Hatzalah Happenings
I opened up the local Jewish paper this week. and was surprised to see a huge two-page ad (which cost around $3,400, according to what is written here) put out by the local Hatzalah organization. Evidently, the organization is extremely unhappy by some words spoken by a local Rabbi in a shiur he gave to some members of his shul a few weeks ago. The relevant grafs from the ad (all grammatical errors and inconsistent italicizing are original):
While we are hurt and outraged at the accusations of a local Rabbi in our community, publicly accusing our members who are Yirah Shamayim and Moser Nefesh of Rachmana Litzlan being Mechallel Shabbos. We would have been silent, preferring not to dignify his venomous attacks against us, with a response.
...However, when he recently publicly Poskened that one should not call Hatzalah but rather look for a Doctor to determine if it is indeed a Sakanah, because Hatzalah members are not qualified to make that determination, we must cry out. We are frightened and concerned that delay in calling for emergency care will Rachmana Litzlan result in unecessary death.
The ad enumerates the various qualifications its members have in being capable of determining when a situation is truly life-threatening, and when it is required to break the laws of Shabbos. It also goes on to state that:
In the summer of 2000, the Hatzalah Bais Din Poskend "on the issue of whether or not a local Rav or even Vaad Horabbanim has a right to become involved in Halachic decisions regarding Hatzalah practices in their local neighborhood.Now, if this were to be the case, that a local Rabbi stood up and denigrated these dedicated members who give so much of themselves of acting in a way that is contrary to Halacha, then indeed that would be troubling. Of course, the ad is too vague to make any determinations about whether that happened, or what happened at all. So after Shabbos, I put in a call to a friend of ours who is usually in the know when it comes to neighborhood goings-on. According to him, the Rabbi of a local shul, who has reputedly garnered a bit of a reputation as being outspoken on some controversial issues in the past, (including, apparently, other issues that were relevant to Hatzalah), made some references in a weekly shiur that some feel denigrated Hatzalah members. However, the fellow I was speaking with seemed to feel that the whole statement by the Rabbi was blown out of proportion, and that much of this might be based in previous bad blood between the head honchos of the organization and this Rabbi. He said that he spoke to a friend who had actually been present during the lecture, and his friend did not feel that the Rabbi was denigrating Hatzalah members, or Paskening for Hatzalah members at all. He simply was advising his congregants that they should take care before calling Hatzalah for something minor (the example I was told he gave was a cut finger), and in the case of a situation that is certainly not life-threatening, people should contact a doctor first. Additionally, the person present at the Shiur said it was a tiny part, and he certainly did not walk away with the message that he should call a doctor instead of Hatzalah in the case of a true or even a possible medical emergency. I can't see that as being inappropriate, nor do I see how giving such advice is contrary to the reference in the ad to a Din Torah finding that there is one central Halachic authority for the organization. Anyone know any more about this, and care to add?
Another point is that I'd like to make is that I live nowhere near where this Rabbi gave the shiur. I would have never known a blessed thing about this little incident, and I strongly suspect neither would the vast majority of the 5 Towns, had this not been called to my attention in a ginormously massive ad in the local paper. So what was really the point here? Clearly it was not to protect the reputations of the local Hatzalah volunteers, as they were never seriously harmed by this, even if the organization maintains that the Rabbi said what they claim he did - which my source disputes.
Unless someone has some information that the Rabbi behaved in a manner that is contrary to the version I reported above, I can't possible see how Hatzalah can justify having spent $3,400 of their funds on this ad, whether it was based on a statement that is open to interpretation, or worse, just to settle a score.
posted by orthomom at 8:15 PM
97 Comments:
I know someone who was there, and it seems that the shiur dealt with (at least in part) the concept of safek pikuach nefesh as a heter for chuilul shabbos. The basic theme was that things that are not viewed as possibly life threatening emergencies during the week (a headache, ingrown toenail, cut finger, etc.) are not safek pikuach nefesh, and are not a reason to call Hatzalah on shabbos. Rather one should find a local doctor (there ar B"H many in the community) and get their opinion - because there is almost no chance that it is a sakanah in any case.
The Rav then went on to how Hatzalah members should conduct themselves on shabbos, applying the same standard (non-emergencies during the week do not suddenly become emergencies on Shabbos). Examples of things not to do included things such as moving your car to be closer to your house or fixing a flat on shabbos in case you have to respond to a call - since you wouldn't feel that lives were being put in danger during the week by having your car a few blocks away or being out of commision, its not grounds for chilul shabbos either (this was the gist anyhow, actual examples may have varied somewhat). This is particularly true as individual Hatzalah members are not required to respond to a given call anyhow.
Also, the Rav was worried from beforehand that his statements in the shiur would be twisted (as they have been) and asked at least one person (a prominent doctor within Hatzalah - although not Rockaway/Lawrence) to attend the shiur. That doctor made a (futile) effort to head off the public response and tell people within Hatzalah what was actually said.
A conversation I overheard on Friday made it sound like the local Hatzalah membership is furious, and is pushing for as much action on this as possible - I assume that is where the impetus for this article came from.
I hope this public outburst gets quashed before it gets (more) out of hand, and that Hatzalah does not follow through on its promise in the ad to publish a bunch of letters over the next few weeks.
