Pre-K Busing Restored (For Now)
Received via email:
Good news - The school board's attorneys petitioned the court and were granted a "stay" of the pre-k bussing decision today, so the District is now authorized to provide pre-k bussing to children in private school (probably until the District has an opportunity for a formal appeal).
Bussing will be provided (to all 4-year old children who were registered for pre-k bussing) beginning this Monday.
posted by orthomom at 6:29 PM
208 Comments:
What a surprise, I wonder what the name of the presiding judge is and how many times he has come over the homes of this board.
Of course it's an inside job. The judge is probably related to all the private school parents.
After all, everyone knows that Orthodox Jews pull all the strings in District 15.
Come to think of it, they control all of Long island's educational districts.
As a matter of fact, don't Orthodox Jews control all the own banks, control the media, plot further world domination in their temples?
The goal of the orthodox community of the five towns is to weed out all non-orthodox, and live in one big happy kosher state. If you don't like it, too bad, we will win. There are now more orthodox in the five towns then there are in Jerusalem. Admit it, you all know it, one day that beautiful middle school on Broadway will be the home of the best Yeshiva education tax dollars can buy. Gai avek!
Once again the orthodox community has chosen somehow to hide and cry racism or prejudice against everyone.If they do not get there way, its always a prejudice issue. You have turned your faith into a business, how pathetic!..We are losing our village stores, our restaurants, our friends and now our schools...what will happen when Wal-Mart opens up in Rockland??..are you going to threaten to stop shopping there because there not closed on Saturdays?....as I believe your community is up in arms about it because they do not want " outsiders" in there community....
there are more of you here than in Israel because your Fanatical ways are NOT WANTED there!...thats fact..so you come here and strip everything from everyday people...So what if your community has grown here..go buy a globe...you may be a large boulder in these small towns but your have of a grain of salt on this planet:)
I am a private school ( orthodox Family )parent and resident for 7 years here in Lawrence. The values instilled upon us growing in Yeshiva was to respect our neighbors and community. I believe we have lost this. NO ONE has denied us buying houses here. NO ONE has denied us opening store here. NO ONE has denied us of Building our schools, expanding our homes or even convincing, maybe even forcing ceratin stores to obey our Sabbath...Have we gone to far?. We are alive and living well here. We benefit from all sources of state aid to Public Schools, which we live and pay taxes in. Why not set a Precedent in this Neighborhood to make Equal the # of Public and Private School parents; 50% to each side...School District #15 has thrived as a school of Excellence nationwide for over 60 years.....doesnt that say something about the Public School parents that we live with?...
7:31
As an orthodox community member, I am appalled and embarassed by what you just said. Comments like that have no place in a community of people who are trying to work and live together. Nasty comments like yours are destructive and leave no room for dialogue and cooperation. I hope those who read this are aware that you are speaking for yourself and in no way reflect the views of the community.
I think 7:31 was joking. He was mocking the conspiracy theorists who believe that drivel.
And 6:38, if you know the answers to your own questions, please share them with us. We have enough to fight about without conjecture fuelling more flames.
As a public school parent I am shocked by the comments I hear/read from both sides. I am surprised that OM allows for all the anger and nonsense to be posted at this blog. On the other hand, it's better here than out on the streets of Five Towns.
The goal of the orthodox community of the five towns is to weed out all non-orthodox, and live in one big happy kosher state. If you don't like it, too bad, we will win. There are now more orthodox in the five towns then there are in Jerusalem. Admit it, you all know it, one day that beautiful middle school on Broadway will be the home of the best Yeshiva education tax dollars can buy. Gai avek!
7:31 PM
what is the point in posting something like that other than to further the flames or hatred or are you sincere in your comment?
Unfortunately for us no decision by the state education commisioner has ever been reversed, so busing for a week and then it will be reversed.
Yea I agree that anti semetic comments even in jest should be pulled. That said
OM serves a purpose in that despite that my four year old being signed up for bussing I was never informed it was off and I am sure I wont be informed its on. Thanks OM
I would love to understand how 4 year olds on busses is reflective of an evil desire to root out all non orthodox from town
beyond paranoid
its not Paranoia...its fact...look at the statistics...have you ever stopped to think OM how your community has affected ours?
I would love to understand how 4 year olds on busses is reflective of an evil desire to root out all non orthodox from town
Are you serious, do you really believe that this is all about bussing? Do you really believe that the majority of Public School parents actually care if Pre-K bussing is utilized by Private Schools? Nobody is anti-Semitic since most of the people posting here simply practice different forms of Judaism. The biggest problem is the obvious arrogance of this school board to simply do what they feel. Ignoring parental concerns at school board meetings or simply dismissing them due to the fact that they were brought to light by public school parents, 29+ million from the sale of a PUBLIC SCHOOL being shifted into a tax account where we all know any referendum to spend that money will be voted down. The bussing is less of an issue than the way it was gone about. Mansdorf referred to it as a grey area so he felt he could simply put it out there, the board simply lied and under funded it and added 200K+ to cover the shortfalls after the referendum was voted on and to top it off, the transportation which took place on Tuesday was absolutely illegal since districts are not allowed to bus private schools outside of the dates that the public school is active. Wake up and smell what this board is shoveling and realize that this will not stop until they begin to address Public School concerns and stop simply looking for ways to siphon as much money out as legally possible.
Is it true OM that the East Ramapo school district in Rockland are going to second the motion??:(
people it's busing not bussing - just a little pet peeve.
I don't think there is anywhere that has spouted so much anti-orthodox propoganda as here in this small community. Shame on all of you, with your vile comments. We are here to stay and if you don't like it you can sell your homes like your neighbors did and rip some other othodox Jews off with the high sale prices these houses are really not worth, but we pay for the privilege of living in this "peaceful" community.
I only hope there are others monitoring this blogspot who can actually see the truth now for once and for all. Now they can see what all the propoganda was about with the board meetings, elections and so forth. It had nothing to do with the children, it had nothing to do with education. I was simply pure unadulterated hatred as is spouted straight out right here. The stupid garbage " the orthodox owns the banks, the judges, are taking over the stores, etc..."
Only dumb and really stupid idiots can spout such garbage. Half the stores on the avenue are empty. Anyone can open any kind of store they want to. Are we chasing anyone else out of their stores? You with the big mouth, why don't you open a store? There are plenty of stores on Central Avenue that are owned by non-orthodox that have been doing very well for years, Arnolds Camera, Quorom, Tommy & Co., Toddy's, Variety, Gap, Ann Taylor, Starbucks, etc.
It is their own personal choice whether or not to be open on Saturday. If they want to do more business and get the orthodox business, they make a good business choice. Why should it bother you? Many of the New Jersey communities still close their stores on Sunday because of the "Blue Law", so many of our stores are closed on Saturday, why does that rub you the wrong way? Shop in those stores on Sunday, like we have to shop in other stores that are closed on Sundays during the week.
Get over yourselves already and learn how to live like human beings among other people and stop being so bigoted. Maybe you too would like only a pure Arian nation.
i agree with 9:37...I've heard stories amongst ourselves that we have Orthodox students who take classes at touro law school on how to legally bleed this place dry of everything?.....is the story about the Atlantic Beach Bridge true that Orthodox have used the Jewish Star to call state senators and other Politicians to act to have the Toll and booths removed....who the hell in the world are we??...even a Bridge??
I am a public school parent and I really am not against pre-k busing. The reason why many parents were upset was the fact only Yeshiva students would be receiving Pre-K busing. I sent my child to catholic pre-k, and I would have been outrage that a board would make it so my child could not be bused. The reason no one protested the pre-k busing before was no restriction everyone got it. I heard from my court officer neighbor it was some battle in court. The judge supposedly has a relationship with two board members, I hope that is not true. The chances of the district getting this overturned from what I was told is slim to none. I also found out that this decision was planned to be faxed at that time. The state is now stepping in to all district goings on. It seems they just needed a way in.
"The judge supposedly has a relationship with two board members, I hope that is not true."
Unbelievable. You guys just go on and on with this, don't you. Don't you know it's defamatory to suggest a public official is corrupt?
Page 4, paragraph 2 of the Commissioner's decision is based on state laws and not based on voter referendum, which will stand up in court.
A stay is a temporary order, not a reversal of decision. Mill's decision will be upheld.
So tomorrow, the pre-k buses will probably roll for private school children, only to be taken off the roads in a month or two. Hardly a victory for ANYONE, and the children will be confused, parents will scurry and we'll be back to square one again, except that the lawyers will have their pockets lined again, at taxpayer expense.
With a district lawyer, and a lawyer on the school board, the majority of the school board is not reading or listening to the laws or the advice they have been given, but would rather waste a lot of money for something that is not doable.
The judge they used is the same judge that got an eleventh hour reprieve for the Sanitary District 1 elections two years ago. So yes, they have direct access to a judge at his home who will sign injunctions as they see fit.
But it is only temporary. Commissioner Mills has never had a decision overturned by a court.
With all the innuendo out there, I'm just curious as to whom the judge is and if he/she actually does have a prior relation ship to anyone involved in this case. I would imagine that any appearance of or actual impropriety wouldn’t bode well on this board or the judge. If the board was infuriated at the original ruling, wait till a judiciary committee gets involved.
The kids won't be confused if the parents got off thier high horses and drove the kids to school. It has been done for years and even before automobiles the parents walked thier kids to school. Get over yourselves are you soooo lazy uninterested, special, needy, etc etc etc that this is a problem to get your children to school by car walk carpool pony Or maybe the real issue is what all you people can try to get away with and get over on people who don't pray the way you do. HOW EMBARRASSING!!!
If the board was infuriated at the original ruling, wait till a judiciary committee gets involved.
For years the public school parents said the state is coming well they never came. It is unfortunage that are board is so arrogant. I don't know if they knew the judget or not, but if Mr. Mills has never been overturned then you can be rest assured that he will start to investigate us.
Nobody said anything about a judge doing something illegal. It is done all the time. An injunction is only a temporary stay. Mill's decision will be upheld.
Anon 9:56, you are really not helping. Your post reads like everything the non-Orthodox fear the Orthodox sound like. Totally negative and obnoxious. I am an observant Jew, also (not in your area) and if you are any example of the Orthodox who have moved into the area, I can see why the locals are miserable.
So let me get this straight -
1) Mills has never had a decision overturned because you have his scorecard and it says so? What a dumb comment to make. There are at least 15 appeals currently in NYS Courts from his decisions. There are plenty of appeals that overturned his decisions in the past and you can rest assured that some of the current appeals will overturn his decisions.
2) The board found a judge they know who was willing to sign a stay order for them at home? Do you know anything about the way the courts work? This was a proceeding which couldn't have taken place without both parties present. Nobody picks the judge - you show up in court and they tell you who the judge will be.
Whether you like it or not, we do have a justice system with checks and balances. Whether you like it or not the judge actually found flaws and contradictions in the Commissioner's decision. Making up stupidity here is not going to get you any farther than making up stupidity in complaints to the Commissioner. Ultimately, this issue will be decided based on a court's interpretation of the law - not a Commissioner's vendetta and not a corrupt judge in the comfort of his home.
Okay,
How about the district violating state law and allowing transportation for private schools the day before public schools start. Is this board above the law? Either way honestly it is just good to know the state is here to help. Don't think Mills faxing a day before school at 4:00 was not planned. This isn't only the doing of Mills, you have to be naive to think it wasn't either way have faith the state is here.
If there was busing of private school students on a day when public schools were closed, and it is illegal, someone should put in a complaint against the district to the Commissioner. It must be done quickly and properly so that it is not thrown out. Follow directions given on the NYSED.GOV site.
Likewise, private school parents, if you think there is something illegal going on in the school district, you have these same rights.
If anyone thinks you need both sides present for a temporary injunction, you are very mistaken.
Good night. Let the whole world look at the Lawrence School District as an example of how manipulative and exploitive some members of the community can be.
