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Saturday, June 03, 2006

Shavuot Wrap-Up

1. Spotted hanging on a local shul's bulletin board: An advertisement for a fruit-delivery service - with the words printed on top:
Please do not read this ad on Shabbos.
You can't make this stuff up, people.

2. Is celebrating Shavuot REALLY all about the "men" (my husband and son) staying up all night to learn, so that the rest of the family can spend the whole next morning tiptoeing around the house so as not to disturb their sleep - and then not even sitting down to eat lunch until the "men" decide they're ready to roll out of bed at 2 pm? I think not.

3. I find it fascinating that things haven't changed a bit at girls' schools since I attended one. My daughter's take-away message from all of her pre-Shavuot studies? That in Megillat Ruth, Ruth was very "tzniudik" (modest) in how she gleaned in the fields, and that was why Boaz noticed her. I would love, just once, for a teacher to stress the fact that even though Ruth was not Jewish by birth, she was able to marry a great scholar, and have as a descendant David HaMelech, and that this shows us that we have to be accepting of all Jews, whether converts or newly religious, or just those who are different from you. I have a feeling I might be waiting for my kids to get that take-away message for a long time.

4. Otherwise, my Chag was beautiful. The kids were great, we had a great balance between having company and eating quiet meals by ourselves, and my food (if I say so myself) all came out fabulous.

Shavuah Tov, people.

51 Comments:

Blogger Ezzie said...

1) Oy.
2) It shouldn't be. I believe the Chof Chaim was against people staying up and then sleeping in during the day, feeling it defeated the purpose.
3) Beautiful thought... and hopefully, it won't take as long as you think.

11:13 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

1) If they don't want it read on shabbos, don't put it in a shul.

2) In my household, either my wife and I *both* stay up (as we did last year) or *neither* stay up (this year -- because I have a cold).

3) Well said. If we are blessed with kids, I will send them to a school that presents the message in your post rather than the message your your daughter's school presented.

11:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're right OM, teachers should stress the idea of accepting all jews regardless of their backround. But many of the more "Yeshivish" schools would never stress such an idea. They all want little cookie cutter Bais Yaakov types. No one is allowed to be different. You might want to rethink the school you're sending your children to.

11:31 PM  
Blogger SephardiLady said...

1. LOL.

2. What we do is eat our seudah at breakfast time and keep this meal really simple. This gets everyone fed and then there is no concern with oversleeping and not eating by the correct time.

3. It would be nice to see a different message, but I'm doubting that will happen in many schools. Did you see the opening paragraph in the editorial in this week's Yated?

11:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SephLady...did not see Yated, please elaborate.

11:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please do not read this ad on Shabbos.

LOL. It's fun to goof on halacha.

12:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Didn't Ruth stand out because she was a hot shiska?

12:20 AM  
Blogger Jack's Shack said...

I would love, just once, for a teacher to stress the fact that even though Ruth was not Jewish by birth, she was able to marry a great scholar, and have as a descendant David HaMelech, and that this shows us that we have to be accepting of all Jews, whether converts or newly religious, or just those who are different from you. I have a feeling I might be waiting for my kids to get that take-away message for a long time.

It would be nice, but I am not real optimistic and that is pretty sad.

1:15 AM  
Blogger David said...

#3 - hear! hear!

Thank you for articulating what it is that bugs me so much about the typical take on that megillah.

1:22 AM  
Anonymous mycroft said...

"Otherwise, my Chag was beautiful. The kids were great, we had a great balance between having company and eating quiet meals by ourselves, "

Glad you enjoyed the chag.

" My daughter's take-away message from all of her pre-Shavuot studies? That in Megillat Ruth, Ruth was very "tzniudik" (modest) in how she gleaned in the fields, and that was why Boaz noticed her"
A misleading perversion of the message of Ruth. I don't know what schools your daughter goes to-but I'm afraid that even if it were a MO one whioch my gut is-it isn't-she could have been taught that misleading message. It is almost the femake equivalent of the male "chavash kovah yeshua berosho" that I guess by some schools is that all that counts is that the boys wear a black hat-from my youth a TV sign of a villain BTW.

