts the ability of kids to get summer jobs if they can't/don't want to work in a camp.

2:33 PM  
Blogger MUST Gum Addict said...

Anon had the right comment. Of course you can point to a non-jewish woman in a bikini and say to your child, "we don't do that". But how do you point to a woman who is frum (we'll, I guess I have to use the term loosely here) and who is wearing a bikini? And

By the way, the real answer to why she's wearing a bikini is because she's skinny and she can.

3:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Although I felt bad taking my daughter out of school early, I did tell the teachers over a month ago, at PTA, that we'd be out those 3 extra days before vacation, and I asked that they send home classwork/homework for her. They know she's a really quick learner and is ahead of the class in many subjects; I'm not worried that she'll make the teacher reteach anything. My son's school vacation and her vacation are during different weeks, so one of them would have to miss. We're on vacation with friends wh have more than 1 kid in the same boys' school and only 1 in the girls, like me, and we're doing a "kosher vacation package," not a beach.

I think that asking the teachers for the work, and making sure my daughter does it daily, shows her that school is important. In that note, I don't think the few days off from school tells kids school isn't important, I think it's the whole year's attitude. We do homework as soon as she comes home; I ask her what she learned about in school, and we're always reading. I think that all that combined tells a kid that school is important, and she can therefore miss a little while not missing it at all.

8:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tova, why should the teacher work extra time to give your child work when you are taking your child out. If you feel so strongly that your child won't miss out then go without the work and don't put extra pressue on the hard working, underpaid teachers.

10:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i am commenting from Jerusalem, so not all of our realities are the same.
vacations are extremely important in a family's development. however, they are certainly not stress-free :) .
showing (and teaching) your values while out of the house and not on shabbat are probably the special 'lessons' the kids will remember more than anything else - a. how to make shabbat in a motel (or camping)
b. how far to you go to find a minyan
c. how is kashrut kept 'at the edge'
these are how kids learn to make their decisions - by how their parents play the 'grey'areas.
our kids (except for one) have or had (we have kids out of school now) 6 days a week. going away on thursday evening for a weekend does not happen often, but it is sooo sweet for all of us when we do.
as mdmom said above, the costs of going abroad during school vacation are between 50-150 percent higher than other times. so my youngest (3rd grader) and i will go visit his grandparents and his cousins for two weeks - not attached to any school vacation. at least his cousins in the us have some vacation then.
we 'told' his teacher(i had to book immediately) and she had no problem with it. in reality over the years the teachers have almost never had problem in elementary school with this type of thing. the school administrations always 'write' against it but i don't recall anyone here ever getting any sanctions because of it.
lastly, regarding the dissonance between the school 'apparent' values and the family practices - every decision (especially school choice) is a compromise and as someone wrote above this is where a family can balance that.
om - great blog, i enjoy reading it very much.

11:06 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Thanks, kobi. And thanks to everyone for weighing in on this.

11:57 PM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...

orthomom: you said.
which many Orthodox jews feel is prohibited.

what the heck are you saying looking at a woman in a bathing suit is 100% asur it does not matter if you have a beard down to the floor or if you are wearind a yalmuka the size of a penny, it is 100 percent asur. i am totally shocked at the choice of words you used.

11:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess I have a different take on all of this than you. First and foremost, I believe that education isn't confined solely to schools and Yeshivot.Every waking moment is an opportunity to learn! I'm a hard-core homeschooler in that manner. Yes vacations are extremely important to many of us.My husband works in a very high power high stress job. OUr family vacations are very very necessary for peace of mind. It affords us an opportunity to re-connect as a family without constant external demands. My husband gets to spend QUALITY time with his offspring and QUANTITY of time, too. Even the most studious of us will end our formal education sometime. Learning is a life-long thing, but formal education in an institution is time-limited. Yet some of the things our families teach us last a lifetime and the bonds and experiences shared remain for the rest of our lives. Is it the vacation locale you object to? If families love to ski then I think it's wonderful that they all do it together. Hawaii has a breathtaking wealth of natural wonders. We never get tired of the islands. I personally feel closer to G-d davening on a beach with my family. We're surrounded with blue ocean, soft sand, swaying palm trees, scented flowers, and the sun. Certainly an osay-ma-asay-bereshit moment. Just being in a different space is healing, too. My husband and I are both professional scientists by training. What a joy it is to share our love of the natural world with our daughter. To snorkel a coral reef, to identify all the different species of native flora and fauna so different from the ones where we live, etc. etc. are simply wonderful. We're never so far away from civilization with the advent of lap-tops and internet connections. (Try public libraries!) And lo and behold, one can even do a Daf-Yomi in the privacy of the library or a hotel suite. Even in non-Jewish parts of the world, it becomes a challenge to find healthy kosher food. Isn't this an important lesson to teach children? That Jews can live and thrive just about anywhere, is amazing to behold! Sorry, I believe in the power of family vacations. Far more powerful and engaging than ANY classroom. Sorry for the rant.

2:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No disagreement. Go and vacation and enjoy the wonderful world that G-d has created. Just schedule the "informal education" so that it does not intefere with the "formal education".

3:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ezzie, in the north jersey area, all the schools have the same mid-winter vacation (now).

4:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At the end of the day, everyone will do what is best for them and their children. It's not like the schools and Yeshivos are paying us to show up. If the education we are talking about is elementary school, frankly it's not such a big deal. I think the middos Bein Adom L'chaveiro is so much more of an important issue in our society today.

9:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was young, we took day trips, not vacations. I guess that's asur today.
I used to be a teacher; trust me, we resented the parents who took their kids out of school for vacation. What the parents were implicitly stating was that the vacations were simply more important than school. Asking for the assignments ahead of time just added insult to the injury. If the parents thought they were such great teachers to their vacationing children, why bother to send them to school at all? We felt like glorified babysitters. When I actually confronted a parent and told her that her kid had fallen behind after missing a week of school, she told me that I was jealous because I could never afford to travel as they did. Every parent thinks their kid is bright and could catch up on missed assignmnents easily. As if a half-hour of homework in a hotel room (after a tiring day of skiing ) is equivalent to a day of school.

11:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello parents--there's plenty of time to go on vacation when school's closed. Aren't the schools closed for 10 weeks each summer?

11:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At the end of the day, everyone will do what is best for them and their children.

Actually, many parents take the easy way out and do not do what is best for their children. Either they do things unknowingly or they have a myriad of reasons to justify themselves.

It's not like the schools and Yeshivos are paying us to show up.

But "we" are paying the schools a lot of hard earned money. I wouldn't pay for extracurricular activities that we were not going to show up for, why would I pay for school when my kids are not going to show up?

If the education we are talking about is elementary school, frankly it's not such a big deal.

It is a big deal to take children out of school. School is their job. And, you only have a short time frame in your children's life to build a sense of responsibility. Having children miss school because you have things you desire to do more is, well, the exact opposite message you want to be sending.

I think the middos Bein Adom L'chaveiro is so much more of an important issue in our society today.

And the issues of school vacation schedules and pulling children out of school goes straight to the heart of "bein adam l'chaveiro."

11:49 PM  
Blogger nikki said...

the person who commented before on the amount of judgementalism here is spot-on. sometimes school is not the most important thing. yes, there are those parents who will take kids out of school early because it's convenient, but a little "dan l'caf zchus," here, people.

it is defintely because i now live 6,000 miles away from my immediate family that i see them in an entirely different light, and now hope to impart to my children the importance of family and those relationships. school will end but the memories of spending time with cousins in their peer group, and meeting newly born cousins (and not so newly born cousins) they've never met before, and spending time with aunts and uncles and elderly but sprightly great grandparents while there is that opportunity, those memories will endure... that'a a different kind of education and sometimes more important than school.

i've learned that what seems like an expensive over the top european vacation may be one far-flung family's way of forming a reunion since europe is the midway point between the u.s. and israel (and cheaper to get to from israel). and families who go away together may do that because in israel many people's friends become like family when the "real deal" is so far away. and maybe that one parent who accused the teacher of jealousy had a good reason for pulling her child out early and was sick of the judgementalism heaped on her for her decision as a parent. who knows?

and maybe i just sometimes see the world though rose-colored glasses.

