A Few Points
Just a few points regarding the Five Towns Kashrut Controversy:
1. My Rav (along with many others, judging from the e-mails and comments I have receieved on the matter), has advised against continuing to patronize Gourmet Glatt - though he made it very clear that no Kashering of pots or utensils needs to take place. He went so far as to rule that members of his congregation not even purchase groceries from the store (a full boycott, in essence), as did at least 3 other local Rabbanim that I know of, according to my sources. I have not yet made a decision regarding the boycott, though I will readily admit that I have been buying my meat elsewhere since the first whiff of this scandal emerged, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. As far as I have managed to deduce from the information I have received confidentially as well as from what has been publicly released, I feel that Gourmet Glatt was involved in at least some misleading of their customers as far as the proper labeling of chicken is concerned. Though there may now be further safeguards in place to prevent that happening, I still have concerns regarding the level of supervision at the store, and will reserve judgement on whether to resume buying meat there as more of this story plays out.
As far as the boycott is concerned, I am not at all sure I am comfortable with a boycott. Whether the store has some questions regarding their Kashrut, I certainly don't think that forbidding the buying of groceries that are clearly marked with a hashgacha is within the purview of the vaad. In my opinion, the Vaad is an organization that is responsible for certifying local food purveyors. They should not necessarily be dictating that the community should not be buying groceries from a vendor who they feel has not played by their rules. All of that being the case, I find it difficult to defy my Rav's authority on a matter such as Kashrut. Also, the owners of the store in question openly flouted the authority of the community's collective Rabbinic body - which certainly makes me inclined to understand why the Vaad felt the need to act in such an authoritative manner. Still, the boycott seems heavy-handed, and I think I need a better reason to be supplied for it than the ones provided up until now. Feel free to make your own judgements. OrthoDad has, and he to some extent disagrees with mine. He pretty much feels that we should not be patronizing the store at all, as recommended by our Rav, but has told me that he will allow me to make the decision for our family. I will (probably) post here when I come to a decision on the matter, though I will probably not buy from there in the interim.
2. Now for some housekeeping: One thing that has shocked and appalled me about the comments on this issue is the absolute maliciousness that I have been seeing. Let's be clear. This issue may clearly be one that is loaded, and it evidently stirs up many differing reactions among my readers. That said, the disgusting nature of the personal attacks against both the community Rabbanim as well as the store owners in question has been completely unacceptable. First, there are issues of Loshon Hara as well as Motzi Shem Ra here which are being violated regularly. Please stop immediately. Second, the rabid anti-Rabbanim rhetoric that is being spewed here is just awful, and I would prefer that my readers find another blog on which to practice it. I have no problem saying that many of the comments which viciously attack particular Rabbanim from the community are coming from a handful of IP addresses, and therefore highly suspicious. I am not impressed with the commenting prowess of the commenter(s) in question. The same person saying it again and again and again, more and more obnoxiously, doesn't make it true, or more convincing. It just makes it rude.
Please, everyone. Keep it civil and within the boundaries of normal discourse. If you wouldn't say it to your friend over the the Shabbos table with others present, don't say it here. I am well aware that people may have different standards of Shabbos table propriety than the Orthofamily, but please err on the side of caution here on my blog (and at my Shabbos table, for that matter). These comment threads are for airing out issues and bringing different opinions to light. Not for hurling invectives and insults. Keep that in mind as you contemplate hitting "publish". I know I try to.
1. My Rav (along with many others, judging from the e-mails and comments I have receieved on the matter), has advised against continuing to patronize Gourmet Glatt - though he made it very clear that no Kashering of pots or utensils needs to take place. He went so far as to rule that members of his congregation not even purchase groceries from the store (a full boycott, in essence), as did at least 3 other local Rabbanim that I know of, according to my sources. I have not yet made a decision regarding the boycott, though I will readily admit that I have been buying my meat elsewhere since the first whiff of this scandal emerged, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. As far as I have managed to deduce from the information I have received confidentially as well as from what has been publicly released, I feel that Gourmet Glatt was involved in at least some misleading of their customers as far as the proper labeling of chicken is concerned. Though there may now be further safeguards in place to prevent that happening, I still have concerns regarding the level of supervision at the store, and will reserve judgement on whether to resume buying meat there as more of this story plays out.
As far as the boycott is concerned, I am not at all sure I am comfortable with a boycott. Whether the store has some questions regarding their Kashrut, I certainly don't think that forbidding the buying of groceries that are clearly marked with a hashgacha is within the purview of the vaad. In my opinion, the Vaad is an organization that is responsible for certifying local food purveyors. They should not necessarily be dictating that the community should not be buying groceries from a vendor who they feel has not played by their rules. All of that being the case, I find it difficult to defy my Rav's authority on a matter such as Kashrut. Also, the owners of the store in question openly flouted the authority of the community's collective Rabbinic body - which certainly makes me inclined to understand why the Vaad felt the need to act in such an authoritative manner. Still, the boycott seems heavy-handed, and I think I need a better reason to be supplied for it than the ones provided up until now. Feel free to make your own judgements. OrthoDad has, and he to some extent disagrees with mine. He pretty much feels that we should not be patronizing the store at all, as recommended by our Rav, but has told me that he will allow me to make the decision for our family. I will (probably) post here when I come to a decision on the matter, though I will probably not buy from there in the interim.
2. Now for some housekeeping: One thing that has shocked and appalled me about the comments on this issue is the absolute maliciousness that I have been seeing. Let's be clear. This issue may clearly be one that is loaded, and it evidently stirs up many differing reactions among my readers. That said, the disgusting nature of the personal attacks against both the community Rabbanim as well as the store owners in question has been completely unacceptable. First, there are issues of Loshon Hara as well as Motzi Shem Ra here which are being violated regularly. Please stop immediately. Second, the rabid anti-Rabbanim rhetoric that is being spewed here is just awful, and I would prefer that my readers find another blog on which to practice it. I have no problem saying that many of the comments which viciously attack particular Rabbanim from the community are coming from a handful of IP addresses, and therefore highly suspicious. I am not impressed with the commenting prowess of the commenter(s) in question. The same person saying it again and again and again, more and more obnoxiously, doesn't make it true, or more convincing. It just makes it rude.
Please, everyone. Keep it civil and within the boundaries of normal discourse. If you wouldn't say it to your friend over the the Shabbos table with others present, don't say it here. I am well aware that people may have different standards of Shabbos table propriety than the Orthofamily, but please err on the side of caution here on my blog (and at my Shabbos table, for that matter). These comment threads are for airing out issues and bringing different opinions to light. Not for hurling invectives and insults. Keep that in mind as you contemplate hitting "publish". I know I try to.
posted by orthomom at 9:40 PM
124 Comments:
Good on you for your second point. I think your first point isnt actually one point but more of the back and forth that is going on in many peoples heads. i have the same feelings as you but i will probably not shop there. i find it hard to defy my LORs directive. my feeling is also that though you think the boycoitt is heavy handed, maybe thats because we dont really know how bad the situation really was in GG. just an idea i have.
Well firstly thanks for setting the rules on this blog, it was obviously necessary.
Secondly, I would ask everyone to stop speculating and go find answers to your questions. Go into GG and ask questions if you have any and then make your decision. I did and I am satisfied with the decision that I made. I am happy with the new Hashgacha, I was happy with Rabbi Pincus' Hashgacha and I am happy with Rabbi Ahkenazy's hashgacha. I asked questions of all of them and got my answers.
