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Monday, November 20, 2006

More Charedi Bashing

I'm too tired of this garbage to really give a post justice:
Three students were lightly injured when a stun grenade was thrown at the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak Sunday evening.

...The incident is believed to be the latest flare-up between warring rabbis and their followers in an ongoing power struggle for control of Ponevezh, a training ground for the intellectual elite of the Lithuanian yeshiva world.
What I'm even sicker of is the comments that will inevitably roll in after this post, telling me that I am a Charedi-basher. In addition to the comments that will pour in telling me that I have to understand that the press loves to report this stuff because the media is totally biased against Charedim (just like I am, I guess).

Well, guess what? I do think the press is poised to report every single misdeed that Charedim commit. That's because Charedim, as a community, profess to be holding themselves to a higher standard of morality. If they would only understand that their constant railing and complaining about the declining standards of morality and observance in the world around them puts every single member of their community under a microscope, with every misdeed scrutinized. They are a community who simply do not afford themselves the luxury of behaving as badly as some of their members have been.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have no issue with the post or the poster.

However, I would like to point out that they were not stun grenades (a military type of weapon that is used in real operations against combatants).

Rather, it was water heating coils (available all over Israel) that were coated with something and timed (with a 'Shabbos' clock - I love the irony) to heat up in middle of the shiur.

I don't believe that there was an explosion or fire. It does seem that 3 students were poisoned by the fumes and were treated.

After the 'explosion' the Rebbi kept on giving the shiur. That should indicate what type of 'explosion' it really was.

I am not on any side of this fight, so please do not attack me as trying to mitigate the culpability of the Chareidim or of trying to accuse people (the media) of lying and being anti-semitic. I am just pointing out the truth. Pictures of m'chabay aish in the bais medrash inspecting the coils are available on the internet. (I do think that that is the biggest chillul hashem of this whole entire affair and something that is blog-worthy: these firefighter's first time in a bais medrash is not to learn torah or daven or anything positive like that, but rather to inspect a crime scene). If you want to attack me for that, then it's okay. That is my own opinion and I stand by it.

5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


you just dont get it.
it's kind of ironic too, b/c the very way you write is the way a reporter in, say, the NYTimes, would respond to criticism that his/her 'reporting of the facts' in the israel/palestinian conflict is unjust.

the reasonable ones who are bothered, are not bothered if you report the facts and lament the actions. they (we) are bothered by:

1. your sometimes hasty posting of unverified reports that may be, at best, partially accurate. You respond to this often by saying 'it's a blog, not a paper' etc. but that simply is a straw-man coppout for a basic ethical/moral responsibility that ought only be heightened as a jew discussing alleged events of other jews. be accurate or don't mention it at all.

2. you discuss these matters in a way you wouldnt/dont MO matters. Perhaps you hold charedim to a higher standard b/c they often claim to do so themselves. To a degree that's fair. However, in certain respects it is not. For example, you really paint the entire charedi community with a broad brush as having problems of violence when, even from your reporting, it seems to me to be a very very small minority of ppl involved in incidences that, while violent, are usually a far cry from what we think of as violence (e.g. if there are repeated attacks someone should be dying). again, this is in no way to defend the occurrences, rather to suggest you do not analyze the situation as it occurs.

You can ignore any of my criticism's if you do not hold yourself to any real standard as a frum Jew b/c it is, in fact, your blog. Many bloggers, and even journalists, veer further from reporting facts and asking q's on those facts, than you do.

But, if this is not something you want to ignore then confirming the reports are accurate or not reporting them at all is a course you have to take.

6:26 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

When the incidents are reported in every mainstream news source, one can assume that there is accuracy to the claims. It is clear here that there are some members of the Charedi community behaving badly. All of them? Far from it. But enough that I feel it is perfectly in order for me to mention it. The Charedim would like to be held to a higher standard. Then they have to live with the consequences.

you discuss these matters in a way you wouldnt/dont MO matters.