" I would love, just once, for a teacher to stress the fact that even though Ruth was not Jewish by birth, she was able to marry a great scholar, and have as a descendant David HaMelech, and that this shows us that we have to be accepting of all Jews, whether converts or newly religious, or just those who are different from you."

I wish that idea were stressed by all schools and schuls.

1:22 AM  
Anonymous mycroft said...

"I would love, just once, for a teacher to stress the fact that even though Ruth was not Jewish by birth, she was able to marry a great scholar, and have as a descendant David HaMelech, and that this shows us that we have to be accepting of all Jews, whether converts or newly religious, or just those who are different from you"

THat was the message I piked up decades ago-but of course I wasn't educated in the 5T's.

1:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1. ha

2. i dont get your point. you dont want ppl to stay up all night and learn?

3. went to a pretty yeshivish school, but a boys school so maybe that's why it was different? Regardless, the point that moshiach will come from a ger was far and away the most critical point stressed to us.

1:55 AM  
Blogger Izzy said...

1) LOL. But, think of it in a humorous way. It certainly got your attention. Probably more so than if it had been a "stam" ad. BTW, for Charlie Hall, ads are put in a shul for those who are there on weekdays.

2) My various Ravs, Rabbis and Mashpias have always said that it is more important to sleep than to miss the Aseres HaDibros in shul the next day. Nonetheless, I and two of my teenage sons stayed up all night learning (and, admittedly goofing off some), and we took a nap (from about 5 am to 9 am) and made it to shul at about 10:30 am (my shul, BTW, begins at 10 am on YomTovs).

1:57 AM  
Blogger Rafi G said...

2. it should not be, but that is the way it usually is.. sorry..though i sleep through my kids noise, and nobody tiptoes anywhere.. and I get up for lunch about 12 or so..
3. nice lesson..

2:41 AM  
Anonymous Regular Jew said...

I heard a great lesson from a big Rav about learning all night Shavuos: It's not the quantity, it's the quality. Hashem only wants your heart - He wants to see your devotion to him. So if you try and learn all night and it's just not going and you end up sleeping ... it's ok. You showed devotion to Hashem and His Torah and that's what Shavuos and Matan Torah is all about.

8:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

3. for what it's worth, i went to a bais yaakov and that's the message that was stressed (not the tznius aspect - the geiores/moshiach etc aspect)

8:04 AM  
Anonymous another 5t parent said...

I got the same message from my daughter (attends a all-girls 5T elementary, but not an UO one). The interesting part is that she is learning all about Rut's modesty, but teachers gloss over the fact that Ruth basically climbed into bed with Boaz in the middle of the night. Minor fact.

8:08 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

mycroft said...

"I would love, just once, for a teacher to stress the fact that even though Ruth was not Jewish by birth, she was able to marry a great scholar, and have as a descendant David HaMelech, and that this shows us that we have to be accepting of all Jews, whether converts or newly religious, or just those who are different from you"

THat was the message I piked up decades ago-but of course I wasn't educated in the 5T's.


mycroft, I don't think it's a 5T thing in the least. I was not raised in the 5T, and I certainly didn't learn it that way either.

Anonymous said...

1. ha

2. i dont get your point. you dont want ppl to stay up all night and learn?

3. went to a pretty yeshivish school, but a boys school so maybe that's why it was different? Regardless, the point that moshiach will come from a ger was far and away the most critical point stressed to us.


2. Of course I want them to leatn all night. I just wish it didn't ruin the rest of the day.

3. Well, my kids got that one too. But that isn't necessarily the same message as the one I suggested - especially to kids, who aren't going to be able to read that between the lines. A little elaboration from their educators on the theme that if Moshiach can come from a Ger, then each and every Jew is worthy of the same level of respect, no matter his/her background would be welcome.


Anonymous said...