My Rav did not get involved in the controversy, but I will still not sleep well until this whole mess is put to rest and the community is reunited once again.
Personally I feel it is a situation when one paints themselves into a corner and then doesn't know how to get out.
Kudos for your public repremand. I was looking for a button that was labeled "Potch" to smack those bloggers besmirching the names of our rabbonim. How can you compare ANY jew to the Taliban, never mind a Rov? A bottle of soap in the mouth with a splash of pepper should do it. I suggest you do all your Yom Kippur Al Chaits 10 times over to learn what not to say or do!
Agreed. Many people need to carefully review the "Al Chaits" - no pun intended, of course.
Thank you Orthomom! I don't understand why you allowed the previous comment section to go on to such absurd lengths. Couldn't you have simply deleted all of it? Anyway, I definitely prefer you making this clear to hopefully deter people from sharing the venom we have seen here.
I will respect the judgement of my rabbi as I do with many even more sensitive issues. I know what I know, and I know that there is alot I don't know. I don't feel like I need to know everything. To the contrary, I would love if this situation would just go away already. I should point out, though, that my rabbi didn't call for a boycott. He simply said that the unanimous vote of the community rabbis should give us pause before patronizing the store. I later clarified with him that he was not referring to the Fruity Pebbles, but practically speaking does not see why people would shop there over Brachs or Supersol if you are so limited in what you can buy.
well, though orthomom provides the forum we are responsible for our own actions. kudos to OM for laying the ground rules, but we have oursleves to blam when it gets out of hand. and it did in this case.
" I should point out, though, that my rabbi didn't call for a boycott. He simply said that the unanimous vote of the community rabbis should give us pause before patronizing the store. I later clarified with him that he was not referring to the Fruity Pebbles, but practically speaking does not see why people would shop there over Brachs or Supersol if you are so limited in what you can buy."
Many local rabbanim felt otherwise, and called for a boycott. Rabbi Weinberger (Aish Kodesh) actually sent out an e-mail advising us not to patronize gg at all whatsoever.
From Anononymous (and not ashamed) from previous blog entry:
OM:
#1, Paragraph 1 - "The Rabbis told me the Kashrus is fine, but that may not be good enough for me."
#1, Paragraph 2 - The Rabbis told me to boycott, but I'm not certain I'm going to listen on this one either.
#2 "The anti-Rabbonim rhetoric has no place on my blog."
Yes, OM, I get your point, but I think you need to clarify what you mean by "Loshon Hara," "Motzi Shem Ra" and "rabid anti-Rabbanim rhetoric" because I do not want (and do not want you) to violate your policies :)
It is a disgrace that Rabbis will go so low to deprive other yedim parnusa. Hashem makes the decision on parnusa and no Rabbi can do that.
(not ashamed again)
OM: I don't think Talmid was paying attention. Talmid would prefer to not think for (her)(him)self and would rather this just all go away. I think s/he put the wrong address in the Nav.
A new Rav has entered the town Rabbi Kravitz from the OU . Do a google upon him -quite impressive
"It is a disgrace that Rabbis will go so low to deprive other yedim parnusa. Hashem makes the decision on parnusa and no Rabbi can do that."
Looks like the visiters from teh same IP address are back.
My Rav said the same but as long as a reliable Hasgacha is in place So whats the problem?
I don't know anything about Rabbi Kravitz, and my sense is he's very knowledgeable about kashrus, but when I googled him, it seems like he has hechsherim in Florida and Mexico (and now Cedarhurst), but he seems to work for the OU in New York. What's the deal?
I don't know the specifics of this case (even with what I've read here, on Krum, and elsewhere), but what has led to problems in other communities with Kashrus was people continuing to buy from stores which the Va'ad specifically asked people not to. This led to a near-dissolution of the Va'ad, as other store-owners would question why they were paying for the Va'ad while their competitors (or even other stores who sell different items) were not.
The importance of boycotts are generally directed more at keeping the storeowner in line with the Va'ad's wishes to prevent such an occurence.
very good post. but even though you say you havent made a choice re the boycott, as long as you dont shop there while you are thinking about it, you seem to have made a decision. whoch is fine. (i have also made a decision to go with the boycott)
Aren't boycotts illegal?Before our rabbonim order boycotts ,they should remember that the Arabs boycott us.The Germans Boycotted the Jews before the holocaust.Stuff like this can come back and kick us in the teeth.
I guess the deal is he is so knowledgeable he was able to set up a Kashrus organization in Mexico, in Miami and have enough capable and responsible people oversee it so that he can live here and work here and just go down there a few days a month to double check on the operations. How often does the Rav Hamachsir visit the stores here? I was told not more than a few times a month if that much. So what IS the problem?
The importance of boycotts are generally directed more at keeping the storeowner in line with the Va'ad's wishes to prevent such an occurence.
But if the VAAD is not coming forth with answers to the community, and the community is dissatisfied with the way it conducts itself, especially in light of the issues raised and their avoidance in answering the issues, why should the community comply with their decree? And wouldn't the prices come down at the register if there was some competition of Kashrus supervision in the neighborhood?
I think that the stores don't have to fear the boycott, they should fear being the next one threatened to be forced to sell. That was unconscionable and so is the boycott.
But time will tell if the VAAD will gain or lose with this latest move and it won't be decided here on this blog and no matter how much the Rabbonim feel that they have the power to control the neighborhood, it just isn't going to happen. Loyal customers are still going to continue buying there because they believe that the Bolenders were treated unfairly and nothing that the Rabbonim are going to say are going to change their minds. Probably, because we feel that the Rabbonim are biased in favor of RYE and haven't really spoken to the Bollenders, Rabbi Ashkenazy or Rabbi Pincus at all. So if they haven't spoken to all parties involved and are basing their decisions just on what the VAAD told them, it might not be a full unbiased decision.
The fact that the entire area has one vaad with one standard is excellent. The rabbis on the vaad encompasses nearly (if not all) the shuls from the right to the left. The vaad’s silence should be taken as nothing more then just being professional. Since the kasherus is on their shoulders, let them set the standards for it
Setting the standards is the easy part. Insuring that those standards are met takes a fully involved, full-time administrator who is available for sheilot and emergencies. If the Five Towns and Far Rockaway are better off with one Vaad, aren't we also better off with someone who only runs one Vaad?
Kravitz left Miami over a year ago. He actually lived there for a short period, resigned his position because he could not live there for personal reasons and returned to NY.
For whatever it is worth-ny wife hasn't bought fresh meat at GG for a long time -she hasn't trusted the place-but she states what right does the Vaad have to say you can't buy anything at GG-they have no objections to buying at Stop and Shop, King Kullen, Key Food etc with no hashgachot- stuff under hashgacha.
Such overreaching leads to lack of respect. Obviously Orthodad has a different opinion.
But time will tell if the VAAD will gain or lose with this latest move and it won't be decided here on this blog and no matter how much the Rabbonim feel that they have the power to control the neighborhood, it just isn't going to happen. Loyal customers are still going to continue buying there because they believe that the Bolenders were treated unfairly and nothing that the Rabbonim are going to say are going to change their minds
Agreed the success or failure of the Rabbis on the Vaad is tied to whether or not GG succeeds wo them. It will be an interesting test lemamaseh one way or the other of the power of local Rabbanan. If they succeed in driving GG out of business they win-if they don't they lose. We'll know in a couiple of years.