"If there was busing of private school students on a day when public schools were closed, and it is illegal, someone should put in a complaint against the district to the Commissioner. It must be done quickly and properly so that it is not thrown out. Follow directions given on the NYSED.GOV site."
Thanks, I have already made a complaint to the NYS Education Department since this is the regulation: "Public school districts do not have the legal authority to transport to a private school before the start of the public school year. So if your district opens on September 10th and a private school opens on Sept 5th, you must not provide transportation until Sept 10th."
The following is a link to the page since I am sure someone will call me misinformed:
Private School Transportation
Anon 9:56
Thanks for showing everyone what it's really all about. You truly personify the "us vs. them" mentality that your beliefs manifest.
For the record, I'm not talking Judaism per se, I'm talking your fanatical and twisted archaic version of it.
It's quite telling that you use the term "Aryan Nation" well, I've got news for you, most of us see you and your practices as not much different than them and other separitist groups.
Really, anon 9:56, thanks for re-inforcing what all of us- Jew, Christian, Atheist, etc. already knew!
9:52 pet peeve
It bothered me too, I looked it up in the dictionary
it reads bus,bused, bussed,busing, bussing-to transport by bus.
no right or wrong.
11:10 ref 9:56
If you think that is nasty, 9:56 was being nice campared to things I have read in the past, here and other blogs.
Check out
savesd15.blogspot.com/ you'll see what I mean.
I am a SD 15 resident and voted for the pre-k busing under the assumption that it applied across the board. I had no idea that it applied to the Yeshivas only. Had I known, I never would have voted for it (I am a private school parent).
It doesn't apply only to yeshivas - it applies only to programs with at least 5 kids from District 15. If the District had to pay for children to be bussed individually to any programs, then the cost would be astronomical. It has nothing to do with yeshivas. There were orthodox pre-k programs that were effectively excluded as well.
All pre-k kids in public school already get free bussing from the district as well
10:37 AM: Not just the Yeshivas, but only CERTAIN Yeshivas.
And to others, don't think for one moment that ALL public school parents are pro-ALPS, LTA or anti-Orthodox. Just like a group should not be judged as a whole (all Orthodox in the Lawrence School District), you should not judge all public school parents as a whole.
All pre-k kids in public school get free busing THIS year because of the universal pre-k program the state has provided, specifically allowing busing for this program for public school students. Take up your gripe about this with the Commissioner of Education.
Pre-k busing last year was covered under a public school GRANT from the state.
Other districts have universal pre-k without bussing
You are all so ignorant. This is why G-d brings about Holocaust after Holocaust ... the Jew/Jew hatred is sickening. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. And what's worse is that ROSH HASHANA is next week. You should all be shaking in your boots because G-d doesn't take lightly to that!!!
11:48
How is your psychotic rant any different than:
"Repent Sinners! God's wrath will be felt upon all those who do not accept HIS son as their savior"
Oh and God brought upon the Holocaust?
Are you for real?
Again, that's some belief system you've got there!
A DECISION BY THE COMMIISSIONER HAVE BEEN OVERTURNED:
In a 1998 case, the court overturned a decision by State Education Commissioner Richard Mills from removing a 10-day suspension from the school records of a student
spoken like a TRUE atheist ... Yes, G-d controlls EVERYTHING ... one day you will realize that and then it will be too late. Sorry but the truth hurts you ignorant SOB
Thank you yeshaya. Could you give me a specific, such as who vs. who?
Thank you.
orthodox vs non orthodox ... fyi ALL jews were killed in germany ... whether the kept shabbat, kosher etc or not so whether you like it or not ...
IN THE MATTER OF BOARD OF EDUCATION OF MONTICELLO CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT, RESPONDENT,v.COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION, RESPONDENT, JEFFREY HERZOG ET AL., APPELLANTS.
N.Y.2d 133, 690 N.E.2d 480, 667 N.Y.S.2d 671 (1997)
December 2, 1997
Yeshaya, I found it - the Herzog case the Commissioner ruled on in 1995 and overturned on appeal in 1998. Commissioner ruled in favor of the student and appeals ruled against. Interesting case.
However, I can't find any other case that has been overturned. Can you?
Thanks.
Can't you guys grow up?
Why does it matter to a public school parent if a child gets bussed on a day that the public schools are closed?
I understand that the private school parents are paying high tuitions (which many cannot afford) and sacrificing to give their children a jewish education. But surely no one wants the public schools to be anything but tops in the country. I am always so proud when a Lawrence student wins the Westinghouse (Intel) or other prizes for scholastic achievement.
I really hoped that this board would see that it is time to build bridges and not start a power struggle from which no one will benefit.
It is truly a sad day when we have neighbors snitching on each other and squabbling over every little thing.
And release that $30 million to the schools already!! Since the board is "fiscally responsible" we don't have to worry that it will be misspent. There are many capital improvements that must be made, why give back the $$ only to float a bond (that will probably be voted down) in a few years?
But as far as being able to drive or walk your kids to school yourself. Unfortunately the days of having a parent at home with the children are over. Most mothers and fathers work out of the home, and the children are cared for by illegal immigrants (that is a whole other discussion) who don't drive.
It is so hard to sit here and watch our beautiful neighborhood being split apart by people behaving like 2 year olds.
Stop the war!! Show some respect. We are all human beings. Someone invoked the name of God before - But surely you know that He demands that each person respect the other. Sit down and negotiate like adults.
My hope for the new year is to see positive growth in the community built on mutual respect.
Shabbat shalom
For the record, please bone up on your "its" v. "it's" usage. This applies to both public and private school parents! If you are using "it’s"--it's because you mean "it is." "It's" is a contraction. OK?! Use "its" when you are referring to a possession, such as in the following sentence: "The law firm that represents the School Board is the only entity making money off of the contentions among the school board, private school and the public school parents; therefore, perhaps the firm should donate some of "its" fees back to the school district."
It's better when it's is used in its proper manner!
OK--back to our regularly scheduled program of hate and rhetoric.
Yikes, there are some scary people here! God brought on the Holocaust because of the Jews?
Time to sign off of this loony-blog. I've started to wonder why OM likes starting these fights. Doesn't she experience enough fighting in her town? Do they need to be brought to the internet so I can be even more ashamed of my fellow observant Jews?
I grew up in this area, and I am orthodox. I find that the newer influx (fine, jump on me if you will) of young orthodox parents in this area expect that they are entitled to perks from the school district that no one previously would have thought to ask for. I was always proud of the great scores and reputation of the Lawrence district, and hope that we can turn that around again. It won't happen from divisive namecalling and backbiting.
1:12 PM: I applaude you. I am in this community for over 40 years and it has never, NEVER been as terrible as it is now.
I can't imagine living there, and would never consider it after reading these comments. Talk about ruining something that was pretty terrific. I grew up on Long Island and can't believe what's happened to the Five Towns.
What is being done by the current board and those in the recent past is innovation not distruction. The district 15 school system is being transformed into an infrastructure that can address the developmental needs of all students in the district, not just those that attend class in the public buildings. Think of it this way... a private school student is a student of the public system that sits in a different class room due to special needs.
Sorry, but even though I send my kids to Yeshivah, I do not consider your analogy accurate. My children go to a private Jewish school because we WANT to, not because we NEED to. I had Orthodox friends, when I was growing up, who did not go to Jewish schools and they did fine. Please do not compare our children to kids who must be helped in order to have any education at all. It is an insult to parents of genuine "special needs" children.
I agree with Anon 1:05. I am still in shock that someone actually believes that God brought upon the holocaust and will bring upon another if we anger Him.
This from a religious person no less! (wink)
Did you even realize how ignorant YOU sound?
You must also believe that God brought upon AIDS to punish gay people. Or that God made the WTC fall because he was unhappy about some event or behavior.
Honestly. Where does your obsessive devotion to the torah and your lunacy begin and end?
It is all becoming blurred to you. Isn't it?
You truly are in need of medication and/or therapy. I would feel sorry for you and your mental imbalance but it is clear to me (and others) that not only does Orthodoxy breed fanaticism but also that you are, at the core, a hateful person.
I'm anon 1:05 and I appreciate your support of my post, but I must say that I would appreciate it if you did not group that loon with me and my fellow observant Jews. Believe me, not all Orthodox people would think or say such a thing, nor do all Orthodox people agree with the Orthodox points of view expressed in the Five Towns and here, with their great sense of angry entitlement.
I promise you that Orthodoxy in Judaism (or other religions) need not breed fanaticism, bigotry, rudeness or just plain craziness.
Yeshaya, I understand your analogy and agree with it in theory, but this has to happen only within the confines and the jurisdiction that the highly regulated public school system allows, which is dictated by State laws.
As for 1:36 PM, people with that type of mentality is what keeps the Five Towns "GHETTO" thriving.
the state will make sure that the district stays within the guidlines but this district is going to continue to push the envelope and set new precedents. Even if the state ulitmately rejects the current pre-k bussing (both busing and bussing are correct in websters - Anon 9:53) the board will come again with another try along with other innovative approaches to facilitate the developmental needs of all children in the district.
2:01 PM: Absolutely. As long as it is legal in all areas, nobody, and I mean NOBODY is against ALL the children in the community receiving proper resources.
I can only speak for the non-ALPS/LTA and fanatical people out there. They are the relative minority here and will stay as such.
Don't put all public school parents and group them together with the fanatics please.
Yeshaya first let me state that by your past comments, I can without a doubt state that you have some serious issues and that you need to work out on your own or with professional assistance. As for your link, is that the best you can find, one ruling that was in reference to a child being suspended? This while they did rule that Mills’ decision was correct, they just found that since the information he was disseminating was so egregiously vile and that the possibility of violence was apparent, they chose to uphold the suspension. Wow, that was really a case on point, thanks for the info.
Leave Yeshaya alone. He/She was simply answering a question with a case. The statement given that he/she was answering was "No decision of Commissioner Mills was ever overturned." Simple as that. Yeshaya simply provided a case that was overturned on appeal. One case. The content is immaterial.
Who is jumping down his/her throat a bit prematurely? Shame on you.
I think that the board should have investigated whether or not it was legal to put the bussing on the table before it ever came to a vote. Only now, when a select few public school parents complained about it did the commissioners office discover its illegality and took the bussing away from everyone. If those parents wouldn't have been so spiteful maybe the bussing wouldn't have been taken away from the 4 yr old public school kids either. If we could just learn to look the other way (and I am not excusing what the board did) but things could have remained status quo with ALL 4 year olds receiving bussing.
Questions, don't resolutions that are being voted on have to be cleared by a higher branch of government before the public votes on it. If that is the case then how could that resolution ever make it to the ballot in the first place?
2:48 Good to hear. Lets continue to build a district without walls
3:35 Thank you for your support. Let's continue to keep this blog as high minded and constructive as possible.
Our district is existing in unchartered territory and we have an opportunity to be creative and develop a unique education system that can serve as a model for other communities around the country. When you experiment you make mistakes, but if you don't experiment you never learn.
those parents wouldn't have been so spiteful maybe the bussing wouldn't have been taken away from the 4 yr old public school kids either
While much of the community thinks this was out of spite, I ask you open your eyes for one moment. If you are going to offer pre-k busing to private schools it should not only go to yeshivas. I am sorry it is unacceptable. Like most public school parents I was upset with the timing of this decision. Mills typed it on the 31, why it could not be sent then, is a mystery. Yes, there are public school parents that are against the private school community, but please don't lump all of us into one group. We have a right to appeal things that we know are not legal. If your child went to catholic school you would have been highly offended. For those of us who have seen the Middle School and # 6 grounds, we know the board can be doing sooo much more for our children, ALL our children. The VOIP system could link children from other schools to take AP courses, children who are sick at home, etc. Yes, it might be an investment, but aren't are children with the money?
The phone system will be paid for not out of district money but out of money from our EXCEL grant. Money the state gave districts to imporve school capital improvement projects. Ladies lets put our heads together, perhaps an indoor pool would be nice? Hewlett Long Beach all have pools. The revenue from the pool could pay for it eventually.