3. for what it's worth, i went to a bais yaakov and that's the message that was stressed (not the tznius aspect - the geiores/moshiach etc aspect)


Yes, as I said above, the geiores/moshiach aspect is very nice, but that should be a message that is stressed as a take-away message in terms of how to behave toward one's fellow Jew. The tzniyut aspect is important, but as far as my experience has shown me, it is always stressed more than the acceptance aspect. Should that be?

8:51 AM  
Blogger The Lonely Voice of Reason said...

A quick question to which I would welcome responses:
Our current minhag of Shavuot observance - all night study - is kabbalistic in origin dating to 16th century Safed. In our time, it translates into us struggling but ultimately failing to truly study (let's get real - does one study better with or without sleep?), and our kids hanging out on the streets all night doing - who knows what. Indeed, we would never allow our kids to do this because of the dangers involved but for the veneer of "frumkeit" associated with it.
Of course, there is another alternative which is followed in a number of yeshivot, basically the rationalists who follow the Rambam and Vilna Gaon - get a good night's sleep, get up for an early shacharit, have a hearty breakfast and then study until mid-day.
My question: assuming that our community offered such a program for men and women - do you think it would succeed or are we too wedded to the traditional, kabbalistic approach? Would you attend such a program, and would you make your kids attend it rather than hanging out at night?

9:02 AM  
Blogger mother in israel said...

I heard that staying up all night on Shavuot only became possible with the wide distribution of coffee. According to this timeline that was in the 17th century.

9:26 AM  
Blogger Pragmatician said...

I don't know if girls today will be so charmed by that message, if I'm not mistaken Boaz had a few more years than Ruth,more than what would be 'acceptable' for a balebatishe Shidduch.

10:03 AM  
Blogger MDmom said...

mycroft:
i was educated in the 5T and the acceptance message is exactly what we learned in my school. interesting how times have changed.

however, isn't that a running theme in many of the uncle moishy dvd's out there? at least i remember my kids singing along to some of that not too long ago... i guess we can be accepting as long as everyone is just like us (tongue planted firmly in cheek).

10:08 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

why don't you just seed the questions you want threshed out in your kids head so that they ask them.

they obsess over the modesty aspect mention what someone else mentioned above, namely that in truth she wasn't exactly what we'd call tznius durring part of it, see how the teacher reacts to that. or give the child your lesson ahead of the teacher so your kid brings it up in class.

10:09 AM  
Blogger joel rich said...

The rationalist in me agrees that more learning would get done if you got a good night sleep. The realist in me realizes that many will just take the good night sleep and go about business as usual. So you'll find me giving a class from 1:30-5:00 AM knowing that many will sleep through all or part of, but that we'll have gotten some people to be moser a little nefesh for learning.

KT

10:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My yeshivish brother told me to wear a hat b/c of Chovash Kova Yeshua B'Rosho. I told him I would grow long black locks instead b/c it says "Kevutzosov taltalim shekhoros."

ao

11:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

momof4 said:

"2. Of course I want them to leatn all night. I just wish it didn't ruin the rest of the day.

3. Well, my kids got that one too. But that isn't necessarily the same message as the one I suggested - especially to kids, who aren't going to be able to read that between the lines. A little elaboration from their educators on the theme that if Moshiach can come from a Ger, then each and every Jew is worthy of the same level of respect, no matter his/her background would be welcome."

2. got it.

3. I dont think b/c moshiach can come from a ger it therefore follows that each and every Jew is worthy of the same level of respect, no matter his/her background. that's a non-sequitor. let alone ruth for now, you're implying that gerim are somehow the "lowest" (at least in perception) and if they deserve respect than so does any/every jew. but those who reject authentic Judaism (whatever that is, hence all the arguing) or precepts of it, are certainly on a "lower rung."

I happen to agree with both statements you made and I'm certain that for ideological points that appeal to the teachers they make even worse leaps in logic, but those 2 still dont follow from one another.

1:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1) Ha! Too late.

