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Wednesday, October 26, 2005

Satmar Meltdown

I always disagreed with the Satmar Chasidim when it came to their views on Israel, but never really had an opinion on them otherwise. News items I've read over the past few days have changed that.

First, I read about a visit by Mayor Bloomberg to a Satmar Sukkah. The Mayor apparently gave his usual Jewish speech, and then started to talk about his record on supporting Israel - apparently a line he uses for all his Jewish campaign stops. Except that the Satmar Chasidim are rabidly against the existence of the State of Israel. Would have been a funny story, except for the fact that the group booed the mayor. Not exactly a very mature response during a visit from the City's top elected official. And not exactly a Kiddush Hashem. All of the news outlets were gleefully reporting the Mayor's gaffe as leaving him with egg on his face. Maybe, but what about the egg on the face of the Ultra-Orthodox Jews who can't show a basic modicum of respect in the presence of an elected official? And one whose administration the community famously relies upon for a huge amount of services and housing subsidies, I might add.

Then, a story today about a fracas in Williamsburg between followers of the rival Satmar sects.
A brawl broke out in a Brooklyn synagogue yesterday morning, forcing dozens of cops in riot gear to pull worshippers from their house of prayer, in the latest eruption of a Hasidic holy war.

Yesterday's melee, which included punches, slaps and beard-pulling, broke out between clashing factions of the Satmar Hasidic sect in Williamsburg and ended with cops in helmets closing down streets to restore order on a Jewish holiday, Shmini Atzeret.

"There was chaos," said worshipper Joel Klein, 29, who said he was pulled from the Yetev Lev Bikur Cholim synagogue on Rodney Street by cops. "It was like a war zone."

Cops and witnesses said thousands were involved in the fight.
Read the article for more gory details and some background on the feuding factions. Really unimpressive that this is considered by Satmar Chasidim to be proper behavior on a Chag, in a Shul no less, in the middle of Tefila. Apparently, the "combatants" didn't even take the seconds to take off their Taleisim (prayer shawls) before the clash. Truly an embarassment.

122 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I dont know why you expected any better from them. This sect is known to be violent.

9:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Satmar has been a bunch of thugs going back to pre-war Europe.My uncles were students in Satmar when Reb Yoilish came to town with his collection of thugs.Needless to say they were Misnagdim until they died in their nineties.

10:02 PM  
Anonymous Heshy said...

As I assume you are one of those watered down modern orthodoxy types,you fail to understand what true Judaism is all about.I as an orthodox Jew have no problem of adding joy on the authentic Jewish streets of williamsburg.There is nothing wrong with a lively confrontation on Simchas Torah.In fact all authentic orthodox shuls get a little tipsy and in many cases tie up the chazzon and carry him into the streets in middle of davening.The only non authentic orthodox synagouges are the ones who diplay the Israeli flag.They are too busy watching the female congregants short skirts and looking over into their tiny mechitzas on which woman deserves to be stared at most. But the true authentic observant shuls know how to kindle the spirit of Simchas Torah.In williamsburg no one was arrested or hurt.But these modern orthodox whimps are the first to pontificate and tell us orthodox Jews what is moral.They support the liberal agitators and than dare criticize the orthodox elite like Satmer.

10:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't tell if Heshy is serious, but I myself am blaring "Ashrecha Yisrael Mi Chamocha" in the Yamim Noraim tune in response to this bit of beautiful news.

(My wife thinks I'm nuts, and I just woke up one of the kids. Thanks a bunch.)

- Moishe Potemkin

10:30 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

I can't tell if Heshy is serious,
Sadly, Moishe, I think Heshy is dead serious.

10:36 PM  
Anonymous charliehall said...

'In fact all authentic orthodox shuls get a little tipsy'

At least two orthodox shuls here in Riverdale are now alcohol-free. I'll take that over the drunkenness that is counter to our tradition's teachings that emphasize moderation (and also makes us look bad to the non-orthodox and the non-Jews).

11:22 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Charlie, I prefer to ignore Heshy, but if I must address his comments, this didn't even happen on Simchat Torah. It happened on Shmini Atzeret. So no excuse of drunkenness - not that imbibing is ever an excuse for such appalling behavior.

11:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

chasidim have hakafot on both days???

12:13 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Yes they do, but are you saying that Chasidim are expected to drink for 48 straight hours? Because that is not the case.

12:52 AM  
Blogger Balabusta in Blue Jeans said...

And I thought I was getting pretty daring with a SECOND shot of etrog vodka.

Danced like crazy anyway.

1:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I take issue with the paper calling it a "holy war." To me, the term implies that their tension surrounds theological differences. But really, this is about money - whether the Williamsburg or the Kiryas Joel Satmars should have control over the movement's considerable assets. That's not a holy war. That's money and politics. And really sad.

9:16 AM  
Blogger Sarah said...

I don't know why the above comment listed me as "Anonymous." This is Sarah of chayyeisarah.blogspot.com.

9:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We chasidim (oops!) have hakafos on the night of Shemini Atzeret, as well as at night and day of Sinchas Torah.

Getting hammered on Shemini Atzeres is less common, but sure sounds like a good idea! Seriously, I've never seen that.

- Moishe Potemkin

10:04 AM  
Anonymous bishul akum said...

Ortho good post

It's a shame but it's nothing new.You have a bunch of hot under the collar primative Hungarian's who need an outlet

10:20 AM  
Anonymous Larry Lennhoff said...

From the NY Post article:
A source said that Aaron's side bused as many as 800 people in from Kiryas Joel and tried to force their way into the synagogue.
They bused them in on the day of the Chag? What are they, conservative? Alternatively, they bussed 800 young toughs in on Hoshana Rabba and nobody noticed and perpared for trouble?

11:19 AM  
Blogger Just Passing Through said...

Then you'll love the article in today's Post.

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/30206.htm

This is just rediculous and I don't understand how they claim any ligitmacy in the frum world at all. They probably come in second place after the Neturei Karta group in the chillul Hashem contest.

11:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is just rediculous and I don't understand how they claim any ligitmacy in the frum world at all. They probably come in second place after the Neturei Karta group in the chillul Hashem contest.

No you got it all wrong! Unless you are a smelly bearded guy named Yoily who is semi literate and cheat Uncle Sam then you make a chillul hashem

11:30 AM  
Blogger respondingtojblogs said...

I have no problem with any audience expressing disapproval of a politcal speech by booing.

I do, however, draw the line at assault.

12:38 PM  
Anonymous lkwdguy said...

I have no problem with any audience expressing disapproval of a political speech by booing.

The (previous) Satmar Rav was at some sort of public function when a senator or congressman was brought over to meet him. The official began telling the Rav about all that he does for his Jewish constituents. He went on at length about his support for the State of Israel. The Rav thanked him and gave him a bracha. The chassidim were puzzled because the Rav's opposition to the medina was well known. The Rav explained to them that "famelies don't fight in public". (I heard this story from the son of one of the men present.)

Obviously they have a 'right' to boo but that does not mean it's the right thing to do.

1:37 PM  
Anonymous Der Yid said...

with such a big chilul hashem, they are both big losers

1:42 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

it's disgusting to see how big of a chilul hashem so many sects of "frum" Jews make on a constant basis. Neturai Karta is heavily included in this...You'd think with all their torah knowledge they would realize that. It's unfortunate that people that think we shouldn't have Israel until Mashiach comes are delaying his arrival by doing things like this

1:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A response to Heshy:
I am not modern orthodox. I am quite frum. My husband even considers himself somewhat chasidish. We do not have alcohol in or shul on Simchas torah. Nor do I recall the torah permitting alcohol on Simchas Torah. The only holiday where it is encouraged is Purim. I also wouldn't exactly call a group of Chasidim that hold hands with Palastenians and hold up their flags at the Israeli day Parade "Chasidic elite." It's one thing to have fews, it's another to support your people's true enemy.

2:00 PM  
Anonymous bishul akum said...

The present Satmar Rebbe is sadly stricken with senility and if he would be lucid such a thing would never of happened,as the whole backroom crazieness their.
I find it strange that Bloomberg did not due better due dilliegence

4:19 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

This group of thugs caused a number of people to be mechalel Yom Tov, by speaking on camera, etc. We should all be up in arms, no matter what uniform we wear.

4:43 PM  
Blogger Heshy said...

On OrthoMom's posting http://orthomom.blogspot.com/2005/10/satmar-meltdown.html commenter Lakewood Guy is right on the story--it was Senator Moynahan who visited the previous Satmer Rebbe and Moynahan's Jewish liaison, Mr. Luchins, was also present. . .

There were over 10,000 Satmer chasidim sitting at the dinner and The Rebbe told Mr. Luchins to tell Senator Moynahan that he and along with all of his people oppose the sale of the AWACS missiles to Saudi Arabia, as they pose a danger to Israel's security. After Moynahan left, Luchins turned to the Satmer Rebbe and whispered into his ear how surprised he was that the Satmer Rebbe supported the security of Israel when he is very anti-zionistic. The Rebbe responded, "Only within the family, we fight [in order to keep Israel Jewish]. " But for Israel's security, we are the front-line of defense.