Separate Note: its possible (likely?) that Hatzalah got a discount/freebie on the ad. There was a note in the top corner of the front page about an important message from Hatzalah inside, so maybe the editor published it as a community service.
Yes, the ad was given for nothing or very little from what I heard. Larry Gordon totally HATES the Rabbi you are talking about. They do NOT get along at all. It is easy to imagone Larry jumping at the chance to single out this Rabbi for criticism. For the record though, I thought the ad was overwrought and not called for. I definitely didn't know about this until I saw the ad, and neither did most people in my shul today, ubtil they saw it. All Hatzalah did was make this a topic of gossip at every shabbos table in the five towns. Which is probably whatthey wanted.
Much of the same here. I didn't know about this until I read the huge spread in the paper. And from what it sounds like, it was blown out of proportion (but then again, that seems to happen with anything that Rabbonim seem to say these days).
Over shabbos, in my shul this week, my Rav made a quick reference to this "issue" and said "I'm on Hatzoloh's side".
Over shabbos, in my shul this week, my Rav made a quick reference to this "issue" and said "I'm on Hatzoloh's side".
I know. But I am not sure that his statement was based on anything more than hearsay from Hatzalah members. Did R' F. hear this directly from the Rav who gave the shiur, or someone who was in attendance? I tend to doubt that. Of course, on the face of it, based on the wording of the ad, it seems like the Rav in question spoke inapropriately by "criticizing" the methods of Hatzalah. However, all it takes is a little digging by speaking by those who were present to ascertain that what he said was not so cut-and-dried, and seemingly not quite offensive enough to warrant the ad.
Not living in the 5 Towns area, but knowing a bit about placing ads in Jewish papers and being intimate with Hatzoloh for many, man years.
First of all, most Jewish papers dont charge their listed rates to non-profits, if tou annyone at all.
Secondly, Hatzoloh's mission to be Maykil on Hilchos Shabbos, but to Machmir of Pikuach Nefesh. Yes, there are times that people call Hatzoloh on Shabbos, or during the week for injuries that don't require an ambulance or any trained personal at whatsoever. but that is for a proffesional to determine, just as the Doctor would. Butu how long doe sit take to find a Doctor that can tell you if those chest pains are from eth cholent, or a real Heart Attach. I'd rather not hang around waiting to find out. The Halacha is clear, a Sufak of Pikach Nefesh, not only allows, but in fact demands, that all should be done for the patient, regardless of Shabbos, until it is determained that he/she is not in any danger.
On a related note, a new publication, "Community Links" has arrived in various neighborhoods, with an 'ad' on the inside back cover, designed to help people determine if there is reason to be 'Mechalal Shabbos' for a Coleh. Listen to this: A "Choleh Kol Gufo" is one that includes "Broken bones, fevers, open wounds (especially on the head), possible poisening, burns, electric shocks, physical trauma, infant diarrhea, dehydradtion, etc."
Now, it further states a for a "Choleh Kol Gufo", that "if the treatment require a "Melacha D'Oraisa" the treatment may only be preformed by a Non-Jew. If the treatment requires a Melacha D'Rabbanan, it must be done either with a shinuy, or by a non-Jew"
Now tell me, possible poisening & open head wounds, don't warrent driving a car, or better yet, an ambulance on Shabbos???
I'm as frum as the next guy, but why do some people (read Rabbis) insist on saying stupid things, that may get people really hurt?
Butu how long doe sit take to find a Doctor that can tell you if those chest pains are from eth cholent, or a real Heart Attach. I'd rather not hang around waiting to find out. The Halacha is clear, a Sufak of Pikach Nefesh, not only allows, but in fact demands, that all should be done for the patient, regardless of Shabbos, until it is determained that he/she is not in any danger.
As I noted above, the Rav was talking about a case such as a cut finger. I don't think chest pains are part of the discussion here.
OM –I’d like to put this whole issue into perspective…
1) The local Five Towns Rockaway (FTR) Hatzolah is as incredible as ANY local community Hatzolah; being there when you need them, saving lives, resolving medical crises, and getting help to people who need help -- immediately. (NOTE: A team of gracious and professional Hatzolah volunteers responded with split second timing to rush my daughter to the hospital last spring, after she sustained a serious injury falling for a backyard swing set. They have and deserve my eternal gratitude and support).
2) Some of the local Five Towns Rockaway (FTR) Hatzolah leadership and likely some of its members, just like individual members of ANY emergency medical volunteer organization, tend to permit themselves a bit of self-pity, defeatism, and martyrdom, believing that although they’re saving lives day in and day out, everyone takes them for granted.
3) Such psychosis is most likely significantly positively correlated to any person with a natural tendency to risk life and limb for others. It may just be part of the personality and shouldn't be held against the individual members and leadership if they fight back against a community leader who levels charges that might endanger Hatzolah’s mode of operation.
4) Though local rabbis are free to say what they want to whomever he or she wants, it would be nice if everyone with such power would remember the responsibility this demands. By leading individuals to second-guess their own judgment before calling Hatzolah, then such a rabbi is precipitating a slippery slope that might lead to someone to second-guess before placing that call in a REAL emergency.
6) To prevent the chest-pain victims from second-guessing, Hatzolah leaders and responsible poskim understand that putting up with the ingrown toenails and headaches IS PART OF THE PROCESS OF SAVING LIVES.
