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Tuesday, May 16, 2006

A Hard Post To Write

It has become impossible to ignore the lastest round of accusations of Rabbinic abuse in Yeshivas. I found it difficult to take seriously the anonoblogger who had been covering this story up until now - it's hard to get past the obvious personal agenda and manic rantings that he espoused, whether or not the story was true - but now that there is a lawsuit filed, and a detailed mainstream media story out there that quotes a victim under his real name, it's time to comment.

This story makes me ill on so many levels. The ones most obviously hurt by this are the direct victims of this horrible alleged crime, both past, and God forbid, future. Every new child that is put into danger by leaving a known or suspected pedophile in a position to strike again is being failed by anyone who is at all aware of any accusations, be it their Rabbis, teachers, administrators or the entire community. I cry for these victims.

The question then is, whether there actually exists a concerted effort to cover up these types of crimes in our Yeshivas and communities. And the answer seems to be a clear yes. The incredibly sad part of this mess is that this is not a story line that we're seeing played out for the first time. Ten years ago, there was a similar story of alleged abuse in the Yeshiva system. The allegations were ignored time and time again. The accused was shockingly allowed to remain in a position where he was in constant contact with youths, and was enabled to keep up with his depraved behavior. Any attempts by victims or their advocates to bring up the issue were stonewalled. In the end, the whole sordid mess was played out in the press, in the most public possible manner.

The story here seems to be following the same script. The allegations were ignored, the accused was allowed to remain in contact with defenseless children without a real attempt to uncover the truth, and the story has broken in the mainstream media in a way that has brought nothing but shame upon our community. This shouldn't be. This culture of denial has allowed the pool of victims of this crime to balloon in a way that is completely unecessary and terribly tragic. Does anyone really believe that those with pedophilic tendencies are anything but sick, sick people, who need psychological and/or psychiatric assistance, and most importantly, to be immediately removed from positions that allow them to abuse again? Does anyone really believe that they are doing these perpetrators a favor when they are allowed to remain in these positions to "save face"? That the direct victims of the abuse are being failed in the worst possible way is evident. But how about the families of the accused? Do they benefit from the burying of this story, especially in a case such as this, when the attempted coverup ultimately subjects them - and the whole Orthodox community - to the public embarassment of a mainstream media story?

Do we never learn from our mistakes?

Please keep all comments appropriate.

108 Comments:

Blogger Selena said...

This issue scares me so much. My son is almost 4 and very friendly and open and I am so scared some rebbe or teacher or older boy is going to take advantage of him. And I am so sad that I have to worry about this.

1:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Isn't R. Ginzberg from your community hosting R. Scheinberg? Considering all that is being reported, is that appropriate?

1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can we not convict the rabbi in question until all the facts have been brought to bear? All we have so far are accusations and hearsay. SIW has been the most balanced blogger on this to date. Before the hand-wringing begins it would be nice to get some FACTS on this, don't you think?

http://www.canonist.com/?p=782

1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think part of the reason why schools are not coming forward to report their abusive staff is because the school loses face. Losing face means the school loses its reputation and kids get pulled out. The irony though, is that parents would have MORE respect for a school that comes forward honestly and quickly. Those schools are the safest place for our children.

1:32 PM  
Blogger MUST Gum Addict said...

Is what appropriate? that the community is hosting him? Are you assuming the community voted to have him visit? Are you suggesting that the community at large send him home? What kind of comment is that? It sounds like your real issue is with Rabbi Ginzberg, and I don't what that has to do with the price of rice in China.

OM, I'm sure this post was difficult to write, and in truth, it's difficult to read as well. It's far easier to look away, but then I look at the rest of the world today. I find myself talking to my kids about things my parents never spoke to me about.

Far be it from us to decide who is innocent and who is guilty -- on both civil and Jewish levels -- but everyone loses when there's a Chilul HaShem on such a level, and when the institutions that were meant to protect our children prove otherwise.

1:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I only first read UOJ a day ago when this story hit the press. On your comment about his "obvious personal agenda and manic rantings," what would your response be if you had definitive proof that horrible criminal activity was happening and everyone ignored you? Perhaps you wouldn't have the same reaction as him, but I hope you would display more anger than you direct towards Lawrence school politics.

1:35 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Can we not convict the rabbi in question until all the facts have been brought to bear? All we have so far are accusations and hearsay. SIW has been the most balanced blogger on this to date. Before the hand-wringing begins it would be nice to get some FACTS on this, don't you think?

Well, yes. I'm the first to commend Steven I. Weiss on his coverage, and did so in his comments. That said, he was addressing the NY Magazine coverage in specific in his post. SIW has been rightly handwringing on the larger subject of clergy abuse for a very long time. And that larger subject is what I am addressing here.

1:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are addressing the larger subject of lcergy abuse only because of the New York article.

If the New York article is built on a house of cards, and you recognize that, why are you hand-wringing now?

1:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bravo, OM! Beautiful. This post is the first I have seen that doesnt point fingers or name names, but addresses what has been done wrong and what the ramifications are. I also like the nonjudgemental attitude you use towards the accused. They are definitely sick, and should have bee helped, not enabled.

1:40 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

If the New York article is built on a house of cards, and you recognize that, why are you hand-wringing now?

Because it isn't built on a house of cards. The foundation, the direct account of an victim is very strong. It's where the article goes from there that SIW is critical of. And about the hadwringing? This is my blog. I handwring here.

1:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, this story is based on more than just accusations and hearsay. If you are genuinely interested in helping the victims and helping prevent future abuse in your childrens' schools and camps (and not just fishing for "hock"), there are people to contact. For more specific information you can contact bes1267@yahoo.com.

1:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice post on an awful topic. We need to keep hypervigilant in our children's schools, camps and extracurriculars.

1:51 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

If someone has pedophilic tendencies and ACTS on them, and it can be proven in a court of law, he should be sent to jail. This is not just a sickness, it's a criminal act. If Catholic priests are being sent to jail for such crimes, I don't see why Jewish teachers and rabbis shouldn't also be sent to jail - again, after conviction.

2:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is a link
http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/17010/index.html

2:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If someone has pedophilic tendencies and ACTS on them, and it can be proven in a court of law, he should be sent to jail."

Now, who would disagree with a statement like that? Of course, IF that happens, then the individual should be jailed.

The issue here is, DID the individual in question perpetrate the act. Until that is established, can we stay away from meaningless statements like the one above?

2:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very responsible post AS ALWAYS. I don't think there should be names posted or specifics. However, this subject is an important one that must be adressed. Thank you Orthomom for doing so in a restrained and balanced manner, yet without burying your head (or trying to bury your readers' heads!) in the sand. Shkoyach.

2:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orthomom....It was only a matter of time that this story was going to hit the media. It's funny how come are commenting on what a chilul hashem it is, why? Becuase it's now in the public? What exactly is the chilul here? The fact that a Rebbi in a Yeshiva (probably) molested children? Or now (nebuch) it is in public? Let's all get out priorities straightened out here!! How much can the Rabbonim look away at all the terrible things "heimishe" Jews are doing today before they will do anything!?!?!

2:49 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

How much can the Rabbonim look away at all the terrible things "heimishe" Jews are doing today before they will do anything!?!?!?

You are completely right. But when the act of looking away directly affects potential young victims of abuse, it becomes a pressing issue.

2:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know this is wishful thinking but maybe this will be the wake up call. We have to wait and see how it all plays out. Please keep on top of this story.

2:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

very respectful post

2:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How much can the Rabbonim look away at all the terrible things "heimishe" Jews are doing today before they will do anything!?!?!?

OM: You are completely right.


But nobody has established whether ONE such Jew has acted poorly here, much less that MANY such Jew are doing "many terrible things."

Talk about showing your bias!

3:05 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...


But nobody has established whether ONE such Jew has acted poorly here, much less that MANY such Jew are doing "many terrible things."

Talk about showing your bias!


Um...did you read his comment? He wasn't referring to this case, but of other instances of Orthodox people doing things that perpetuate a Chillul Hashem, and the Rabbanim not commenting on it. I certainly was not referring to the case at hand.

3:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I found it difficult to take seriously the anonoblogger who had been covering this story up until now -"

Are you referring to this particular anon blogger or all anon blogger's with obvious personal agendas. Or is anon blogging OK as long as you create the appearance of fair and balanced?

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon of 3:05....It's hardly bias, and there are too many incidents to list for me to prove my point. However, feel free to take off your blinders.

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Are you referring to this particular anon blogger or all anon blogger's with obvious personal agendas."

Let's be real. The site under discussion is full of the lowest kind of rumor-mongering and mudslinging imaginable. every day countless alleged wrongdoers are identified by name without any evidence. Contrast with this blog, while also anon, couldn't be starker.

3:16 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Are you referring to this particular anon blogger or all anon blogger's with obvious personal agendas. Or is anon blogging OK as long as you create the appearance of fair and balanced?

I find it difficult to use anonobloggers as a source for alleged facts without independent verification. That goes for my blog as well. Most of my posts are my opinions, based on sourced news stories. When they are based on community hearsay, I indicate as such, which certainly takes away from the item's credibility.

I don't consider myself a news source by any stretch of the imagination, and don't think people treat my blog as such.

3:16 PM  
Blogger Orthonomics said...

I am thinking about commenting on the subject at hand soon. But, I'm still torn about the angle I want my future post to take.

I will say that it is high time that we enact some safeguards in our schools and camps. In addition, I think that the problem of secrecy and having no impartial place to turn with concerns like these, is related to the problem that each and every school is so independent, rather than community owned and controlled.

Another good post OM.

3:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey OrthoKrum,

Maybe it's Sweeps Week in blog world and OM needs some extra help!

3:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back in the old days, as I understand it, the non-Jewish authorities allowed each Jewish community to impose taxes on its members, and to impose fines and/or corporal punishment on members who violated halakha (including the halakhot forbidding theft, rape, and so forth).

Now, we don't have that autonomy, but we still have the norm that if someone tells the police about a fellow-frummie's criminal behavior, the informant deserves more opprobrium than the alleged criminal.

We can't have it both ways.

3:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Let's be real. The site under discussion is full of the lowest kind of rumor-mongering and mudslinging imaginable. every day countless alleged wrongdoers are identified by name without any evidence."

Hey Glengary- while you could be right about the blog in question, lets not assume that just because another blog might look nice, use bullet points, separate paragraphs, and links to other blogs as "source material," that suddenly the difference is so stark that the nice looking blog becomes a beacon of journalistic fact-finding virtue. Lets not judge a blog by it "cover." Even orthomom concedes that the onset of a lawsuit has lent credence to the accusations contained in UOJ. Perhaps, some of its other accusations will in the future stand the course of time prove to be true.

3:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I disagree with the notion that the difference between this blog and the blog in question (BIQ) is that this blog "look[s] nice, use[s] bullet points, separate paragraphs, and links to other blogs as 'source material.'" The BIQ peddles in trash and no amount of prettyfying can change that. This contrast IS stark.

3:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Most of my posts are my opinions, based on sourced news stories. When they are based on community hearsay, I indicate as such, which certainly takes away from the item's credibility...I don't consider myself a news source by any stretch of the imagination, and don't think people treat my blog as such."

Whether facts or opinions, anonymity certainly skews the opinions of your readership. I am sure your blog neighbors (and 5 towns neighbors for that matter) will certainly take different views of your opinions and perceptions if they truly knew the source of the opinion. (Beyond being a mother of 4 young children- a most admirable trait).

4:04 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

I am sure your blog neighbors (and 5 towns neighbors for that matter) will certainly take different views of your opinions and perceptions if they truly knew the source of the opinion.

Absolutely. But they know the score coming in. I am an anonymous blogger.

4:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As long as you are content with zero credibility...

4:08 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

As long as you are content with zero credibility...

Again, I am not reporting. My credibility isn't as issue here. People don't read op-eds in certain newspapers because they necessarily have cred as news sources, so much as they read them for a source of opinions. I view my blog as the same.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anti-anon: "As long as you are content with zero credibility..."

I read OM for her opinion on news. She doesn't present herself as a news source, but rather a commentator on such. You are clearly missing the point of this blog.

4:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did you have to go there? Obviously it's a horrible story. Horrible for the victim, his family, the accused rabbi's family (to hell with Margo) and the orthodox world at large. BUT, you posting on this topic is also a travesty.

This post will accomplish nothing, as you are not an insider, and will only cause people to spout things they are in no position to comment.

When you host other people's comments about Gedolim (and no I am not talking about Kolko, Margo or the Cannonist), Gedolim who we are so far removed from, and allow it to go on, you become an accomplice to besmirching Talmidei Chachomim who, to quote R' Eliezer, are Marbim Shalom Ba'Olam


How wrong you are, OrthoKrum. Posts like this accomplish everything. In fact the only reason the Kolko travesty is being exposed after 25 years of intimidation and secrecy is because of posts like this and other blogs that allow people to investigate horrific crimes anonymously without fear of retribution. True, people should be careful before throwing out wild accusations, but the truth in this case will eventually be revealed during the course of the lawsuits when witnesses and victims come forward and tell their stories. As for the gedolim, true gedolim do not have to fear blogs and anonymous posts. No one is beyond reproach -our religion is about revering G-d- not other human beings.

4:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I view my blog as the same."

Its how your readership views your blog...

And by the way, an individual with his/her own computer setting a forum by his/her self for his/her own opinions is not the same as an op-ed writer who has been invited to publish (be it regularly or once)in a credible mainstream news outlet, be it WSJ, NYT, FT, WP or any other publication.

4:33 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...


Its how your readership views your blog...

And by the way, an individual with his/her own computer setting a forum by his/her self for his/her own opinions is not the same as an op-ed writer who has been invited to publish (be it regularly or once)in a credible mainstream news outlet, be it WSJ, NYT, FT, WP or any other publication.



Um...of course! What part of this don't you understand? I am not looking to be viewed as a credible source of news. This post is certainly not breaking news It's my take on the news.

4:38 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

Anonymous said...
"If someone has pedophilic tendencies and ACTS on them, and it can be proven in a court of law, he should be sent to jail."

Now, who would disagree with a statement like that? Of course, IF that happens, then the individual should be jailed.

The issue here is, DID the individual in question perpetrate the act. Until that is established, can we stay away from meaningless statements like the one above?

2:30 PM

Anon of 2:30 PM, I was making a different point. I was responding to OM's statement that "people with pedophilic tendences" are "sick, sick people, who need psychological and/or psychiatric assistance." Even if pedophiles are sick, their actions must be treated as crimes, and punished as crimes. It's not only a matter of keeping them away from children to prevent future abuse.

4:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anti-anon

1. Who says OM wasn't published in "a credible mainstream news outlet"?

2. And even if she wasn't, I feel sorry for you if you base your assessment of an opinion on te august-ness of the publication in which it appears.

As you said, "its how your readership views your blog." And based on this blog's sitemeter, she seems to be doing fine in that regard.

4:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I find hard for you to understand, is just because you have an opinion - er rather a "take on the news" - and a computer, does not make you the same as any old op-ed writer or TV talking head, as you just reminded us. Moreover, since you do it anonymously, you are, and the context of your opinions are, the same as the rest of the anonymous bloggers out there. Not worth the time that I have wasted to explain this to you.

4:43 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...


anti-anon said...

What I find hard for you to understand, is just because you have an opinion - er rather a "take on the news" - and a computer, does not make you the same as any old op-ed writer or TV talking head, as you just reminded us. Moreover, since you do it anonymously, you are, and the context of your opinions are, the same as the rest of the anonymous bloggers out there. Not worth the time that I have wasted to explain this to you.


Sigh. You obviously need some help with reading comprehension. I AGREE WITH YOU. I am an anonoblogger, and have no credibility whatsoever as a news source. I don't claim to. But I object to treating other anonobloggers as news sources as well.

4:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Glad you agree with me. Now I can die in peace.

4:52 PM  
Blogger DovBear said...

it's hard to get past the obvious personal agenda and manic rantings that he espoused,

Personal agenda? You disqualified him because of his personal agenda? The only agenda that mattered, the agenda that was front and center in all of UOJ's posts was this: A predator is on the losse and must be stopped.