That is an unproveable allegation. Show me the story I ignored of Mo youths beating up a muslim on the street. Remind me of the many stories I chose not to post about of MO youths rioting, stoning, and burning garbage. That's right. You can't. Are you really deluding yourself into believing that if hordes of Modern Orthodox had thronged Jerusalem, burning trash, stoning public officials, and perpetuating violence to protest...say, the disegagement, I wouldn't have posted?

Don't make me laugh.

6:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

once again you failed to read what i wrote. in fact, i will focus on the one line that you quoted.

i did not say you discuss matters of the charedi community, but not those from the MO community. rather i said you discuss them in differenty ways.

using your example of the incident with the muslim boy. you discussed it and i thought properly. you focused on how awful it is that it occurred. you did not, however, start throwing the whole MO community under the bus b/c of it.

once again, the majority of your post is devoted to a straw-man argument. i never said you did avoid discussing MO issues or that you would not discuss such events if they occurred in the MO community.

it is the manner and approach that has bothered me.

somehow you've managed to repeatedly misread my critiques and then respond to things i did not write.

8:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If only the IDF were fighting Jews then they coulld get the "Haredim" to fight...


8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you would have been a good nazi

8:39 PM  
Anonymous Gideon said...

I hate how you're getting nailed for this... I see the same thing everytime someone dares to criticize the people in our community (the wider Jewish community) that can't act like civilized human beings.

You're right on all those points, and maybe as someone mentioned the 'facts' will become clearer - but you can still comment on what you 'know.'

If the Charedi are tired of being over-zealously 'persecuted' maybe they should quit attacking people, ambulances, setting things on fire, blowing things up, desecrating synagogues, and all the other fun things some of them do religiously. And yes, we as the Jewish community, can call them on it - because religiously you don't see Modern Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative Jews acting like this.

One of the greatest problems in the Islamic world is the lack of protest from other Muslims when their extremists misbehave. We cannot do that. When our people desecrate the name, we must be quick to say 'that is not us, that is not what we all believe, that is not a fair representation of us.'

As for the person who called you a nazi.... I have rarely seen such disgraceful behavior. I'm terribly sorry.

1:21 AM  
Blogger Honestly Frum said...

The fault for this violence lies with the Charedi community. By the leaders not putting a stop to the violent riots a few weeks ago they condoned them (shtika K' hoddah). The fact that the gay pride parade was canceled only strengthened their resolve. This will not be the last that we hear about charedim using violence to try and get their way. The rabbonim did not anticipate this outcome but they made their own beds.

11:22 AM  
Anonymous anysara said...

In light of the reports of some chareidi leaders urging their followers to violence about the "pride" parade threatened in Yerushalayim a few weeks ago and now this, I think you are perfetly in the right to make the claim that it is a tremendous chillul Hashem for Orthodox Jews anywhere to behave like common criminals. Even though I don't look visibly Orthodox (anyone these days can wear a skirt and scarf in my west coast community), I'm constantly aware that my actions may reflect on Jews and I endeavor to act accordingly (admittedly slipping every so often). We as Orthodox Jews of any stripe would do well to remember that our actions are under a microscope.

One point of disagreement... You state in your comment above "When the incidents are reported in every mainstream news source, one can assume that there is accuracy to the claims." We all know this isn't true when we see the outright lies and distortions perpetuated by the western media regarding the actions of the Israelis and "Palestinians" (I use that term loosely)... I've been misquoted and misrepresented enough times in local papers to know that reporters filter everything through their own bias to make a story "sexier".

1:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.hnn.co.il/index.php?module=albums;task=view;id=1554 PICTURE OF THE INCICENT

2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Its interesting to note that ORTHOMOM never writes anything bad about Yeshiva University or its machers. I can unferstand why people in the haredi/Aguda/Yeshiva world are skeptical about (her)bias. I can't recall one article about YU/OU/RCA scandal.

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