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Sunday, February 18, 2007

Pamela Greenbaum's Complaint: In Her Own Words

The following (bolded and italicized) is taken from Pamela Greenbaum's own affidavit as presented to the court in her motion to retrieve information Google might have as to my identity. My comments and rebuttals are interspersed:
1. I am a resident of the State of New York, County of Nassau, and reside at [address redacted], Woodmere, New York 11598. I bring this petition for pre-lawsuit discovery so that I may identify that author of an anonymous weblog ("blog") and anonymous commenters who have used this blog to defame me by calling me a "BIGOT", implying that I am an "ANTI-SEMITE", and spreading lies about my character and actions.
And the misrepresentations begin.
3. I have no other means by which to identify the people who are responsible for the assault on my character that has been an ongoing feature of the website blog in question, known as "ORTHOMOM". Accordingly, I request that the Court Order the Respondents to disclose the information set forth in my attorney's affirmation, annexed hereto, so that the appropriate lawsuit can be filed against the responsible parties. In addition, a Court Order preserving the information is necessary because the blog is a voluntary endeavor that may be discontinued and deleted at any time by the anonymous "ORTHOMOM". I understand that this relief is authorized by the New York State Civil Practice Law and Rules, Sec. 3102.
Right, The blog comments could be deleted at any time. Just as they would have been had you e-mailed me, asking me to do so, Ms. Greenbaum. Unfortunately, now they will have to sit up there, due to this action. Too bad.
6. In commenting on local issues, "ORTHOMOM" and her readers in the comments have posted false, slanderous and defamatory statements anout me alleging among other things, that I am a "BIGOT" and an "ANTI-SEMITE" for my positions advocating against the use of public school district funds for private school interests and other outside interests beyond what is allowed by law. The most recent of these postings was written by "ORTHOMOM" and posted on January 11, 2007; the commenters' posts are undated (EXHIBIT "A").
Wow. ""ORTHOMOM" and her readers"? That is a blatant, flat-out lie. "ORTHOMOM" has never made any of the statements that have been attributed to her above regarding Ms. Greenbaum. Never said she was bigoted. Never said she was an anti-semite. NEVER.
7. In the January 11, 2007 article "ORTHOMOM" takes issue with my reservations about the legality of using school district funds and teachers to provide free extracurricular classes for private school students. "ORTHOMOM" wrote that my concern revealed an anti-semitic agenda, given that over fifty percent of the district's students attend private school, and the vast majority of those attend Yeshivas.
Really. Well. Let's look at Ms. Greenbaum's words as they were quoted in the post of mine that Ms. Greenbaum referenced, regarding private school students participation in public-school funded extracurricular activities:
Does Greenbaum, who has criticized numerous proposals by Mansdorf in the past, like the idea? “Why not?” she asked. ”They could do it now,” so long as public school teachers are not being paid public funds to teach non-public school students.
Did Greenbaum address in any fashion the legality of the issue raised in this particular quote, as she claims she did when she recounts this exchange in her complaint? Nope. She flatly rejects the notion of paying teachers for private school student extracurricular activities out of hand, with no explanations or discussions of legality. Another blatant misrepresentation by Greenbaum.

Yet another good one is in how she characterizes my response. She says I "wrote that [her] concern revealed an anti-Semitic agenda, given that over fifty percent of the district's students attend private school, and the vast majority of those attend Yeshivas." Hmm. Would all of you like to see the actual comment that I made? Here goes:
Um...what? Unless I'm mistaken, there is no law against district private school students being taught on public school property by public school teachers. The reason such an arrangement generally does not occur is a matter of the choice private school parents make to send their children elsewhere to be educated. In this case, we are discussing the prospect of private school students receiving extracurricular education from public school teachers on public school property. There is no connection whatsoever to the religious education these students may receive in another venue during the school day. I just don't see how Greenbaum can object on principle to the concept of district children being taught by district teachers on district property. Anyone remember Super Sunday, the (now-defunct) program where district teachers were paid to provide extracurricular activities to private school students on public school property? That was legal. And if she's discussing her personal preference as opposed to some legal issue with Dr. Mansdorf's suggestion, then...wow. Way to make it clear that you have no interest in helping the private school community in any fashion.
Anyone see anything there that shows that ""ORTHOMOM" wrote that [Greenbaum's] concern revealed an anti-semitic agenda", as Greenbaum states in a sworn affidavit?? I never mention the phrase "anti-semitic" (or bigot, for that matter) in reference to Ms. Greenbaum. There is also nothing here that shows I even mentioned a word about which percentage of the district's students attend private vs. public school, as Ms. Greenbaum states as fact that I "wrote"? I think Ms. Greenbaum is writing in a bit too much between the lines here - and making up full sentences out of whole cloth, and putting these completely invented writings of mine into a sworn affidavit. This actually is far worse than a simple misrepresentation. It's a flat out lie. Again.