How often does the Rav Hamachsir visit the stores here? I was told not more than a few times a month if that much. So what IS the problem?
I once stayed for Shabbos-someplace about 2000 miles from here in a house where the husband was leaving Sunday morning to make his visits to a bunch of plants that he was visiting every few months-hashgacha for a major nationwide Kashrut Organization-nothing wrong..Yotzei vnichnas.
I later clarified with him that he was not referring to the Fruity Pebbles, but practically speaking does not see why people would shop there over Brachs or Supersol if you are so limited in what you can buy.
It appears your ?Rabbi agrees with my wife-why are Fruity Pebbles -whatever that is different than any other sealed package from a manufacturer that one could buy at any store. Not trusting the fresh meat and maybe fish I can see-but if they are selling apple Juice, etc who cares.
I must have missed the Fruity Pebbles carveout...
From: Aish Kodesh
Subject: Kashrus Notice
We regret to inform you that as of Erev Shabbos, Gourmet Glatt has lost the Hechsher of the 5 Towns Vaad Hakashrus. Rav Weinberger has informed us that any items purchased before such time are able to be eaten. Similarly no kashering of dishes or pots is necessary. Rav Weinberger recommends that people should not continue to patronize this establishment.
Congregation Aish Kodesh
Probably most of the invectives were "hurled" in response to other comments-not to what Orthomom herself wrote.It takes 2 to tangle.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
This twisted author has asked OM to remove the above repeat post copied and pasted by another commenter, primarily because the formatting is all messed up.
Not sure what you mean in your "anyway" paragraph. First, please explain your first sentence so I can respond on point. Second, I assume OrthoMom is not "ashamed," yet she does not reveal her identity.
And, of course, I can only assume you ARE ashamed if you did not share YOUR name with this blog and you believe that not sharing a real name translates into being ashamed.
If you are representing yourself as someone who is more qualified to exposit daas torah, than all of the rabbonim in the community, you couldn't possibly expect anyone to take you seriously without knowing your credentials.
http:/pro-vaad-blog.blogspot.com
"The fact that the entire area has one vaad with one standard is excellent."
The very heart of the matter is that there is not 1 Standard.
Can we shop any other products in the store?
what about the pvtly owned stores
within the store?
some people hve to much time on their hands, even on a sunday toi sepnd so much time researching and writing about this topic. Come on already.
"Anonymous said...
http:/pro-vaad-blog.blogspot.com
7:32 AM "
Unless u allow anonymous posts, the pro vaad blog will not have any comments
Let me get this straight. I can buy kosher groceries at any non-kosher and non-Jewish store in the world execept Gourmet Glatt?
Come on. It is so obvious that this is NOT about Kashrus, it's all about power and, of course, money. And we're supposed to believe the Vaad is objective?
1. stop and shop and king kullen and all these other places state openly that they sell kosher and non-kosher items. GG does not.
2. besides the lashon harah and motzei shem ra and everything that is going on, there is also kavod harabonim that we need to keep in mind.
3. the owners of GG are going through enough right now. i see no reason for the Vaad to continue to bring things to light for further embarrassment. the steps taken served to either make a point or correct a wrong. no one said anything about character assasination.
But both sides must take stock of their action both to the indviduals, the organizations and the the larger community to which all of them are beholden.
The whole situation (both sides) does not pass the stink test.
I was in GG at 9:30 this morning and it was empty. There were no more than 7 customers in the store and the employees looked sad and bleak. I dont know if 9:30 on Monday morning is usually a quiet time but it was like a ghost town. I hope that people are not actually staying away.
The issue here is that not even the vaad (which has more then 1 standard) deos not know what to do. The Vaad Rabbis can not even unite.
Whts is the problem with buying packaged/sealed goods which gg has no control over.
Whts is the problem with buying packaged/sealed goods which gg has no control over.
continued...
isn't it better to give some parnasah to a jew who is suffering over a conglomortae store??
Contrary to some of the posters here, no ones Rav is infallible (I believe another religion already staked that claim). The fact that some shuls instituted a boycott while others didn’t indicates that it’s more political than kashrus related. All the Rabbis of the orthodox shuls in the neighborhood are members of the Vaad. To have some call for a boycott while others do not doesn’t pass the smell test. .
I do not know nor have I ever spoken to the owners of GG. However, I will certainly continue to shop there. I believe that what the Vaad is doing is 100% wrong. If they found a problem with the kashrus than say so. To force a business to sell is just plain wrong and way outside their scope of their responsibility. I don’t pretend to know more about kashrus than the Vaad. However, for the Vaad to give a business four months notice to sell, while at the same time continue to provide certification also doesn’t pass the smell test. How can a store continue to be kosher until some arbitrary date in the future? It makes one wonder -- if GG were to make a substantial “donation” to the Vaad do you think this whole problem would go away?
This is so sad. I feel like this is such a loss to the community. While I feel that Rabbi Kravitz is a legitimate hashgacha, I also feel that it is wrong to defy your Rav's psak. My gut feeling tells me that decision is mostly political, and the community will suffering as a result. Nevertheless, I will go along with it. I would be so upset if there was even one friend of mine who would not eat in my house because I shop in GG. It's not worth it.
I understand (and appreciate) your dilema. Question -- Going forward, are you going to ask your hosts where they shop before you eat in their house?
I trust my friends, but if they go to a different shul they may still buy at GG. What do you do?
No one ever said GG was not kosher.
Can anyone clarify. at YIW the Rabbi only said after friday GG is not under VAAD. He never said boycott. Who beside R Weinberg (who it is claimed is not a vaad member)said boycott??
Too bad....
Now the Aish crowd will have to buy their Kool-Aid somewhere else. :)
I hope no one drinks the cool aid, and uses the brain in their head, and not the one they sit on to guide their lives.
But the Rabbis have to stop hideing behind the Skirt/Tallis of the Vaad account to their community. A Pasak has to have reasoning and articulation. A mere conslusion without an explaination flies in the face of everything we hold sacred about Rabbinical authority. (this is not one of those topics that has to wait for Moshiach).
For those who forgot, in 2000 we hade a VAAD uproar, and the press lached on then too.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9507E3D71E3DF93BA35753C1A9669C8B63
"First, there are issues of Loshon Hara as well as Motzi Shem Ra here which are being violated regularly. Please stop immediately."
Can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. That goes for "rabbonim" and innate bloggers who think they are authorities on everything.
(Oh and Lashon Hora is a dastardly sin and not a shield to protect the shortcomings of evildoers, rabbis, frum people or otherwise).
The times article from 2000 was right on the money. The Vaad has no business getting involved in non-kashrus related issues.
Just tell me if the food is kosher; I couldn't care less about the owners do or wear. If they follow the guidelines for kashrus set by the Vaad than that is all that matters. What's next, "my black hat is blacker than yours?"
Do these rabbis understand that boycotts are illegal in the US?
Do they understand that they are ruining the parnassas of people.
Do they understand that they preach"LO TAAMOD AL DAM REYECHA" while practicing the opposite?
Which daas torah did they consult?Do they feel that they are so great that they can issue such a ruling without consulting our gedolim.
Did they give Bolender a chance to give his part of the story?
Do they understand that what goes around comes around?
Do they understand that when Bollender sues them,they will be scrutinized by his lawyers?
Can they withstand the scrutiny?