Bottom Line:
A) The FTR Hatzolah probably is overreacting and placing their gratuitously pitiful 2-page ad was likely overkill. But that's the personality. It comes with the territory.
B) Any rabbi who is making comments about Chillul Shabbos, in the case of "Less than life threatening" Hatzolah calls, is ultimately endangering the lives of people who, as a result, might think twice before picking up the phone when it really matters.
I know nothing about FT politics but I too am on Hatzolah's side. I know one of the founders of the original Hatzolah and he tells the following story.
Originally, on Shabbat, ambulance drivers walked back home from the hospital on Shabbos because there was no longer a life threatening emergency. From one part of Brooklyn, the closest hospital was in Manhattan so walking back to Brooklyn on Shabbos presented problems. They went to Rav Moshe to get a psak on what to do. He responded that in all cases, the drivers not only were allowed to drive back home on Shabbos but required to. Because otherwise, they might find the sacrafice daunting and delay responding the next time they were needed on Shabbos and pekuach nefesh was totally overiding.
I also remind you of the Rambam that if someone feels they need to eat on Yom Kippur because of what they think is life threatening illness, we let them eat.
The moral of course is that we must lean over backwards in these cases. I find it difficult to imagine a situation where it would be appropriate for a Rabbi to give a shuir even like the mildest version of the one reported here. If you also say that he may have been motivated by bad blood all the more so.
It may be that the Hatzaleh response was overwrought but the principle that people should NEVER be discouraged from calling if they feel the need is to important. True, there may be some trivial cases where one might find some Mechallel Shabbos took place but if there is even one case where someone failed to call when they should have...
So I think this time Orthomom didn't show her usual sechel.
So I think this time Orthomom didn't show her usual sechel.
That is obviously your opinion, however, I disagree. There are all sorts of Halachot which pertain to the calling for medical help on Shabbos. There are parameters, whether the Choleh is one that is serious (pretty much anything that has the slightest risk if being life-threatening, and anything that there is the slightest doubt of), or something such as a cut finger. Now, it is very nice that Hatzalah is always available for things such as cuts on fingers, but isn't there a distinction between that hapening during the week and on shabbos? I am not sure if you are aware of how a Hatzalah call is dispatched, but generally, three members are sent to a call. I can't begin to imagine why a Rabbi advising his congregants to think about calling a doctor before they call Hatzalah for something as minor as a cut finger is somehow worthy of this overwrought response on your part. I simply don't think that the Rabbi's words are causing any sort of situation where people will hesitate in the future to call Hatzalah over a serious matter.
If he were to have used another example, perhaps you would be correct. But a cut on a finger is about as clear an example of an innocuous medical emergency as they come.
come on, people. Give your friends and neighbors some credit for having some common sense.
I think that there might be another reason that Hatzoloh had the reaction they did. An unfortunate phenomenon in the Orthodox Jewish world is what we call in our house the "Chumra wars". As soon as one part of the Orthodox community takes on a chumra, there is an immediate feeling of competition, and things get out of hand....
Perhaps they want to nip this in the bud before it becomes "treif" to call Hatzoloh - which would be tragic if someone truly endangers their life out of fear of not being "frum enough".
Let's be real people. The local Rov was saying that people should use judgement with regard to calling Hatzoloh on Shabbos with regard to MINOR emergencies. being a choleh is not a license for wholesale disregard of Hilchos Shabbos. That is the balance the many of you are ignoring. If a Rov wants to instruct his congregants to be judicious in such a way as to safeguard the sanctity of shabbos why should anyone have a problem with that?
Is it reasonable to take a local shul issue and make it an issue for the entire Five Towns and Far Rockaway? Couldn't this have been resolved quietly with a letter to the local Rov in question? that is the real problem here. Loshon Hora was clearly on the lips of every Jew in the whole community this shabbos. Maybe hatzoloh should be machmir with regard to hilchos rechilus hora and not just pikuach nefesh
To Jewish 501c3: Is it wrong to ask the people calling Hatzalah to exercise a small amount of common sense? Or does any health care related matter automatically allow chilul shabbos - aren't there some guidelines at least? If there are other halachic opinions than what this Rav said about when it is proper to call Hatzalah on Shabbos - then let Hatzalah publish them - don't create a strawman to beat up on and avoid the actual issue.
A separate but related note: Hatzalah is an ambulance service, and their job is to take people to the hospital, and if necessary stabilize them on the way there. They are not authorized or qualified (not being doctors) to make diagnoses and recommend treatments. So people should not be calling Hatzalah for minor problems, when they want reassurance that it's not anything major (such as a headache or a mother worried about their child's fever). Many people see Hatzalah as a general community medical care provider (and there are Hatzalah members who will act as such) but the fact is that they are not medical professionals and should not be making medical decisions about whether something is a danger or not.
it is well known that the leader of FTR Hatzoloh is engaged in a longtime feud with this local rov. The open letter is totally vindictive and nothing but an ego trip on the part of that Hatzoloh leader.
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I've already weighed in with my opinion here but after viewing the comments, it just strikes me as being really funny... in that when a Rav speaks out about things like talking during davening or other things that you aren't allowed to do, people just end up doing what they want anyway. And when a Rav speaks out about things like this or nannys, people go nuts. At the end of the day, doesn't everyone just make their own decisions on what's best for them?
