Not My Cup Of Tea
I had a lousy experience this Shabbos, and I have only myself to blame for it. I got a call on Tuesday inviting us to Friday night dinner at the house of a couple with whom we are aquainted. We never really found common ground with them, though some of our children are friends. My gut instinct was to politely decline, but my lack of interest in spending my Friday cooking in the kitchen made me accept - betraying my better judgement.
As soon as our hosts let us in to the house and I saw the two other large familes who they were hosting along with the OrthoFam, I knew we were in trouble. You see, a very common practice in the Five Towns is to seat the children in the kitchen, while all the adults are set for in the dining room. I am not a fan of this, and it absolutely never happens in the OrthoHouse. In fact, we rarely extend or accept Shabbos invitations for precisely those reasons. In my opinion, Shabbos is a time to catch up with the kids, to really connect with them. The noise and overcrowding that might bother some when there are a gaggle of kids seated in the dining room is, to me, part of the Taam (taste) of Shabbos. Instead, I groaned inwardly as I realized that the kids were going to gulp down some grape juice and challah, and then race en masse to the basement to play. Lovely. There went Parsha discussions, the recap of what the kids covered in school that week - basically, there went any prospect of meaningful interaction with my children at this meal.
Then the conversation took a turn that made me say a silent prayer of thanks for the fact that my children were not present. Two of the couples at the table each have more than a few children, all of the same gender. The other two couples, the hosts and ourselves, had families that are more evenly distributed in terms of gender. So one of the women, who has all boys, asked if we have some kind of "secret" to share about how to have a family that is more evenly weighted than theirs. I was rendered speechless. I literally had no idea what she was getting at. Laughing gaily at my obvious discomfort, she elaborated. Suffice it to say that the terms "sexual position" and "sperm" are not words I ever envisioned hearing at any dinner gathering - let alone one that took place on Shabbos. The kicker? The woman covers every strand of her hair and her husband and older boys wear black hats. Ugh. I was ill.
To recap, I don't expect to accept invitations from the host anytime soon. Nor do I anticipate inviting over the couple who was so eager to dicuss procreative techniques. And next time my gut tries to tell me something, I'll try to listen more closely. It seems to have much better judgement than I do.
As soon as our hosts let us in to the house and I saw the two other large familes who they were hosting along with the OrthoFam, I knew we were in trouble. You see, a very common practice in the Five Towns is to seat the children in the kitchen, while all the adults are set for in the dining room. I am not a fan of this, and it absolutely never happens in the OrthoHouse. In fact, we rarely extend or accept Shabbos invitations for precisely those reasons. In my opinion, Shabbos is a time to catch up with the kids, to really connect with them. The noise and overcrowding that might bother some when there are a gaggle of kids seated in the dining room is, to me, part of the Taam (taste) of Shabbos. Instead, I groaned inwardly as I realized that the kids were going to gulp down some grape juice and challah, and then race en masse to the basement to play. Lovely. There went Parsha discussions, the recap of what the kids covered in school that week - basically, there went any prospect of meaningful interaction with my children at this meal.
Then the conversation took a turn that made me say a silent prayer of thanks for the fact that my children were not present. Two of the couples at the table each have more than a few children, all of the same gender. The other two couples, the hosts and ourselves, had families that are more evenly distributed in terms of gender. So one of the women, who has all boys, asked if we have some kind of "secret" to share about how to have a family that is more evenly weighted than theirs. I was rendered speechless. I literally had no idea what she was getting at. Laughing gaily at my obvious discomfort, she elaborated. Suffice it to say that the terms "sexual position" and "sperm" are not words I ever envisioned hearing at any dinner gathering - let alone one that took place on Shabbos. The kicker? The woman covers every strand of her hair and her husband and older boys wear black hats. Ugh. I was ill.
To recap, I don't expect to accept invitations from the host anytime soon. Nor do I anticipate inviting over the couple who was so eager to dicuss procreative techniques. And next time my gut tries to tell me something, I'll try to listen more closely. It seems to have much better judgement than I do.
posted by orthomom at 9:09 PM
51 Comments:
I knew a (very frum BT) ivy-league graduate who believed that if, when trying to conceive, you aligned your bed North-South vs. East-West (or vice versa, who remembers?) you would have boys. His Rabbi had taught him that.