What happens if when they are on the stand the lawyer asks
DO YOU REPORT YOUR CHOMETZ SELLING INCOME OR YOU SEDER KEDUSHIN INCOME TO THE IRS?
WHY IS YOU HOUSE NOT ON THE NASSAU COUNTY TAX ROLLS?
WHEN YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WENT TO THE HOTEL FOR FREE LAST PESACH,DID YOU REPORT THE VALUE ON YOUR TAX RETURNS.
To quote the worst Jew who ever lived"Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone".
In other words,people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
"I understand (and appreciate) your dilema. Question -- Going forward, are you going to ask your hosts where they shop before you eat in their house? "
GOOD QUESTION - We have not decided yet. I'm hoping this will be resolved and we don't have to face it. That is an example of how this can rip a community apart. I have always trusted the kashrus of everyone in my circle, children's friends etc.
Re: Psak
Are you saying that we have to agree 100% of the time with a Rabbi -- no matter what -- or else we have to leave the shul and go somewhere else?
Isn't that a just a bit harsh?
i think once you ask a rav a question you have to adhere to his answer. you can't shop around until you find someone who will give you the answer you want.
Anon of 12:22pm:
Boycotts are not illegal in the US as long as they are not motivated by racial or gender discrimination. There are boycotts of major corporations all the time.
As for your courtroom questions, Perry Mason, the rabbanim would not have to answer any of those because they are irrelevant to the case ("hypocracy," which is the point you are trying to make, is not sufficiently relevant under the law).
Finally, OM, very nice job in responding to some of the unfortunate comments that have appeared on your blog of late.
I am very saddened by this whole problem. I think we will end up like Brooklyn. Even with all the diversity in the five towns there was a sense of cohesion in large part due to the central vaad. Once that is questioned the community will divide until everyone questions everyone else's level of frumkeit. "I'm frummer because I don't eat in this establishment and would NEVER use that caterer" I hope that does not become part of 5-towns lexicon.
To flatbush renegade:
You are wrong. I have a feeling who OM's rav is from previous postings, and if I'm right he didn't issue it as a psak. He made a strong recommendation. Also, when asked about whether groceries could be bought there for convenience purposes (being parked next door, etc), he was less firm. In addition, I have a very close relationship with another local Rav with a large following, and he too issued it as a strong recommendation and not a psak. When I asked him if I could still go there for convenience purposes, he said he would prefer I didn't, but that's it. He didn't say that to me when I asked if I could put semisolid food in my warming drawer on shabbos. In that instance he said a straight NO. So before you use words like psak, get your story straight.
I ask the same Rav (a community shul Rav) all of my shealot regarding kashrut, taharat hamishpacha etc. and when I receive an answer I follow it. I do this regardless of whether I hear from friends who daven at other shuls that their Rav might have given another answer when asked the same or a similar question. They follow their Rav and so they should. Since both my Rav and their Rav have good reputations and qualifications to issue a psak, when I go to their house for lunch on Shabbat, I eat in it without question. They do the same for me. We each have a chezkat Kashrut and we each follow our own Mara Datra. When my Rav answers a question with the answer I was NOT hoping for, I follow it anyway. I do not engage in self serving reasoning to try to say that he had some ulterior motive for his psak nor do I believe he did. If I thought he did, I would have to find another Rav whom I could trust. But I trust my Rav. When I hear that not only my Rav, but a broad group of community Rabanim have decided that Vaad certification needs to be removed from an establishment I take that at face value, so much more so because of the unity involved. But it would be enough for me if only my Rav said it, because I trust my Rav, and I respect him. If I didn't, I guess that I should then go find a Rav whom do trust. This new Rav who is giving the hechser in lieu of the Vaad may be very trustworthty and qualified (I understand both to be the case). But he is not MY rav. Should I choose to start going to him to ask him all of my She'elot, and invite him to speak at my smachot, then I would follow his psak on GG as well. But I do not intend to do that. Becuase I already have a Rav that I trust. For all of those who do not/cannot trust their own Rav, I hope that you can all find a Rav that you do respect, and whose views you do not dismiss as politics. And then you can ask him. And if you are determined to go it alone without the guidance of a Rav (i.e. you do not WANT to find a Rav), even in the area of Kashrut of all things, then I think you have bigger issues than whether to shop at GG.
If OM mislabeled a "reccomendation" as a "RULING" let her make the correction. Your "feelings" as to who her Rav is, and what this assumed Rav meant, have no bearing on what OM "actually" posted.
However, he is correct. Let's split the difference and call it a very strong recommendation that he was not even so strong on when approached in person.
"I understand (and appreciate) your dilema. Question -- Going forward, are you going to ask your hosts where they shop before you eat in their house? "
This misses the target completely. NOBODY is saying, or ever said, that GG is not kosher. In the past the vaad backed it completley, and now it is covered by R Kravitz.
As I understand it, the Rabbonim want to get the GG owners out of the food industry in their kehilla, and the way they are achieving that is by telling their kehilla not to support the store. If the store can't even sell bug-free lettuce or OU entemins, then they will be forced to close down and take their butcher shop with them. Then R Kravitz will leave and the vaad of the 5T will be the sole and unified authority on kashrus in the 5T once again.
And they all lived happily ever after.
I realize that I introduced some new thoughts into this discussion. Do you think I am way off the mark? Why haven't other people mentioned this?
I don't mind listening to a R Gamliel, but do you ever get the impression that your local congregational rabbi is just an overgrown kollel yingle who is very insecure about most things and just follows the crowd? In that case, I would trust his recall of a halacha in shulchan aruch but I wouldn't rely on his upshot of a local controversy.
I guess, I would be willing to trust my Rav on any issue where he would have the playtzes (wide shoulders) to pasken against the crowd. But if he conveniently paskens like all the other Rabbonim in town then I have no reason to assume that he actually thought it out for himself. Especially where he hems and haws and refuses to divulge information.
The questing I have is why have the prices in the other stores gone up?
mrs renegade:
Is there a point where a Rav can be said to have overstepped the bounds of his authority? e.g. can a Rav really RULE not to listen to a particular song and not provide reasons? I can understand a recommendation, but a binding RULING? (assuming there is no arayos, shfichus damim, nibul peh etc etc). So then you ask why is he banning the song - who knows, maybe politics or something.
flatbush renegade:
thats your opinion. I think OM is not pretending shes smarter then her rav, just questioning hus recommendation as too hard on teh storeowner. my rabbi makes a recommendation that my wife cover all of her hair. she does not comply with that ruling. do you really recommend i find a rav who says the fistful of hair she takes out is ok when i am happy with his overall leadership? you are out of touch with teh world.
flatbushrenegade said...
B/T/W, It's Mr. Renegade, MRS. Renegade is home taking care of the kids. Anyone that busy hasn't any time for blogging.
just in case we thought you were a reasonable, nonjudgemental person, youve proven your true self.
"ust in case we thought you were a reasonable, nonjudgemental person, youve proven your true self."
what? i dont get it. its not like i see OM herself spending all of her time here.
He could suggest, or reccomend things like that, and possibly only to certain individuals within his congregation, but to issue a Psak to a whole congregation who are not at that level, would be very irresponsible IMO.
Likewise here, if the Rabbi "suggets", or only ibdicates that the "vaad is no longer responsible" without taking a position on the kashrut, then 1 can assume that they are permitted to partonize, with a wink of course.