I don't think that what a Rav says (especially not if it's my Rav) is going to cause a different in how I react in an emergency situation.
I was considering what you wrote about using Tzedaka money for this ad. So I went to look up the information on the local RL Hatzalah and I could not find a charity listed for either Far Rockaway or Lawrence under that name (or any of the Hatzoloh, Hatzalah, Hatzolah formulations) to look up their 990 reports. Does anyone know how they are listed? It is very suspicious to not be listed on guidestar.
I happen to be acquainted with Mr. Gordon and I can add two things to the discussion. One is that the ads were indeed paid for in advance not at the rate card rate but pretty close to it. And, second, Mr. Gordon and Rabbi Reisman----the Rabbi in question---have a very good working relationship and are both cordial and appreciative of their different roles in our community. Additionally I know that Mr. Gordon's concern was that ---as the ad states---no one G-d forbid---dies unnecessarily because of this difference of opinion. To me it seems that the 5 Towns Jewish Times is only a vehicle for responsible organizations and others to promote themselves and their projects in a healthy and productive environment. Why does the paper or its editor have to have an agenda or an opinion to publish an ad. If the paper runs an ad for sushi at a restaurant does that mean that Mr. Gordon must like sushi? I don't think so.
"It is very suspicious to not be listed on guidestar."
It's not suspicious at all for an organization to NOT be listed on guidestar.org. Perhaps you're referencing the wrong corporation name, or perhaps FTR is exempt from filing. Not every 501c3 is required to file.
Also, I hope in the future you'll try hard to phrase questions or statements about organizations in a manner that does not imply wrongdoing. You may be trying to make a justifiable point, but we should all be very careful to not imply wrongdoing when there is almost definitely none.
jewish 501c3 when you find any listing anywhere of the cahrity in question let me know. came up empty on Lexis- Nexis as well. Why aren't they listed under their name like the rest of the neighborhoods? Maybe they don't want anyone to know about their financial situation?
I noticed on the TOP of the letterhead of RL Hatzoloh the name of Shaya L. Wolcowitz. I beleive that he lives in Boro Park (that's in Brooklyn). Why is an ousider running the local Hatzoloh organization? What's the argument to be made for that?
"jewish 501c3 when you find any listing anywhere of the cahrity in question let me know. came up empty on Lexis- Nexis as well. Why aren't they listed under their name like the rest of the neighborhoods? Maybe they don't want anyone to know about their financial situation?"
Perhaps you're trying to put an expensive law degree to good use, but think about what you're implying and the possible deficiencies in your research methods before suggesting financial improprieties. It's not fair and highly unethical.
inconsistent italicizing
Oh, the humanity!
"self-serving arrogant windbag"
Oh, the stupidity!
Even if a charity is not required to file a 990 or is exempt it will still be listed on guidestar. Why is RL Hatzalah not listed with all the others? it is at the very least intriguing.
"Even if a charity is not required to file a 990 or is exempt it will still be listed on guidestar."
Again, not necessarily. And besides, if you sincerely care, then instead of putting that question out there and then just leaving it hanging, and in doing so casting all types of aspersions, why not call RL Hatzolah and find out? Let us know what you find out.
If the community leaders of Five Towns uses their position(s) wisely, they would drag the leaders of Hatzolah and the Rabbi into a closed-door meeting and resolve this issue.
I dare say that when the whole situation is examined calmly and rationaly, they may find that basically they are on common ground.
As a member of Hatzolah in Rockland, I applaud any Rabbi who tells his Shul to stop the abuse of Hatzoloh when they call us for stupidity. On the other hand, the coordinators of Hatzolah are obligated to qualify and clarify the statements that may have been twisted out of context by those looking to drive a wedge between Hatzoloh and the community.
Let them work it out and we may find that there is no controversy from the beggining.
'monseyemt'
i spoke to a neighbor of mine who is in hatzalah in far rockaway and he made me aware of a story that happened a few weeks ago that might change your opinion of this holy holy "rabbi" : Saturday night(motzei shabbos) right after the zman there was a hatzalah call in far rockaway for a patient unable to speak. When the hatzalah EMT asked them when it started that the patient was unable to talk the response was "this morning but the rabbi said that its not pikuach nefesh if the only problem is that the patient can't talk". THAT SAME PATIENT DIED SUNDAY AFTERNOON FROM A STROKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. Their "rabbi" is that same one that everyone is talking about!
After hearing that story i personally offered to pay for that ad and any other ones that they would like to put in the future.
As someone frequently involved in pikuach nefesh situations (security and medical), nothing annoys me more than being challenged on my actions on shabbat.
While I have no clue or opinion on what goes on in Hatzalah 5T -- when I've been accused of Chilul Shabbat for driving on shabbat under extreme circumstances (read: incoming terrorist threat) it makes you wonder what reality these people live in.
I guess these people don't get innoculations for their children either on grounds that "we have bitachon" so everything will work out fine.
so "Who is Ortho" found the listing for the ROCKAWAY VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE & RESCUE SQUAD also known as Rockaway Rescue or the Rock. Great job. too bad that organization has nothing to with Hatzalah. Aren't you bothered that they don't make their financial info public? As a donor, I am.