Now analyzing the Modern Orthodox outlook, they are actually the anti-zionists. Their leaders were the first to shake hands with murders like Yassir Arafat just to enhance their egos and public images. They cow-tow on all issues that the Torah strictly forbids, from gay rights to their advocating of post-mortem organ donation. They spew hatred of ultra-Orthodox Jews in public and private no less than Goering and the SS Nazi propaganda machine. These self-proclaimed modern orthodox leaders despise their fellow Jews with black hats, streimels and spudiks.

Neturai Karta on the other hand, are actually heroic Jewish activists, who in their genius, have managed to infiltrate the highest echelon of international terrorist organizations. The NK have even managed to successfully diffuse the vicious hatred of Minister Farakan. In fact, after meeting with two dozen members of the Neturai Karta organization, Farakan stopped calling Judaism a "gutter religion". Most Modern Orthodox airheads think that by putting full-page ads in the New York Times and Jewish Week against Farakan's anti-semitism, it will somehow have an effect on him. Just as these half-baked airheads think that by protesting at the PLO New York office, terrorism will stop. It is merely a ploy for their so-called modern orthodox rabbis to see their names and photos in the papers.

The real movers & shakers are not the Modern Orthodox; but the ultra-Orthodox communities, be they yeshivish or chasidic.

1:21 AM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

Heshy once again is avoiding the issues to spew hate against the "Modern Orthodox" that only exists in his imagination.

6:22 AM  
Anonymous bishul akum said...

Heshy don't give NK to much credit,they love publicity as much as the LW wimps

10:39 AM  
Anonymous Der Yid said...

lively confrontation on Simchas Torah

heshy if your definition of a lively confrontation comes in the form of police riot gear sealing off streets, you must be still highly intoxicated from simchas Torah

i as a civilized citizen of williamsburg am ashamed to be a chusid, i am looking to convert say breslov maybe

1:04 PM  
Anonymous shlomo said...

Let me preface my remarks by saying that the behaviour of those louts on Shemini Atzeres was a Chilul Hashem and they deserve total condemnation for it.

However, on the other hand, the Satmar-bashers here should admit that this is simply bait for furthering their hatred of this huge community, and the disgracefull scenes have given them only simcha and pleasure.

Unfortunately, infighting amongst chassidic and charedi groups is so widespread that even those groups who are currently not involved in any machlokes - are presumed to be just biding their time...

Do I have to remind you all..??

Bobov, Lubavitch, Ponowitz, Belz-Machnovkeh,Chevron, Be'er Yaakov, Klausenburg, Viznitz etc etc. All of these [plus many others] are/were involved in battles or have recently ended them, or midst a ceasefire of sorts.

And nearly ever one indeed is over money and assets. [One didn't hear of any fights when the Skulener rebbe was niftar - he only left behind massive debts for his tsedaka work]

Their battles may have had less prominence in the local media, but that is just plain lucky - not because they fight in any more eidel manner than Satmar.

The fact is that 90-95% of Satmar chassidim are decent, erlich humandbeings who live proper Jewish lives and generally do MUCH more tzedoko vochesed than any other group.


Yes, there are troubles brewing in nearly ALL communities. But seeing that Satmar is far bigger than any of the others, the numbers of their troublemakers are also higher.

Remember 5% of 40,000 is 2000 while 5% of 3000 is only 150.

No person who has benefited from the kindness and goodness of Satmar will ever believe that the whole community is bad. It is only the enemies and haters who grab ever negative occurence to use as 'proof' that all 40 or 50 thousand Satmar chassidim are thugs. Yes, that is true even with 90 year old haters...

As I began, I totally and utterly condemn the bahaviour of the mechalelei Hashem and hope and pray that the erlich leadership will quickly sort out the differences and peace and harmony will again reign there.

1:22 AM  
Anonymous Seamus O"Riodan said...

Sure and it would be wonderful to read a post from someone for whom English is the first lanuage. Saints preserve us.

4:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can someone explain how Satmar
(Szatmar -original Hungarian)
came to be known as S. Mary?

No official history of the area
makes any reference as such.
Today's Satu-Mare, in Romania,
means the Big Village (Satu-village, Mare - big).

Under Hungarian rule it was
Szatmar until after WW1. The
Treaty of Trianon (1920)compelled
Hungary to cede it to Romania,
who changed its name to Satu-Mare.

3:01 PM  
Anonymous Teshuva said...

Shlomo,

A big Yasher Koach to you!
I couldn't have said it better. Even in Lubavitch, there are a few who can make us look bad.

So just because a handful,
like yours truly (i.e. ME!),
made a chillul Hashem, is it fair
to condemn all of Lubavitch for it?

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