1:36pm
I agree with you,
what in G-d's name is 1:41 talking about??? Ghetto mentality!!
1:41 and Yeshaya you have no idea what a "special needs" child is. Have you heard that 1 out of 150 children now have autism??
Boy what a bubble you must live in.
and blessed are you that you don''t know any children with autism,
or are you the type that just avoids
all the special need children?
Not your problem?
1:05 and 1:12, 1:37 I agree with you too.
Our district is existing in unchartered territory and we have an opportunity to be creative and develop a unique education system that can serve as a model for other communities around the country.
What unfortunate community do you intend to invade next????
As the parent of a medically frail child I ask you to open you minds for a moment. Having a true special needs child is stressful enough but listening to the fighting back and forth about busing when I would give my right arm to have him healthy. To add to the stress of calling the school nurse to give daily information only to be rerouted, and not get through is immense. So as far as busing goes, you know how I feel. To find out that the new phone system will not be installed till January, because the board wants to use the grant angers me beyond belief. Why not dip into our funds? What could be more important than the safety of our children. To add insult to injury our lovely bus companies owner REFUSED rudely might I add to have any drive learn how to use an epi-pen. He told me I would be lucky if the driver called 911. No lie. Lovey, right, no matter what side your on, 10 million a year and the man could care less if our kids live. The us vs you mentality needs to end. As parents you have to understand that the public school need some work. A few weeks ago public school parents were called sore loosers, and some parents felt their children should be bused to pre-k as well, now many are crying foul. You can't have it both ways. The laws are their for a reason. If the private community fixed the schools, updated the technology, and did the necessary things, guarantee, most arguments will stop. This is something most people don't realize.
5:26, is agree with your statements and feel your pain, but I do want to point out the following changes to your last few sentences::
If the [private] PUBLIC community [fixed the schools], gave a little over the years [updated the technology, and did the necessary things,] and didn't over the years squeeze the private community... guarantee, most arguments [will stop] would never have happened. This is something most people don't realize.
Why do sects of Orthodox families move into a neighborhood with a thriving public school system, high public school taxes and a town that does not offer them alot; it seems to me that the fate of these incredible south shore towns has been determined....as if it were a plan; move in, conquer and mold everything to your way of life???....There are so many orthodox families who disagree with whats going on here, but there shuls support them, helping them with down payments on houses like an advetisement I read in the paper about Oceanside???..I assume there next???
I agree with 6:08 PM. If the district wasn't on austerity 5 years in a row because the budget was voted down time after time, and we didn't have to play catch-up with needed repairs and upgrades, we wouldn't be having most of these conversations today.
The public school parents didn't create this situation - only reacting to it. And NOW the private school community, who supports and believes in segregation and division, cannot stand side by side to support a community for ALL of the children.
Who created this atmosphere in the first place? Look back and you will see.
Hearing next Friday Judge McConnell's court.
Oops. O'Connel's. Sorry.
Dear Anon 9:53 (what day, I know not). I agree with you. Bussing is the act of passionate kissing as in "Men kiss their wives but buss their girlfriends"
For the record - had I know that they meant to exclude ALL private schools and only had the votes apply to yeshiva I wouldn't have voted ... and I am orthodox and I send my kids to yeshiva.
In the future the resolutions should be explained better and also cleared with all branches of government before being out to a vote.
While I understand the price for tuition, I would like to say, when pre-k busing was taken away in 2004, my daughter went to the creative child pre-k. This was at the # 4 school and I had to pay for it. Bussing was NOT included, I had to drive to school. The children in the free pre-k who had to meet state criteria, which was audited by the state, had busing. It was not until last year the board decided to make universal pre-k that 18 financially secure children were bussed. It was the boards idea. I personally don't care about pre-k busing I would much rather have afterschool bussing, and considering the fact the board discusses how much surplus each year, I don't understand where all this money is going to? There has been cuts in more programs, the grounds are a mess, and the private school got nothing as well. There has been a hornets nest on the grounds of one of the schools for 3 days, and all they did is put up cones. If you read the budget, besides transportation, the district pays for books, library books, software, and although boces provides the nurses we pay for each nurse in every school that our district busses children too. Many private schools order wonderful new software, Shulamith just installed smart boards, like most Nassau schools. We have ten year old computers. When you only offer pre-k busing to eight yeshivas, you are leaving out catholic schools and prep schools. Including the fact the written law confirms the judges decision. The actual decision is on save sd 15 blog. If the board offered busing to ALL kids, this would not have happened. While some peole use this as a victory to the private schools, it really did not pass by that much, showing the community was not exactly pleased. I don't what the answer is, but my children should not suffer for some (not all) feel entitlement. Cell phones do not work in all our schools, with so many medically fragile children it is obvious bussing 4 year olds is far more important. If the phone does not work and something happens to any child ALL of us will be responsible . The children need to come first, one child hurt is one too many
"The actual decision is on save sd 15 blog. If the board offered busing to ALL kids, this would not have happened. "
That had nothing to do with the decision. Many Yeshivas were left out of the pre-k busing proposal also. there was a mileage requirement to qualify for the busing, which makes perfect sense otherwise there would be buses with 2 kids on them transporting them 30 miles every day. brandeis qualified, and it isnt an orthodox school.
10:53 PM, you are right on all bases.
The budget was voted down 5 times, which meant the schools were on austerity. Any surplus could not be spent on anything other than direct educational costs.
This is the first year in a while where we aren't on austerity. There is a LOT of catching up to do, and repairs/upgrades should come first before anything else.
I don't know what this board is waiting for - an accident to happen? A child to die? This is shameful and a terrible liability for the district, not to mention the health and safety of children. The sooner the board starts to fix things, as well as upgrade technology, the better. The board is placing their priorities in the wrong place - to think about closing schools before fixing up what needs to be done in schools that aren't even in consideration for closing!
with 2 kids on them transporting them 30 miles every day.
So? If there is to be equality it should be for all equally. We bus two kids to crown heights every day, why is that not a waste of money. Either way the edcuational law prohibits it. It is not a conspiracy. Also, the district attorney has been investigating the district since the summer, and now the state is reveiwing our procedures, so it looks like we all will loose.
If Crown Heights is less than 15 miles from the child's house, there is no illegality that I see.
Good morning Orthomom...The lawrence school district is not going ANYWHERE. You think because you run the board you have won; you have won nothing...Now deal with the state. The money your community donates to senators, politicians, and campaigns can only go so far. We are going to expose your Secret and sneaky ways to the news, papers, websites, and media. Your conduct and lack of concern shown at board meetings has been documented by video and will be used as a last ditch effort to humiliate your community..Imaginge channel 7 news recieving a copy of the first school board meeting held tuesday night; a board member; Mr. Hatten did not even know that school started the very next day??? You have to be kidding me!!!You have swung a bat at a HUGE bee's nest and let me tell you the Orthodox school board, NOT the Orthodox community as a whole, will regret even trying to tamper with our Children. We are going to dismantle your board before you dismatle OUR schools...and it will be done 100% legally with the hepl of the Media!...
"The money your community donates to senators, politicians, and campaigns can only go so far. We are going to expose your Secret and sneaky ways to the news, papers, websites, and media."
wow. we're back to this. maybe you should put up posters of us looking like Shylock, with exaggerated hooked noses. But your threat doesn't really make sense, because if we control the media anyway with our bags of money, then how could we lose a media war? (eyeroll)
Perhaps scores have dropped in-part due to (1) tv-raised kids; (2) culture of ease; (3) food, not stimulation, at home; (4) parents who would rather point fingers than accept responsibility for their own failures; and (5) a greater focus on materialism by parents than a religious/spiritual home (whatever the religion).
While parents drive fancy cars and speak on fancy phones, they curse and spit at their neighbors ... with kids in the car.
Honking a car horn and flashing the finger on a Saturday to a religious family walking is no different than yelling a racial insult or throwing eggs at a church. It all comes from the same place.
Time will tell if anyone, or any group, has broken the law. But if you are going to embrace the law and demand that it be enforced, you need to also respect the presumption of innocence. In the same way that the actions of past boards will be investigated, the current board will be. Until then, be respectful and a good influence for your chil(ren).
It is ridiculous that many embrace the "best interest" of kids, while exposing those same kids to hate-filled/divisive/angry rants. Not only have I heard those rants in the presence of kids, but I have read them in public forums.
I am no priest or rabbi, and I like a good argument as much as the next person, but nothing good will come of the public displays of hate. Our kids will never heal from the open sores of hate. What they see at home is likely what they will pass on to their kids.
Nobody has invaded anyone. Anyone can relocate. Anyone can elect to send their children to a different school. Anyone can choose a private school over vacations, beach club, plasma and BMW. Kids come first, right? If it is so bad, and you are so hopeless as to be reduced to hate-filled parents who cannot exercise self-control, then you at least have these options.
MJ, I agree with you wholeheartedly with everything you say, except public school parents do not have a choice as to what schools they send their children to.
ANON 11:54 AM wrote "MJ, I agree with you wholeheartedly with everything you say, except public school parents do not have a choice as to what schools they send their children to."
There are other school districts, and several excellent private schools to choose from. That was my point when I suggested that kids come first, well before the vacations/beach clubs/plasmas/BMW. There are choices for schools, all of which require spending money, that are available to public school parents.
Religious Jewish families are not the only ones budgeting to send their children to private schools. The decision to send to private school is not always founded on religion.
10:55 PM
"Religious Jewish families are not the only ones budgeting to send their children to private schools."
Of course not. There are also the families unfortunate enough to live in districts that are controlled by religious Jewish families...
Not everyone has the option to send their children to private schools.
Not everyone has a BMW or even a vaction. Many district residents rent. Taxes still have to be paid.
Many, many residents like where they live,- they don't like the fighting over public schools.
Other residents have special needs students and the public schools of Lawrence have a great special ed. program that the private schools just cannot offer.
Moving and private schools are just not an option for everyone.
Have you ever heard what J.O.B. stands for?
Just Over Broke= JOB.
I like than one, JOB. Thanks ANON 8:27am! I am right there with you, if in fact you are.
So then you (ANON 11:36pm) do agree with everything I had written. Great. Public school parents do in fact have the choices that I listed, among other choices. Private school parents also have a choice.
Private school parents elect to spend more on their children's basic education for their own reasons, and public school parents elect not to for their own reasons. Spending more does not translate into greater love, it just is a fact. Private school is more expensive than public school. Nor does sending a child to private school mean a parent is "spending" it; many children is private school (of all religions) receive scholarships (need or merit based).
If spending money alone was the measure for parental affection, those vacations/plasmas/BMW (or leased domestic economy car) and beach clubs would be 100% justified. One of my points before, one that you ANON (11:54am) initially agreed with me "wholeheartedly" with, was simply that spending money on those things should be secondary to educating our children.
I get your point. As a parent it would be nice to have an excellent school available for your child(ren) that is "free". Nobody can debate that. It is a truism. But if you, as a parent, are dissatisfied with the public school within your district, then you do have the choice to move or pay for private education. You did agree with me that nobody has invaded anyone, and that anyone can relocate.
There are other lawful choices as well, such as voting, that are a good influence for those same children for whom you are asserting their "best interest". And thise choice is available to us all, JOB (just over broke), PHD (papa has dough), and others who fall into additional witty categories/abbreviations.
Setting aside those other choices that are indeed available, if a parent elects to send their child(ren) to public school and seeks change through the voting/judicial process, that parent should be respectful and a good influence for his/her child(ren) during that process.
Suggesting that public school parents no longer have a choice because they have the "misfortune" of living in a district "controlled by religious Jewish families" is therefore simply not accurate. The choices may not be ideal, and some require giving up vacations/plasmas/beach clubs and/or working car, but there are choices.