In addition, this is about my stating my opinion on a public official's policies and actions. If said public official cannot see that this of all things should be well within my First Amendment rights, well, that it truly scary.
8. At some point after the January 11. 2007 article was posted, an anonymous commenter wrote that I am "BIGOT" because my position on the use of public funds runs contrary to the interests of local Yeshivas. Other commenters repeated and discussed this bigot label.
Greenbaum is really digging her own grave with this one. If she is asserting that her public policy led the anonymous commenters in question to call her a "bigot", then this is truly a case for the garbage bin. This is so clearly about Greenbaum's stated views on a public matter, and the commenter's opinion in response to those views clearly fall under free speech protected by the First Amendment.
9. I was horrified to discover that my legitimate concerns about the use of public funds were the springboard for a widespread discussion about me being a "BIGOT". I was even more horrified when I discovered the blog reported over 300,000 visitors!
Right. That's why you never contacted me privately to ask me to remove the offending comments. You were so horrified that you went to court, ensuring that the comments would not be able to be deleted so as not to destroy evidence. You also ensured, by placing this story in the NY Daily News, that far more people would read the comments which so horrified you.
10. The article and the comments remain on the internet for all to see up to the present time.
Again, had you contacted me, I might have taken them down. Now I am in a situation where if I do so, I can be accused of destroying evidence. At this point, it's far safer for me to leave the comments in place.
11. I believe I have a valid claim against the anonymous writers who are responsible for spreading these unfair lies but without the requested information there is no way for me to find out who is responsible and to bring a lawsuit. Accordingly, I request the Court's assistance in directing the Respondents to produce information containing the identities of those responsible.
Now here's the crux of the matter. The bottom line is that an anonymous commenter calling someone a "bigot' in an an anonymous forum is simply not defamatory (or, as a matter of fact, in any forum, as Krum points out here). The statement is clearly one of opinion, not fact, and it is further tempered by the fact that an anonymous commenter is not considered a credible source by the vast majority of readers. In addition, the bar is even higher to prove a statement as defamatory when one takes into account that Ms. Greenbaum is a public official, as the commenter would have had to show malice - which is legally defined as "falsity or reckless disregard of the truth". I would hardly think that within the context of the comment I quoted from Ms. Greenbaum in the January 11, 2007 post, that type of malice could be proven by any stretch of imagination or legal posturing.

Then there's the really sticky point that Ms. Greenbaum is looking to have Google provide her with my identity, but based only on my commenter's statements and nothing that I myself said at all. (Of course, Ms. Greenbaum is trying to make the case that the offensive comments were made in my name, but I think we all have sufficient proof at this point that her claim as to that is completely fabricated). Knowing that, Ms. Greenbaum's case weakens further still, as Section 230 of Title 47 of the United States Code (47 USC § 230) makes it quite clear that blog hosts are protected from liability against claims arising from comments left by a third party on any site they might host. Quite the slam dunk.

Another point that Ms. Greenbaum and/or her supporters may not have considered is the risk of their getting hit right back. Recently, a group of anonymous bloggers in a similar case (aside from a difference that in this particular case, I am not even the party who made the allegedly defamatory statements, which makes my case even stronger), filed a SLAPP motion against the party who was looking to unmask them, and the plaintiff was found liable for the anonymous bloggers' full legal fees. The lawyer in that case noted:
"The right to criticize anonymously on the Internet is a fundamental free speech right and an important tool for whistleblowers and consumers who speak out about the misconduct or corruption of big companies or public figures," said Paul Alan Levy, the Public Citizen attorney who filed the motion. "Those who want to intimidate their critics with the threat of identification, but who have no real basis for suing, should learn from this case that they cannot file suit and then expect to withdraw if the critics are ready to fight back. Companies and powerful individuals who try this trick should be prepared for the financial consequences."
Another funny little tidbit is in the part of the motion written by Greenbaum's attorney:
12. This application also seeks a Temporary Restraining Order to prevent the Respondent from disposing of, altering, and/or modifying, records regarding the blog and commenters so that the evidence is properly preserved.
followed immediately by:
13. This matter is brought on by Order to Show Cause since time is of the essence. Every day that the defamatory material remains on the internet for all to see, Petitioner is harmed and continues to be harmed..
Um, Mr. Adam B. Feder, Esq.? Perhaps you should make up your mind. Do you want me to keep the darn comments up so badly you are trying to slap a retraining order on me - or do you want the "defamatory material" down as fast as possible because "time is of the essence".

Now that I have taken this case apart, and putting all of the legalities aside, I have a more pressing issue with this development. When I first received notice of this motion, I thought Ms. Greenbaum was simply displaying some awfully bad judgment or had received some pretty bad advice in actually taking this litigious approach over such a mild example of offensive commenting. After all, she is a public figure, and a defense I would expect to see from the vast majority of public figures in the face of such a mild insult from an anonymous commenter is either ignoring the comment, or making a statement that explains the offending comment to be erroneous or misguided. I mean, an elected official's constituents are entitled to express their opinions as to the way they feel said elected official does her job. But then I saw Ms. Greenbaum's actual filed statement. And I realized how much worse this actually is that it first seemed on its face.

How in the world does an elected official who expects to command the respect of her constituents put these falsehoods and blatant fabrications in a legal document, where disproving them in a court of law will be about as easy as it was here in this post? Is this the type of school board member we expect to present as a representative and role model to our students? Someone who would not hesitate to perpetuate falsehoods in a legal setting?