That's an agenda that should be supported. The issue wasn't his agenda, or even the fact taht he was anonymous, but that absent names and dates he had no credibility and came across as a ranting lunatic.

[Rest of what you said was true and good, though]

5:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OrthoKrum,

By your standards, the story would never have been broken.

5:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Posts like this.....allow people to investigate??? How so? All Mom did was talk about the story and how terrible it was/is - which it is. (And of course tell us her opinion - what else is new)

I am not worried about how Gedolim would fear or defend themselves from blogs and posts. I was directing my comment at those that lash out at Gedolim, for Mom's sake. And by the way, they are beyond reproach. Not beyond questioning and challenging, but yes, they are beyond reproach.

Apparently you misunderstood the Mishna in Pirkei Avos (1:10) that says U'Sinah es H'Rabanis!!


Simple, OrthoKrum. After the publicity attracted to the issue because of UOJ, victims of Kolko were given a resource through which they could communicate and eventually act. This blog is no different - a forum for people to communicate and join forces to act with increased knowledge and strength - should the need arise - whether on the issue of schoolboard elections, pedophilia, or anything else. It's not the only way to accomplish things, but it's an increasingly effective means. As for the posuk you attempt to quote, is this the one you are referring to?
שמעיה ואבטליון קיבלו מהם שמעיה
אומר אהוב את המלאכה ושנוא את הרבנות ואל תתוודע לרשות
I believe the correct translation is as follows:
Shemayah and Avtalion received the Torah from them. Shemayah said: Love work; despise high positions; and do not become too close to the authorities/government.
Your point, exactly?

5:09 PM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...

why limit the abuse to sexual? how about the rebbe who beat the crap out of you when you didnt know where he was holding in the gemarah. or the verbal abuse cause you didnt understand toisfos. the bottom line is that teachers should be srceened by homeland or hiemishland security before they can be allowed near children.

5:26 PM  
Blogger MUST Gum Addict said...

Orthomom shouldn't post about it (although she didn't actually say anything bad in her post) because of what it can lead to, and it would be on her head.

This reminds me of the T-shirt that says "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people".

5:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OrthoKrum:

I'm truly shocked that you'd joke about a mishnah in pirkei avos. Posting like this and distorting the words of luminaries such as Shmaya and Avtalyon is indeed a travesty and a true lack of respect for our gedolim.

(Just joking)

5:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OrthoK .... I see where you are trying to go with this, but if any of these allegations turn out to be true....what do we say &/or how to we protect the Gedolim?

5:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

orthokrum - if the trial eventually reveals that
R' Scheinberg was involved in the cover up, can we bash him then?

5:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orthokrum:
Only to the extent that we do not close our eyes to obvious truths and, worse, heinous acts, all in the name of giving kovod to gedolim. That's a pretty low standard, don't you think? How does blindly following a rav or "rebbe" help us in any way? An example that comes to mind is those who pay big bucks to whatever hot, new rabbi comes to town for "brochos" that are doled out to the privileged, connected few. That's not kovod - that's the pathetic, superstitious and desperate act of a person with little real connection to frumkeit and torah. We no longer live in the shtetl where only a few were educated and knowledgeable and the rest had to rely unquestioningly on the town sage. Of course we must imbue our children with respect for their rebbeim and roshei yeshiva, but as adults, we know better when we see how most frum institutions simply follow the money trail, and we watch gedolim themselves giving kovod to people of highly questionable virtue, simply because of their perceived net worth. I wish I had your emunas chachamim, but simply living life has eroded whatever blind faith in I once had in most so-called gedolim.

6:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Being a gadol has to involve more than simply being a talmid chacham.
A gadol can do something that lowers his respectablility, and nothing I say or do can affect or prevent that.

6:19 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

So far all we have is that some beat writer for a tabloid told us that someone, possibly Margo, told him that R' Scheinberg told Margo something that may or may not be relevant to Margo's problem.

Wrong, orthokrum. It's not some beat writer, it's two federal complaints. And it's not "someone, possibly Margo, told him that R' Scheinberg told Margo something that may or may not be relevant to Margo's problem," it's "Margo" telling Rabbi Scheinberg "to contact victims and tell them they were not actually abused and have no claim to bring." This is what the complaints say.

6:30 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

"This is what the complaint says" So therefore, who said that Margo told Scheinberg to call the victims and tell them they have no claim?

The plaintiffs, not "some beat writer."

The suit says Margo directed Rabbi Scheinberg to contact. The suit uses that to show Margo's attempt to intimidate the plaintiff. Whether R' Scheinberg did contact the victim is not clear (at least not from the suit).

Well, when you say that someone directed someone else to do something, it is pretty much implicit that the guy actually did it. And, in any event, what would be the point of the allegation if the direction wasn't followed?

My only point is that the source of the Rabbi Scheinberg allegation is the lawsuit, not the article.

6:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What saddens me is that we are all being played for fools. There will be no mention of this in any sort of Yeshivishe medium. The Yated et al will keep going as if nothing happened. The Gedolim are, evidently, Ketanim. When those who are boiling inside from the outrage of these events, stop placing our "leadership" on a pedestal we will be placated. Where is a statment from ANYONE of our leaders? Are they scared to stand up to Margulies? When we expect nothing from them, we can accomplish everything. UOJ is proof.

7:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't mean this in a rude fashion at all---but I am very impressed that you used "we." You, after all, are part of the problem, Orthomom. As you point out in your very first paragraph, *you* ignored early warnings because you judged their source to be non-credible. Essentially, you participated in a "concerted effort to cover up these types of crimes..."