As a follow up, keep in mind that there do exist families of all religions that HEAVILY borrow against their homes/credit cards/retirement accounts to pay for the private school education of their child(ren). I recognize that many parents simply have no alternative but to send their child(ren) to public school. And for those parents who truly do live without (NO "unnecessary" monthly expenses), you would be right, there are no viable alternatives if a private school is unwilling to extend a need or merit based scholarship.
So voting would appear to be last straw for those who truly live without, has been denied a scholarship at private school and who must send their child(ren) to public school. My point still remains; while seeking change through the voting/judicial process, that parent should be respectful and a good influence for his/her child(ren) during that process.
If there is anyone upset about the percentage of Orthodox buying homes in the 5 Town area, why not encourage other people to look at our neighborhood? Down the block from me there is a family who is not jewish, and they are happy to be here. They like the public schools, and the family environment that everyone exhibits; orthodox, non-orthodox, and every other kind of family.
Who is going to want a public school that has 7 thru 12 grades together?
Packed like sardines, 30 or more children to a class. No, it is not like that yet, the teachers contract prohibits it until 2010. Then what...in 2010.
next year 5 thru 8 graders together? change a building then change another building.
Would you move to any district with that in the near future? No it hasn't taken place, yet, but if the private school parents can get away it they will.
So again I ask would move in to a public school district with the above going on?
How about if it were your private school, would you look for a new one?
The attorneys from our school put in an rfp for 200,000. Wow! The actual pre-k busing did not pass by that much, and frankly, I know most who would much rather have the afterschool late bus. This way children could receive after school help. This seems more about the children and less about the parents. What the heck......
mj said...
"I recognize that many parents simply have no alternative but to send their child(ren) to public school."
Most parents aren't interested in an alternative to public school. You act as if people send their kids to public school as a last resort. When people live in an area like Long Island they pay for and expect a first rate public school system run by people with an actual interest in public education.
Well MJ, the beach club ended 13 years ago, no BMW, an 8 year old car, a 21 year old car, and a "new" 15 year old car for my oldest child. I work full time, my spouse works part time so she can still make school meetings, keep tabs on the children, make all of our meals, etc. No debt except for a mortgage, live in a 50 year old house that needs repairs, our property is 50x90, and yes, both of us (parents) were born, raised and graduated from local schools. So, we can't swing tuition for two of our children who are still in school.
My parents moved to this area 50 years ago and paid high taxes so that their children could have a great education. My children get a great education and are nurtured in the Lawrence School District. There's no reason for alternative education at all, except for those who CHOOSE to do it.
I do not begrudge anyone who chooses to send their child to private school. It is every ones right. I have a problem when our district provides more than the state mandates. Besides transportation, books, nurses provided by Boces, paid for by district, we also provided software, far more modern than ours. Rumors of kids at private schools getting double books is just the tip of the rumors. When you hear the district sent 11 buses out a day before public school started when they know it is against state law that shows arrogance. When the district transports students on public school legal holidays, it shows just plain disreguard for state laws that everyone else has to follow. It is time to stop this attitude of entitlement that some in this community feel they are entitled too. The law is the law, it does not provide equality for private schools. Perhaps filing a lawsuit is the answer. The district has to come to terms and be able to answer why on earth they would give a law firm a 200,000 retainer(foil from clerks office) to fight 1 million to be spent on 4 year old busing. The phones don't work, the High School is one year away from restructuring, but yeah, lets approve free building usage. Shame Shame, where are your priorities.
remember it is all about the children....
whose...depends which side of the fence you are on.
$200,000 is ONLY a retainer fee..
but remember it is about ALL the children....
For a $200k retainer, they must have finally found some competent counsel. Looks like Betsy might have to quit her day job to keep up with the new dream team.
they must have finally found some competent counsel.
Well, the purchase order was for our current attorney. The one that let this referendum go through to begin with. I don't really think Ms. Meyerson needs to quit anything. The law is the law, so what is there to fight. Unfortunately the state is now reviewing all records, a board who refuses to fix the schools but will spend $200,000 for attorneys who got them in this jame to begin with. Classic....
$200,000 is ONLY a retainer fee..
but remember it is about ALL the children....
No, transportation is an adult issue,sending to 8 yeshivas only is opening the door for the ACLU to come marching in. I wouldn't be surprised if they came next. The education is the law. Perhaps, the board should wipe the egg before making it worse.
Why would they need a $200k retainer for the firm that they have already retained?
Good question, perhaps the court battle? Only in Lawrence, perhaps the 200,000 is to help convince the public it was not their fault they did not know how to read that pre-k busing was illegal under state law?
Maybe it is a retainer for the year. The District Attorney is currently investigating the district for election law violations, The state is reviewing everything, the ACLU is filing a complaint because only yeshivas were picked to bus to, and the NAACP is currently reviewing the ELA scores. Take your choice. But hey, pre-k busing must come first. The children must all be equal.
It was a $200,000 PO, for the attorneys. If it is being listed as a retainer, then it may have simply been their yearly retainer. Although I would hate to think we start the year by giving attorneys $200K and all they have to do at the moment is defend the Board's arrogant decisions.
URGENT FYI:
COMMUNITY MEMBERS DIES IN TARGIC ACCIDENT:
SEE: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/
Heard that the Board will charge employess for parking, lots cost money to maintain. money will be used to allow for free building usage for nonprofit organizations like little leagues, buccaneers,community centers and temple leagues. Interesting idea, just a rumor though.
Applause should go out to the Board and its administration for finally championing the Princeton Plan. It is odd that with all the talk of rights and laws none of the socalled "public school" parents cared about our segregated schools.This current Bd does and will end the segregation. This Board, with Hatten at the helm is committed to end the abomitable scores of our "at risk" children. Not one "public school" advocate has mentioned that. Instead they lie by saying that grants from the state covered the preK programs in the past. Nothing is further from the truth. As far as preK busing is concerned the law,whatever that law might be will be upheld. Whether that law or its interpretation will withstand civil rights scrutiny is a second question. Meanwhile, this Board will make us all proud with a Princeton Plan,a comprehensive plan(well thought out) of making the remaining schools state of the art and an absolute commitment to educate all the children, the at risk as well as the others.
It’s nice to see the true colors of the Private School community since implementation of the Princeton Plan in this district would comprise closing at least one more school and placing many children of differing ages into a single school. Why don’t you just admit what you would like to do is place us in cattle cars on the back of the Far Rockaway line and ship us out
"Why don’t you just admit what you would like to do is place us in cattle cars on the back of the Far Rockaway line and ship us out"
Right. Because that's just about the same thing as ending the de facto segregation that goes on in the Lawrence schools now.
Wow! Maybe you need some sleep. It is flat out nuts to invoke that image. It is hard to believe that an extreme view like the one you obviously hold can be 100% hidden from your kids. So what are you teaching your kids about the orthodox community? Let me guess, on the one hand you say that you encourage free thought in the house by your children, yet you share with them your "balanced" opinion of orthodox jews. Cannot wait to see what happens if your free thinking child brings home an orthodox jew to marry. It really is nuts to invoke a nazi image to make your point about a public school. Hmmm, genocide or closing a school ...
We are currently running a system where prek,K and grades 6-12 are integrated. All children go to school at the same place in the same grade. In grades 2-5 we practice de facto segregation. The demographics of Number Two versus Number 5 school are damning. The racial profile of two is vastly close to 2 and 1/2 times different from 5 and in fact its poverety index is more than 2x higher than 5 school. The Princeton plan will TOTALLY correct this segregated deficiency. The segregation will not go on.
I do not know if it is legal to change the way we do business and charge employees for parking but it sounds like a good idea. it is hard for me to believe that previous Bds reasoned that it is better to charge volunteer organizations for the use of the buildings they are all ready taxed to maintain while employees park for free.In the Middle School the teachers have their own parking lot. Most employees I know are charged for parking. If we choose not to charge our employees for parking than we ought to have enough funds not to charge non profit organizations for the use of buildings. Is it true that we charge the Little league and Inwood Bucaneers for building usage but allow free parking for employees, even at Union meetings?
7:30 am
put the question the other way, how would and will you feel when your child brings home a non-ortho?
12:34
applaud the bd? other than the bussing what has this bd done, oh paid more money to the lawyers.
what has the bd. done for the children of the district?
either private or public?
nothing but cause more me, mine, I want, you can't have it.
you think it is a joke that the phone system is not working?
don't give me the previous bds.
problems,
even it was caused by pervious bds. on purpose- it is this bds. responsibility to fix it.
The middle school and #6 school phones in nurses offices donot work all the time. Sometimes #6 nurse can call out sometimes not, sometimes she can answer it sometimes not.
and #6 has a new nurse she started on Monday.
Oh what is the big deal!
Well it's not my child, and what if it was? Makes no difference to me, I care about all the children.
There are medically impaired children, who have their own nurses with them in our buildings, don't think that it is
"no big" deal
that the phones don't work. An emergencgy vote to repair the phone system was taken in Jan.07 as of today still no repair. I have heard repairs may-may- begin in Jan.08. NICE.
If one child is hurt because of that old phone system it is on the heads of this bd.
Previous bds.- under law cannot repair anything when a budget doesnot pass.
Many private school parents think oh the princeton plan..great put 7th thru 12 graders together.
I keep asking
where are you going to put the Special Ed District Students?
They need thier own classrooms.
If 6 months ago we could not close any schools,
now, because of a new bd.
all of a sudden is ok, to close a school, or two?
Stop counting the chickens before they are hatched.
You can walk all over me, but when it comes to students/children of either private or public,
baby I'm telling you , you are going to have to go thru me frist. Our special ed students are not- NOT- going to be placed in a closet or hallway to have their
services.
In grades 2-5 we practice de facto segregation. The demographics of Number Two versus Number 5 school are damning. The racial profile of two is vastly close to 2 and 1/2 times different from 5 and in fact its poverety index is more than 2x higher than 5 school. The Princeton plan will TOTALLY correct this segregated deficiency. The segregation will not go on.
Well I must admit that the arguments to close a school are at least becoming more imaginative, using the Princeton plan to integrate our schools. Oh and I guess when everyone is integrated, then we will all of a sudden feel the need to close one of them because of underutilization…hmmmm. Are we now to believe that anyone in the Orthodox community cares about the pseudo segregation which is now being claimed? It’s called demographics; different people live in different areas and attend the school which is located in that area. Since you chose to use #2 and #5, I just thought I would throw you an FYI, #6 is 51% minority and 49% white, I think that’s pretty damn good from an integration standpoint. As long as we are on the subject, what is the racial make-up of any particular Orthodox Private School in the general vicinity, I’ll hazard a guess that it’s not 51-49%; now tell me who is practicing segregation…
I do not know if it is legal to change the way we do business and charge employees for parking but it sounds like a good idea.
Maybe if the district charged for parking, there wouldn't be a 200% increase in employee parking at LMS on election days (though it certainly is an ingenious way to keep voters from the polls)
It is odd that with all the talk of rights and laws none of the socalled "public school" parents cared about our segregated
First of all my daughter attends #6 where she is the minority. That is right minority. For those who are really interested in segregation the #6 school has a population of 47% receiving free lunch. In any event, go for the princeton plan. Here is a secret, we do the princeton plan, the middle school and #2 are title 1, we do not make AYP,( which we won't guaranteed) two years in a row we go into school that needs improvement. Since the schools will be title 1 there are different rules that apply to AYP(adequate yearly progress). Two years in a row we get school choice. Oops, we closed all our elementry schools. New York would require the district to send to other school districts. Wow that would cost a lot! In any event princeton plan all the way!!! Even though the consultant last year said it can't be done, what the heck. The middle school would need millions to convert, and the grounds would have to be redone. If you want the absolute facts, Foil the report from last year. Either way, I really am looking towards my kids attending hewlett, I mean the middle school
Can wait to see your kids in hewlett either. (it will cost less than the 24,000 it costs us now.)
I don't know if Hewlett will want these kids. Maybe Valley Stream.
The further the better, public school kids litter my lawn, play basket ball in the street so I can't drive down my block and play music at night. Valley Stream sounds great.