Let's not turn this into a discussion of procreative techniques.
Maybe on of the reasons to keep the kids in the dining room is to prevent the conversation from drifting to these topics.
There are all kinds of people in the world.
>There are all kinds of people in the world.
Proof that there are all kinds of ways to procreate?
I hate the Five Towns. Too many people are depraved and masquerade as upper-class folk. The "Modern" (as a label) elitis, nose-up-in-the-air people always annoyed the hell out of me, but now it's that faker, shallow, uneducated, black hat on the outside and black soul on the inside, that is just so sickening. These lowlives with a couple of dollars in daddy money move into the Five Towns and they think they have arrived. They throw their kids in the other room and disgust decent people with their filthy talk - no better than a two-bit uptown whore!
Um... Henchy and Inquirer. I think you could both use some improvement with "saying it better". Just a statement like "I hate the Five Towns" followed by a name-calling, stereotyping rant is not so indicative of a pure, "white" soul and is certainly not in the spirit of how frum yiddish people were meant to talk. You'll notice the difference in how our hostess, Orthomom, describes her distaste with specific incidences and people. You could perhaps learn a lesson from her.
Orthomom, you should be proud that your home has the proper spirit of Shabbat. That will have a more profound effect on your children's spirituality than anything that will be preached to them at school or elsewhere. I'm totally with you on the "separate seating" (kids and 'rents) issue. My family eats together . No kids' table for my children. i could never figure out why anyone was in such a rush to give up on this precious bonding time. As a working mom, with kids in school most of the day, there seems to be so few chore-free hours in the day to connect. Shabbat is such a treat. My 5-year-old son went so far as to tell me that Shabbat is his favorite day because (and I quote) "we get to spend time".
I 2nd Ayelet's comments. Without getting into the whole sex issue, why would anyonen to want to spend Shabbat (and certainly the meals) without their children - what is Shabbat without family?
If this couple wants to talk about sex so badly, go into the bedroom, close the door, and talk about whatever you want - but why let it come at the expense of family time.
a) isn't this the second time you struck out with an invitation to a Shabbat meal? your social circle is closing down around you;
b) well, if you were a Beit Midrash, over a period of time you'd hear exactly some of those topics and details and I'm guessing the lady was in anticipation (for later that night);
c) as for the Five Towns, I'm ignorant so I can't participate in that part of the discussion.
It seems to show some insecurity when one chooses to deride another community-especially so with general stereotypes. Perhaps you have issues with your own community and find it easier to kvetch about others. Every community has their good people as well as those with no brains. Black hat or not.
Between myself and my close relatives I am acquainted with Shabbos meals in Brooklyn, Passaic, Monsey, Washington Height, Silver Spring, and Yerushalaim--and I have NEVER run across the idea of putting children out of the room on Shabbos. Even on the rare occasion when I have been at a (weekday) party with a children's table, that table was ALWAYS in the same room as the adult table. I just find it a totally bizarre concept. (Now, children who WISH they were in a different room I've run into. I was one of them. But no, we had to sit and learn company manners. Which now makes me one of the only people I know who knows to put a cloth napkin on my lap and to say "excuse me" before leaving the table.)
JPT beat me to it. Henchy and Inquirer sound like they secretly wish they lived in the Five Towns and since they can't, instead, ignorantly malign large people they know nothing about.
Incidentally, I moved TO the five towns AWAY from brooklyn, among other reasons, because I found more of the people i encountered in the 5T to be much more refined in their manner and religious observance.
Actually, around these parts, I sometimes stick out as a bit rough at the edges which might be attributable to my lifelong proximity to the heilige velt of Brooklyn.
"ignorantly malign large people "
ignorantly malign large GROUPS OF people
(although Inquirer and Henchy sound obnoxious, they probably have nothing against fat people)
The first thought that popped into my head was "well, if you aren't going to speak loshon hora at the table, what else left is there to talk about?"
The kids not sitting at the table when company is over is a derivitive of another problem. G-d forbid, a family should invite only ONE couple for a shabbos meal. Why is it that people feel they need to invite 3 or 4 couples at a time? You would think that one invites company to share friendship and get to know one another. That simply isn't possible when 8 people are trying to speak at the same time.
