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Saturday, July 02, 2005

Alarming

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone who opposed the gay parade in Jerusalem could think that critically stabbing a marcher is the solution. I'm sure the stabber considers himself a modern-day Pinchas, who stabbed and killed Zimri for publicly having intercourse with a Midianite woman. Though Pinchas is praised as a zealot, Rambam and R' Chisda both tell us that had Pinchas asked for halachic advice, he would have been told not to kill Zimri. Furthermore, Rabbah bar Channah says that had Zimri stopped sinning even for a moment, and Pinchas killed him then, Pinchas would have been brought to bait din, and possibly even given the death penalty. Clearly, according to these opinions, simply marching in the parade would not qualify someone to be stabbed by a zealot, even one who considers himself to be following in the footsteps of Pinchas. I hope to see condemnations of the stabbing from the same Rabbis who roundly condemned the parade. I'm not holding my breath.

53 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love it when a Mom talks torah. That being said, I wonder if a Rav would find gay sex worthy of being killed for. I'm not sure it wouldn't.

11:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I wonder if a Rav would find gay sex worthy of being killed for. I'm not sure it wouldn't."

Are you kidding me?

11:50 PM  
Blogger Jack's Shack said...

Sick, sick, sick individuals. There is no excuse for this behavior. What this fool did is no different to me than the people who turn themselves into human bombs.

1:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is upsetting. With a climate like this producing zealots like this, I wonder if we're in for another Baruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir.

10:36 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

God forbid.

10:55 AM  
Blogger GoldaLeah said...

Isn't Pinchas the one who was reincarnted into Elijah? Not much of a punishment, eh?

6:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the gay parade is sick and I think it is sick that they have to impose upon us what they do (or should be doing) in their own bedrooms. I've yet to see a "Straight Parade".
Until the time comes when you publicly decry these shameful shows you obviously don't feel the same upsetness this man feels.

10:01 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

there is a difrence between publicly decrying and killing. to kill soils you're soul in such a way there is no way to fix it but you're own death. (even those who executed the death sentence where put to death by the hands of heaven!)

10:09 PM  
Blogger ba said...

hey ortho!while not to condone this violent act why don't you look at the big picture and condemm the rally?If you want to quote chumash what about vlo sakie haaretz e.y. cannot tolerate people who do avieros.while the stabbing is unjustified the rally of sickoes and dieviants are just as bad.But you like to be progressive

12:09 AM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

The gay pride rally - people walking down the street holding signs - is as bad as stabbing another human being?!! I can't emphasize how horrible it is that you said that, Ba!

And anonymous - And the people in the gay pride rally aren't imposing themselves on anyone. If you don't want to see it, then don't go there that day (assuming you're in Jerusalem). And the marchers don't engage in sex right in the street - they're not doing there what they'd be doing in their bedrooms. They're marching!

You're also justifying the violent acts of this man - by saying that Orthomom doesn't feel the same "upsetness" of this man. Lots of things upset me - and I don't go out and stab people and try to kill them! Let your ears hear what your mouth is saying - you're trying to justify attempted murder!

11:16 AM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

the mai hasholach writes that though G-d was thrilled with pichus's act of vengence on HIS behalf,nevertheless pinchus was wrong,therefore the torah refers to him as the nar(childish one)and only the zealotry is celebrated not the actual murder(tachas asher "kenay lay lo'kov",vei'yicaper al benei yisroel).

11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Get a copy of the dvd "trembling before Gd".There is footage from aprevious gay pride parade.This parade was so full of hate for Torah and Judaism that it even disgusted the frum lesbian who witnessed it.

12:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

frum lesbian an oxymoron

2:09 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

Anonymous,
why is a moomer le'dover echad no longer considered frum? and since when is a lesbian sex a sin?but being an am haertz that is the real issue.

2:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The gay pride rally - people walking down the street holding signs - is as bad as stabbing another human being?!! I can't emphasize how horrible it is that you said that, Ba rebecca you are taking me out of context all i am saying is that in anyplace especially jerusalem having such an event is terrible i don't see anybody commenting that this is a terrible thing.these people should repent do teshuva.But you guys want to be chic and condemm one person acting out of line as opposed to thousands.Ba

2:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thank you amshi just because you are a boor with a one track mind you don't have to defend deviants ba

2:18 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

amshi stick to dirty madeup stories about the bobover rebbe and liberache

2:20 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

amshi look in the rambam you am haretz and look in the chumash in bechukosi about ovrei avreirah in eretz yisroel provided your perverted mind can understand chumash

2:24 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

yes i'm familiar with the rambam in
הלכות עבודה זרה וחוקות הגויים
but 1 that does not make her a moomer lechol hatorah even if she commits the act and noone agrees with that psak,because of tosafos in kesubos "ester karka olam"

2:36 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

why is a moomer le'dover echad no longer considered frum because you can't willingly live such a lifestyle and consider that frum.but then again a jerk like you Amshi can be mevaze talmedai chachomim and defend lifestyles which the torah scorns so pick and chose what you want

2:38 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

the defention of a moomer le'dovor echad is frum minus(so long as you are not subtracting shabus,tefflin or kashrus).your lifestyle can be of any caliber and we must still count you as frum. as far as me being mevaze talmida chachumim,never i deny ever commiting said offense

2:44 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

BTW even the rambam felt that that the punishment for lesbianism is neither biblical nor rabbinic.Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:4
the shita that it is deorysa is from a conservative rabbi Baruch Levine, in the Jewish Publication Society commentary to Leviticus, boldly assures the reader that "in due course, rabbinic interpretation added this prohibition [of lesbianism] as well [to homosexuality in this verse]."The JPS Torah Commentary: Leviticus (Philadelphia: JPS, 1989), p. 123 Bavli Yevamot classifies lesbianism as prizut
ther is a midrash in Sifra Aharei Mot 8:9 we mocks it,without issur
further proof R. Huna said: women who are mesolelot with one another are disqualifiedfrom marrying a priest. And even according to R. Eleazar, who stated that an unmarried man who cohabited with an unmarried woman with no matrimonial intention renders her a harlot (zonah ), this applies to a man; but when it is a woman, it is merely obscenity (pritzuta). This debate also appears in Yerushalmi Gittin 8:8, which assigns the two opinions to the Houses of Hillel and Shammai, a tradition unknown to the Bavli. The Yerushalmi uses the verb mesoledot; this is assumed by the commentator P'nei Moshe as well as by Ben-Yehudah to be equivalent to mesolelot"women who practise lewdness with one another."
the rambam Issurei Bi'ah 21:8 is your claim to fame.the bais yosef and tur quote him Even ha-Ezer 20:2.

3:00 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

Ba, you seem to be willfully missing the point. The "one person" you point out STABBED THREE PEOPLE, one of them quite seriously. The thousands of other people were merely walking down the street. How does one compare to the other? If you think that gay sex is so awful (you seem unable to imagine that there are gay people who can live a frum Jewish lifestyle, so I'll stick to sex here), then why not try to pass laws? Instead of taking the law into one's own hands and attacking innocent people?

5:39 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

If you think that gay sex is so awful (you seem unable to imagine that there are gay people who can live a frum Jewish lifestyle, no gay people are not living a frum lifestyle and your condoning such a lifestyle is wrong

8:42 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

amshi the shulchan aruch my claim to fame says lesbian action is kmaseh eretz mitzrayim no big deal!

8:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

rebecca: stop trying to make the parades sound so innocent. In America a superstore (Walmart) can have a magazine banned for unseemly covers. Why should the people of yerushalayim have to put up with the disgusting displays of the gay parade. and you know very well - and if you don't, consider yourself informed - that a gay parade DOES NOT consist of people holding up signs.

When I said they should keep it confined to their bedrooms I meant that people don't NEED to know what the next persons sexual preference is. Keep it to yourself. Don't make me explain to my five year old what a gay parade is when he/she doesn't even know about the birds and the bees.

12:30 AM  
Blogger Cosmic X said...

Right on, Orthomom!

I wrote something very similar here.

9:02 AM  
Anonymous ba said...

Anonymous said...
good post ,but we live in 2005,and we have a responsibilty to expose our kids to evrey heinous and sick lifestyle because you have to be tolerant.that is of evreyone but people who dislike imorality

1:06 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

BA-
i have much disdain for your spelling/am ha'ratzus,but none the less i count you in a minyan.

1:33 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

amshi what would r'chaim milokofsky say about these gay sickoes?