Can wait to see your kids in hewlett either. (it will cost less than the 24,000 it costs us now.
We really need far more accurate information. Hewlett actually spends 25,960 per pupil and that is actual. The per pupil cost includes transportation, books, nursing costs that boces provides we pay, software etc. If you read the line item budget it comes to over 15 million dollars. Even the board admits our per pupil cost is about 17,900. We spend 14,370 on educational costs only. If we do have to send our children to Hewlett, which they will want us, and even Valley Stream whose school grounds are impeccable, and scores are through the roof we will be paying so much more. My daugher scored 4's on both tests last year like most of her friends. This district gets money when our children attends school, and they also need our children to take the tests to keep their average up. You would think this community would want to keep this district from going down. Many private school children attend our schools. The community may vote against us, which is the democratic way, but my daughter and her friends can all get the flu during state tests causing the district to have to explain the 50% drop. Be careful what you wish for.
The further the better, public school kids litter my lawn, play basket ball in the street so I can't drive down my block and play music at night. Valley Stream sounds great.
Lets see so you have a camera that watches who liters your lawn. The kids play basketball? Their afterschool programs were cut, would you rather them rob you? You can't drive down your street, I won't even touch that. The music at night, perhaps asking them to turn it down please would be a step towards quiet. I have the opposite problem. I live by a shul, and my lawn is trashed with garbage children throw during services, I can't get through on Saturday to drive, as I don't want to kill somone, and the singing at night when my baby is trying to sleep is sometimes frustrating, we lived here before the shul was built, I bet those kids were always there.
The further the better, public school kids litter my lawn, play basket ball in the street so I can't drive down my block and play music at night. Valley Stream sounds great.
Lets see so you have a camera that watches who liters your lawn. The kids play basketball? Their afterschool programs were cut, would you rather them rob you? You can't drive down your street, I won't even touch that. The music at night, perhaps asking them to turn it down please would be a step towards quiet. I have the opposite problem. I live by a shul, and my lawn is trashed with garbage children throw during services, I can't get through on Saturday to drive, as I don't want to kill somone, and the singing at night when my baby is trying to sleep is sometimes frustrating, we lived here before the shul was built, I bet those kids were always there.
There is one thing that was left out of the NCLB school choice. The state comes in and restructures. What does this mean? The board goes. The state would appoint a board. This is a federally mandated rule under the NCLB act. Thank you George. It would be a shame if the state did take over, because all the extas (vacation busing, Regents prep, etc, would be taken away.) while I think they are necessary, it would only hurt the children, remember the people this board is supposed to be educating? I have to tell you, between the cries of segregation, which are pretty silly, to complaining about basketball in the street, people are just a little over the top. This diverse community has been here long before the recent transition of private school students. There have always been many religous people living here and none have had a complaint. I don't know where some people feel they are entitled to whatever they feel like, but it is not the fault of the public school children. Taking the money away to support their education and school facilities is
a shame. The public school pre-k busing was taken too, a long with a long list of programs. Busing does not make your kids equal. The unfortunate thing is, the government does not allow for the equality that you so demand. If there is a problem with this you need to take it up with them, and stop punishing our children. They don't deserve this, and the negative press is being brought to highlight the Jewish Community which includes conservative, and reform jews, as a group of greedy people who could care less about the poor minorities. This is something we should all be ashamed of, and the only ones we have to blame is ourselves.
12:08 It will be Valley Stream, Hewlett, Rockville Centre, Oceanside, East Rockaway, Lynbrook, Franklin Square, West Hempstead, and as many districts as it takes to educate all the children. I doubt that everyone would be able to go to just one, they will farm them out.
And guess what- not only will we be paying the tuition, the bussing too!!
There are Laws that govern Education.
Maybe they'll just pick the cheapest district and send everyone there. The savings will easily make up for any increased bussing costs.
Everyone of those districts spend a "true" 20-25k per pupil. I say true not to be snide. If you take away, transport,books,computer software,library books,special ed, and nurses provided by boces paid by our district the state has we spend about $18,000 per pupil. Forget where kids would go, once you get to school choice reorganization is mandated and the district has one year to redo or the state steps in and removes the baord. While much of the community thinks we are spending too much on the kids, the actual EDUCATIONAl cost per pupil is 14,900. Look at the state funding website and this is what you will see as well.
But of course, but the state average for actual educational cost is $7,000 (so we're more than double that) and the Nassau average is around $11,000
3:47
where are you getting your numbers?
and from what year?? this is 2007.
Did you not notice how much fuel costs have gone up, and should I remind of the price of milk??
Did you know that the Lawrence School District was located in Nassau County??
I would assume that 3:47 knows that Lawrence is in Nassau County. That's probably the reason why 3:47 cited the Nassau County average.
Are fuel and milk that much more expensive in Lawrence than elsewhere in Nassau County or elsewhere in the state? Are fuel and milk included in the "actual educational" expenditures per student?
4:24
Assume nothing.
3:47 cited State average not Nassau County average.
Please check newsday.com go to real estate section and follow the links to schools, and you will see everything, spending, teachers salaries, etc.
Elmont was the only one in Nassau that came in at $11,998.
That number only includes K thru 8 grade. High School is in another district, another fee.
I must keep reminding everyone that special ed students are included in all numbers.
Teachers vs. pupil ratio.
4:24
Assume nothing.
3:47 cited State average not Nassau County average.
I think you may want to read 3:47's comment again, before making another misinformed comment. 3:47 cites the state average AND the nassau count average
4:24
Assume nothing.
3:47 cited State average not Nassau County average.
I think you may want to read 3:47's comment again, before making another misinformed comment. 3:47 cites the state average AND the nassau count average
5:34 &5:40 &3:47
I read it again and so sorry I misread,
again where are you getting your numbers?
2:44
YOU don't get to choice where the students would go, the district would have to find a proper placement for each child.
Oh by the way, it costs about $50-60,000 for a ten month program for special ed students to leave district, that doesnot include the cost of Speech, OT, PT, etc. services.
Summmer is another $10-20,000 per student, but what the hay.
Did you know that as of today the Lawrence School District takes in
students from other districts and is paid one and half million dollars a year to educate to them.
But what the hay it's only money right.
Im a private school homeowner in Lawrence for 3 years.. Our community is in need school space whether it be grounds, classrooms or buses...if we are looking for these items and the public schools that we are paying HIGH taxes in has space to offer, according to our board, why closes these schools....why not share them; literally 1/2 the school is for the public use and 1/2 for the private use????...we can serve them kosher lunches and share the buses???what is SO difficult? we claim that we want to integrate and mesh with our surroundings...the buildings are there for our use...can we give it a try????....say with 1 school to start????...
6:52
As a public school parent my feelings are the same as yours.
Only then,
will your tuition be reduced?
Will the private schools be happy? No, I am not trying to be cruel.
If the board finds a way to close a school who do you think will buy it? A private school, ahh!!
So the private schools will not think to share, that will cut out the bottom line, the tuition you are paying.
It always comes back to the money.
I wish you and I could get others to see it our way. & Share.
to 7:02...thank you...its not all about money for us orthodox...There are not many large orthodox neighborhoods which enclave the south shore like the five towns...we,like you want our kids to grow up in suburbia..enjoying everything the city cannot offer; clean streets, beaches, caring schools...hundreds of us in our community are NOT happy with whats going on; we know what this school district has produced; we did our homework..we are not here to ruin it, at least the couple of hundred we know of...we benefit also from great school districts..I would give up my identity to see this work; sharing schools...and many others would also...we are NOT all happy with our Board!!!!!!!!!
those of you who are using every tenuous argument u can to justify segregation lets look at the demographics and poverty level in 2 vs 5. We all know its segregated. Why not admit that the PTA LTA and our good friends in Atlantic Beach do not want integration and do not care about the poor scores of our at risk children. Of course this greoup applauded a teachers contract that rewarded low grades and did not add one minute of extra time for the children who are not doing well. These groups just do not care. It was the socalled "orthodox" board that went to universal preK and used Hatten and his excellence committee to put everyone on notice that the disgraceful indifference to the achievements of our neediest children will not go unnoticed. All the sophist arguments in the world can not change the total lack of concern of the "public school" parents for the minorities in this district. Thank goodness that they are a minority who can no longer use their venom and indifference to contol the District and impede the ability of our neediest children to get a fair shake and an excellent education.
u must be kidding me 7:25...if you look at the demographics, the neighborhood schools started to go down hill when your community started moving in;say the early 1990's...really look at it; you are clueless...the people who live here are going NO WHERE...16 million dollars will be spent FROM PRIVATE PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENTS advertising the five towns and what there school districts offer and the more it will offer..yes 16 MILLION...your own kind are upset with you!!!..its fact, and its sad..your own people will remove you from the school board; no one really can see who they vote for when the curtain slides over:)
6:14
I am sorry if I what I wrote led you to believe I was talking about any orthodox parents.
I was referring to the private schools you pay your tuition to.
I would personally like to thank you Orthomom, im not even a Jew...some people are feeling that your site is being inflammed with hate and bitterness, maybe just a bit.....but it is actually the begining of something so much more.....positive....open discussion without being in a room and feeling pressured. There is something from being in the comfort of your home and sharing / venting your thoughts with the very people who make up your " Neighbors "....It would be a special moment in Time if The Five Towns can continue to be Known as a Place to Shop and Enjoy and set a precedent to carry on for many years ahead....split our schools 50% Private ( Orthodox ) and 50% District #15 ( lets not use "Public" )...." District #15 " sounds more directed towards the schoolchildren since this is what we are all hear arguing for...
oops...that should say "Here"...,not hear..
FYI... I am a Roman Catholic, my child attended a local "special service" school which was Kosher run but accepted all children with special needs. I sent in Kosher snacks, class parties I purchased cupcakes at Zomick's and birthday parties (outside school) were held on a Sunday so the entire class could attend and Kosher food was served to both children and parents. My child became friendly with one particular orthodox child, we had a playdate at their house and of course I felt the need to reciprocate. I assured the mom that I would serve any snacks and juice (kosher) in paper cups, plates.
I will never forget how grateful she was and told me how considerate I was.
It is give and take...I respect you, please respect me. Our children are still friendly, although one attends our public schools and one our private.
Is this so hard???
ortho mom has lost her edge
used to be a great blog
shana tovah and thank youn for your past great work
no longer on my favorites
8:33
My child went to No 4 last year I am ortho. My experience was the same as yours.
I am SO never moving to the "Five Towns."
All of you guys sound like a bunch of bigots.
The 50/50 split idea of the current public school facilities is an interesting one except for the fact that separation of Church and state laws would prohibit Yeshiva teachings on the property. Yes, there have been some recent court decisions allowing religious organizations to utilize space off hours, however there would be no getting around what would essentially be religious instructions on public school property during standard school hours as far as the law is concerned. If this was ever implemented, people wouldn’t need to worry about the state sneaking around and auditing, they would simply show up with an army of FBI to investigate.
Yes, because the FBI is "all over" church-state violations. Where do you get this stuff?
The Federal government oversee's this not the FBI. The FBI is white collar crimes. The district attorney-voter fraud. Look it is unfortunate what is going to happen. The busing is the tip of the iceberg. In 2005 the district submitted its Building Conditions Survey. One of the buildings mentioned received an unsatifactory on the #6 roof. Did anyone know its leaking? The architect which might I add was hired by our district, advised of the need for a new phone system. I could go on, but it is too much to list. I am currently nervous to see how the state is going to handle things once they are done with their audits. The private school community gets far more than other districts on Long Island, and with the board complaining poverty, 29 million in the bank, buses being used before public schools, (violating Education law) Busing during legal holidays, while this seems petty I feel the state will crash down, and take many "perks" ie busing during school holidays. It seems the only ones who are going to suffer are the children. Happy New Year to all, and let us hope for a sweet New Yeara
Yes, because the FBI is "all over" church-state violations. Where do you get this stuff?