The story cited above is not true. It has been made up to suit the needs of the local Hatzalah in their war with the Rabbi
To the Anonymoron who keeps pushing this issue without any seeming interest in uncoverinf facts before slinging mud... You say:
"Great job. too bad that organization has nothing to with Hatzalah. Aren't you bothered that they don't make their financial info public? As a donor, I am."
Since you're so offended and perturbed, I recommend you call 911 the next time you need emergency assistance. I'm sure the county's financial records are an open-enough book to ease your troubled soul.
The story about the stroke is TRUE and hopefully over the next few days the family will have the courage to make it public, but unfortunatly the family is the only one that can make it public.
I wish them the courage they need to stand up and do what is right, even against this "rabbi"
You know, Orthomom. I live way out her in Portland Oregon, and I never would have know anything about any of this if you did'nt publish it on your blog. It's a little hypocritical to mention them spread Loshon Hara when you are, although not meaning to im sure, doing just the same thing. I uderstand your need to express your views, which is fine, but remember that your blog also acts as way to info people about the various scandels. A lot of things I never would have nown about if not for your blog, and to be honest I do think less of east coast jews because of it. Oftentimes, instead of being a voice of reason, you might become another voice for Lashon Hara to spread through. As I said ebfore, I learn most of the dirt through blogs like yours.
You know, Orthomom. I live way out her in Portland Oregon, and I never would have know anything about any of this if you did'nt publish it on your blog. It's a little hypocritical to mention them spread Loshon Hara when you are, although not meaning to im sure, doing just the same thing.
Portlander, sorry, but I have no regrets for reposting an ad that was first published in a paper read by many thousands. I don't find that to be hypocritical. Sorry you do.
The real problem at hand is this attempt at a rabbi who completly has no respect for anyone but himself which is so evident when he says I fixed the eruv I fixed the Mikveh I fixed the Vaad and I will fix Hatzalah this rav has publicly called our dedicated Hatzalah Volunteers {who will do whatever it takes in a medical emergency to make the Pt as comfterable as possible }Michalelai Shabbos numerous amount of times all because He has no say Because Hatzalah has a Very dedicated Rav who gives shuirim on a regular basis on all the relevant Halachos.This attempt at a rabbi has never privatley gone to Hatzalah's Posek and discussed any halachic issue behind closed doors but rather every time he has something to say he publicly gets up and tries to mock our dedicated volunteers and their posek.But when it comes to a person trying to convince people not to call for help is ludacris.People feel funny calling when they have a emergency dont make them think twice.And thats why I think the leadership of Hatzalah put the ad in to try to erase what that Attempt at a Rabbi said which was not to call but walk to a Dr to ask if its pikuach nefesh.This person must be stopped Before another life is lost Chas Vesholom{Stroke Pt who died because they were afraid to call Because of that Rabbi}In my personal opinion The leadership of Hatzalah should have embarassed this person everytime he mocks our Dedicated Hatzalah Volunteers.
Rockaway Hatzoloh is not found on Guidestar. that is a problem. this has nothing to do with 911. I will still call Hatzoloh and give them $$$ but I do care that they spend that money inappropriately like these types of advertisements.
Let's think rationally. Should Hatzalah spend
a. $3000 on attack ads
b. $3000 on an AED
If you answered "b" then you should be angry about this episode
Its worth it to spend money on such a important public saftey announcement to correct what Reisman said the ad is instructing the community to ignore that stupid thing Reisman said and if you have a emergency call hatzolah at once.If the ad saves a life this way how is it different than a AED and another thing is hatzolah really did not ask you how they should spend the money.
I live in the FT, and would like to weigh in on several points.
Now that names were already mentioned, Rav Reisman is the Rov of one of the largest shuls in the neighbor hood. During the winter months, he speaks Friday night in halacha. He always re-iterates " I AM TALKING TO MY MISPALLELIM, AND I AM NOT MAKING BLANKET STATEMENTS.
There were members of hatzolah present when he supposedly made the remarks attributed to him. I personally asked the hatzolah members in attendance, and NOT ONE OF THEM TOOK HIS REMARKS AS STATED IN THE AD.
Let us please look at some of the statements already made on this board.
Eiruv - Since Rabbi Reisman moved into the neighborhood, the Eiruv amd trmendous strides. Together with R' Moshe Dov Stein z'tl and others, our Eiruv is L'shem u L'tiferes. it is studied by many Chaburos in Lakewood as an example of an Eiruv L'mehadrin.
Kashrus - R' Reisman's cajoling, nudging, and talking has improved the Kashrus standards in the FT immensely.
Mikvah - yes R' Reisman has improved the Mikveh standards.
Here is a man, who constantly strives in helping his mispallelim better themselves. There is nothing wrong with that. We are always supposed to better ourselves.
Larry Gordon - is a newshound, and will publish anything, any time, if it will sell papers. I think the only thing Larry Gordon has against R' Reisman is, R' Reisman won't dignify his drivel with a response.
Hatzolah - unfortunately, in this wonderful organization, there are people who's egos have gotten the better of them. Just becaue they are able to give of themsleves, and save lives, does not make them UBERMENSCHEN. Sometimes the arrogance and
disdain for others not in Hatzolah just drips from these people. Now imagine if these people are "Co-ordinators". So they are in psoition to make decisions that affects the entire organization, or neighborhood, BASED ON THEIR OWN FEELINGS.