2) I don't think the all-night tikkuns make sense. To have a relatively normal day before Yom Tov, stay up until midnight studying, and then get up as normal or a little late the next morning is special, and it's finding time for special study by extending the day, to do something extra, and then still being able to conduct oneself and enjoy the rest of the chag. But to nap extensively before, then get up to begin the evening late and stay up overnight to study, and then sleep all day is simply time-shifting, making it fairly meaningless that the studying happened overnight. I also think, though it isn't emergent, that it is sort of a pikuach nefesh situation, this sleep deprivation. Even if not, it can mess up the rest of the holiday, much more so than simply staying up studying until midnight, or, say, staying up until 2:00 after the seder on Pesach, but still waking up at a respectable time in the morning.

3) It would be great if the schools taught the lesson you relate. But at least your children do not have to wait to receive that message; even if they do not take it away from school, they are taught it by you. Children telling parents what they learned in school gives parents the opportunity to raise and discuss points the school lessons miss, or even contradict. Your daughter might then mention the message she receives from you to her classmates, talk about it with her teacher thereby teaching her teacher, or at least have it in mind to raise during the lesson next year.

4) Lovely.

2:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone could make a good case that if the people who put up the ad were so concerned about the Chillul Shabbat that might com about by those reading it, then perhaps they should not be posting ads that might cause people to inadvertently read them regardless of the disclaimer printed on top.

When was the last time saying "don't look" ever served to do anything besides make people more inclined to look.

Stupid.

3:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is an insane discussion displaying some of the most ignorant comments I've ever seen on a blog yet. There is nothing wrong with emphasizing the modesty of Ruth. The Midrashim on Ruth emphasize it. Clearly, Chazal felt that was an important message to take home. The bemoaning over this in the comments here is quite bizarre.
The idea that Ruth teaches other lessons - one of which may be the greater acceptance of "other" Jews, in addition to many other messages like not leaving the land of Israel, not intermarrying, familial responsibility etc.- does not have to take away from another equally relevant lesson.
I don't really understand what the venomous- maybe that's too strong a word- rejection of calls for modesty is based on. For all the musar shmuessen and talks that are being given constantly about modesty, you can still drive down central ave. (just to pick an example from the 5 towns) and see almost all the women dressed in ways that are just not appropriate according to the letter and most often the spirit of the law. So why should the schools stop talking about it, if in point of fact people (women) just don't seem to be getting the message?

4:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And by the way. It could be argued that the only reason Boaz gave her any special interest is because of her modesty and kindness. If she had shown up at his field wearing a tight Tahari suit and 3-inch heels- I have a feeling Jewish history might have proceeded in quite a different way.

4:16 PM  
Anonymous five towns rabbi said...

Huh huh huh??? Insane? Ignorant? Bemoaning? What in the world are you talking about? In Orthomom's seeming absence, I'll step in. I haven't seen anyone bemoaning the message of Tzniyut, just that there is certainly another message that is relevant to our community in addition to that of modesty.

Why the scare quotes around "other" Jews, BTW? Do you feel they have such a quality of "otherness" that encouraging acceptance doesn't bear emphasizing????

That our community may not have gotten the point regarding modesty in a fashion that you are willing to deem up to your standards may be true. But do you truly feel that the community has "gotten the point" when it comes to acceptance of our fellow Jews? Hah. Halevai were it so.

And anon 4:01? Your outdated views are what creates mentalities that encourage the exclusion of Baalei Teshuva, kids who are "at risk", etc. Do you think that, particularly in the wake of the recent local tragic suicide of a teen who was a wonderful, sweet Neshama, yet was excluded because he was "different" should give you and your ilk a wakeup call??? Tzniyut is certainly important - but more important than making people feel like they are part of our community??

Wake up, take a look around you. There are people in need of love in the Five Towns, and every other Jewish community in the world. To say that in 2006, acceptance is not an important message to impart to our children shows a complete inability to see the big picture.

Yes, our women require modesty. But our children require lessons in love and acceptance. Each and every day, and at every opportunity. Sadly, people like you just encourage one missed opportunity after another.

Chaval.

4:19 PM  
Anonymous anonymous #2 said...

"Anonymous said...

