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Wednesday, May 17, 2006

Bowing to Threats

Wow, this is very distressing:
A planned visit to Quebec by the Rebbe of the Gur Chassidic sect, Rabbi Yaakov Aryeh Alter, and Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteineman, both leading figures in the Hareidi-religious community in Israel, has been cancelled. The reason for the sudden cancellation is reportedly the plans by members of the Satmar Chassidic sect in Montreal to hold public demonstrations against the visiting rabbis.

Satmar Chassidim in Montreal have obtained a police permit for a protest scheduled for the day of the two Israeli rabbis' planned arrival in town. The spark for the Satmar opposition to the two Hareidi-religious rabbis is Rabbi Shteineman's support for the Tal Law and for the IDF's Nachal Hareidi unit, both of which signal formalized integration of Hareidi citizens into larger Israeli society.

The Rebbe of Gur, seeking to avoid the public disgrace of open conflict in the Jewish community, elected to cancel the visit, despite pleas from local rabbis that such a tactic would strengthen the extremist minority in the French Canadian city.

Does anyone really think it's a good idea for the Charedi community to time and again bow to its most extreme elements? Though I respect the fact that the Gerrer Rebbe is trying to avoid conflict, I just question whether this type of action just sends a message that Ultra-Orthodox Judaism responds well to these sorts of strong-arm tactics. Which, sadly, it does.

(hattip: Shmarya)

28 Comments:

Blogger Charlie Hall said...

Looks like Montreal is not the only location for protests:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961356672&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

9:38 AM  
Anonymous Yehudah Laufer said...

I think that the Gerrer Rebbe did the right thing. These people are very extreme and if they are capable of meeting with Arafat and Iranian leaders, there are capable of causing chaos here too. It is unfortunate that we have to bow to their maniacal pressures but the alternative would have been a great chillul Hashem. The media is busy enough with stories that bring shame to the frum world. We don't need to give them another excuse.

It is especially sad that these misguided maniacs are from Satmar. Satmar is the source for so much chessed - hatzalah, bikur cholim etc. They have done great things. But unfortunately, the face that the world sees is of these resha'im and, now, of the dueling brothers. Satmar has to get its house in order but unfortunately I don't think that will happen anytime soon. Until then, expect more mayhem inside Williamsburg and beyond.

9:40 AM  
Blogger SephardiLady said...

This is just disgusting and I think it is a mistake to bow down to the extremists. (I may not have Da'as Torah, but it seems that by cow towing once, it will become a more common occurance).

9:41 AM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...

the chilul hashem it would have caused, jews protesting jews, would have been great, this just shows the greatness of the gera rebba to avoid conflict. ohev shalom v'rodef shalom.

9:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe they cancelled the visit because they found out that there are women in quebec.

9:53 AM  
Anonymous Yehudah Laufer said...

"Maybe they cancelled the visit because they found out that there are women in quebec."

Anon - this is a serious topic. Foolish sarcasm is not warranted.

10:48 AM  
Anonymous VFB said...

Yehudah Laufer said "[t]hese people are very extreme and if they are capable of meeting with Arafat and Iranian leaders."

You are confusing Satmar with Neturei Karta.

11:53 AM  
Anonymous Yehudah Laufer said...

By "those people" I was referring to people who would protest the presence of the Gerrer Rebbe and Rav Shteinman because they do not hate the state of Israel (though they are certainly far from zionists). And yes - I do lump them into the same category as Neturei Karta.

11:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Laufer- this is a blog. Seriousness is not warranted.

12:51 PM  
Blogger joel rich said...

I am not a sociologist or an anthropologist or the son of either. I do wonder however if this phenomenon would be inherent in a system in which a group deligitimizes those to "one side" of them by claiming this other group lacks the "purity" that the deligitimizing group possesses (rather than a live and let live approach). The dynamic put in place might then be so internalized that it would be continually applied within the original group.

Not saying this is happening in this case or that such a purification is a bad thing, just wondering.
KT

12:55 PM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...

first of all get the facts straight it wasnt Satmar.

second how many jews have been killed cause of satmar activity? 0

how many jews have been killed cause of zionists activities? too many to count.

point of interest take the hebrew letters of tzion and they spell nazi.

1:37 PM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...

Conversation in Satmer overheard
A Yeshivaworld reader emailed me that he was in Satmar this evening, and overheard a conversation taking place. This is what he heard: There were two Satmar Chasidim in The Monsey Satmar Shul talking. One of them, was Chesky Tirnuar, Rabbi Moshe Menachem Tirnuar's son. Chesky said he just saw the article from the Jpost and faxed it to his father. His father told him he never told people to organize a protest, nor did he say people should protest Rav Shteinman's visit. ALL he said during a gemara shuir was something negative about "Rav Shteinman and the Tzionim". Chesky Tirnuar also said this is Niturei Karta organizing a protest and they can't get more than 100 people to come; similar to the protest in Monsey last year that didnt have more than 50 people. It's just that Niturei Karta give stories to the media and Jpost to make a big deal about it. [He was asked if this can be made public, (Ex: Yeshivaworld) and he said he doesn't have a problem with that as long as I understand his father doesn't support rav steinman.]
posted by Y.W. Editor at 5/16/2006 09:56:00 PM Comments (2) | Trackback

1:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Honestly if you have any knowledge of the satmar world, or the satmar yeshiva systems you would know that there is not much of a point in seperating the ideology or actions of neturei karta from satmar. They both stem from the same base. Take a look at some of the "childrens" books that are given out to the satmar children in the yeshivas about the zionists. They have pictures of zionists and nazis collaborating at aushwitz, and that is only the tip of the iceberg. No wonder such hate comes out of them when they get older.