*shrugs*

8:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great post by halachic authority!
I just want to make a point - without naming names (hamevin yavin). There is a 30 year old who was recently arrested after arranging a tryst online with a young boy who turned out to be the police (and allegedly this is not his first misdeed). . . this is a frum guy from a choshav family. There is no excuse for his actions (and yes many molested children turn out fine), however, he says he was molested as a child, and in all probability nobody believed him back then. If the frum community keeps burying their heads in the sand about these issues - IT WONT GO AWAY - the cycle will Chas V'shalom repeat and repeat.
Kudos orthomom on the post - it's not just this particular story its the topic that needs discussion - in every town and every school board.

9:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find this topic utterly frightening . . . but not because of the presence of predators in our community or the larger society! When I hear language like "horrific" and analogies that liken inappropriate behaviors to killing children, I realize that we have become a mob. It doesn't mean we are wrong; it just means that we are no longer using logic and compassion, but are running on unbridled emotion alone.

I wonder what victims of abuse must think when they such discussion? Do they think, "This was a very bad thing that happened to me but from which I can recover," or do they think, "Being molested or assaulted is obviously such a horrible thing that I'll never feel any better." And which attitude is better for their potential recovery from the experience.

I once received what I believe was excellent advice from a Rav on educating children about potential predators: he said, in short, "the Torah does not permit people (who are not married to each other) to touch one another in areas normally covered by your swimsuit. Someone who does this is acting inappropriately, and you must leave his/her presence as soon as possible and tell an adult."

Now, I realize that predators play on the secrecy aspect, etc., but I admire the no-drama, no-fuss way it was presented: This is wrong, it may happen to you, and it's the perpetrator's fault. There's nothing wrong with children learning to turn down unwanted advances -- almost every teenage girl has to learn to do it!

So, yes, we need to make sure such individuals are not placed in positions of trust, but we also need to tone down our hysteria a little. Less hysteria will actually make victims *more* likely to seek help and/or report abuse, and we will avoid creating an environment in which false accusations can flourish.

10:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fox, you nailed it. The issue here is that the blog world (aside from a few reasonable people such as OM and Canonist)has degenerated into the equivalent of a lynch mob so frenzied that the mere mention of any kind of corruption, documented or not, sends them chasing after innocent and guilty alike. This mob is headed by some loud men clothing their identity under white sheets - UOJ and JWB, most notably, but its rank and file are the spiteful anonymous commentors who tar the names of anyone who has a bigger house or more success than they do, as well as the hysterics who see a conspiracy of elders of zion behind every tree.
The llonger this atmosphere persists, the more damage will be done to the reputations of innocents. Next time, UOJ will go after an innocent, and then what will happen?

I vote that people make a concerted effort to not rush to beleive something just because it sounds plausible and some schmuck with a blog said it. A little healthy skepticism can go a long way towards making sure this deosnt become a "denounce your neighbor to the authorities" culture.

10:57 PM  
Blogger Orthonomics said...

I once received what I believe was excellent advice from a Rav on educating children about potential predators: he said, in short, "the Torah does not permit people (who are not married to each other) to touch one another in areas normally covered by your swimsuit. Someone who does this is acting inappropriately, and you must leave his/her presence as soon as possible and tell an adult."

Except for the Torah part, this is the exact thing that is told to every public school student from about the 2nd grade on in the United States.

It is sad that such candid statements are rare enough that they need to be labelled "excellent advice."

11:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fox,

You failed to address what is really the primary benefit of noisemakers like UOJ and JWB. They are the media that brings issues to the forefront - albeit with questionable tactics. We have nobody else! History has proven so. It unfortunately takes the likes of UOJ to uncover somehting as important as this. It was otherwise ignored and had UOJ not launched the attack, the rebbi in TT would have still been there. Don't trivialize sexual abuse of any kind before you put yourself in the impossibly large shoes of a victim.

Gedolim or not, there MUST be a system of checks and balances - especially since a select (and often corrupt) few run the show.

11:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Inquirer and Fox you both make excellent points, however what scares me is the lack of coverage on this matter. Not one word from any Rov/Rosh Yeshiva/Organization. This shows we still need people like UOJ.

11:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But is everyone here comfortable with the numerous innocent people UOJ has accused in the past year? Do we say - hey he did a good job with this one so lets assume he's 100% right about all his accusations? I say, my attitude towards him remains guarded, since his bad at least equals his good.

11:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Um, right. I failed to discuss the benefits or disadvantages of noisemakers. That wasn't really the point of my post. There are obviously occasions when "noisemaking" is required.

I certainly don't intend to trivialize anyone's nesyonos. But why would you insult victims by desribing their shoes as "impossibly large" to fill? As hurtful as it must be to experience disbelief, it must be even more painful to be dismissed permanently as "damaged goods" whose scars are automatically assumed to be so deep as to defy healing.

Being calmly compassionate is a trait of chesed; being horrified by another's experience, no matter how understandable, is an act of cruelty.

11:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This topic has stirred conversations between my children and myself about the state of their own school and teachers. The modern schools are not immune, either. My children go to one of the best known, modern schools in Flatbush and when I questioned my son he told me about a teacher, a 60something year old man, who was never married and fancies himself some sort of "counselor" to the boys. (The school is co-ed, apparently he doesn't think the girls need his help) After giving the students a lengthy, in depth personality survey, he hand picks some of the boys and they have one on one meetings. In these meetings he discusses everything from masturbation to their relationships with girls. Apparently, he gets his jollies from knowing how often they masturbate.