Mr Renegade,
The fatal flaw in your approach to rabbanus is that you assume that somewhere out there is a perfect Rav who always thinks through the ramifications of every mussar drasha and pulpit speech and psak halacha, which leads to 'either accept the psak or get a new rav.' Well, maybe such a rav does indeed exist.
But they don't exist in every local community for every shade of black hat.
At some point, people fall into a shul b/c they fit in with the other mispallelim and they like the Rav's background and general hashkafa, in addition to being comfortable with the Rav's 'bedside manner' (varmkeit, personable-ility etc) and integrity. They are not going to drop the Rav over small potatoes, but they aren't going to be mevater on the kartufeluch either.
What works for you personally is very nice. But don't go off spouting shitas that cannot work for most of the random people that visit this website. (know your audience and be pragmatic)
Since the kasherus is on their shoulders, let them set the standards for it
Agreed, and since each and everyone of them stated that it had nothing to do with Kashrus, they overstepped their boundaries and whatever decision that they made, they made it outside the realms of a Kashrus organization.
I think some people are taking the issue of the all-powerful all-knowing Rav a little too seriously. Obey at all costs. They are never wrong. C’mon -- is it just me or does this sound a lot like the Moonies? The Vaad is a monopoly and they are trying to protect their turf.
The bottom line is that the Vaad is trying to drive GG out of business and it’s not kashrus related. If it was, we can assume that they wouldn’t have been given a 4-moth grace period to sell the store. Who cares if the owners are shomer shabbos (like the store in Monsey?), or whether they married a Jew or not? The Vaad should ONLY be concerned with the kashrus of the food in the store.
When the vaad was formed was there a document drawn up formally outlining its purpose? If a regular corporation acts in a manner not described in the Charter, those actions are invalid and illegal - something called Ultra Vires. I'm not asking for an investigation or anything. But does anyone happen to know where those papers are and who wrote them up?
It has everything to do with the prevailing attitude of the Thirysomething and younger orthodox families today. the attitude that they are capable of making their own decisions as to the relevance or importance of a their Rav's ruling (
Socilogical question-is it the 30 somethings that are mosre likely to support Rabbinic authority blindly or the older generation. My personal belief is that I see that more in the 30 somethings.
also-in general as one goes east in the 5T area-there is a lesser tendency to support Rabbinic authority. Thus, maybe the 5T's and Far Rock aren't 1 community.
Broadly with exceptions: Far Rock, Lawrence to Lawrence Ave., Lawrence to Cedarhurst, Cedarhurst, Woodmere and possibly Hewlett-maybe hewlett by itself.
since people tend to live in areas like themselves-I've seen people moving from one of the areas to another in both directions to fit in their own crowd. Thus, the dispute their really are different communities in the 5T's.
If a regular corporation acts in a manner not described in the Charter, those actions are invalid and illegal - something called Ultra Vires. I'm not asking for an investigation or anything. But does anyone happen to know where those papers are and who wrote them up?
(a) The org is not a nys listed corporation
(b) Unless you are a member you cannot comlain about the corporations internal actions. Unless you are in privity ( in contract with) with the entity, you have no standing to challange its "ultra vires" actions. Furthermore actions are defined as those authorzied by law and or the orginzation documents. To give or withhold a supervision are clearly not ultra vires.
I once stayed for Shabbos-someplace about 2000 miles from here in a house where the husband was leaving Sunday morning to make his visits to a bunch of plants that he was visiting every few months-hashgacha for a major nationwide Kashrut Organization-nothing wrong..Yotzei vnichnas.
But was it a plant where "meat was being delivered and cooked?" There is a difference. And do you know if he was overseeing other mashgichim or he was the only one?
to anon 637
I was just trying to draw an anology. Sheesh, lawyers are anal!!
Did Rabbi Weinberger and the other Rebbeim also inform you that the VAAD did not return the keys that they had previously taken away from the Bolenders and only when their attorney was called after the notice was handed to one of their employees after 4:00pm on Erev Shabbos, not even to one of the owners, and the attorney called the cops did the representative of the VAAD finally return only one set of keys before he had to deal with the police.
Do the rebbeim think this is "yashir", correct? Was it also part of the Rebbeim's decree that they should not be able to lock up their store over the weekend or that the VAAD should still hold onto keys they no longer have the right too? Or that the VAAD representative had to be asked to leave the premises and did not even understand that once he pulled the hashgacha from the store he would no longer have the right to step foot onto the property?
Ask the Rebbeim this question as well, what happened to Rabbi Pincus?
And NO, I AM NOT A BOLENDER, BUT I AM FED UP WITH THIS WHOLE SITUATION.
Before issuing a Psak, a rav would be responsible to propely investigate the matter and conclude that his ruling is within the boundries set forth by Chaza"l.
Does that mean that the Rabbi's should have spoken to the Bollenders too and asked them questions or heard their side of the story before issuing this psak? Because that would actually have been a proper investigation and gathering evidence from both parties involved.
What does Flatbush Renegade mean? That you live in Flatbush and you are a renegade and you are mixing into 5Town business. or you ran away from Flatbush and think you know it all?
If all above are sick of the Vaads reaction why dont you voice your opinions by all doing a big shopping and spreading the news as well.This would indeed send a clear message this community will not stand for this!
Once the 6:00 bell hits, I'm outta here,
So you do this on your job? You get paid for this? are you RYE?
Anon 519 said...
to anon 637
I was just trying to draw an anology. Sheesh, lawyers are anal!!
6:54 PM
You asked a specfic question, and I gave u a specfic answer.
I don't believe it is the VAAD's place to tell the consumers where they can or can't eat. And since it wasn't a Kashrus issue, and since the Rabbonim did not bother to speak to the Bollenders but made up their minds purely by speaking only to their own peers who were "nogeah b'davar" involved and obvioulsy biased, it was not a fair and unbiased conclusion that they arrived at.
Having said that, but still respecting the Rebbeim in this community, but also realizing that this isn't a community such as Lakewood that is RUN by the Rebbeim, I have to make up my own mind on this issue and as long as Rabbi Kravitz is there, so am I.
Anonymous said...
I once stayed for Shabbos-someplace about 2000 miles from here in a house where the husband was leaving Sunday morning to make his visits to a bunch of plants that he was visiting every few months-hashgacha for a major nationwide Kashrut Organization-nothing wrong..Yotzei vnichnas.
But was it a plant where "meat was being delivered and cooked?" There is a difference. And do you know if he was overseeing other mashgichim or he was the only one?
6:51 PM
He was the lone mashgiach for that geographic area-not one teeming with Jews for that nationwide Kashrut organization. I don't know if meat was delivered and cooked.
But another story-for another Shabbos I once stayed at the home of a shochet for a major company under a major nationwide hashgacha. I asked him about hashgacha-the xx almost never comes they rely on us shochtim. Of course they couldn't chech anyway-so many shchita lines each killing so many a minute.
anon 8:06pm,
That doesn't say much for mashgichim now does it? However, the shochtim know their stuff and usually watch over the new ones. No shochet lets a new guy work alone unless they are 100% positive that he knows what he is doing.
An animal isn't wasted if it is shected properly it is sold as non-glatt or non-kosher, so the shochets have no reason to cheat.
Now that is an area that really needs concern and some real rabbinic muscle. Why are they wasting real energy and time when it could be used for a much better cause like out children? Explain that to me. Let them get together and do something positive instead of this negative issue which is tearing the community apart. I say do something unify and not vilify!!