Most of us don't have dining rooms that fit a million people, and so it was only natural to state that an adult gets a seat before a child does, and since there's no room at the table, you can sit in the kitchen, and hence the problem.
In addition, you simply can't ask parsha questions and get school updates when there are literally 16 kids in the house. And the truth is, my wife is sensitive to this when we do invite company (which is rarely as of late due to many of the issues you mention here OM).
By the way, the problem exists more so in the 5T only because we have an eruv -- in Brooklyn, it's much harder to invite company because if you have small children, you're stuck in the house.
I've rarely understood the 'invite a few couples over' concept. That works when you don't have kids, or all the kids are under a certain age, maybe - it allows a couple of couples to meet each other and/or spend time together.
I noticed in Baltimore a couple of weeks ago that my sister's friends placed all the kids on a seperate table in the same room. There, however, all the kids were 3 or under save a 5-year old. I can't imagine any of those couples doing the same when their kids are older.
Orthomom, another great post - and yet another reason I don't understand why you live in the Five Towns. (Not trying to knock, merely question: ) Why do you live there? Why not move to a community where you will be more comfortable, happier, where there are less negative influences on your children, and where everything is cheaper? [A post, perhaps?]
I hear you, Ezzie. The Five Towns aren't all bad. I could go on and on about the chesed that is done here, and the wonderful people whose shabbos tables I've sat at. I guess it's just a fact of life that there's more drive to rant about things that irk you than things that are ok.
There IS an eruv in Brooklyn. Open your mind a little.
"...what is that all about????"
They probably went to some phony-baloney pseudo right wing school where being a phony-baloney pseudo Halachic Jew is expected.
"tell me five orthodox rabbis that hold of the flatbush eruv... they have to be jewish not the ones that step down as principals in so called jewish schools b/c he is gay."
bottom line a moron is a moron.... and, you, Rebba the Hutt, are a moron.
Hey! Why can't we all get along???
The Five Towns aren't all bad. I could go on and on about the chesed that is done here, and the wonderful people whose shabbos tables I've sat at. I guess it's just a fact of life that there's more drive to rant about things that irk you than things that are ok.
Granted. Not being anon, I tend to not post about the irks as much, for fear of lashon hara [one reason I'm not anon, actually...] But obviously, people tend to post about the negatives, because the positives are (hopefully) daily occurences.
I'm just curious because the things that do irk you seem to be more native to NY, while the positives of NY are available elsewhere. (It's also partly on my mind because of a post I wrote yesterday, and the comments therein.)
Calling you names? You did that yourself.
By belittling the Yeshiva of Flatbush, a school which I'm certain you know nothing about, in some lame attempt to elevate your own self-image, you give yourself away for the ignorant, illiterate, narrow-minded moron you clearly are.
"Living in the Five Towns" is probably the title of a book that should be written (hmmmm, another personal project maybe), but coming from someone who moved to the 5T, then left, then returned, and can say that as many things as there are bad, there are certainly as much (or even more so), that are good.
There are challenges to living anywhere (including Israel) -- the problems are just different ones, and no one is free to determine which problems are better or worse to deal with.
BTW, I think it's totally awesome how I can make a single comment that results in so many posts that are so far removed from the topic of the original post.
I happen to tthink that when couples get together for meals its perfectly ok to put the kids in the kitchen. And it's perfectly ok not to like it, too.
As for the topic of conversation, I'm surprised you found it suprising. You must not eat out very often.
happen to tthink that when couples get together for meals its perfectly ok to put the kids in the kitchen.
I'm very sorry for your kids. There are Saturday nights for expressly the purpose of getting together with other adults - if it's really that important to you. Oh, and...
As for the topic of conversation, I'm surprised you found it suprising. You must not eat out very often.
I'm not sure where you eat out, but count me out.
I'm very sorry for your kids. There are Saturday nights for expressly the purpose of getting together with other adults - if it's really that important to you. Oh, and...
That's fine, and often I agree with you on this question, but I see the other side, too. Easiest thing to do is to ask the host before you say yes, if you think it matters.