Quite shocking, actually.

91 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Greenbaum has my respect and the respect of many more than you think. Your responses on a blog site mean diddly squat. The court will decide this matter, not you and not some rabbinical court. For your information, whether or not Ms. Greenbaum is a public figure as per Sullivan v. NY Times, the comments made about her were indeed malicious and are only protected from a libel lawsuit in the shadow of a beer garden in Munich.

12:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Greenbaum has my respect and the respect of many more than you think."

She has one less now after seeing that she lied in a sworn affidavit.

"For your information, whether or not Ms. Greenbaum is a public figure as per Sullivan v. NY Times,"

the case Sullivan v. the NY Times finds the owner and operator of a ski lift to be a public figure. All the more so a public elected official.

"the comments made about her were indeed malicious and are only protected from a libel lawsuit in the shadow of a beer garden in Munich."

incorrect. Malice means with knowing that it is false. it is very hard to prove such a thing in a case such as this when it is so clearly stated as an opinion oin response to mrs. greenbaums position on a public policy issue. public elected officials get called far worse, and the claims are non-actionable.

Nice try, you guys look like idiots with eg smeared all over your faces.

12:48 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

I would expect no less of a distortion of events and legal rights from the school board member who most champions the distortion of communal equity when it comes to the allotment of taxpayer funded services.

This joke of suit is right in line with Pamela Greenbaum's long time anti-Semitic, anti-Smurf, anti-Environmentalist, anti-Federalist, anti-Gay, anti-Bellum, anti-Bacterial, anti-Global warming, anti-Dolphin-free tuna fish, and bigoted agenda.

1:04 PM  
Blogger Yid With Lid said...

Orto, you got to stop allowing anonymous posts, let people be responsible for their own comments.

Please. As I tell my daughter when I give her her driving lessons, I don't worry about you Its other guys.

Besides I need you around to argue with if Bolenger ever opens a supermarket in Tenn.

1:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am horrified by Greenbaum's actions. I hope this is her downfall. She should not be serving in public office.

1:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pamela Greenbaum is an intelligent advocate for the children of the district. I respect her immensely. With that said, comments made about her, IMHO, are obviously protected by the first amendment. Imagine if everyone who had bad things said about them on blogs (and elsewhere) sued? Every politician in America would have several simultaneous lawsuits filed at all times. Anyway, while I don't agree with you often, OM, I'm with you this time.

1:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pamela Greenbaum takes the notion of the persecuted public school innocents by the vicious private school community to a new level of absurdity with this lawsuit.

What's more frightening is that someone on a school board is capable of filing a lawsuit that threatens free speech. What can she be thinking? What message is she ultimately sending with this?

1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This lawsuit is not just frivolous, it shows remarkable bad judgement. Greenbaum as a public figure should try to take the heat or get the hell out of the kitchen.

1:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This will be the beginning of the end of anonymous bloggers and of Orthomom.

1:58 PM  
Blogger MoChassid said...

Pam Greenbaum is a silly goose. This lawsuit is a silly goose lawsuit.

This is the beginning of the end of Pam Greenbaum as a board member. It was nice knowing you, Pam.

2:10 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

may I suggest orthomom that you somehow make a copy of the charts showing your increase in hits since this lawsuit was filed and publicisized and post it on the internet?

(you can do that by pressing "print screen" on your keyboard while the graph is showing and then pasting it in to paint and editing out the rest of the screen using it, then post it on the blog)

I'd really like to see it. I've been following the site meter numbers scince this happened and they seem to be going way high.

2:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

everyone is talking about you, ortho and about the five towns and pam greenbaum....

were all suckers for negative attention.

2:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" Anonymous said...

This will be the beginning of the end of anonymous bloggers and of Orthomom. "

I don't think so. Welocome to this great country called America. Ever hear of the Federalist Papers? They were written anonymously by some of our founding father. So I guess those great men are the original anonymous bloggers. Carry on, OM! I support your first amendment right, even if Mrs Greenbum does not.

2:30 PM  
Anonymous sam said...

"Greenbaum has my respect and the respect of many more than you think. Your responses on a blog site mean diddly squat. The court will decide this matter, not you and not some rabbinical court. For your information, whether or not Ms. Greenbaum is a public figure as per Sullivan v. NY Times, the comments made about her were indeed malicious and are only protected from a libel lawsuit in the shadow of a beer garden in Munich. "

I think that's a wholly inappropriate metaphor to throw around, especially from someone supporting a lawsuit essentially filed for namecalling. Once again, saying someone's a bigot is not libel. Saying they are a criminal or a nazi or a thief is. So you're suing to prevent someone else from having an opinion. Big brother anyone?

2:56 PM  
Anonymous sam said...