Think before you comment, If you bothered to have a bit of foresight you would realize that I was talking about the financial dealings which would occur if private schools attempted to utilize public school property; or don’t you think they should pay for that either, yea, I guess with all that free building usage going around, I guess that should be for free.
Now for Anon: 12:35, several years ago the Government decided to aggressively pursue hospitals and physicians from a Medicare and Medicaid fraud perspective, they sent in an army of FBI to investigate. So to answer you and your limited view of the world we live in (ooohhh, what a surprise) the FBI does not only investigate White Collar crimes, they also investigate violent criminal actions (bank robberies etc…) as well as investigate any financial malfeasants by grant and aid recipients at the behest of the Federal and/or State Government. Think before you speak (or type for that matter) otherwise you just sound moronic.
Now after all that sarcasm, all have a Happy New Year…
You are right about what would happen if the FBI investigates us. Imagine if it found out that we do not give test during the last ten minutes of a school day at number six, so that Independent coach, which receives millions of dollars in district contracts, can voluntarily pick children up for "religion." Do you think these are orthodox children? Is this just a bedtime story ? has this practice gone on for years? Who exactly is worried about the FBI?
Happy Holidays to all. Just reading over the blogs. Is it true that we are breaking law, then it must stop. But I need clarification, why did preK busing start at the Yeshivas at a different day than the public school. Didn't everyone start on the Tuesday after Labor Day?Why would anyone get an extra day off? If it happened this year, lets make sure it does not happen next year. To the best of our ability lets line up calendars, the public calendar is within the discretion of the Board within reasonable limits isn't it? By the way, do all the paid public teachers get paid on the same salary scale? I was told they did but that preK and Kindergarten teachers may in fact be working less days than others. Is this true? I suppose the Board can demand that waste, if there is any, end. Would not the FBI look for things like that? By the way, i understood last year that Independent Coach had a contract that had not had public bids for 50 years? Was that true? How many bidders did we have last year?I'm sure that is one of the first things the FBI would look at if the "bedtime story" from the previous blog had any truth to it. The reason I feel the story must be false is because if any teacher or principal refused to give tests or teach new material during the last 10 minutes of public school class to benefit one religious group I imagine this would be illegal on many fronts. if there was no Bd policy to this effect I wonder if everyone involved in the chain of command that allowed this practice should be removed. I am sure that the same lawyer who did pro bono work to save the district from "private preK" busing would take up this cause.
"If this was ever implemented, people wouldn’t need to worry about the state sneaking around and auditing, they would simply show up with an army of FBI to investigate."
You people need to take a valium, I don't think this comment in anyway was threatening or even inferring that the FBI is or would be investigating, I think he was simply saying that first, Private and Public schools cannot occupy the same public school building at the same time and if they did, then someone (some type of government and/or state agency) would be down here in a flash to investigate...probably the FBI. However since there is no way in hell both groups would occupy a school building at the same time (that whole Church and State thingy and all), it's a moot point. Have a happy New Year all.
Sorry for the length I needed to get my point across:
Didn't everyone start on the Tuesday after Labor Day?
-Nope, Public School classes began on Wednesday.
To the best of our ability lets line up calendars, the public calendar is within the discretion of the Board within reasonable limits isn't it?
-The following year�s calendar is made available to the Private schools in June. Someone just chose to ignore it this year and allow bussing.
By the way, do all the paid public teachers get paid on the same salary scale? I was told they did but that preK and Kindergarten teachers may in fact be working less days than others. Is this true?
-The teacher�s contract is not public, so we can�t simply make a comparison teacher-to-teacher. As for working fewer days, the schedule is the same throughout the Public School District from Pre-K to High School, you may have a day or two difference due to events taking place at the specified school, but that is usually taken into account and any days off are static to all district schools.
Would not the FBI look for things like that?
-I would hope that the FBI shouldn�t be necessary to look at anything and unless you would be looking at willful fraud and abuse. In that case, the FBI could be utilized to investigate wrongdoing for a district attorney or other prosecutorial body.
Independent Coach had a contract that had not had public bids for 50 years?
-I certainly hope they have been bidding, if not, someone might want to look into why a business which is getting at least $10 million a year is getting a no bid contract for so long.
if any teacher or principal refused to give tests or teach new material during the last 10 minutes of public school class to benefit one religious group I imagine this would be illegal on many fronts.
-What would not teaching in the lat 10 minutes of the day accomplish and why would it benefit any religious group. I don�t see the relationship. Anyone feel free to elaborate as I have no idea on this one.
Now, as for the Pre-K busing, I can tell you that the vast majority of Public School parents would be more than happy to support Private Pre-K busing, it�s not that big of an issue if you must know the truth, however the implementation timing was incredibly bad. Had a school not been closed, the attitude of the Board been as adversarial as it is to the public and school repairs, curriculum and technical equipment been slated for repair and or improvement, nobody would have even opposed the referendum. Think about it, no repairs, no investment in technology, no curriculum changes, etc, etc... This, all while the board continually states fiscal responsibility ad-nauseam and then they spend at least an extra $800k for a perk? Now it is announced they the School District is looking into closing two more schools and shuttling children differing as much as 8 years to the same school, how would you feel?
5:17
Public school started on wed the 5th of sept, private school started on Tuesday the 4th.
The public schools generally follow the BOCES calander, why,?
Because. Just because..
Kindergarden, pre k, usually the first two weeks are half a day for the students only, the teachers do not go home early. Why is this done, to make it easier for the children.
Regards to an getting out early for religious studies, I remember when I was a kid, public school let out early, now, I have no idea what you are talking about. I will ask around, and let you know.
As a parent I don't care what school any student is in , I don't want any child being taught something "new" in the last 10 minutes before going home.
Again with the pre k bussing issue.
Please try to read and understand what I am about to write. Please.
The public schools have not been able to have repairs in 5 years, because of failed budgets. Why? The Law
says so.
We all pay high taxes. Private school parents pay high tuition on top of the taxes.
The new bd is elected, the school sale is complete, finally repairs can be made. The frist order of business of the Public School Bd. of Lawrence is to spend $600,000,no wait, $800,000 no wait, how much is it now?? and no matrons I don't like that idea at all. But, your child not mine, still hate the idea.
The money from sale goes into reserve acct. a "public vote" to spend any of it on repairs to public schools must be taken prior to any repairs.
The second month in office the bd. votes to see if two more schools can be closed.
The private school parents are upset the state stopped the prek bussing,and blames the public school parents for the timing. Like we really planned it.
The district lawyers should have known and warned the district,and the bd. that the bussing could be stopped.
Think back on your frist computer, the public school children are still using them. Please think about this.
Anonymous said...
You are right about what would happen if the FBI investigates us. Imagine if it found out that we do not give test during the last ten minutes of a school day at number six, so that Independent coach, which receives millions of dollars in district contracts, can voluntarily pick children up for "religion." Do you think these are orthodox children? Is this just a bedtime story ? has this practice gone on for years? Who exactly is worried about the FBI?
4:46 PM
Anonymous said...
The reason I feel the story must be false is because if any teacher or principal refused to give tests or teach new material during the last 10 minutes of public school class to benefit one religious group I imagine this would be illegal on many fronts.
5:17 PM
Anonymous said...
if any teacher or principal refused to give tests or teach new material during the last 10 minutes of public school class to benefit one religious group I imagine this would be illegal on many fronts.
-What would not teaching in the last 10 minutes of the day accomplish and why would it benefit any religious group. I don�t see the relationship. Anyone feel free to elaborate as I have no idea on this one.
6:27 PM
From the NYS Education Dept Website:
§ 109.2 Absence from school for religious observance and education.
(a) Absence of a pupil from school during school hours for religious observance and education to be had outside the school building and grounds will be excused upon the request in writing signed by the parent or guardian of the pupil.
(e) Such absence for a released time program, grades K-12 shall be for not more than one hour each week at the close of either the morning or afternoon session, or both, at a time to be fixed by the local school authorities;...
In the event that more than one school for religious observance and education is maintained in any district, the hours for absence in each particular public elementary or secondary school unit in such district shall be the same for all such religious schools.
Before you call the FBI you might want to read the law:
http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/sss/Laws-Regs/Attendance/109-2.htm
This was posted somewhere else thought I post it here.
"Lates News: Pleasantville mayor on school board corruption charges: Enough is Enough"
Publishd Wed. Sept 12, 2007
Pleasantville- The city administration issued a harsh response to corruption charges concerning five past and present school board members Wed. almost a week after they were among a dozen men arrested on conspiracy to commit extortion charges.
"This is nothing new, on several occasions the Board of Education has demonstrated that it is not capable of governing itself," Mayor Ralph Peterson wrote. "Despite hiring and firing 13 superintendents over a 12 year period, the board thought and still thinks they can do whatever they want without scrutiny. "Enough is Enough."
The men were arrested as part of an FBI corruption investigation,some in the area were not surprised.
The Judge today ruled that the pre-k bus case does not belong in Nassau County and should be transferred to Albany. He continued the stay only until the end of the month, based on the District's claim that the buses are paid up through September, and he told the Board's attorneys he saw no likelihood of success for them in this matter.
hello orthomom....I hope your having a nice New Year...One question for you...The condos built on Beach 9th st offer Elevators for the sabbath and a 300 seat synagogue...will the new units being built at #1 school have a synagogue also???and if so, does that mean these units won't pay taxes because they will claim it a congregation??????????????????????
lets keep our eyes on chaim ( Howard) Kopel who is a candidate for 7th district, Nassau county Legislature???
saw no likelihood of success for them in this matter.
While much of the community will blame public school parents, the lawyers should take the brunt of the blame. Many of the parents who filed the appeal, have children in private pre-k. Can you imagine if the board had private pre-k for only catholic schools? Either way our attorney's and board should have read the law. In May Commisioner Mills allowed the election to go through. He did this because nothing was passed and their was nothing to appeal at that point. The district and its attorneys knew this was a possibility. Why? They had to submit their response? This appeal was submitted last April/May, Why pay an attorney so much money? The appeal is costing us thousands, the busing a million, yet, we cannot find the money to expedite the phone system, go figure.
Newsday's story produced ten comments which below is the link to. It is suprising the how Long Island Views are district and the poeple in it.
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/newsday/T5Q6KT77D6NUCLUNQ
The Judge today ruled that the pre-k bus case does not belong in Nassau County and should be transferred to Albany. He continued the stay only until the end of the month, based on the District's claim that the buses are paid up through September, and he told the Board's attorneys he saw no likelihood of success for them in this matter
I am sure they will continue to appeal. Why? Then they would have to admit the attorney did not read the law, and they wasted more of the district's money....
First the five towns, next the world
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/12/us/12charter.html?ex=1190520000&en=0e14bffb8aef2d31&ei=5070&emc=eta1
First the five towns, next the world
Okay, first of all the school is a charter school. Something that many public school parents have urged the board to look into. The school teaches Hebrew, and the Jewish religion but is not allowed to advocate for it. All classes are taught in both languages. Would it not be wonderful if the Rabbi's in the five towns allowed this. Children could go to school for free...
Atlantic Beach wanted to start a charter school there but there is no space to be gotten.
Anonymous said...
First the five towns, next the world
Okay, first of all the school is a charter school. Something that many public school parents have urged the board to look into. The school teaches Hebrew, and the Jewish religion but is not allowed to advocate for it. All classes are taught in both languages. Would it not be wonderful if the Rabbi's in the five towns allowed this. Children could go to school for free...
8:37 PM
And as previous stories about this school have pointed out, it is a charter PUBLIC school, open to all comers. Just like the "Arabic" public school in Brooklyn that just opened. And we all see how well that's going over.
Lawrence schools can offer Hebrew language lessons and courses that study religious groups if they want. My kid learns about the teachings of Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc. in courses on global studies. You can't properly learn history without learning about religion and its place in history.
Head down to the district offices and sign your kids up. The door is open. And it's free.