Having said this, if the people that put the ad in the FT times, felt this way, they should have used their own money AND PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS, and not used Momon Hekdaish. I give money to hatzolah to spend on savings lives, not on pure hate.
sorry, I got to agree with portlander. Who cares if thousands of people already saw it, if you tell one more person it's still lashon hara. I also learn about new scandels in the UO world jsut by comming to you and a few other blogs. You have to admit, you do help to spread around the dirt.
Recurring theme on this blog:
Commenter: "Ortho-mom, you might want to consider that you are responsible for spreading Loshon Hora."
Orthomom: "Well, I feel comfortable doing this, so therefore it is okay."
Funny how your posts are typically well-thought-out and logical, yet your justification for blogging this boils down to a circular argument without a logical and/or halachik justification. In other words, yes, this was communicated to thousands, but is it permitted to spread this and other tales to many thousands more?
Just wondering if you can further explicate your reasoning here....
Right on Dog, Im so sick of these so called "orthodox sites" Who do nothing it seems but moan about every probelm they find in the Jewish world. Seriously, If I got all my info from places like this, I'd hate the orthodox as much as most Jews do. How can people be relgious, but think it's fine to bad mouth things all over the internet for the world to see. We are just give out info for the anti-semites.
We need a Lashon Hara police to go around these blogs.
"Just wondering if you can further explicate your reasoning here...."
Explicate = an overly pretentious way of saying "explain"
still wonderin' = missing the forest for the tress, in a pretentious way himself.... :)
er, trees...
Thank Hasem somebody finally came right out and said this. It is horrible how all these so-called "Frum Blogs" seem to do nothing but rip on the charadie community. With friends like these........
Um...guys? Something I think you may or may not understand about my blog? It's, um...mine? So you may not like when I tell you what I do and don't feel comfortable with? But I get to do exactly what I want? Cuz...it's my blog?
Look. I can understand being super machmir on shemiras haloshen issues. But if you are, then I guess my question is:
WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING READING BLOGS?!?!?!?
Shouldn't a similar question be put to the blogger:
Have you determined (other than through a personal heter) that what you are doing is not LH?
The blogger can either answer the question or respond that it is none of our business. OM seems to be taking the second approach. I assume, Krum, that this is your position as well? Or do you acknowledge that much of blogging involves LH?
True, it's your blog, and you CAN say whatever you want. That does'nt mean that you SHOULD say whatever you want.This is the trouble with the internet. It lets us say whatever we want without fear, and sometimes a little fear keeps us in line. The key is, think about if a nonejew read this, would this bring kavod or scrone on kal yisraol? Also, as Jews we are required to watch out for one another, which includes trying to stop one jew from speaking badly about another.
Have you determined (other than through a personal heter) that what you are doing is not LH?
The notion that publiciz1ing something that is already public (keep in minf that the ad was both in the printed paper circulated extensively throughout the neighborhood and at the papers website), is not LH is hardly controversial.
In all seriousness, can you provide a Halachik source for your "hardly controversial" statement that it is not LH to republicize (or publicize to a wider audience) something that is LH?
This is absurd. No one here posted rumor and innuendo. An organization with a healthy amount of Halachic guidance dictating their every move (as they pointed out exhaustively in their ad), found fit to publish the ad. If it was cleared by their halachic leaders as not falling within the parameters of LH, then it sure as heck is good enough for me.
Zing. Good one OM. I agree, FWIW. This discussion is ridiculous.
WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING READING BLOGS?!?!?!?
-I don't know about about other people, but I only try top read kosher blogs, although these days it's hard to tell when even a good looking blog can hide all sorts of anger. Blogs can be fine, it's just the ones that complain (and P.S., never seem to offer soltuions) and seem to do nothing but spread around the latest gossip.
OOOOOOh, Orthomom can dish out the complaints, but she can't take them.
If it was cleared by their halachic leaders as not falling within the parameters of LH, then it sure as heck is good enough for me.
True enough, but reading your blog, I never would have known all the messy details.
"Another point is that I'd like to make is that I live nowhere near where this Rabbi gave the shiur. I would have never known a blessed thing about this little incident, and I strongly suspect neither would the vast majority of the 5 Towns, had this not been called to my attention in a ginormously massive ad in the local paper."
Not to cry hypocrisy, but it looks like you are doing the very thing you argued against. I agree with you, if this had not be published, most people would have known about it. However, in stating why it should not have been spread, you ended up spreading it more. I love the smell of irony in morning.
but I only try top read kosher blogs,
I don't see anywhere on this blog that it claims to be kosher.
Blogs can be fine, it's just the ones that complain (and P.S., never seem to offer soltuions)
Um...sound like someone you know?
and seem to do nothing but spread around the latest gossip.
Again, if you think that conversations like this are all about gossip, you are really off base.
I don't know what your beef is with the Hatzalah issue, that brought you out of the woodwork like this, on a topic that is clearly not about gossip, but if your constitution for any idle chatter is as weak as it seems, I would stay away from the blogosphere altogether. Just a word to the wise.
Why is this generating the response? Well, OM, you said:
"Another point is that I'd like to make is that I live nowhere near where this Rabbi gave the shiur. I would have never known a blessed thing about this little incident."