Orthomom-you apparently have young children-but take a drive down Central Ave. not just on weekends-but even a night like tonight an hour or so ago maybe 20 teenagers between Daves and the bagel store-on a cold weeknight. Where did they come from-does anyone care besides raising money for at risk programs where they learn from each other to go mechayil ad chayil.
Does anyone care-besides mosdos living off them. How often do main line Rabbis offer to speak to those kids-who admittedly won't be a gadol hador.
Where does everybody get the idea that there was no kashrus issue? The letter that the vaad publicized today signed by every rabbi I can think of spoke of numerous kashrus and contractual violations. Besides, if the rabbis see what they determine to be a red flag for kashrus problems, can a regular guy with no expertise in the area cavalierly declare that "it isn't a kashrus issue" so they will be shopping there?
Hey Meir Fertig and Larry Gordon do you know of this letter this Talmid is talking about? Can you guys investigate this garbage and get the real truth to the people so all this Loshon Harah can finally stop.
What a bunch of hypocrites about this p'sak from my Rav or leave the shul. How many of you eat at TCBY or Haagen Daaz? How many of you eat at Bagel Boss in Carles Place but not in Hewlett. Assur l'daver ben gaver l'gaver gee that is in Shulhan Aruch and I have heard that drasha 1000 times. YIW Main shul to its credit and Reb Danny Frankel is a shining exception and Kol HaCoved to them. Let me see birth control do you ask? Short skirts or hair hanging out of sheitels, swimmng in FL? Let us call a spade a spade. The rabbis do not like the Bolenders not kasherus but yasherus and maybe someone in town needs a bigger store and there is not much space left. Any way who do the Bollenders think they are making money off of us and not supporting any big Yeshiva. Maybe they have secret other reasons which they do not want to reveal so as not to hurt the Bolleders. PLEASEEEEE. Hey there are other stores like Brachs and Supersol so it is an easy "p'sak" to kick those nasty Bollenders out. Now if they owned the Dunkin Doughnuts that would be something else. This big "p'sak" looks to me to be one that the Rabbis know the holy fine Jews of their congregation could live with because there are other stores. Sounds like the difference between bishul akum and pas yisrael if you mavinim know what I mean. I have lived in the F towns for over 35 years and GG was the second store opened under the Vaad when no-one was here except Jacobs latter. Times change and we do not need them any more. I do not really think they have any more violations than anyone else. I have yet to see a long list of how did Rabbi G say "numerous and flagrant" violations. Never have and I think I will never see anyting to compare GG to anyone else. This a very easy p'sak to follow and the Bollenders are easy to beat up upon. I love those self righeous comments about following your LOR. In the Olam HaEmess I think the Satan will show you your words and I think you will regret them. In the end our Vaad is intact we sleep at night, there will be less competition and there will no longer be fresh meat sold in this neighborhood. Allie and Rabaskin should be making kiddushim in their respective shuls. Prices go up, guality goes down, but we got unity and kids still hanging out on the streets. In Lakewood when HaRav Solomon said no-one goes to school until the 50 girls in Lakewood get placed it was done in two days. If 30 Rabbis stood up and told you to take your kid out of Yeshiva until the 15 HAFTR kids are placed would you? Of course not. And we do not anyone on the level of HaRav Solomon in this neighborhood who will stick up for our kids. How about not buying a new dress or a suit until the agunas are taken care of. How many times do women have to pay $1,000,000 tobe free? We really take care of the pediophiles, i did not hear any speeches from any shuls when Dr. Mondere fled to Israel. This guy tried to start a Yeshiva in Israel but Rabbi Bender stopped that. Neverthelss many gedolim prevented the DA of Kings from extraditing him back here.
orthomom - I saw the notice hanging in my shul this evening. It was signed by every last member of the local rabbinate (besides Rabbi Reisman). Perhaps my rabbi was quicker than others to hang it up, but by tomorrow I am sure you will seee it all over town. I think the notion that there is some vendetta against the Bolenders because they know too much about halacha (while every rabbi is ignorant) is as absurd as it sounds. This thread is resembling the other thread and should really be closed down. There are a lot of lies being spread here about the rabbis and the painful process that they went through to come to this unfortunate conclusion. i for one have a tremendous respect for their dignity in refusing to mudsling with the "Bolender supporters" on this blog.
Don't hold your breath, your kids need living parents but do daven for these kids and your kids
If 30 Rabbis stood up and told you to take your kid out of Yeshiva until the 15 HAFTR kids are placed would you?
I got the answer they are being educated on Central Avenue-thus Vaad hashgacha-GG not on Central Ave. thus no Vaad Hashgacha.
Any way who do the Bollenders think they are making money off of us and not supporting any big Yeshiva.
Is that true. A discussion on train this week-why the Rabbi did not mention the GG losing its Vaad hashgacha-was informed that mosdos Rav of schul was involved in were supported by owners of GG.
Someone asked the Rabbi if OK to eat at GG-this Rabbi who was active in Vaad-said yes.
Can someone please post "The Letter?"
The only legitimate responses by a Rav to a Kashrut question but he doesn't like it to a place that claims to be kosher are "I don't eat there", "I can't vouch for he Kashrut" eyc. No one can say that a place that claims to be Kosher is not-they are not there proving it. Such speech is liber. Thus, when we lived in different places and dealt with sophisticated Rabbonim we were always advised if we wanted to find out a trustworthy place-ask the Rav what he does. It is fair for a Rav to say I won't buy from there. Of course, many will then follow-like we did. Of course, there could be other reasons why he wouldn't buy there-but at least one gets a list of reliable places.
In response to Yeshiva comment regarding Bolenders. I am the accountant for Chaim Bolender and He has given 35,000 each year to Chabad of Port Washington the past 8 years. You must call Rabbi Paltiel to confirm.
A. What does the Yeshiva debate have to do with kashrut. We know these Rabbi's are wimps. This time they are hideing behind RYE.
B. I hope the Bolnders accountant had their permission to so disclose.
C. Isn't silent tzadakh the best type. Why is disclosure of Tzadakh so important here??
The Yeshiva debate has a lot to do with the validity and responsibility of the Rebbeim in the community. We want to know why they are ganging and grouping together about this particular issue yet turning a blind eye to something that is way more important to the community than supporting the VAAD.
We want support for our children. We want Yeshivas to stop sorting our kids into piles and labeling them "dirt" and "garbage" and throwing them out because they don't meet the standards they keep raising.
We want the Yeshivas to treat every child as a "GEM" and learn how to recognize issues early on so they can be treated and dealt with in early stages.
We want our Rabbanim to band together to force the Yeshivas to recognize these issues and to assume their responsibilities towards our children and stop throwing them out and using the cop out "we are not equipped". We want our Rabboim as a group to tell our Yeshivas to get equipped and stop sending our children "off the derech".
We don't want our children to suffer this pain of inferiority anymore and we want to count on our Rabbonim to back us up in this area and bring some muscle to the table when we are dealing with the Yeshivas. We want them to build some clout like they did now and issue directives to the whole community. We want them to be as powerful when it comes to Yeshivas as they are when it comes to the issues of Kashrus.