1:44 PM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...

They have pictures of zionists and nazis collaborating at aushwitz

well thats the point thanks for bringing it up.

you obviously dont realize the greatness of satmar. if you ever were in the hospital the bikur cholim would do what ever they could to help you no matter what your demomination happens to be. if you ever had to bury a loved one they do it with such respect and tznius it is a blessing to deal with the satmar burial chapels.

do you really think that the rebbes of satmar didnt know what they were doing? that is why they were able to rebuild from the ashes a network worth billions that unfortunayely makes sons fight over. and yes there is a diff between Neturei Karta and satmar.

2:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is the point of bringing that up? Because the way they bring up their children to believe that the zionists conspired with the nazi's to create concentration camps might be somewhat relevant to what went on in montreal. Children brought up learning this kind of mishugass are bound to grow up and do anything. Listen, I know the good things that satmar do, believe me, but it does not matter, Rabbeim in the past would go to the greatest lengths to avoid a chillul hashem. Simply put, the good that the satmar does, DOESN'T outweigh the bad.

2:21 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'I do lump them into the same category as Neturei Karta'

This is over the top.

'point of interest take the hebrew letters of tzion and they spell nazi. '

This, too.

'for the Charedi community to time and again bow to its most extreme elements'

One could say something similar about the Religious Zionist community. The language directed toward Sharon and Ohlmert is not something anyone should say about a fellow Jew, no matter how mistaken.

2:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Charlie Hall, seriously if you saw some of the things taught to satmer's in their yeshivas in williamsburg I'm not sure you would find it "over the top" to compare them with neturei karta. It's true satmar does not collaborate with Hamas leaders as Neturei does, but the education they get in Satmar is what induces this kind of behavior. This is not an exageration, its completely astonishing to see whats given out to children in their yeshivas on yom haatzmaut.

2:51 PM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...

i once asked the neturei karta fellow at the israel day parade that if the medina is against halacha you protest it? so why dont you protest mastubation? he replied if he stood next to a palastinian with his schmek in his hand he would be awfully embarassed.

2:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

maybe we should cancel the Israel day parade because of the protests.

Or the Israelis shouldn't have taken out Sheik Yassin, bec. the news showed some "hassidic looking guys" at the memorial service.

5:22 PM  
Anonymous mycroft said...

"that the rebbes of satmar didnt know what they were doing? that is why they were able to rebuild from the ashes a network worth billions "
Since when does Yahadus believe that monetary success equals correct beliefs-if that were true I guess the Wahabiites of Sudi Arabia would be the true religion.

5:48 PM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...

it's all very simple but you seem not to see the big picture. the fact that the chasidishe world exists after the chorbon europe is all because of chasdei hashem. when one has faith that the same G-D who took us out of Egypt is the same G-D that saved us from the ovens so that we will be able to perform his will. the will of hasheM is also to make the jewish homeland under certain conditions. these conditions are questionable if in modern times they have been met. the fact that the zionist rushed to create a state shows a lack of faith in G-D's promise to the children of Abraham. if those who are liberal about everything else why cant you accept the point of view by these extremists? it is sad that you are the first to condem your own kind and the first to defend those who threaten the survival of the Jewish people. telll me one thing how come G-ds name isn't mentioned in hatikva? is it because of denial?

6:11 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"Yehudah Laufer said...
"Maybe they cancelled the visit because they found out that there are women in quebec."

Anon - this is a serious topic. Foolish sarcasm is not warranted."


I think you got off on the wrong floor.

Foolish sarcasm is pretty much all your going to get around here. Maybe try your luck in Lakewood or Monroe. No one smiles there.

8:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well it seems that an end run was performed on Satmar as the Gerrer Rebbe and Rav Shteinman made a quick day trip to Montreal.
These Satmar lowlifes in my opinion are descendants of the Eruv Rav that mingled with the Jews when they left Mitzrayim.

10:58 PM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...

These Satmar lowlifes in my opinion are descendants of the Eruv Rav that mingled with the Jews when they left Mitzrayim.

well at least back then they knew there shouldn't be a state of israel until moshiach.
keep knocking the satmars they will be the ones who are still around after the next holocaust that the zionist cause.

11:13 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'I'm not sure you would find it "over the top" to compare them with neturei karta'

I actually know some Satmar chasidim. We have actually discussed Zionism. They are very proud that they have never accepted any money from the government of Israel (unlike most other purportedly anti-Zionist religious groups). And they would also never cooperate with anyone who murders Jews.

The anti-Zionist charedi position has a lot better support from our tradition than we Zionists usually like to admit. And those of us who tolerated the invective against the Israeli government during the disengagement have no right to complain about anything the Satmars put out.

11:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Charlie: I understand anti zionism is a legitimate opinion to have. I am saying that the anti-zionist propoganda that the satmer children get in their yeshivas goes beyond teaching that zionism was opposed by many gedolim or explaining why it is incorrect because of the 3 oaths. They actually give out children's picture books that show the zionists standing behind the gates of aushwitz with nazi's looking happy as they watch frum jews in the camp being killed. And that is only the tip of the iceberg. Just because many of these satmer children grow up and take on a more level headed approach of anti zionism doesn't mean that some of these children take this extreme hatred toward zionism to heart. Trust me, when satmer kids are children their is nothing worse then a zionist, they say yemach shemam when a zionist is mentioned etc.

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Moshe Cederbaum said...

By the way. The Gerrer Rebbe shlita ended up going to both Toronto and Montreal after all.

I guess calmer heads prevailed.

6:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

very discusting analogy there between nazi and lehavdil the other word. for doesnt it say ki metzion taitzay tora?

10:08 PM  

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