I have called the school and discussed the issue with the powers that be. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, is done.

11:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I got your point - being horrified, according to you, makes a victim feel even more worthless...but, for many victims, the scars never heal. The damage from even "minor" incidents can be colossal.

When this issue is ignored and the victims' pleas fall on deaf ears, THAT is horrifying. When people who have been abused see the disgusting response and the apathy exhibited by the many opponents, ensuring that they will never come forward, THAT is horrifying.

"being horrified by another's experience, no matter how understandable, is" FAR FROM CRUELTY. You clearly don't know anyone who's been sexually abused.

"Calm" methods have fallen on deaf ears. It takes a "shanda" and a threat of $$$ (in the form of grants, donations, tuition, funding, and litigation) to yield any results in this community.

From the stagnant pool of our "leadership" "a good man is hard to find."

12:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's not about UOJ. There is no question Kolko is guilty. Where have all of you been in the last few decades?????

If you don't like the approach, grab the isue from UOJ and do it your own way. Let's rid ourselves of all the molestors and abusers!

Get off your tuchis and do something instead of crticizing someone else's procedure!

12:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

*issue

12:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You clearly don't know anyone who's been sexually abused."

Why? Because it's impossible to disagree with your perspective?Actually, inquirer, I've been employed in the past by an organization that provides services for victims of abuse and/or assault as well as families who've lost children through violent crimes, among other issues.

One of biggest sources of unhappiness they brought up in group and individual therapy: people who find out about their history treat them as freaks of some sort and can never take their experiences in stride. Horror is not support, sympathy, or confidence in another's ability to transcend bad things. It's an emotional response that says, "What happened to you is so awful that I can't think of you as normal."

It's fine to be angry at the perpetrators. It's fine to be angry at figures of authority who condone inappropriate actions through their silence. It's fine to demand changes. Sometimes it's fine to go to fairly strenuous lengths to enact changes. It's *not* fine to stigmatize the subject by using language or analogies that further alienate the victims simply because we think it shows how much we care.

12:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

cross posted to dovbear's comments:


I ask you this: a world of inquiry where there are no checks and balances, where any schmuck's power to defame is as attainable as an anonymous handle, a keyboard and a lot of time on his hands, where nothing but good will stands between innocent people and the ruination of their names - is such a world something you think is a positive place?

I do not question the value in exposing molesters, particularly in this case. I question the lack of safeguards surrounding the methods by which those offenders are prosecuted. If this individual accused had been a muslim and had been tortured to divulge information, you'd be squawking about the evil republicans. So which is it - when bloggers trample on the assumption of innocence until proven guilty it's acceptable, but when the government (especially the bush government) does it its wrong?

A system of safeguards exists in our criminal justice system. No man can be accused or tried without facing his court and accuser. No one can be tried without due process and appropriate counsel. How about in the self-appointed court of the blog world? Is its unmitigated power not frightening to you?

It scares the heck out of me, just as much as the thought of limitless presidental wiretapping ability.

To keep returning the discussion to this individual accused (one that is not in question) is missing the overarching issue this problem raises: are any means justified in bringing people like this to justice? Or are there basic decencies to which, as a civilized society, we MUST adhere both in our quest for truth and our quest for redress?

If your answer is no, I dont see how you can justify not heading into brooklyn at the head of a lynch mob this evening and stringing up the accused subjects of the NY mag article. For that matter, I dont see how you can hold our government to a higher standard of behvaior than you do yourself.

In the interests of intelligent discussion, if you value such, please address my point here, and refrain from returning to the same hackneyed position of "he molested kids, the evil rabbis covered it up, uoj is a hero, yay blogs!" that's been everyone's canard from JWB to UOJ's mindless legion of groupies.

I seek discourse, not mindless rants from small minded people. Like minded thinkers, please respond in kind.

Thank you.

1:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If I hear the word "gedolim" one more time, I will scream. If these so-called "gedolim" knew that a predator was loose among a schoolful of children and they did nothing about it, they're nothing but criminals. Accessories.

Judaism isn't Catholicism- we don't assume that our rabbis have a direct line to God. They are simply men. Just as these "gedolim" are no closer to God than the average man. They might be more learned, but that's the only difference. And if they let children be abused this way, the hell with them. I hoped they're charged as accessories and are publicly shamed for what they did- and didn't do.

2:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FOX,

I don't recall seeing a focus on the "horror" of the crime as a opposed to the "horror" of the scandal of indifference and cover up.

8:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This case is not the only one. There are currently 3 plaintiffs and many more stories. Don't kid yourself. "Drugged up" in 7th grade? I don't think so. "Drugged up" perhaps after the incident - could be.

9:45 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...


so ortho dont go off the deep end how it is ignored, unless your behind the investigations in all these cases we just dont know if they are being ignored, or simply dismissed b/c it is a lie.


Listen, I am the first to need evidence before someone is tarred. But Rebbe, you are wrong about the denial that goes on in our community. It does.

9:52 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...


check out the blog angrysoul i knew who this kid was and who the accused is i was in camp with them.


I will not comment on your protestations of this case being wrong. That is not the point of this post. I do, however, object to your unbelievable hypocrisy here in running to discredit the accuser, and trying to send my readers to a blog where they can join you in doing so.

Before you give me two thumbs down for bringing this subject up, examine your own twisted motives. Ridiculous.

10:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rebbe,

It has not been denied by the TT camp. My inside sources in the Agudah as well as a CLOSE RELATIVE of [the accused} confirm what many in this community have known for YEARS.