1:35 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

amshi stop trying to find gray areas to justify masseh eretz mitzrayim.momer lhachis issues also apply to gay sickoes

1:38 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

r'chaim milokofsky?who is that?and again masseh mitzrayim is not going to preclude a woman from the torah camp

2:13 PM  
Anonymous Uncle Moishy said...

To BA and others:

There are gays in your shul.
There are gays in your yeshivah.
There are gays in your family.

Some you may know about.
Others you certainly don't know about. If I were gay and aware of the way you think, I certainly wouldn't rush to clue you in about it.

Current medical opinion is that sexual preference is something you are born with. It is not a matter of choice, although it is, I suppose, possible lich'vosh a gay yai-tzer.

You might as well call left-handed people sickos too. In fact, once upon a time society tried very hard to force lefties to become righties. Beyond the well-known references that even an am ha'aretz like myself can quote (e.g., Ya'akov switching hands when blessing Ephraim and Menashe), I suspect that there are any number of halachic sources and commentators that inveigh against left-handedness in fairly severe tones. Yet we've arrived at a time when we all (I hope all?) understand that left-handedness is something you're born with.

Perhaps someday we'll achieve an equal measure of tolerance for the sexually "left-handed" as well.

In the meantime, why not rent "Trembling Before G-D" to see the pain of people who were born and raised frum and who struggle on a daily basis -- some lich'vosh et hayaitzer, others to try to find room inside a frum tent that wants no part of them. It is really quite poignant.

5:57 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

r'chaim milokofsky he is the father of the amshinover rebbe in bayit vegan

8:03 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

meantime, why not rent "Trembling Before G-D" to see the pain of people who were born and raised frum and who struggle on a daily basis -- some lich'vosh et hayaitzer, others to try to find room inside a frum tent that wants no part of them. It is really quite poignant.

stop trying to make excuses.while these people are unfourtunate they should be encouraged to do teshuva.uncle moishy you are lucy you are not a bar of soap,being lefthanded is not a korace being a fagele is.

8:14 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

Ba, do you even read the arguments of other people? Or are you so justified in your own mind that you don't think you have to listen to other people? Regardless of what the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam have to say about lesbian sex, or what the Torah says about gay male sex, NO ONE has the right to take the law into his own hands and try to kill three people. The man who did this is being charged with three counts of attempted murder. Are you saying that this is justified? That it was a correct action? That he shouldn't be convicted for his acts?

If so, this is the same kind of thinking that led to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin (and the same kind of threats are now being made against the current Israeli Prime Minister).

9:23 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

Are you saying that this is justified? That it was a correct action? no not at all!i do not condone violence.all i am saying is to stop getting all hot under the collar when i say it is a shame a bunch of faygalach are parading around the holy city

11:29 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

i agree that they were michallel shame shmayim in yerushliam and that being gay is nothing to be proud of.but me point was simply 1 can be lesbian and frum,even gay(though the latter is attached to biblical issurim)just like i speak loshan hora and don't always pay sales tax in boro park but count in a minyan.

10:15 AM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

BTW ba,
his name was Milikowski

11:54 AM  
Blogger Soferet said...

BS"D
Well said, Momof4! Me & the Hubby send you kol hakavod!

1:09 PM  
Anonymous Heshys house said...

The religious hero who stabbed the 3 evil gays saved G-ds wrath from coming down on our holy city of Yerushalayim.If not for his heric action the city of Yerushalayim would be on its way to the Arabs.G-d takes away parts of Israel from us so that there is less land thats being poluted by the atheist,homosexuals and Sabbath violators.I envy this mans share in the afterlife.You can read more on this issue on my new blog.Heshys house.blogspot.com

1:26 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

you realize mum that the above comment is the blog equivlent to a CVA.

1:40 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

amshi the same way boruch goldstein ymsh and yigal amir did not bring klal yisroel any glory so to this guy.
rebecca you are being naive if you watch a diry movie it's because of plot?you should be beside yourself that in the holy city faigelach are parading around, heshi is way off

4:58 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

boruch goldstein ymsh?are you heshy?

6:10 PM  
Anonymous ba said...

no i am not heshy boruch goldstein did not act within the parameters of halacha he is a rasha and a killer.he put innocent people in danger.i tolerate him as much as a faigeleh who clothes himself in baseless halacha

8:20 PM  
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Anonymous payday loans online said...

If you are gay, dont parade yourself, just sit home and do what you do. But dont show it on public

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