I'm not sure where you eat out, but count me out.
With Orthodox Jews who I expect are not to different from the ones in your neck of the woods.
"so called jewish schools"
Rebba, you're not a mentch AND clearly a liar. Those are your words. Not mine. And shameful, too. You would NOT have said that if you knew ANYTHING about Yeshiva of Flatbush.
And by the way, how dare you make fun of a fellow jew who is having a difficult time. At least the guy had the courage to step down and admit why. Who are you to make fun of him??? And why would you??? Is that menshlechkeit?
As for the eruv, the part of your remarks which i have no interest, for your information, i grew up in flatbush, davened in a young israel and, because my father's rebbe is a talmud of R' Moshe NEVER carried with the eruv. BUT I never, ever, ever, EVER (i can't even imagine it!!) heard my father say anything even mildly, inferentially disparaging about people who did. To our family it was a matter of 'we follow this rov, they follow that rov.' Not, "we don't so we're more religious."
People like you who think you have all the answers and YOU'RE BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE make me slightly queasy.
Rebba? Ha!
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I'm just glad you recanted on making fun of someone. That's what bothers me most.
How do the parents that relegate their children to the kitchen for meals ever expect their children to learn how to be proper people at a dinner table? How do they expect their children to learn how to have a conversation and run a Shabbat table?
Ugh!
As long as it's not too often, I see nothing wrong with having the children eat with their friends in the kitchen. Both children and adults deserve some "alone time" with their contemporaries, even on shabbos. Adults are busy with their children, or jobs, or both, all week, and deserve an occasional shabbos meal with their friends, no matter what the conversation.
I grew up in a smallish house, with a small dining room (seated 8, max, with the extra leaves in the table) and a small kitchen (seated 6, max). There were four kids in my family, so even if we only had one family over (with, say, three kids), that meant 11 people, far too many for the dining room. So the kids sat in the kitchen until bar/bat mitzvah, at which point, they graduated to the dining room. And that's that. We all have pretty good table manners and I don't think it hurt us any. We didn't have guests over *that* often, though, so maybe that's why. But, still, I don't see what all of the fuss is about.
I can't figure out what bothered me more:
1. Inappropriate table talk on Shabbat.
2. Same as above by black hat crowd.
3. Same as above with a few couples.
4. Making the kids eat in the kitchen.
Just when I think its safe to read Orthomom's blog, I'm surprised weekly by the stuff going on!
Maybe I'm just naïve...or maybe it was that quiz classification 2 weeks ago that I'm Modern Orthodox.
Regardless - I'm creeped out.
OM--After my precious daughter was born, a few people from different spectrums of frumkeit asked me the same question (i.e. did my husband and I have sex on the ceiling, etc.). There's bad taste and poor manners in many communities.
I don't mean this to sound malicious, and I am sure there are a lot of positive things about living where you do, but every time I read your blog I thank Hashem (again) that I moved to Israel. I can't even imagine this topic coming up at the Shabbos table.
I have also been invited to homes where there are 15 kids at the table, and we do speak about the parsha. Everyone learns patience, and we start with the littlest ones (so they can leave the table if they have to) and move on up.
The kicker? The woman covers every strand of her hair and her husband and older boys wear black hats. Ugh. I was ill.
There's a lot of things those shaitels and black hats hide...
Would it have made you ill if she didn't cover her hair? How about a fall?
westbankmamma
Next time I come to Israel can I come to your house for shabbos. Last time I was in Israel all the table talk was about how the government is all evil doers and should be killed, how the arabs are evil and should be killed and lots of talk about all the other families on the yishuv (this one has money, this ones parents support him). Last week at my table we had about 10 kids, we discussed the parsha, sang zemiros, enjoyed the food and the shabbos enviornment and guess what it was in the 5 towns. Point being that it isn't the locale that determines the atmosphere and talk at the shabbos table it is the people.
I'll bet eating with the OrthoFam on Shabbos is no fun. No loshon hora, no "off-color" conversation, plus you have to sit with other people's kids and listen to all of their kvetching. You must be the most boring people on earth.
Anonymous said...
I'll bet eating with the OrthoFam on Shabbos is no fun. No loshon hora, no "off-color" conversation, plus you have to sit with other people's kids and listen to all of their kvetching. You must be the most boring people on earth.