And by the way. It could be argued that the only reason Boaz gave her any special interest is because of her modesty and kindness. If she had shown up at his field wearing a tight Tahari suit and 3-inch heels- I have a feeling Jewish history might have proceeded in quite a different way."

And by the way. It could be argued that the only reason Boaz gave her any special interest was because she climbed under his blanket with him while no one was looking. Had she followed the lessons that we impart to our daughters - I have a feeling Jewish history might have proceeded in quite a different way.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Woo hoo five towns rabbi!!

4:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for supporting my comment about ignorance with your comments. Let me try this again. The point is that CHAZAL clearly read the story the way that I am saying- not the way that you are saying. Read the midrashim. Yes, accepting other people is an important message- but not a message that really comes out of the story of Ruth. Frankly, if anything you could derive the exact opposite message. Which is what I was trying to explain above with my second comment. I don't see why the schools should try to stuff in some message that really is NOT the point of the story and is arguably actually severely limited or qualified by the story itself.

4:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Again, you arrogantly cry ignorance at all but yourself, who is the truly ignorant one. I have heard many a Talmid Chochom speak of the theme of acceptance that is inherent in Megillat Rut. That Mashiach Ben David is an offspring of our nation's most famous convert is certainly an example of the heights to which the "odd man out" can reach. I am simply dumbfounded that you are actually coming out and denying that.

5:15 PM  
Anonymous five towns rabbi said...

Anonymous said...

Thank you for supporting my comment about ignorance with your comments. Let me try this again. The point is that CHAZAL clearly read the story the way that I am saying- not the way that you are saying. Read the midrashim. Yes, accepting other people is an important message- but not a message that really comes out of the story of Ruth. Frankly, if anything you could derive the exact opposite message. Which is what I was trying to explain above with my second comment. I don't see why the schools should try to stuff in some message that really is NOT the point of the story and is arguably actually severely limited or qualified by the story itself.


This is completely absurd. An important theme of Megillat Rut, as recounted many times over by Chazal, is that of chessed. Naomi shows Rut chessed, Boaz shows Rut chessed, and Rut shows Naomi chessed in return. In adition to that theme,there is certainly an emphasis given to showing Chessed to those who are foreign. The wording of the Megillah stresses again and again how foreign rut was to Boaz and all those around them. Yet, Boaz chooses her, forst as a designee of his kindness, and then as a spouse.

Another important theme of Megillat Tut, as recounted by Chazal, is Kabbalat HaTorah, and since Rut is the only convert (post-Sinai) to appear in the written Torah, she parallels the acceptance of the Torah by the people of Israel on a personal level.

These are two wonderful messages to take away from Rut. Why is it necessary to force the tzniut issue when there are questions that can be asked by our daughters vis-a-vis how Rut behaved with Boaz the night she approached him? (Yes, yes, times were different, she did what she had to do, I am aware. But that does not change the fact that Rut did some things which we would not like out daghters to emulate today).

So my daughters do not get the take you are so enamored of, "Mr. Angry Anonymous". They get Orthomom's.

5:51 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Wow. Looks like I can't leave my blog unsupervised for a minute.

Five Towns rabbi: I agree with everything you said. Thanks for holding down the fort.

Anon: You are dead wrong. No one here is against modesty being one of the take-away messages of megillat Ruth. We are just questioning the need for it to be the only real take-away message. And that is precisely what I heard from my daughter. You contracdict yourself in your call for continued reiteration of the Tznius theme. If the theme keeps getting repeated, over and over again, from teachers and pulpit Rabbis, as you say, and people are still flouting their exhortations to dress modestly as wildly as you claim, then I question the sagacity of stressing it yet again, when there are so many other valuable lessons to learn from Ruth.

To tar everyone but yourself as ignorant, is, to borrow the word of a wise anonymous commenter who commented upthread, very arrogant of you.

I want my daughters to learn about Tznius. And I will try to reinforce every bit of learning about it that they receive in school. But I also rely on their teachers to use an opportunity to teach them about the importance of accepting their fellow Jew. And I am entitled to bemoan the fact that they did not learn that.

6:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to see the schools teach the girls that being modest is not the same as being frumpy and that being cute is not goyishe. I'm tired of seeing so many unattractive Ortho girls/women. Something needs to be done about it.

10:02 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'If the theme keeps getting repeated, over and over again, from teachers and pulpit Rabbis, as you say, and people are still flouting their exhortations to dress modestly as wildly as you claim, then I question the sagacity of stressing it yet again'

The radical idea that one should stop doing what has been proven not to work and maybe try something else is rare in both the secular world and the frum world. I think you should start a yeshiva, although I don't know if the world is ready for it.

11:48 PM  
Blogger eem said...

We learn that in Rut there is "no (speaking of) things that are allowed or things that are forbidden....why was it written? To teach the importance of chessed." I think that speaks for itself, yes?

1:49 AM  
Anonymous jeruslemom said...

I think I see the communication problem between Anon 4:01 and 5T Rabbi, et al. Anon is insisting that chazal's reading is the only reading worth teaching or knowing, and since (as he ostenibly suggests; as I haven't gone through every single midrash on the megillah, I can't say for sure) Chazal's only message is tzniut (guess he didnt see the Torah Temimah on how "amech ami" and how this is Rut actually accepting all sorts of very specific halachot, but, whatever) this conversation about acceptance is inane, etc..

In any case, many people actually read the peshat and, horrors, take away their own understandings and messages from the actual pesukimg themselves! Shocking, isn't it? A plain reading of the story certainly seems to suggest that Boaz and Naomi's acceptance of Rut and Rut being the progenitor of David haMelech and eventually moshiach could be clear signposts for acceptance and loving another, even if s/he is quite different from oneself. Anyone who deliberately ignores these points is just insisting on wearing blinders.

7:31 AM  
Anonymous Typo Lad said...

For the record, my daughter's school (formerly my own) very much stresses the fact that Rut was a georet and the fact that Dovid HaMelech descended from her. They also stress her Chesed. In fact, I don't recall too much focus on Tzniut. Yes, there was something on how she bent down "properly"... but too much focus raises questiones of how, exactly, it was tzniut to go to the threshing floor that night.

7:58 AM  
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12:01 PM  
Anonymous TheLonelyVoice said...

I've heard it said that Yankee Stadium and Malchut Beit David are both "houses that Ruth built"....

3:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Two points that will hopefully be a positive contribution to the discussion.

A: Perhaps this is the message that your daughter identified with most from all her teacher taught her. Maybe your daughter is naturally refined so she gravitated toward remembering this idea vividly. I'm sure the teacher spoke of chesed and geirus, but the tznius message is very memorable since it has a kinetic, auditory and visual component.

B: Here's how I make Shavuos an easier holiday psychologically when its two days of walking on eggshells etc. True kaballas Hamitzvos requires mesiras nefesh. Having my husband and sons stay up all night and learn is definitely mesiras nefesh for the two of us. I can't think of a better message to give over to my kids than to relish the experience with a positive attitude.

7:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 4:16:

Tight Tahari suit??!! Did you stop shopping in 1990? At least get your ridiculous analogies right, i.e., Dior, D&G . . . Geez, someone's clearly not from the 5Ts.

(Yes, I'm being facitious)

11:04 AM  
Blogger blueenclave said...

Comments on Megillas Ruth were spot-on. (Got here from Ezzie's) Did not read 46 comments but Sfas Emes observed that part of why Megillas Ruth is read on Shavuos is to show that the actions of Torah scholars are also Torah.

5:54 PM  
Blogger blueenclave said...

I stayed up from 2:00 to 5:00 and then davened shacharis. The experience of staying up all night made the holiday more meaningful. As I said on DB's, not all the way, because Pujols got hurt.

5:55 PM  
Blogger blueenclave said...

And on Sunday night, I began the parsha and was crabby before the end of the first aliyah because I could not pin down what responsibility was "mishmeret" and what was "nsa".

6:00 PM  
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2:11 PM  
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3:29 PM  

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