Frankly, after reading this post in its entirety, I'm a bit shocked by the slavish devotion to Greenbaum's cause shown by the commenters here. OM has presented a strong and very articulate series of arguments showing how Greenbaum has essentially perjured herself, and exposing her case to be a legal house of cards (and internally inconsistent as well). I would think there'd be some sort of substantive rebuttal by her boosters, or perhaps an outright discussion of the matter instead of the continued name calling and irrational crowing they seem to be doing. Here's a direct question guys: OM has shown how Greenbaum apparently misrepresented the truth in her sworn statement. How do you defend that? Or can you? Is the secular side of the "great lawrence school board divide" really so intellectually bankrupt that it cant muster up a coherent and valid argument in support of itself in a debate?

We (those here interested in the truth) are waiting with baited breath. I fear we may wait a while.

3:09 PM  
Anonymous Alexander Novak said...

I just performed a quick search of Lexis' reported cases in New York State and Federal cases and Adam B. Feder comes up just twice in reported cases. Many trial level cases are not reported. He graduated from Pace University law School in 1996, so I think Googles' lawyers can handle Ms. Greenbaum's counsel.

3:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This whole thing smells of Stanley Kopilow and what he thinks is shrewed lawyering. Ever see the look on Pam Greenbaum's face at a school board meeting---she has no clue about what's going on. Nice move, Stan....

4:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe Greenbaum can parlay this into a new campaign slogan:

"Vote for me or I'll sue you!"

or

"Pamela Greenbaum: Standing firmly against the First Amendment and Democracy"

4:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think Pace University was just libelled also.. Looks like another lawsuit

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Constitution and laws of the United States and the State of New York will be intrepreted and enforced by a court of civil jurisdiction. Not by the chatter in a 5 Towns shul or some Rabbis in some illegal stebl. All the denigration of Ms. Greenbaum's cause on this blog site are just wishful thinking. Filth, vituperation anmd the demeaning of others who have different ideas and thoughts than all of you are not protected by the law when they cross the line, and are forbidden by Judaic law. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

4:30 PM  
Blogger Chaim said...

Bloggers Rule! Why? because they take dictorial egotistical blowhard politicians to task and challenge them on a level that they can't comprehend.

Mrs. Greenbaums career is already dead.

G-d Bless America for the Free Speech our forefathers gave us.

4:51 PM  
Anonymous sam said...

Anonymous, no one's settling anything. They are just expressing opinions. That's allowed, right? Oh no, I forgot - only the "old" lawrence can have opinions. Not the new proles with their newfangled religion and private schools.

Agreed - the courts will decide. Based on the case law I'm reading, you probably won't like their decision, though.

We politely (more than we can say for your recent screed, ugly as it is, "illegal stebls" and all) challenge you to answer a few simple and basic questions:

1) How can you and your golf buddies justify (whether by civil or religious law) Ms. Greenbaum's apparent perjury?

2) How can you argue that expressing an opinion is not a constitutional right (once again, you must distinguish between fact and opinion - the court certainly will), especially regarding a publicly elected official (or can President Bush sue john colbert for publically insinuating that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed?)?

3) why can you not stick to the issues at hand instead of name calling and prognosticating? (in fact, we'll even let you off the hook to prognosticate and name call - as long as you merely provide an iota - one single iota - of coherent, relevant and pointed rebuttal to the many points made here.)

In truth, for taking this issue and so politicizing it, for dragging it frivolously into the court of law, you and greenbaum are the ones who need be ashamed.

Until you provide any reasonable answer, those of us who don't know you (and those include me among them, since I have no horse in lawrence, and frankly don't really care much about the school board one way or another), but see your shameful actions threatening the rights that the first and subsequent generation of bloggers, fought for, (just like generations of journalists and patriots before them) will continue to see you as the mindless cronies and party line men and women you seem to be.


Repeat after me: Just one coherent answer. It's all we want from you - Just one coherent answer.
Still nothing.

4:52 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'Ever hear of the Federalist Papers? They were written anonymously by some of our founding father'

Whose names were James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay!

4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" Charlie Hall said...

'Ever hear of the Federalist Papers? They were written anonymously by some of our founding father'

Whose names were James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay! ":

that was not released at the time of the papers' publication, dearest Charlie. Om might very well have no objection to being outed in 20 years from now. lets not be disingenuous.

5:06 PM  
Anonymous unimpressed 5T resident said...

I find the perjury to be most troubling. Is this actionable? Does this make Greenbaum liable for a countersuit? Does proving that a sworn affidavit contains complete fabrications come have some ramifications as far as her fitness to hold public office? Enquiring minds want to know.

5:08 PM  
Blogger YMedad said...

Great to be a part of this. Years hence, it'll be one of those landmark cases (despite what Anon 4:32 thinks but we'll protect its right to say so). Adar Sameach.

5:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We (those here interested in the truth) are waiting with baited breath. I fear we may wait a while.

It's bated breath.

5:38 PM  
Anonymous Woodmerer Rebbe, Esq. said...

Wowee. Did you read the actual wording of the complaint? Who is this attorney? It must be on of the most tortured, confused complaints I've seen since my law school days. I don't even know how you got through it, O-Mom.

5:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The sad thing is she still will be able to find out who orthomom is. The private schools will get no more than they do now, and at the end of the day budget or not, our class sizes will get bigger and our tests scores will go down, the only 3/4's you are getting will leave, and then you will have Spitzer removing the board. Not an idele threat, just what he said in his speech. Funny Pam Greenbaum is the only woman on that board, two children who are going to IVY league colleges from this district. She also knows the reason why we are on the needs improvement list is not due to test scores, since everyone is so uptodate. We are on that list, because 95% of our students did not TAKE the test. The state does not care if 6 children are in the hospital with life threatening conditions, they still have to take the test. If more people would be more involved in the meetings than blogging, perhaps their would be a way to work this out, but having a orthodox vs reform kkk rally is far more stimulating. It would be nice if all of you would be this interested in getting ALL our children what they need. Remember the children, you know the ones who ask for free building usage????

5:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mommy whats Sinas Chinam ?
Baseless Hatred
But Mommy how could anybody hate for no reason ?
Here child I'll send you a link

http://orthomom.blogspot.com/

6:16 PM  
Anonymous still wonderin' said...

"Mommy whats Sinas Chinam ?
Baseless Hatred
But Mommy how could anybody hate for no reason ?
Here child I'll send you a link"


More alligator tears. The district 15 school board pre-Spring-2006 added about 11 lines onto the official definition of "Baseless Hatred."

6:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

More alligator tears. The district 15 school board pre-Spring-2006 added about 11 lines onto the official definition of "Baseless Hatred."


What alligator tears. I think this is sad. Everyone is so busy thinking of the children no one is actually doing anything for them. The programs this community asked for are now open. The high school weekend program is open to all. As a teacher not in this district I find it inexcusable to have 24-26 children in a class. It is impossible to achieve the scores in those conditions. My contract has a cap size the same as this district. Yes I make a little less, but, I pay half towards my benefits and co pays, and I have the support of my district behind me. I have always had only 21 children in my class, and always had a full time teachers assistant. In any public school you are not allowed to say to a parent your child is bouncing off the walls, put the kid on medication. I would be fired. I know friends who have been told by their private schools to put them on medicine or their out. Unfortunately it is not that simple. We are not allowed to do anything. So try to teach with two kids bouncing off the wall. I have had to do, and I was ready to jump. That was the year I became a reading specialist. The district I teach in is far more advanced in its literacy program. Children who are at risk are pulled out for their at risk subject and put in special education classes for part of the day. I push in and give them added support. We don't have any inclusion ABA classes, which I cannot imagine is the right learning enviornment for everyone. Couple in obselete technology, and you get what you pay for. Yes we spend less per pupil, but we also spend far less on busing and books. We have 500 children in private schools. Their is no fighting, no free buildings, frankly no district on Long Island offers that. Door to Door busing is not allowed, and trust me these people pay far more in taxes. The constant articles, bickering, and fighting have done little to help this district. Basically we are the laughing stock of Long Island.
Like every teacher I have a certain amount of hours I must put in extra, and that is it. Yes I make over 95,000. I have taught for 18 years. To earn that I have taken countless masters classes. I am not going to apologize for myself or any other teacher on Long Island. I don't see people in Manhasset complaining they have more teacher over 100,000 than any district in the state. Everyone needs to stop blaming, forget the past, and work on the future. If you allow the money for school 1 to go back to the taxpayers, you will only pay for the repairs later on. If you keep a strangle on the budget, and keep failing or making increases that are unrealistic, you are all going to lose. Long Beach is already billing our district for special education services. Perhaps working together could promote unity and stop brining negative attention to our district, life can be peaceful. It is not the district job to make you feel invested, if you don't already you never will.

7:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please tell us exactly how much is the difference between your paycheck and those in Lawrence. With about 400 teachers, a difference in pay package, say of about 10,000 a year could mean 4 million dollars we could spend on lower class sizes. Of course, Mr. Kopilow and Ms. Greenbaum made sure this could not happen with the last teacher contract they rammed through this district with 2 weeks left on the old Bds term. They also gave away the most comprehensive class size guarantees of any District on Long Island. All without any time givebacks or academic guideposts. Strange, the comment, lets just move on. Is that akin to lets all just spend more money and not hold administrators, the Bd or teachers responsible for the low achievement in this district?

7:25 PM  
Blogger flatbushrenegade said...

"As a teacher not in this district I find it inexcusable to have 24-26 children in a class. It is impossible to achieve the scores in those conditions. My contract has a cap size the same as this district. Yes I make a little less, but, I pay half towards my benefits and co pays, and I have the support of my district behind me. I have always had only 21 children in my class, and always had a full time teachers assistant."

Please oh, please explain to me, why in my son's private school, where there are 30 students in the class, and there is no teacher's assistant, they have less than 3 hours of secular studies per day, yet these teachers who are far less educated than you are, and are paid far less than you, manage to have thier classes score consistantly in the top 10 percentile of the standard (fourth grade) reading and math tests which the state requires? Oh, and the "bouncing off the walls" theory doesn't fly- 5 of my children completed the fourth grade in various private schools in Brooklyn, and not a single classmate was ever removed from the class for behavioral problems. I'm not saying it can't happen, or that it doesn't happen more often than in the public school system, but the frequency doesn't come anywhere near justifying the pathetic showing represented by the uninspired teachers of the public school system.

7:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

not a single classmate was ever removed from the class for behavioral problems

Nor would I expect them to. Private schools have far more room to play with. Having been involved with this districts special education I can tell you with confidence the kids who have behavioral issues are in the public schools.I am curious being you are a teacher, you pay all that money in tuition, the district pays for transportation, to Brooklyn, textbooks, library books etc, where is the money going? I also would love to see these scores printed, everyone keeps saying how great the kids do in the Yeshiva when they get their scores each year. I think as a district wide initiative for ALL the children, every child who resides in this district in order to provide mandated services, they must come and take the ELA, and scores must be released to the public. I am interested. My district had 100% in English and Math and our principal will not more than 21 in a class. Perhaps we should find out how the teacher is teaching in your class. One more thing, Students in my school district who attend Private schools if given related services, they have to go after school. We don't have the luxury of having a community leader wine in the Herald I am sorry you feel the teachers of Long Island are pathetic. Long Island as a whole have some of the best schools in the country. Schools like Jericho that have great test scores 20 in a class and teach chinese,french,spanish, and a variety of other things. My kids all passed the tests, then again it is easy when you have a district behind you, resources, and 21 kids in a class instead of 26. Perhaps you should apply for a job at Lawrence, or being you are well educated on the school, maybe you should run for the board. It would be very nice to see a few more woman up their.,

7:56 PM  
Blogger koko chassid said...

orthomom being sued? why dident they sue harry maryels hes benn attacking people long before this




ps. also gil student

7:57 PM  
Anonymous sam said...

Anonymous said...
Mommy whats Sinas Chinam ?
Baseless Hatred
But Mommy how could anybody hate for no reason ?
Here child I'll send you a link

http://orthomom.blogspot.com/

6:16 PM


is this a joke? Please tell me it's a joke. It can't be an attempt at an argument, or even a half hearted slight. It's just too insipid.

It is no surprise that the district's numbers are so pitiful - after all, people like this anonymous and those before him/her are our children's educational role models(as is the teacher- perpetrator the semi-literate ramblings above (ironically, a reading teacher - well, I guess it's good he's not a writing or spelling teacher)).

Oh baby. It's becoming clear to me just from this series of posts that this is not about secular vs religious or old money versus upstart parvenus. Increasingly, it seems to be a conflict betweeen people whose intellects have ossified from staying in one place on the south shore for too long and others who, being more upwardly (or at least laterally) mobile can still process new thought. Please. Please. Old lawrence. I'm begging you. Don't leave me with this frightening impression of what american judaism will become if it stays in the same place for more than 4 decades. Bring something to this discussion other than silliness and name calling. Some new point, some intelligent argument, something.

Right now we outsiders (though sticking around in an attempt to make sure the constitution gets its due) are drowning in all this ridiculousness.

8:14 PM  
Blogger flatbushrenegade said...

Comment 1-
"In any public school you are not allowed to say to a parent your child is bouncing off the walls, put the kid on medication. I would be fired. I know friends who have been told by their private schools to put them on medicine or their out. Unfortunately it is not that simple. We are not allowed to do anything"
Comment 2-
"Nor would I expect them to. Private schools have far more room to play with. Having been involved with this districts special education I can tell you with confidence the kids who have behavioral issues are in the public schools."

Which one is it? are they throwing the behaviour problem kids out or not? If as you claim the problem kids are in the public school system they had to have started somewhere, when were they removed? Explain again how the behaviour problem reflects more on the public school teachers ability to meet standards than the private school teachers.

Oh, one more thing. I find it hard to believe that a teacher--especially one who is of the caliber you claim to be-- would write the following:
"It would be very nice to see a few more woman up their.,"

FYI-I am not a teacher, nor am I a woman, nor do I live in the Lawrence school district.

8:25 PM  
Anonymous sam said...

One thing is clear - I can admit when I'm wrong (although I can't thank whoever corrected me, since they're anonymous).

Anonymous said...
We (those here interested in the truth) are waiting with baited breath. I fear we may wait a while.

It's bated breath.

5:38 PM


I stand corrected. Having never thought much about this expression, I actually bothered to look it up - turns out its from "abated breath" or decreased breathing (from excitement) - first used (according to the OED) by Shakespeare in Merchant of venice I iii 125 “Shall I bend low and, in a bondman’s key, / With bated breath and whisp’ring humbleness, / Say this ...”. "

Who knew?

8:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your welcome

9:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I mean, you're welcome.

9:03 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

OK. Everyone out of the pool. This comment thread is done.

9:34 PM  
Blogger Married and Navigating Jewish Brooklyn said...

We know you will win, you have the law on your side, and we can't believe that this would happen to you or any other blogger. Will post a post on our blog dedicated to you.

11:51 PM  
Blogger Cosmic X said...

Shalom OrthoMom,

I can't believe what I'm reading here. If hope that you have elections there soon to get this lady off the school board.

3:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OM- you can control posts the same way the NY post controls what goes into the newspaper. you are on the hook, big time. Can't hide behind the curtain no longer...

7:24 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

OM- you can control posts the same way the NY post controls what goes into the newspaper. you are on the hook, big time. Can't hide behind the curtain no longer...