Your critics are applying the same argument against YOU.
Do you not see the irony?
True enough, but reading your blog, I never would have known all the messy details.
Sigh. Let me go through this again, really sloooowly. Then. Don't. Read. My. Blog.
"THE middle-aged and wealthy bachelor, Sir Peter Teazle, has married the young and comely daughter of a country squire. The fashionable society of which Lady Teazle through through her marriage becomes a part, occupies itself mainly with malicious gossip whose arrows no one, however chaste, can completely escape. By far the most dangerous of these backbiting cliques is the one led by Lady Sneerwell."
It's the plot from the famouse play "A SCHOOL FOR SCANDAL"
Read it, I think you might like it.
Your critics are applying the same argument against YOU.
Do you not see the irony?
Um...no? I am not an organization that spends other people's charitable contributions? I do not claim to be acting under the strict guidelines of a spiritual leader? I am a lowly anonymous blogger? Blogging is free? Anyone spot any other differences between my post and the $3,400 ad I criticize in my post?
This is too funny. OM's blog is not one I go to because I want a "kosher blog experience". If you say that's why you're here, youre lying or deluding yourself. Blogs are platforms for people to express their opinions. They are sometimes controversial, and definitely not always "kosher". Enough with the holier-than-ortho attitude. You shouldn't be here. Run along.
And for the record, I thought this post was a pretty pareve take. If my Rav can get up and discuss this in my sul on Shabbos, OM can mention it too.
I don't see anywhere on this blog that it claims to be kosher
-the title maybe
Um...sound like someone you know?
- You want a solition from me, think before you blog.
but if your constitution for any idle chatter is as weak as it seems
-Have I been rude to you. Only trying to offer another point of view.
I would stay away from the blogosphere altogether
-Don't worry, the first time I blogged was a week ago, and I learned aready that a blog id nothing ut a soapbox for people to go around and preach whatever they want, mostly stuff no one would actully care about in person. It let every joe have visions of grandure.
Anon, you are not making sense. OM was accusing Hatzalah of bad judgment. Not Loshon Hara.
True enough, but reading your blog, I never would have known all the messy details.
We all read blogs even if we know we should not. This or britnay spears really.
We all read blogs even if we know we should not. This or britnay spears really.
Maybe you should try reading some third grade spelling textbooks instead.
Sigh. Let me go through this again, really sloooowly. Then. Don't. Read. My. Blog.
A quick question, if you met me in a shul, would you be rude to each other, why can you do it online?
Nice try.
Yes, you made several arguments, some of which relate to the money aspect of all this (how dare they spend...). However, you ALSO made the point that publicizing this served no purpose
"So what was really the point here? Clearly it was not to protect the reputations of the local Hatzalah volunteers, as they were never seriously harmed by this, even if the organization maintains that the Rabbi said what they claim he did..."
Yet, you then turn around and publicize this again! For apparently no purpose. Of course, we. do. not. have. to. read. your. blog. Unfortunately, you may be causing harm with your keyboard; more than you apparently realize....
"-the title maybe"
As you may or may not have noticed from some interesting comments left by a certain shul chevra today, the prefix "ortho" sometimes means far from "kosher". You should think about that before you click next time. If this nice blog offends your sensibilities, then you really shouldn't pick blogs based on their title alone. The internet is a wild wild place.
Yet, you then turn around and publicize this again! For apparently no purpose.
That's your opinion. Mine, of course, is that there certainly was a purpose. You know, like to set the record straight about what the Rav in question actually said, after he was claimed to have put people's lives in danger in an ad read by thousands. You know, that minor thing.
"you may be causing harm with your keyboard; more than you apparently realize...."
OM, would you stop swinging that keybpard at me?!?
As you may or may not have noticed from some interesting comments left by a certain shul chevra today, the prefix "ortho" sometimes means far from "kosher". You should think about that before you click next time. If this nice blog offends your sensibilities, then you really shouldn't pick blogs based on their title alone. The internet is a wild wild place.
Why add to makeing it wide. Why add to making ortho not mean kosher?
You know, like to set the record straight about what the Rav in question actually said
Ah yes, because if we can't trust what we read on blogs, what can we trust? Would we ever do without News from people who type durring their lunch break? Thank goodness for people without real work to do!
Would we ever do without News from people who type durring their lunch break? Thank goodness for people without real work to do!
Yup, and thank goodness for all my readers without real work to do who make this blog possible!
Anonymous said...
"you may be causing harm with your keyboard; more than you apparently realize...."
OM, would you stop swinging that keybpard at me?!?
LOLOL. Best comment in the thread, hands down.
Yup, and thank goodness for all my readers without real work to do who make this blog possible!
Hey, I have a lot of real work. Im chossing not to do it. Im not usless, im lazy.
They are sometimes controversial, and definitely not always "kosher". Enough with the holier-than-ortho attitude. You shouldn't be here. Run along.
Mayb not holier than thou, but trying to act nicert han nasty comments like that
but if your constitution for any idle chatter is as weak as it seems, I would stay away from the blogosphere altogether. Just a word to the wise.
With your constition for spreading gossip, I would stay away from a shul altogether. Just a word to the wise.
Hey, I have a lot of real work. Im chossing not to do it. Im not usless, im lazy.