EDITED BY SITEOWNER TO REMOVE NAMES. Please, guys, I know the names are everywhere, but not here.

10:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speak with the attorney handling the case. There are several important cases of more recent victims (as young as 19!) that are scared sh**less to come forward.

Don't be so naive. I know someone who was RAPED by a rebbi of his around 15 years ago. The rebbi has not even been accused

10:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All I am asking is that you conduct your own investigations, if possible.

10:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>rebba shlita said...

orthokrum,
amen! said beutifully.


Except that youre ready to trash the courageous accuser as being a liar and a druggie. "Rebbe Shlita", you are a hipocrite and an enabler.

11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't want to be misunderstood here.

This runs too deep for anyone who hasn't experienced it can ever know. And if it's true (and I believe it is) {the accused} should be strung up by his @!*#.

[Name redacted] should be fed to the lions (along with [name redactede] for that matter) for MANY MANY reasons.

But don't put on your white hoods yet. You want to lynch [the accused] before he's convicted that's bad enough, but don't go lynching the beards, who are further steps away from guilt/proven guilt.

EDITED BY SITEOWNER. (PLEASE, NO NAMES OF ACCUSED HERE. THERE ARE PLENTY OF FORUMS FOR THAT)

11:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orthokrum:
A "posek hador" has to be in touch with the "dor." Failing to address what has become the very public nature of the Rav's purported p'sak is inviting judgment in the public forum, whether you approve of it or not.

12:37 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Rebbe, this is what I am talking about:


rebba shlita said...

the latest story that was published happened years ago. i was speaking to someone in this persons class and he had the same rebbi, he said firstly this rebbe never would do this and most importantly said the kid was known to be "high" and a chip on his shoulder out to get anyone he could.


All I can say is UGH.

12:42 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

rebba shlita said...

momof4
All I can say is UGH
your to funny, i never said hes a liar, and could it have happened,yes, but your missing the point, just b/c someone says somthing it doesn't mean its true.
S.S was acussed of stealing from certain funds of the american jewish congress, does that mean its true. no.so i dont understand your UGH!,


Huh? Let me explain it to you clearly. If you would like to simply say that we shouldn't presume someone is guilty, I will absolutely agree with that. I refused to name the accused, and made it very clear in my post that the crimes right now are simply alleged.

But that is not what you did. You didn't just caution the benefit of the doubt. You hypocritically pointed fingers at the accuser for alleged drug abuse and lying about his claims! How are you following your own advice here?

That's what I meant by UGH.

1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

rebbe shlita just apologize for saying the kid who was molested was a druggie.

1:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree that the lay leaders are reproachable, and should issue a statement or something. I just question the practical viability there.

Huh? Do you or don't you agree?

2:09 PM  
Blogger eem said...

New to this so I'm gonna just give all my opinions at once in no specific order...
Rebba-What? I'm sorry but I don't see any consistency or logic in the things you're saying. Proving that hearsay is not true based on other hearsay? Excuse me if I have to skip that.

Lashon Hara is lashon hara, period. Whether it's about a posek hador or a "hedyot". All of klal yisrael are called Hashem's children, and we can't spread LH about any of them. True statements
included. Any person of any stature.
Showing horror is different than making someone feel like a freak. To show a victim that you are horrified that someone could do such a thing can make that person feel cared for and protected, something someone in such a situation needs more than anything. But I'm with fox;to blow something way out of proportion consistently just because it makes us feel like we're accomplishing something by making a fuss accomplishes nothing except for making victims feel like they can never be normal again. And that it a crime which, if not as objectively cruel as the abuse, is thoughtless and just as damaging.
Sefardilady-the truth is, our society is different, and sexuality isn't something we speak openly most of the time- I think we keep it precious that way. So to be able to articulate advice to young children on such a delicate topic clearly and openly on the one hand, and with sensitivity to its private nature on the other, is an accomplishment. If we could all get that balance, then talking about abuse that goes on in our community wouldn't be so hard.

2:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At least this blog brought a smile to the faces of Seinfeld fans everywhere. I heard UOJ is a huge Seinfeld fan.

3:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Halachic, I think OrthoKrum finally stopped.

3:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Lou":

You impostor. Learn to spell!!

3:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay -- I'm going out on a limb here, but I have what I believe to be a legitimate question.

My question is whether parents adequately listen and interpret the spoken and unspoken messages of victims. Let me be more specific: in not all, but most cases, victims communicate a desire to avoid contact with the abuser.

Some individuals are able to say, "So-and-so makes me uncomfortable." Others may use secondary means to avoid contact. Every parenting and women's magazine in the last two decades has run multiple articles on how to spot signs of abuse. Maybe we are doing a bad job of disseminating this information to parents in our community if literally *no one* believes the victim.

For example, I had an employee several years ago who came to me privately and told me her immediate supervisor made her uncomfortable with some of his comments. After a low-key investigation that revealed to me that the supervisor was likely a jerk and the employee may have been oversensitive, I reassigned her as soon as it was feasible. Even though nothing could be proven, I felt this was a bad scene just waiting to happen.

Would I be less vigilant with my kids? No way! If my kids expressed discomfort *or* I felt uneasy with what they were telling (or not telling) me, I'd vote with my feet and get them out of the situation before I worried who was culpable.

Don't misunderstand: I'm not trying to get anyone "off the hook" who should have taken action. But I'd much rather we do what's necessary to deprive predators of easy pickings rather than parcel out the blame after the fact.