Why can't they say boycott this Yeshiva because they have thrown out too many children. It is a good enough reason for me. If they have thrown out those children your children might be next. You have no idea what your childrn might do next year or the year after. You have no idea if your child is going to make a face at the principal or listen to a cd they are going to feel is inapropriate. You have no idea where these attitudes are going to lead us from one year to the next and we want our Rabbonim to get involved as a group, a large group and we want them to get involved now and get all our children BACK IN SCHOOL.
If they had the time to band together to chase the Bollenders out of town, they should make the time to do somethng POSITIVE for our children.
"A strong vaad is important for high standards in kasharut.therefore I will support the vaad and not shop in an establishment that lost the vaads hashgacha.i know nothing about this new hasgacha and therefore can't comment on this new hasgacha.clearly there is no halacha I know about that would prohibit someone from buying packaged goods with a proper hasgacha.i believe it should be up to the individual to make that choice.
Rabbi heshy blumstein"
We need a support grooup for fine yidden who are becoming very cynical but do not want to lose their emunas Hashem. But who could be our leader for such a group. I bet this group woudl appeal to the broadest spectrum of Jews who know what is going on and cannot take it anymore but still love the religion.
I feel badly for Ossies Fish who just took a space in GG. The Schoenfelds are good people and should not be dragged in like this. I think the Vaad, in calling for a boycott is just showing that their motivation is political. It sickens me that with a stroke of a pen, innocent lives get tangled up. I say we support Schicks and Ossies and stop worrying about what the neighbors think.
"In response to Yeshiva comment regarding Bolenders. I am the accountant for Chaim Bolender and He has given 35,000 each year to Chabad of Port Washington the past 8 years. You must call Rabbi Paltiel to confirm."
Nice of them to give back to the community that supports them
In response to Yeshiva comment regarding Bolenders. I am the accountant for Chaim Bolender and He has given 35,000 each year to Chabad of Port Washington the past 8 years. You must call Rabbi Paltiel to confirm.
lol. Right . . . and I'm Chaim Bolender and not only are you fired, but I will be reporting you to the ethics committee for violating your obligation to keep my financial information confidential . . . YOU IDIOT!
Very amusing!!!
Know matter how you look at it this is a very unfortunate and unsettling situation. Those of you, who love a conspiracy, want to find one. Those who want to believe with all of their heart that their Rav deserves their loyalty and reverence will see no conspiracy no matter what.
The truth will probably never be known, but consider this.
It's very likely that through the years the Vaad had continuously found the management of GG to be wanting when it came to correcting some flawed systems or adhering to some particular restriction.
At these times the Vaad, with patience and restraint attempted to not only take precautions to correct whatever problems were ocurring, but also kept these missteps of GG quiet so as not to allow anyone to unfairly question the level of kashrus due to a minor mistake.
As time went on these mistakes became more frequent and the corrections were received with stronger resistance until the Vaad felt that the ownership no longer met the standards set by the Vaad for receiving hashgacha. They warned them, attempted to allow a quick and profitable sale, then got slapped in the face by the addition of a second hashgacha, without permission against the contactural restrictions.
I'm not saying this is exactly what happened, but it certainly makes for a plausible explanation.
Seriously?? And can you PROVE that the green spaghetti monster did not create the universe? Inventing a "plausible explanation" does nothing to explain the situation. Why should anyone have to invent anything? Is the "oilam" incapable of comprehending and thus unworthy of full disclosure here? I really think that would put an end to all the speculation and invective.
It is unfortunate that so many people are willing to look at the Rabbanim in the community and see a "conspiracy". Why not grant the Rabbanim the benefit of the doubt -they are afterall the Rabbanim of the community, appointed by the very community to their positions, presumably because of respect by at least most members of the community for their integrity, scholarship etc. Of course no one is perfect, however dragging in other problems in the community (e.g Yeshiva issue) is really irrelevant to this issue. No doubt those who drag that in would also not listen to the rabbanim of the communtiy if they did issue some sort of proclamation regarding that issue or any other. Unless of course they were pleased with the content of the proclamation and it didn't inconvenience them -then they would support it wholeheartedly. But if not, since they have no respect for the community Rabbanim why would they suddenly listen. They'd continue to whine and complain about that as well. It is a pity that some people are so cynical that they cannot accept at face value a statement by a group of community rabbonim. I assume that anyone who does not follow this ruling will also not follow any heterim of these Rabbis -sure. An overview of the postings by the conspiracy theorists shows a plethora of complaints and suspicions none of which are backed up and many of which are irrelevant. When it comes down to it, they just have no respect for the rabbanim of the community (and one wonders, if Rav Moshe ZT"L was here and making the same Psak, would they even then hesitate to complain). With that common denominator there really is nothing else to discuss -whatever convoluted reasoning or irrelevancies they raise all come back down to that lowest common denominator -lack of Kavod Rabanim. Some of those people no doubt lack this because they are used to getting their way because they have money. I think that shows through in some comments expressing concern for the parnassa of the owners but not really for the kashrus of the store. They project: Oh, when you are speaking about money, that they can understand, chalila that anyone's parnass should be harmed by those shylock Rabbis who are out to get the community, because obviously they all went into the Rabbinate for power and money. Those complainers project their own misguided values onto the rabbonim. At the end of the day its a free country -if you want to go buy goods in GG then you will. And then you'll walk around with an even bigger chip on your shoulder. . .
No Blind Faith:
Why the sudden concern over the parnassah of Rabbi Pincus? The Vaad has a history of stripping other (my apologies to these "others" for the use - and associated implication - of the word "other") Rabbonim from their Parnasa.
Case in Point:
RABBI MOSHE CHAIT
I have seen his name mentioned numerous times on these blogs, yet very few people seem to direct much attention to this Man. Rabbi Chait was thrown out on the street when RYE came to town and has not generated parnassah since that time. And not for lack of trying either. It is a real disgrace for this entire community that we can go back and forth with all this blog-mudslinging, yet not focus some energy on a REAL LIFE issue:
Let's ensure that both Rabbi Chait and Rabbi Pincus gain employment as a matter of top priority. Especially for those who support the Vaad and its actions, stop paying lip service to yourselves, and at least correct the collateral damage they have done to innocent Rabbonim who can no longer support their families. And for those concerned for the Bolenders parnasa, please show some concern for Rabbis Chait and Pincus. Even according to you, they too are victims.
So who's going to be the first to offer some constructive ideas to help an unemployed Rabbi find a job? First, the Rabbi without a job for five years. Then, but equally as important, the GG Mashgiach. Please show us all that this is not merely a game for everyone and that all of us are willing to stand up and doing something within our control.
Why can't the GG mashgiach work for Rabbi Kravitz now?
Why can't the GG mashgiach work for Rabbi Kravitz now?
That is not the question. First things first. You have to end one employment before taking another and leaving him hanging in limbo is not only unprofessional it is cruel and unconscionable.
In addition, how many mashgichim do you think GG needs, especially when the Rabbonim have called for a boycott, how do you excpect GG to support all these employees if they have no customers?
I'm not saying this is exactly what happened, but it certainly makes for a plausible explanation.
Or this could have been the explanation: RYE just doesn't like the owners of GG, and he kept looking for things to pick on that he didn't look for in any other store. When he couldn't get the mashgichim he placed in GG to back him up he fired them and put new ones in place. Ask the VAAD how many mashgichim have worked for GG and why. When he found a thing to pick on he dragged Mark Bollender to a meeting in front of the Rabbonim. After a while the Rabbonim got sick and tired of seeing Mark Bollender at these meetings and they wondered why no other store owner was being called in. It would seem like Mark Bollender was blatantly not following the rules of the VAAD even though he had an answer for every issue that Rabbi Eisen brought up, they considered him a "mechutsif" and a wise guy. But they were still annoyed that they were being dragged down time after time to another meeting involving GG.