I STRONLGY agree with 11:50PM....the schools are here....they have room....we do NOT want what happened to #1 school TO EVER HAPPEN again. If the Orthodox community can really work with us...the public school parents they will realize that there sis so much they can share if they really want to...bring a Kosher kitchen into the school...seperate the sexes...who cares...we will be studying on the other side of the building...why not even split the grounds so they can play amongst themselves???...we are all paying for these properties, arent we???
Get to know us...we are not bad people...maybe a bit curious, scared and worried, I mean what would you do if you woke up to find out that a neighborhood with over 70 years of Orthodox Jewish studies had now been in control of the Public school parents???you would question this and go out of your minds, just like we are...BUT, that would never happen because your Touro law school students are hard at work learning how to bypass the Laws of our government...
Anonymous said...
I STRONLGY agree with 11:50PM....the schools are here....they have room....we do NOT want what happened to #1 school TO EVER HAPPEN again. If the Orthodox community can really work with
us...the public school parents they will realize that there sis so much they can share if they really want to...bring a Kosher kitchen into the school...seperate the sexes...who cares...we will be studying on the other side of the building...why not even split the grounds so they can play amongst themselves???...we are all paying for these properties, arent we???
11:32 AM
Hmmm. Either the kids are in school together or not. Those other kinds of things are not permitted:
HANDBOOK ON SERVICES TO PUPILS ATTENDING NONPUBLIC SCHOOLS
VIII.Dual Enrollment Programs
Under Section 3602-c of Education Law, pupils in nonpublic schools may also enroll in public school programs in three categories: occupational, gifted, and handicapped education.
Dual enrollment is not permitted in any other areas.
No other forms of dual enrollment are available, such as
participation on teams or school bands.
The law provides that nonpublic school pupils may not be segregated from public school pupils in any dual enrollment programs.
I'm sure the kosher kitchens would be okay. You MIGHT get away with dividing the kids by sex, but never by anything like religion or race.
With the vitriol I see flowing from these pages I am sure that some one would start a law suit alleging discrimination should there be any all male or all female clubs or a first amendment claim should one which mention a belief in G-d as opposed to a secular view of Moses.
Appeal of GARVAN MCCOLGAN, LEILA EL-REZ, FU-YUN TANG, ALBERTA S. LIBBEY, STEVEN THALER, CLAUDIA THALER, EVELYN JULIANO, JUDY PIERANTONI, GARY PIERANTONI, NORMAN TURNESHINE, ARLEN RICE-COHEN, ELINOR KAISER, ELAINE ATTELL, MICHAEL ELLOWITZ MAXINE GELLER, MARILYN DIAZ, TARA INCANTALUPO, ALBERT OCCHUIZZO, MARGARET OCCHIUZZO and FRANK TORTORICI from actions of the Board of Education of the Lawrence Union Free School District regarding a transportation referendum.
Decision No. 15,650
(August 31, 2007)
Elizabeth Meyerson, Esq. attorney for petitioners
Minerva & D'Agostino, P.C., attorneys for respondents, Melinda Sims, Esq., of counsel
MILLS, Commissioner.--Petitioners appeal actions of the Board of Education of the Lawrence Union Free School District ("respondent") regarding a transportation referendum. The appeal must be sustained in part.
On March 26, 2007, respondent’s board proposed a transportation referendum (“Proposition 3”) to authorize the use of district funds for limited pre-kindergarten (“pre-k”) transportation and to reduce distance eligibility for student transportation. Specifically, with respect to pre-k transportation, Proposition 3 would provide transportation to pre-k programs that provide services to a minimum of 25 kindergarten and pre-k children, not less than five of which are residents of respondent’s district, whose residence is located not more than 7.5 miles from the public or private school at which they attend. A child must be four years of age on or before December 1st to be eligible for transportation.
Petitioners claim that the pre-k transportation criteria contained in Proposition 3 improperly restricts pre-k transportation to eight nonpublic Jewish religious schools (“eight yeshivas”). Petitioners also argue that respondent board’s allocation of $600,000 ($465,000 for transportation to the eight yeshivas and $135,000 for the district’s universal pre-k program) is not sufficient. Additionally, petitioners argue that respondent board improperly linked pre-k transportation and the reduced distance eligibility for student transportation in a single referendum. Finally, petitioners contend that Education Law does not authorize pre-k transportation.
Petitioners request that the referendum vote be stayed and that respondent board’s decision to schedule the referendum be overturned. Petitioners’ request for interim relief, staying the districtwide vote on Proposition 3, was denied on May 4, 2007. On May 15, 2007, Proposition 3 was approved by the district’s voters.
Respondent asserts that they have fully examined the costs of providing the pre-k transportation and that those costs were adequately allocated for in the budget. Respondent further asserts that Proposition 3 does not improperly link the issues of pre-k transportation and the formalization of the district’s transportation mileage policy. Respondent states that the formalization is necessary because the issue has not been voted upon in many years and current district transportation policy differs from that which is authorized. Respondent also states that transporting all pre-k children would be prohibitively expensive, but that Proposition 3 places reasonable limits on eligibility, which do not impermissibly benefit anyone. Respondent acknowledges that Education Law does not specifically authorize pre-k transportation, but argues that it does not prohibit it. Therefore, respondent claims that submitting the proposition to the district voters for their authorization was lawful. Respondent further argues that the appeal should be dismissed as moot, since the voters approved Proposition 3 on May 15, 2007.
Respondent also requests that I disregard petitioners’ reply because it is not verified and it sets forth additional facts and allegations not previously asserted. The purpose of a reply is to respond to new material or affirmative defenses set forth in an answer (8 NYCRR §§275.3 and 275.14). A reply is not meant to buttress allegations in the petition or to belatedly add assertions that should have been in the petition (Appeal of E.R., 45 Ed Dept Rep 487, Decision No. 15,389; Appeal of Ramroop, 45 id. 473, Decision No. 15,385; Appeal of C.R., 45 id. 303, Decision No 15,330). Additionally §275.5 of the Commissioner’s regulations requires that all pleadings in an appeal to the Commissioner be verified. Petitioners’ reply submits new evidence to support the allegations in his petition. Moreover, the reply submitted was not verified. Therefore, I have not considered petitioners’ reply (Appeal of a Student with a Disability, 46 Ed Dept Rep ___, Decision No 15,562; Appeal of a Student with a Disability, 46 id. 102, Decision No 15,454; Appeal of Nocerino, 40 id. 244, Decision No. 14, 472).
The appeal must be dismissed as moot to the extent that petitioners requested a delay or cancellation of the transportation referendum. The Commissioner will only decide matters in actual controversy and will not render a decision on a state of facts which no longer exist or which subsequent events have laid to rest (Appeal of C.A., Sr., 45 Ed Dept Rep 388, Decision No. 15,360; Appeal of the New York Charter Schools Assn., Inc., et al., 45 id. 376, Decision No. 15,355; Appeal of the Bd. of Trustees of the N. Merrick Public Library, et al., 45 id. 363, Decision No. 15,350). Petitioners’ stay request was denied and the vote took place on May 15, 2007, leaving no possibility of any meaningful relief.
A school district must provide transportation for all children attending grades kindergarten through eight who live between 2 and 15 miles from school and for all children attending grades 9 through 12 who live between 3 and 15 miles from school, the distances in each case being measured by the nearest available route from home to school (Education Law §3635[1][a]; Appeal of Trader, 43 Ed Dept Rep 191, Decision No. 14,967; Appeal of Wenger, 37 id. 5, Decision No. 13,790). Transportation for a lesser or greater distance than that set forth in statute may only be provided upon approval by the voters of the district (Education Law §3635[1][a]; Appeal of Trader, 43 Ed Dept Rep 191, Decision No. 14,967; Appeal of Mogel, 41 id. 127, Decision No. 14,636). If such transportation is provided, it must be offered equally to all students in like circumstances residing in the district (Education Law §3635[1][a]; Appeal of Trader, 43 Ed Dept Rep 191, Decision No. 14,967; Appeal of Mogel, 41 id. 127, Decision No. 14,636).
While Education Law §3635(1) requires respondent to provide transportation for children in grades kindergarten and above, it does not require or authorize respondent to provide transportation for children attending pre-kindergarten. Absent statutory or regulatory authority, such as transportation for the “universal pre-k” program (see Education Law §3602-e; 8 NYCRR §151-1.2[a]), a board of education's authority to provide transportation is restricted to the limitations set forth in Education Law §3635 (Appeal of Neubauer, 32 Ed Dept Rep 320, Decision No. 12,841).
Education Law §3635(1)(e) authorizes, but does not require, a board of education, at its discretion, to provide transportation under specified circumstances to any child attending grades kindergarten through eight between the school such child legally attends and child care locations, including daycare centers. However, the statute does not provide a board of education with authority, even discretionary, to provide transportation to a child of less than school age, except in the limited circumstances where such child is accompanying a parent who is under 21 years of age to and from such parent's school (see Education Law §3635[1][f]; Appeal of a Preschool Child with a Disability, 43 Ed Dept Rep 343, Decision No. 15,012). Accordingly, pursuant to Education Law §3635, respondent has no authority to use district resources to provide pre-k transportation.
As to the change in the district’s mileage policy, I note that the record indicates that respondent’s district is operating under a contingency budget. Education Law §2023(2), governing contingency budgets, provides in pertinent part:
Notwithstanding the defeat of a school budget, school districts shall continue to transport students to and from the regular school program in accordance with the mileage limitations previously adopted by the qualified voters of the school district. Such mileage limits shall change only when amended by a special proposition passed by a majority of the qualified voters of the school district.
Although a district may continue under a contingency budget to transport students pursuant to an existing policy, the mileage limitations must have been previously adopted by the qualified voters of the school district (Education Law §2023; Appeal of Powell, 46 Ed Dept Rep ___, Decision No. 15,597; Appeal of Wenger, 37 id. 5, Decision No. 13,790). Therefore, pursuant to Education Law §§3635(1)(a) and 2023(2), in order to change the district’s transportation mileage policy, respondent board exercised its authority to submit the matter to the voters for their approval.
On May 15, 2007 district voters specifically authorized a change in the district’s transportation mileage policy, which is therefore unaffected by my findings relating to pre-k transportation.
In light of this disposition, I need not address the parties’ remaining contentions. Nothing in this decision shall be construed to limit respondent’s authority to provide transportation for children participating in its universal pre-k program pursuant to Education Law §3602-e.
THE APPEAL IS SUSTAINED TO THE EXTENT INDICATED.
IT IS ORDERED that respondent henceforth fully comply with Education Law §3635 and approve transportation policies in strict compliance with the statutory requirements.
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that, with respect to matters that were authorized pursuant to the May 15, 2007 school district vote, respondent refrain from using district resources to transport pre-k children, in accordance with the terms of this decision.
END OF FILE
I guess we should just cut out all pre-k busing if it cost so much.
4:44 PM: The universal pre-k program is separate and not subject to the commissioner's ruling.
The board does not listen to its counsel and decides to do whatever they want, and use district resources (OUR TAX MONIES) to appeal a decision that will not be overturned.
What a shame. And a waste.
I guess we should just cut out all pre-k busing if it cost so much.
Yea, I'm sure you would...hmmmm, if only the public Pre-K wasn't paid for by a state grant. Don't worry; I am sure that your "private" school board will be happy to not apply for that grant next year just to retaliate for their getting caught during illegal implementation of the Private Pre-K busing and the ensuing fiasco.
4:43
thank you for typing all that out.
Trustee Kopilow read the transcript of Friday's court proceedings during the board meeting. Apparently the judge did say there was no probability of success for the Board. . . why would they pursue this?