In fact, there's entire genre of "how not to be a victim" research and writing would be beneficial to everyone. Now, if any of those of us who've found time to comment here could take our writing talents and produce a Torah-appropriate piece that addresses the specific characteristics of the frum community, *that* would be a contribution!

3:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOL! I figured someone would call me on that suggestion!

3:48 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

That's funny, orthokrum, because you have been naming names on this site for the past two days. Maybe you were the inspiration for my post.

4:56 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Halachic, on your first question, I agree with the position you expressed above regarding permissibility of child molestation, although I admit that it would be great if Halakha would be more emphatic on the matter. The halachos do not address the aspect of the act that most of us find most reprehensible, that is, the nonconsensual nature of the contact and the fact that the victim is a young boy. The sanctions that the Torah would apply to the act in question would be no different then if the boy wasn't there, or if the boy were a consenting adult. That troubles me.

As for the Lashon Hara issue, I am not an expert on the matter, and I don't know why you would say that my post indicates I am. I do think (as I said inthe post) that the CC notwithstanding, a better approach to LH would consist of a balance of values rather than a strict set of rules. Of course, this is academic, because who am I to argue on the Chafetz Chaim?

6:22 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

I would add one more point:

My comments above assumes that the only basis for the prohibition are those mentioned in halachic's comments. There may be other sources that I'm not aware of (a question for Gil?)

6:27 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Halachic, thank you for the additional sources. What do you mean by "the corresponding sources in Sanhedrin would qualify these acts for criminal prosecution under Jewish law"? What "corresponding sources"?

As to your first question, yes, I agree with you that the Orthodox rabbinic leadership should make it clear that the alleged psak is wrong. I look around the web shows that the alleged psak has become the object of much fun by many bloggers and commenters, which, I am sure is a reflection of what non-bloggers (they are people too!) think.

As to your second question, are you asking me what my made up approach to Lashon Hara would dictate? It's complicated. On the one hand, the damage being caused by the alleged psak is greater, in my opinion, than any damage that would be done by effective, respectful criticism. On the other hand, perhaps the Gedolim can be prodded without result to public expression. On the third hand, criticism expressed publicly on a blog may be the best way for people to discuss this matter in a frank and open matter. There may be other considerations that I can't think of. In any case, the approach under my made-up LH doctrine would require balancing these considerations and choosing the course that works the best.

8:07 PM  
Blogger Orthonomics said...

Sefardilady-the truth is, our society is different, and sexuality isn't something we speak openly most of the time- I think we keep it precious that way. So to be able to articulate advice to young children on such a delicate topic clearly and openly on the one hand, and with sensitivity to its private nature on the other, is an accomplishment. If we could all get that balance, then talking about abuse that goes on in our community wouldn't be so hard.

EEM-You are correct, we are different!
We have halacha, we have Torah.

We have laws of yichud that do not allow a 9 year old boy to be alone with a female that is not his mother/grandmother/siblings. We have laws of yichud that do not allow a 3 year old girl to be alone with a male except her father/grandfather/siblings.

We have laws of tzniut that do not allow two males to sleep together in the same bed. We have laws of tzniut that do not allow a female to uncover certain body parts in public starting at certain ages (3, 6/7, 12).

Every child should know that it is absolutely imperative that he or she not be made uncomfortable and not be touched in private places.

To discuss these facts is NOT having a conversation about sex, chas v'shalom. It is to have a conversation about dignity, comfort, halacha.

Unfortunately, if our own leaders cannot come to a level of comfort to discuss these subjects in a clear and concise fashion that makes children comfortable approaching an adult, than we need to approach other people who can teach us how to do so.

And, lastly, it is absolutely imperative that authority figures be make aware that they need to protect themselves from accusations by being professional. It is ridiculous not to protect oneself. More on my blog hopefully by tomorrow night.

11:20 PM  
Blogger eem said...

I agree!

1:40 AM  
Blogger topshadchan said...

Someone commented on the angrysoul.blogspot.com website.

He made it seem that this victim is lying when he writes that 100's of kids were abused by the counslor.

He made it seem that therapy is all this counslor who admitted the acts, needs.

He said the camp directors did not know anything about it.

and then he tries to use the argument that if some anonymous blogger says something it may not be true.

Is the commentor calling angrysoul a liar?

8:01 AM  
Blogger Orthonomics said...

>>>He made it seem that therapy is all this counslor who admitted the acts, needs.

Haven't read anrysoul, but I do know that counseling for molesters is not at all foolproof. The remission rate is HUGE.

9:35 AM  
Blogger topshadchan said...

rebba
angry claims they did know.
If everything else he said was true, and he was accused on the blog of lying also (the ferarri seems to bother people)
then why shouldnt i believe that the camp was told but either was too dumb to understand the situation, or was negligent (grossly or criminally)

And I want to know why this counselors name is not being disclosed.

By the way, the case was referenced it seems in the New York mag article.

10:15 AM  
Blogger topshadchan said...

about comment above, I think the counsler should be named to ensure he is not gettingg aliyos, not in any contact with neighborhood kids etc....

If its because angry wants to remain anonymous, i understand. But if its because he was pressured to keep it quiet, then that upsets me.

10:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No one is above the law, even those who cloak themselves in piety.

12:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Angry's insistence on keeping the counselor's name anonymous has to do with protecting the potency of impending litigation.

2:51 PM  
Blogger Orthonomics said...

OM-I just put up a post on this subject. Thought I'd let you know.

12:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Saved as a favorite, I like your blog!

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2:25 AM  

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