This would explain why they write in their letter that he had serious halachic and contractual violations over time. They don't happen to write that he proved them wrong on all those issues and he has documentation on every one of the meetings with the VAAD. They are only going by what RYE says and therefore they just banded together as they had agreed to do when forming the VAAD to keep control of their MONOPOLY.
Rabbi Eisen, but he runs a very tight ship
Hey how can you say your honestly frum, where in the Torah does it say that anyone has a right to force someone to sell their business, unless it is for colateral to pay off a loan or to pay someone for loss or injury? As for Rabbi Eisen running a tight ship, maybe he was on a ship this Chol Hamoed, because the office was CLOSED, while every store in town was cooking and baking for the Yomim Tovim RYE was spending time with his family and was unavailable to the community he is supposed to be supervising.
What kind of tight ship is that. When I walked into GG on Chol Hamoed and asked to speak to the VAAD mashgichim one had left and Rabbi Pincus was trying desperately to reach Rabbi Eisen, no answer, no response, no return call. When I called Rabbi Pincus 24 hours later, Rabbi Eisen still hadn't returned his call, and he is the VAAD's mashgiach. What kind of tight ship is that? That's a sinking ship in my book. Ask some of the other store owners what they think of his tight ship!
What kind of tight ship doesn't give direction to an employee? Why hasn't he told Rabbi Pincus what to do yet? Why is Rabbi Pincus just hanging around GG, without being told by Rabbi Eisen where he stands? What kind of tight ship quits the job of supervision but doesn't return the keys to its proper owner? What kind of tight ship hands the notice to an employee and not the owner of the store? Please if my business was run like this, no payroll, no registered corporation with the state, etc. I would be in Jail!!!
Look up "VAAD" in the NYS Corporations registry, you will find the VAAD of Flatbush, Queens, Rockland County, etc. but not our VAAD. Some tight ship!!
At the end of the day its a free country -if you want to go buy goods in GG then you will. And then you'll walk around with an even bigger chip on your shoulder. . .
And of course you are not cynical at all, and you are not judgmental. Oh please, Mr. Holier than thou!
Ya gotta love guys who have "blind faith" only in Rabbonim who are no longer around to ask a shaila to. Because then they can insist that they "know" what those Rabbonim would say, and obviously they must be correct. But Chas Veshalom to listen and respect the Rabbonim that are right in front of them -that they cannot do.
"And of course you are not cynical at all, and you are not judgmental. Oh please, Mr. Holier than thou!"
If "thou" is one of the people spreading spiteful lies and making disgusting comments about the Rabbonim of the our community, then yes -he is absolutely holier than thou.
Yiftach Be'Doro K"Moshe B'Doro. One of the ways that Hashem set up the World is that Niskatnu Hadodoros. That is not an excuse for us not to respect the Rabbonim of our Dor. If we were supposed to be in an earlier Dor with the gedolim of old, Hashem would have put us there.
Yes sometimes people are Choshed BeKshairim, but that's only human -the community rabbonim will I am sure forgive you.
Does anyone have Rabbi Chait's phone number? I would like to ask him some questions and see if he had any difficulties with GG. Since I am a loyal customer and GG claims that RYE is biased against them, and I believe Rabbi Pincus and Rabbi Ashkenazy, I would feel more secure hearing from Rabbi Chait.
I just spoke to yet another community member who is sticking up for the VAAD, the same VAAD that fired Rabbi Chait and who also told me that one Rabbi told him that obviously GG is in the wrong because the file on GG is "this" thick while no other file on any other business comes close.
I figure that instead of debating with all of you here, who are yelling at me that I must listen to the VAAD and their psak, because GG is trying to "bust" the VAAD to kingdom come, I should actually just check with Rabbi Chait and see if he concurs with the current VAAD's finding or if he did not have the same issues with GG when he was in charge. This will settle the issue in my mind whether GG is being picked on or not.
So can anyone out there please help me out and get me Rabbi Chait's number?
Actually he did, that is who I was brought up with, that is who I learned my yiddishkeit from, and maybe that is why I have the compassion that I have, I dan l'kaf zchus and I want to hear from all the witnesses before I make my decision and before I take away someone's parnassah.
I am a second generation holocaust survivor. I know how important every single Jew is, if they are frum or not, they count in my book, and has no bearing to me on the issue. I want to give every single Jew a fair shake before I send him off to the slaughter. If must be my survivors instinct. I guess I have that in common with the Bollenders who are also second generation Holocaust survivors.
"I", "I", "I" -you use the word "I" 14 times in 2 sentences. Maybe if you were less concerned with "I" you'd have a different outlook on things. Since you apparently identify with the ownership, that's just another "I". Whoever you are, you are not the king though you obviously have a very high opinion of yourself. You should view this as a community issue -whatever you think and all of your self proclaimed great qualities are not what is at issue here. Do a little less writing and a little more reading and maybe you won't so casually dismiss a statement signed by 37 Rabbonim.
"Thank you for representing the community Rabbonim. Do you have their permission to represent them?"
Now you are concerned for their kavod?
I", "I", "I" -you use the word "I" 14 times in 2 sentences. Maybe if you were less concerned with "I" you'd have a different outlook on things. Since you apparently identify with the ownership, that's just another "I". Whoever you are, you are not the king though you obviously have a very high opinion of yourself. You should view this as a community issue -whatever you think and all of your self proclaimed great qualities are not what is at issue here. Do a little less writing and a little more reading and maybe you won't so casually dismiss a statement signed by 37 Rabbonim.
"I" have ownership of what "I" write as do you, If you choose not to read it that is your choice, or are you not allowed to make choices on your own, do you need permission to do so? I also am not telling anyone else what to do and am entitled to my opinion, you on the other hand feel that "I" entitled to only "YOUR" opinion which constitutes listening to the boycott that only one particular RAV called for.
I just came back from GG, and am happy to say there was happy activity there. I spoke to Marlene and she is very grateful for the support and asks that we hang in there while they try to work things out. They are not giving up on trying to find a solution to the conflict.
I hope the Rabbonim are also trying to find a solution and a way to keep the store open without having them sell it. If there is any way to recertify the store and bring peace back to the community I am sure everyone in the community would be very grateful. At this point in time I think it is very clear that the VAAD made their point, although I personally feel that they could have done it earlier on in a different manner. "I" also feel that there is still room to rectify this mess, and I am sure that the Rabbonim can come together and figure something out without forcing the family out of business.
Maybe they can do what the Yeshivas do and "suspend" Mark, the one they have the most problem with, for six months and give them their certification back on a trial basis for six months at a time and see how that goes. For the anon above that doesn't like my suggestions or my "I" references you don't have to read this or bother commenting "I" already know how you feel about anything "I" suggest.
Many members of the community felt that the punishment didn't fit the unknown crimes and it was too harsh. Is it possible to bring this suggestion to your Rabbonim and see if they might agree to it? Rabbonim always ask for compromises between opponents to make peace. Does anyone else think that recertifying them on a trial basis, with a suspension for the person who was least compliant with the VAAD is a good idea? Orthomom, what do you think?
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