LOL. I know all about it.
A few thoughts:
Every 501(c)3 that isn't a shul needs to file a form 990, and Guidestar somehow retrieves every Form 990. This, however, means nothing. FT Hatzolah could be operating under Boro Park or Flatbush -- but if you ask them before donating, they should tell you. It also takes a year or so to show up on Guidestar.
But as a Hatzolah volunteer in training, I find myself somewhat opposed to their reaction here. It is a fact, a FACT, that there are people who make unnecessary Hatzolah calls during the week as well. These calls can cost lives.
If Hatzolah volunteers are putting a band-aid on your kid's finger, they may not be available for the heart attack next door. And also, you will rapidly find a situation where Hatzolah volunteers aren't responding so rapidly to your home the next time. They are human... call them enough times for band-aids, and they'll find some reason why they aren't available to respond to your house yet again, in classic boy-who-cried-wolf fashion. If Ch"V something really serious happens, that person may suffer because you didn't take the volunteers of Hatzolah seriously.
All the Rabbi was asking for was common sense, which isn't so common. He should have called for common sense during the week, as well.
"All the Rabbi was asking for was common sense, which isn't so common. He should have called for common sense during the week, as well."
I am not a member of hatzolah so I believe your opinion is more credible and likely more informed than mine. But wouldn't you agree that it's up to the leadership of Hatzolah and the acknowledged poskim who guide Hatzolah to make a public statement like that? Not unsolicited individuals?
prefix "ortho" sometimes means far from "kosher
For example, she might be an orthodontist?
Of course, with this logic, just because she calls herself mom does not mean she has any children......
I hope that Krum is reading these comments. Krum - THIS is what the FT's is all about and this is why we love it - NOT due to the stupid intelelctualism!!
Still Wondering: A Rav is hardly an unsolicited individual, especially when it comes to the halachic parameters of chilul shabbos.
As far as Unneccesary Hatzalah calls - I know that at least one of the Medical Directors is very upset about this problem - especially since Hatzalah is not supposed to be providing medical care at all, except in the context of stabilization for transport to a hospital emergency room. There is understandably a reluctance on the part of the organization to announce that people shouldn't always call Hatzalah for medical attention - both because sucha call would cause something of a scandal among the large group of Jews who think of Hatzalah as an alternative source of medical care (and not an emergency transport service), and because of the worry that osmeone might not call when they should.
test
In queens hotzolah is OUT OF CONTROL... They race to calls, not even stopping at red lights. Even the other day, a hotzolah kid was in his car behind an old man. The old man was at a red light and the hotzolah kid besides blaring his sirens, pressed his airhorn for the old man to move. The old man moved into the intersection and almost got t-boned...
Hotzolah kids in queens have been parking in bus stops, and at hydrants even when not on call.
I asked a police officer who told me off the record they won't write them because of the political backlash.
Who is policing the hotzolah?? Why should they almost kill people racing to save 1 persons life?
I am not saying this is all of hotzolah queens, just the young kids.
The next time a hotzolah kid is behind me I will not move my car. Let him go into oncoming traffic and get killed!
False advertising:
Hatzalah seems to be their own worst enemies.
They claim to respond to areas they
do not cover for fund raiseing purposes, abuse their lights and siren privlages, and seem to feel they are above the law.
Of course people will start to wonder - and all their GOOD WORK - becomes lost in the controversy.
According to the Nassau county Board of Health - HATZALA is NOT
registered as an EMS provider in the county.
What are they doing blowing through
red lights - disregarding the law -
operating illegaly - and then soliciting funds?
As a summer resident of Long Beach
I recently witnessed a Long Beach Fire Ambulance - sit in the garage WITH A FULL CREW - for a call at a Jewish nurseing home in Atlantic Beach - EVENTUALY Atlantic Beach rescue took the call ( as heard on my scanner ) - WHY WASN'T Hatzalah called - they would have responded without political debates and delays.
Got Cut Off - ABOVE CONTINUED
THATS WHY HATZALA IS BLOWING THROUGH LIGHTS - AND - COLLECTING FUNDS IN NASSAU
Yiden can only count on other Yiden
Call Hatzala - Dont count on the guyim to come rescue you.
As a physician, I found myself as a patient for a life threatening condition that I didn't recognize and treat in a timely fashion. How can Rabbis and Hatzala be more certain about serious conditions of others than I was about myself?
Seemingly minor injuries have a tiny, remote chance of turning serious. A cut finger? Even if it's bleeding profusely there's little risk from loss of blood but there is psychogenic shock. A hysterical patient calling with blood spilling all over goes into shock.
I can't understand how people can accept making life-death decisions for others with such confidence. I never want to be wrong. If someone thinks it's enough to call me, I go. It's their call. It's their life, their body. Not mine.
I delayed my own treatment until it became life threatening but I won't take a chance for someone else.
What would others decide if the consequences for mistakes were more than just saying, "Sorry, guess I was wrong."
Anonymous said...
Yiden can only count on other Yiden
Call Hatzala - Dont count on the guyim to come rescue you.
Maybe he's wrong about some Yiden. Wrong about some Rabbis.
"you may be causing harm with your keyboard; more than you apparently realize...." OM, would you stop swinging that keybpard at me?!?
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