Orthomom...please help here...The private school community has grown much larger than it was 10 years ago. We honestly from the heart welcome you. We are not racist...or prejudice...or seek to hurt you pre school children...but I do feel both sides are frustrated, bitter and upset about one another. This is an extremely welcoming town...for many years people have come, raised children successfully and watched them grow all from this School System..Im sure deep down inside Orthomom you know what this these small towns have produced as far as education is. How do we make an Honest attempt to understand your community. I do not want to sound like a child speaking, but there are Generations of us here for many many years...we built these schools up to what they are today...we would be more than happy to work with your community, but how are we suppose to feel when your community is not open to it?..our class sizes are about to increase...schools are being sold and torn down and the existing ones are being neglected...really...How would you feel?..please try to convince your community to be a bit for open,,,especially THE BOARD MEMBERS....I understand there can be some loud mouths, but its only because we are worried and concerned about whats happening...Please, send them an Anonymous letter and ask them to be a bit warmer and spend some money on this district...I BET YOU WOULD BE REALLY SURPRISED on how the Public end of this community would respond:)
I'd be very suprised after attending a scholl board meeting where parents simply yelled to obstruct the proceeding. Presedent Bush has security to escort those who interupt out. Imagine what would happen if there was security at a board meeting. One lady interupted the meeting because she didn't know what the BOCES board was and why votes were being cast for a new member of the BOCES board. So proceeding should stop! She doesn't know....everything should stop.
The bottom line is that you may have been here for many years but there is many things wrong with the school system. Teachers are unaccountable and scores are misreable, its not the glorious system it was, however that hasn't stopped the budget from ballooning to $93 MILLION - despite the fact that enrollment is down to less than 3500 students. So education is misreable and fiscall responsibility was thrown out the window.
Ten years ago I was paying less than $4,000 in school taxes today I am paying $8,000 for less poor scores and a smaller student body. When and where does it start getting better - when will scores improve? The teachers got thier contract - scores haven't improved. Why should we just continue to throw money at a problem that isn't getting fixed?
Trustee Kopilow also wanted to know why phone service people were being changed. This after thier system filed and the state declared the phone system an emergency - he asked why change providers. Duh cause they failed - or maybe he knows someone there.
Bottom line trustee Kapolow is only concerned with status quo, hey judge said so - it must be. Don't take into account that there are currently three school districts that provide this service to private school, don't take into account that this service was provided from 2000-2003 in this district. Seems that there is plenty of precedent for another judge to disagree.
But kaplow will let the board use funds to fight specil ed services to the needy - that he is willing to spend $$$$ for lawyers. Seems kapolow needs to re-examine his objections they contridict him at every turn.
Why was it okay to fight special ed services for half a million dallors only to loose and pay for it anyway - but not fight this proposition that passed in a democratic fashion?
to 7:36.....Yes, your correct in saying that the proposition passed in a Democratic Fashion, BUT ITS ILLEGAL PER THE STATE OF NEW YORK LAWS FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS....why is there such a desire to run the school board?....why is there such a desire to let it Fall Apart? How come Private school board members havent offered to sit with us and discuss on a more Down To Earth level these issues that are now plaguing ALL school children..If only the children understood...they would probably be Yelling at us...:)
The special ed services were determined by the CSE committee, not the bd. members.
For if and when a bd member decides on IEP's for special ed services, the LAW of NY state and federal mandates have not been followed.
Oh wait that did happen last spring with 6 students being placed at a private school.
I should not know this information, and neither should anyone else except the parents and the school district. The bd. was totally wrong for even saying 6 wanted in to the private school, and one wanted out.
Special ed services are just that a service-
not a placement. A service not a placement.
If a parent choices a private school so be it, if Lawrence did not have a program for the special ed student, different story.
To ask or tell the district to pay part or all the tuition to private school, based on religion, sorry not legal.
Jump up and down all you want, not legal.
There are laws that govern special ed services.
I also could not understand why- spend so much money fighting the placement, so, I became a CPSE, then a CSE parent, trained with nassau county, learned the laws and now understand why certain things are done one way compared to another.
Do I always agree, no. The law is the law.
I have fought both the system and other parents over services. Some refusing the services, others demanding services their child is just not entitled too.
I want a $3 million dollar loan, I can only get $2 million, no matter how I stand on my head, it is not going to happen. The same can be said for special ed. There are rules and laws that must be followed.
Now I feel that many will be upset, but are all the district special ed parents who attend the private special ed school, now going to ask the bd. for their tuition too? Please remember that gifted students are covered under special ed services too, so can the really gifted middle school student get to go to the gifted high school in the bronx or manhattan? nope. it's further than 15 miles. The bd. really opened some can of worms with their decision last spring.
8:40 PM
How come its not "illegal to the three districts in Nassau that currently bus private school pre-k. Why wasn't illegal in 2000-2003 when it was provided. How do you make the argument that "universal pre-k" is elligable for bussing, but no other children in the same grade of the same age are copnsidered "school age" children?
How come its not "illegal to the three districts in Nassau that currently bus private school pre-k. Why wasn't illegal in 2000-2003 when it was provided. How do you make the argument that "universal pre-k" is elligable for bussing, but no other children in the same grade of the same age are copnsidered "school age" children?
It is illegal in the 3 districts if public monies are funding Private Pre-K busing, they just aren’t aware of it apparently.
As for the Universal Pre-K argument as you put it, simply stated in the law is that Universal Pre-K, which is funded by the state (for in need children), can utilize a portion of that grant for busing children. This is written into the law, while there is no provision for the usage of public funds for Private Pre-K services and it is specifically written in that busing of pre-school age children is illegal. So the Universal Pre-K is the only exception to the law. When my child went to pre-k several years ago, I needed to pay for the service as well as shuttle my child to and from myself or in some cases I would carpool with other parents. There was no free busing when I was dealing with it and I am irritated at the sense of entitlement by anyone.
"It is illegal in the 3 districts if public monies are funding Private Pre-K busing, they just aren’t aware of it apparently."
Why can't people see this obvious point? Pointing out that someone else is doing it doesn't set a "precedent" as some here like to claim. They haven't been caught yet, that's all. Unless someone complains or there is an audit how is the state to know?
Telling the judge that your brother in law also beats his wife doesn't keep you out of jail.
School districts, fire districts, villages, towns, villages and their officials are discovered breaking various laws and regulations regularly, either through audits, investigations or complaints. Sometimes these discoveries have lead to criminal charges, sometimes they are just told to stop. Never does the state say "oh, since you did it I guess we'll let everyone else do it."
10:40 PM: With all respect, there is a bit of an inaccuracy in what you said about universal pre-k.
There is specific guidelines for universal pre-k and bussing can be used for those children in public schools that have NO NEEDS.
As for 6:58 AM's comments, the brother in law should go to jail ANYWAY, whether it saves the complainant's neck or not.
7:13
KEY WORD---PUBLIC SCHOOL.
KEY WORD---PUBLIC SCHOOL.
KEY WORD---PUBLIC SCHOOL.
LAWS THAT GOVERN THE STATE.
Mandates from the federal government.
Why not ask the private schools
why they don't follow the guidelines, then the private schools would be covered for even more,entitlements-legally.
I find it pretty sad that most of the private schools don't follow the mandates, thus, missing out on
funds they would be entitled too.
Then again, the private schools set the tone-their way or the highway. Don't like it-leave.
To all those who criticize the public school system, especially 7:28, 7:35 and 10:15:
You may wish to file a lawsuit against your English teachers for not teaching you proper grammar and spelling. Alternatively, you may wish to sue your parents for not quizzing you before a spelling or grammar test. Instead, perhaps you should sue yourselves for not listening in class. Your spelling and syntax are abysmal! Whether you were publicly or privately schooled, you should ask for your money back. Before you criticize what you characterize to be failed teaching in LPS, you should examine your own backyard. Really, people...is it too much to ask that you check your spelling and syntax before posting? Just because you are "Anonymous" doesn't excuse the lame language usage. Would you send a letter to the editor of a newspaper without checking for typos or poor grammar? Come on...take the extra minute to preview your response before publishing. Otherwise, it detracts from what you are trying to criticize in the first place.
Now, back to our regular vitriol...
Thanx to mi yeshiva edumcation...
10:40 PM
Left out the fact that in 200-2003 it was provided - no lawsuits were files, untill the budget didn't pass then in a very obvious retalitation action the board of 2003-2004 decided to cut it.
So now what....it is obvious that bussing is a concern to private school parents and antagonizing them this way will only fan the flames.
my, oh my, antagonizing the private school parents.
"The budget didn't pass then in a very obvious retalitation action the bd 03-04 decided to cut it."
Can you please- please-please-
read the LAWS that govern N.Y. State Education already!!!
Some laws have not been updated since 2002,2004, some are from 2006, some new in 2007. When a budget fails, perks MUST go.
Over 90% of "all" school budgets are mandated by the govenment. Yes mandated.
The bd. didn't stop pre-k busing for retalitation reasons-even though in your heart of hearts-you believe this.
Laws govern- when a budget fails, everything must stop-
no repairs,nothing new,etc.
The lawsuit, that stopped the pre-K bussing, was brought about by other parents with pre-K students in the district!!!
Many residents went to the voting polls and voted yes to pre-K bussing for all district residents,
to be told AFTER the vote, oh no, it is only for SOME pre-K students.
GET over it already.
Blame the school district's attorney's or the school bd. for pushing this through.
Many parents(public & private) told the bd. and the district lawyers this would not be legal, deaf ears.
Why didn't the commissoner stop the vote-- it could have been voted down.
Laws govern- when a budget fails, everything must stop-
no repairs,nothing new,etc.
But we are no longer operating under austerity. So that's not an issue here.
That's correct - the bussing was stopped because of austerity, and nobody questioned the previous ruling - that it was an illegal act. So now that it was questioned, the district was wrong during 2002-2003 too.
So live with a district that makes mistakes all the time, right? Those lousy lawyers were brought back on board again.
12:12 PM
Agreed the lawyers are bad, why can't the board get rid of them.
3:37
"why can't the bd. get rid of them?
the old bd. did.
the new bd. REHIRED them!
4:30 PM: Yes, that is correct. But that was only because the lawyers in between made a whole bunch of errors. So now, we take back the lawyers who made less errors, but still BIG ONES????
Another RFP needs to go out. The lawyers we have now did not answer and RFP, but were just rehired (without one).
The board needs to work on this -- oh wait -- the board may like them! They may be their puppets.
11:28
the point was a parent felt that the school bd. back in 03-04 ended pre-K bussing in retalitation for a failed budget.
The bussing was taken away because the budget failed- the law tells district what can and cannot be when a budget fails.
Pre-K bussing was a perk. No perks with a failed budget.
OK, now today, no failed budget.
NO MONEY to repair the schools.
Say what??
oh there is $29.2 million, or is it $30 million now with interest?
anyway, a public vote needs to take place to use a dime, a dime- of the money for ANY repairs.
Our Lawrence school bd. members could have put some of the money into a capital reserve fund, but they didn't. A vote costs about $30,000 to have.
The bd. asked the public for pre-K
bussing- it was voted yes. Many residents came to find out after the vote that not all pre-K students would get bussing, only a few schools.
Well that's not what the proposal stated at the time of the vote.
The law is pretty clear on many items, and others we will see.
The school bd. cannot tell the state we are in such disrepair, with almost $30 million in the bank, seeing if two more schools can be closed, and paying for pre-K bussing for only some in the district, when not a dime has been spent in 5 years to repair the public schools.
The budget is the Public Schools of Lawrence-not the area of Lawrence. Speak with your private school bd. members and ask them why the schools are not following the mandates, for if and when they do, the private schools would be entitled to alot more money from the state and the federal government, not from the public school's budget.
8:36 AM: The bussing issue comes down to 2nd paragraph, page 4: pre-k bussing to private schools are NOT ALLOWED. Period. The universal pre-k program receives bussing under a separated education law. If it happened in 2003-2003, which I can't say I know about, then it was illegal, unless the state grant for low-income children was used at that time.
Entitlements to private schools through state and federal mandates has to be administered by the Lawrence Public School district. They will assist in filing and administering the funds. This is where the public and private schools have to get together. On the flip side, the private schools will open themselves up to scrunity and has to be transparent as to their finances. This is apparently what private school parents have been asking for, for a long time -transparency in the finances of those schools.
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