1:55 AM  
Blogger miriamp said...

Ezzie, my kids' school (admittedly way out-of-town) does exactly that: "Winter" vacation starts December 26th. But the 24th and 25th are pretty hefker days, since all the non-Jewish staff have off, and some people will pull thier kids a day or teo early if they are going away. My husband does not, however, have the whole week off. He has a total of three days off, the 24th, 25th, and 1st (or the appropriate Fridays and/or Mondays if those dates fall on the weekend.) He gets a floating holiday for the 31st. But it's kind of nice to have him home with some of the kdis away during the day. He could work those days instead for comp time, and sometimes he has. (My job is a 24/7 kind of thing, so I never get off.)

But we personally wouldn't pull our kids from school for a vacation. (Umm, what's a vacation?) I thought long and hard about it for a day trip to Albany when my father was being honored, and finally let the kids decide. (*I* had to go -- I left 2 behind, with playdates after school, and took the pre-Ker and the littles). I pull them for Dr. appts only when forced by scheduling constraints. We also wouldn't go on non-Kosher vacations, though, so I'm not the people orthomom is yelling at.

4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the Anonymous who asked why I ask the teachers for the work:

I want them, and my daughter, to know that I know school is important, even if she's not there. My daughter actually did her math and reading homework every day of vacation, unlike the friend who traveled with us. The teachers didn't give her classwork; she got her week's kriah homework that every girl gets on Monday, and she got her mathbook with pages circled, the pages they would do the three days of class that she missed, and one handout. She also got the little homework readers, but no "word lines" or worksheets...but at least she's keeping up to date. I don't think it was hard for the teachers to give it to her on Thursday and Friday, when they'd be giving everyone else the same things on Monday.

Also, I've been in contact with the teachers all year, so they know I'm not "giving them extra work," I'm seriously interested in my daughter's education. When she has off only Thursday-Tuesday, we can't go on this Kosher trip that we've been taking for years, because they don't have Shabbos dates. And if we went on Sun-Tues, my son would miss those days of school. She can afford it better than he can. And my husband insists on vacationing.

5:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tova's point is case in point why vacations should be coordinated. It should be possible for families to spend time together without deciding who will be in school ad who will not be.

5:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you, sephardilady. :)

10:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If the parents thought they were such great teachers to their vacationing children, why bother to send them to school at all? We felt like glorified babysitters"

Judging from what many day school students know after 12+ years-that may be what school is.

6:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The whole winter break is indicative of how the machers running the schools are pricing Orthodoxy out of the range of even average Orthodox income households. This great post by Orthomnom shpuld be a beginning of how costs drive the median Ortho household-approx 50-60K out of Ortho.
All the costs of raising the bar-a Kashrut mafia-where featherbedding is masquarading as frumkeit-day schools where principals earn more than US Supreme Court Justices-are all putting Otho at least in the US out of reach for most. Not necessarily in Israel-where one sees people with yarmulkes being security guards-taxi drivers etc. In the US those people do not generallyexist certainly in the MO community.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good comment by mycroft. I have to say that in the public school that I grew up in, I never heard of anyone taking more than a driving trip for Winter Break or Spring Break. Summer Vacation was varied, some took flights to see family, some took driving trips.

The beauty is that we really didn't know what others did during their breaks and there was no pressure to keep up. I wish the same could be said in the frum community because a bit more privacy would eliminate a lot of peer pressure.

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