I think it sounds wonderful! Can I invite myself over, orthomom? All 9 of us? (Don't worry, we aren't local, and if we do make it to NY, there are other people who have dibs on us. Oh, and we don't generally use eruvim anyway, for chinuch reasons.)
Anyway, as a kid there was one cousin's house we occasionally visited (always on a weekday) where all the kids ate at the bar in the basement (no room in the kitchen) and the adults ate in the dining room... but the concept of doing that on Shabbos is just totally foreign to me. We bought a bigger dining room table because we wanted to be able to fit all our kids and have guests as well without having to resort to an auxillary table... which was still in the same room, of course.
The thought of such "adult conversation" in mixed company, at the Shabbos table... I'm not even going to go there. All I can say is I'm equally astounded and horrified. Totally inappropriate.
I think it sounds wonderful! Can I invite myself over, orthomom? All 9 of us?
Anytime! And there is room for all 9 of you at the table, and the conversation is always appropriate. (Oh, and anon, it's never boring either).
Lets get back to the point...
There is a theory that that says sex just before ovulation brings a girl, and sex after ovulation brings a boy.
I'm embarrased that I know this, so I'm going anon on this one.
the rebba shlita learns daf yomi?
1) The Gemara that claims that if your bed is oriented from north to south then you will have boys is somewhere in Berachos.
2) Another Gemara (don't ask me where) claims that if the woman reaches orgasm first, then the child will be a boy, while if the man climaxes first, then the child will be a girl. I once read a bit by Rabbi Riskin, in which he speculated that Chazal's intention here was to give men a reason to be attentive to their wives' sexual satisfaction.
3) Although there are better times and places for raising the question, I counsel a bit more tolerance for people who undoubtedly feel quite anxious about the situation they find themselves in -- especially if they feel halachically bound to continue procreating until they have one child (maybe even two) of each gender.
4) When I read your post about Torah cards, I felt bad for you, since you aren't quite as well off as the families who had the resources to buy a lot of cards for their kids. But when I read that you have enough room to accommodate a family of 9 in addition to your own family of 6 all at the same table I started feeling sorry for myself. The only way I could do that would be to buy a very large dining room table -- plus a house with a dining room big enough to fit the table.
Uncle Moishy:
When I read your post about Torah cards, I felt bad for you, since you aren't quite as well off as the families who had the resources to buy a lot of cards for their kids. But when I read that you have enough room to accommodate a family of 9 in addition to your own family of 6 all at the same table I started feeling sorry for myself. The only way I could do that would be to buy a very large dining room table -- plus a house with a dining room big enough to fit the table.
You obviously don't get it, do you. This isn't about what I can and can't afford. Trust me, spending less than 100$ to buy some torah cards isn't going to break the bank. And you have no idea how large or small my dining room table is. This is about values and priorities. And you can't buy those in the Judaica store of the furniture store.
Of course it's about values and priorities. But this is what you said in your "Gedolim Gripes" post:
As soon as my son got wind of [how other kids were obtaining cards], he was begging me to do the same as so many of his more well-off friends' parents were doing
You also said that when points can be bought in the local Judaica store or kosher supermarket, "it becomes less a behavior contest than a wealth contest"
I don't see priorities and values in those quotes. Just money. In fact, the presumption that it is only the richer parents who are springing for the bought cards might not even be true. You should have said that it was the parents with misplaced values or a misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of the competition (regardless of their means) who bought the cards for their children.
As for the size of your dining room table, you told Anon her family of 9 was welcome anytime and that "there is room for all 9 of you at the table." What inference do you suggest I draw? That 15 people will fit at the table not because the table is large enough, but by dint of your superior values and priorities?
That 15 people will fit at the table not because the table is large enough, but by dint of your superior values and priorities?
yes.
boring AND crowded. Count me out.
You can find detailed instructions on choosing the sex of your baby (no guarantees) in Toni Weschler's book, Take Charge of Your Fertility.
Also, OM, I think it's funny that these couples assumed that just because you have children of both sexes, you must have done it deliberately. Guess their yeshiva didn't teach them about probability.
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