First of all, the question is not whether I CAN control the comments, but whether I am responsible for the comments that are made by a third party on my site. The answer is no.

Second, the comment in question does not meet the standards of a defamatory one by any stretch. In addition to being an opinion stated in regard to an elected official in response to some of her stated policies (absolutely covered by the First amendment), the words racist and bigoted have been legally defined as non-defamatory.

But thanks for stopping by.

8:14 AM  
Blogger storywatcher said...

It would be a legitimate lawsuit to force a blogger who is consistently defaming a person from behind the cloak of anonymity to appear in court and defend those defaming statements and whether they are free speech or libel.
However, that does not seem to be the case here. It is a weak case and I expect it will not survive the motion to dismiss that will surely be filed by Google's lawyers.
This does, however, serve as a warning sign to bloggers to better select their comments they allow. When you get sued, even if you win, you lose.

1:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd hate to be compared to those people in Croatia who said nothing when anti-semitic jokes appeared on their sugar packets so, Orthomom, please delete those posts which contain the disgusting African america slur.

6:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"

I'd hate to be compared to those people in Croatia who said nothing when anti-semitic jokes appeared on their sugar packets so, Orthomom, please delete those posts which contain the disgusting African america slur.

"

unfortunately, I don't think Om is allowed to delete any comments while this is going on.

6:05 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

I'd hate to be compared to those people in Croatia who said nothing when anti-semitic jokes appeared on their sugar packets so, Orthomom, please delete those posts which contain the disgusting African america slur.


But of course. Done.

7:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

> "someone who would not hesitate to perpetuate falsehoods in a legal setting?"

You are surprised? Its seems perfect timing: In Megilat Esther, Haman would not dare lay a finger Mordecai because everyone would identify him for what he was, so he had to make it legal to kill Mordecai to sooth his hurt ego in peace. Once it was law (Dat), it was OK (see Rashi) and not personal. Same for Achashverosh and Vashti.

To the Persians the law (Dat V'Din) was driven and molded by emotion to meet their psychological needs, instead of it being used to cool them down from a rational 3rd-party point of view.

Since the world has progressed since then, lets hope calmer minds will prevail.

8:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So it looks like saying "nigger" is not protected by the first amendment, but anti-semite is.

9:17 PM  
Blogger The back of the hill said...

So it looks like saying "nigger" is not protected by the first amendment, but anti-semite is.

Actually, both are protected by the first amendment. That the slur was removed has no connection to the first amendment - OM may edit or remove, at her discretion - but does not have to do so.

The whole function of a blog is interaction - without commenters, a blog becomes a rather sterile excercise in scribbling, the communication strictly monodirectional and one-dimensional.

Not all commenters add meaningfully to the interaction, and not all comments are equally valid.

The word 'nigger' is a slur. Good taste might dictate it's removal.
The word 'anti-Semite' is not a slur, though it may at times be an insult. As an opinion, it can be a valid part of the discussion.


If I call Ahmedinejad an anti-Semite, I am not insulting him, but probably merely describing him. Do you see the difference?

9:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In law, there is no such thing as an automatic victory. All you need is a judge, law clerk or jury with a certain bias or just bad day and your screwed. A bad lawyer can do you in as well.

Even if a similar case has been adjudicated several times before, it is no guarantee. Take for example the latest ford lawsuit- a lawsuit they won 11 consecutive times before finally losing one.

"http://select.nytimes.com/2007/02/19/us/19bar.html?ex=1171947600&en=b280a6cb6e840cdb&ei=5121"

11:06 PM  
Anonymous reallawyerwithabrain said...

In law, there is no such thing as an automatic victory. All you need is a judge, law clerk or jury with a certain bias or just bad day and your screwed. A bad lawyer can do you in as well.

Of course not. But OM and others have identified several legal obstacles to this case and all you (and other supporters) come back with is truisms like "this will be decided by a court of law". How do you suppose these legal obstacles will be overcome? If you (and Pam's lawyers) cannot answer that question, than this case is doomed to failure. Maybe Pam will get lucky with a dumb judge, but then she will have to deal with an appellate court that is well equipped with dealing with difficult legal issues.

And your ford example is a bad one. A victory before one jury has no effect on another jury. Juries aren't bound by precedent and unless they act without any basis are, their determinations are for the most unreviewable. In contrast, here we are dealing with legal defects in her case. Prior rulings in similar situations are relevant because they will determine how the legal issues will be analyzed here.

12:01 AM  
Blogger Yid With Lid said...

does anyone have a picture of Ms
Greenbaum, I would like to put one up on my site all I have now is a picture of Quasimodo as a place holder

5:55 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

How come my best comments are always deleted? It isn't like I started....

8:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If I call Ahmedinejad an anti-Semite, I am not insulting him, but probably merely describing him. Do you see the difference?

No, calling Ahmedinejad an anti-semite is patently true, based on his remarks. Calling Ms. Greenbaum an anti-semite, based on her school board positions and policies, may or may not be true.
Whether or not it is true is to be decided by a judge or jury, and depending on how they find, it may not just be an insult, bad taste or a slur. Do YOU see the difference?

4:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"
No, calling Ahmedinejad an anti-semite is patently true, based on his remarks. Calling Ms. Greenbaum an anti-semite, based on her school board positions and policies, may or may not be true.
Whether or not it is true is to be decided by a judge or jury, and depending on how they find, it may not just be an insult, bad taste or a slur. Do YOU see the difference?"

No, you miss the point. Calling someone an anti-semite, or racist, or bigoted is not a statement of fact. Therefore there is legal precedent that they are not considered defamatory, because they are not statements that are factual, and therefore it cannot be proven that they were made with knowledge that they were, in fact, false. These types of names are always meant as slurs or epithets, and as such are not considered defamatory. There are reams of case law to that effect.

Really, people. this isn't such a hard topic to understand. Just try google.

4:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know anything about your local politics but it seems like greenbaum just wants to look like she's standing up for the public school folks against the jewish private school folks. She wants to looks like she's tough despite all the evil you folks do to her.

8:41 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

I don't know anything about your local politics but it seems like greenbaum just wants to look like she's standing up for the public school folks against the jewish private school folks. She wants to looks like she's tough despite all the evil you folks do to her.


There are other ways to stand up to policies she doesn't like - such as ways that don't entail filing frivolous court documents laden with lies and half-truths that attempt to quell free speech.

Like, perhaps, using her very own First Amendment rights to speak out against the "evil we folks do to her"? Or write about all the "evil"?

8:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps, we need a lesson in decorum when it comes to using racial slurs. Use an euphemism, it's the civilized thing to do. Use things such as "the n word" for, well you know what it's for, and let's use "f*k*" for another popular racial slur, that OM might delete a bit faster than the n words. I'm, of course, referring to filthy kike.

Let the deletions begin and may OM stop a torrent of this kind of post by being a bit more vigilant.

9:10 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...



Perhaps, we need a lesson in decorum when it comes to using racial slurs. Use an euphemism, it's the civilized thing to do. Use things such as "the n word" for, well you know what it's for, and let's use "f*k*" for another popular racial slur, that OM might delete a bit faster than the n words. I'm, of course, referring to filthy kike.

Let the deletions begin and may OM stop a torrent of this kind of post by being a bit more vigilant.


What an absurd comment. I never had to worry about torrents of comments with such epithets in all my time blogging. Please do not start one.

9:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Simply delete posts with truly offensive words in them without having to be reminded that you're a decent person who should do it without being prompted.

10:26 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

Simply delete posts with truly offensive words in them without having to be reminded that you're a decent person who should do it without being prompted.



If you are referring to the comment above by 'at the back of the hill' which contains some words which are used as slurs - his usage in that context definitely does not dictate the comment's deletion. Why don't you manage your comments, and I'll worry about the rest.

10:37 PM  
Blogger muse said...

This seems to be such a frivolous law suit giving exagerated power to bloggers.
Good luck orthomom!

10:58 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Simply delete posts with truly offensive words in them without having to be reminded that you're a decent person who should do it without being prompted.

Can't we all be adults here? Is your consitution so weak that no matter what the context, the "the n word", will cause you to fall apart? If it is, maybe you should try another site. Like pbskids.org.

11:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is your constitution so weak that a picture of Hitler and a few anti-semitic jokes on sugar packets get you upset?

5:26 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

Is your constitution so weak that a picture of Hitler and a few anti-semitic jokes on sugar packets get you upset?


Remember we talked a few comments back about context?

7:41 AM  
Anonymous yet another lawyer said...

I'm not sure what Camp Pam is expecting. Even if the judge issues a subpoena based on the motion filed, Google will likely fight it. They have every financial incentive to protect their customers. Also, once the subpoena is issued, OM can file her own motion to quash. There has never been a case such as this one in which an ISP or email provider has been forced by a court of law (whether on appeal or in the original proceedings) to give up the identity of a subscriber. The case law is clear. The subpoenas have always been shot down, and court fees are usually awarded to the party who filed the frivolous motion in the first place. In this case, the circumstances are even more meritless, as the commnets were not made by the siteowner herself. They were also not defamatory. So even if this takes months to wrap up, it is a wild goose chase for camp Greenbaum.

8:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At least there's no need to debate the ugly issue any more: http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2007/02/pam-greenbaumothomompamela-are-these.html

10:24 AM  
Anonymous Barbara said...

Some interesting stuff on cyberslapp cases HERE

This is just silly. Greenbaum wants to punish you for someone elses subjective comments? You gotta wonder what would happen when someone cuts her off in the parking lot at Loehmann's? Do her kids ever say they don't like her cooking?

Orthomom - take this in stride. Only abusive people try to smear others and project blame on to the blameless. My Nana always told me "sometimes mud sticks better to a clean surface."

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All of you jailhouse lawyers out there should should stop the "feel good" comments, shut up and let this case take its course. You really don't know what you're talking about.

4:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone should SUE Greenbaum or in the very LEAST the court should SANCTION her for this stupid wasteful litigation!

How dare anyone try to go against the FIRST AMENDMENT in such a way! People have a right to voice their opinions especially when it comes to public issues (and, to me, that categorization has a VERY broad reach)

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