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Friday, August 19, 2005

I Couldn't Let This Sit

In my last post, I wrote a bit about the pain I am feeling for the Israeli soldiers that are evacuating the remaining settlers. I got a few comments on that post that either implied, or said straight out, that the soldiers should be disobeying their orders to evacuate Jewish settlers from their homes. Here's one comment that claims the soldiers are behaving badly:
The soldiers that came into people's houses and through them out deserve everything coming at them...You want a solider? Today in Kfar Darom, a soldier broke down and told his officer that he couldn't drag people out of a shul. The soldier (who saved his soul) was grabbed by 6 policemen and dragged away and arrested.
And the worst offender in the post's comments:
but i can't stop thinking what would happen if the army took B.Bs lead and just walk away or refuse to carry out the orders, are you going to court marshal a whole country??[sic]
I though this was worth a response.
First of all, these soldiers are doing a beautiful job. Any and all footage that has aired has shown these soldiers to be executing their orders in the most sensitive possible manner.
Second of all, to those who have expectations that these soldiers should be rejecting and refusing their orders - you couldn't be more wrong. Agree with the evacuation orders or not, without the military chain of command intact, the military ceases to become effective.
"It's not an issue of religion," reserve Maj. Gen. Yakov Amidror said. "If we accept the right of an enlisted individual to choose his missions as he sees fit … the entire system will fall apart."
Without a working military, these very settlers, many in the West Bank, that are calling on soldiers to disobey orders risk giving up the very military protection that allows them to survive repeated terrorism attempts by their Palestinian neighbors. And that is a very dangerous game to play.


Blogger respondingtojblogs said...


Pay no attention to these fanatics. They would rather tear the whole country apart. My biggest concern is the day after the disengagement. The touching pictures of soldiers and settlers embracing and crying together show the possibility of a stronger tie between the settlers and the rest of Israel. Maniacs like the acid throwers would create a permanent rift that would weaken the country beyond repair. I suspect that many of these nihilistic fanatics are mostly professional agitators. Most settlements showed the poignancy of the situation without harming their fellow citizens.

Also, why is it always Israel that steps up to the plate when it comes to difficult choices and mediating the wide range of opinion among her citizens. I don't see the PA going house to house to remove weapons from militants.

9:27 AM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...


firstly i never argued that the army is doing a bad job, i think the way they are handling the situation under the circumstances is good. But put yourself in thier boots would you drag people out of shul??? or would say sorry cant do it. my uncle served in ww2 as a gunner in a plane he won purple hearts and all sorts of medals and saved his crew many times with his bravery only to have his commanding officer call him a dirty jew. he then opted to knock him out. my uncle was removed from the army after all he did for this country.
this is not exactly the same but as people we have choices and what seems to be the wrong thing to do is really the right thing. i honestly dont believe that by refusing the evacuation orders means that all of a sudden the borders become unsafe. again this was only a thought there is a reason i am not the pm of israel.
side point- by giving gaza to the arabs is he admitting he made a mistake in '67. whatever happened to the sharon of old i guess politics destroys the best of people no matter who they are.

9:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To rebba shlita: There was no mistake in 1967, when Gaza and Sinai were captured from Egypt. But yes, it turns out to have been a mistake to settle Gaza in the 38 years since then. That is exactly what Sharon is conceding -- and what most Jews already decided by not moving there (more than 200K settlers in the West Bank; less than 10K in Gaza).

Here's exactly what Sharon is saying:

10:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's amazing is how the tremendous sensitivity, compassion and restraint exhibited by the soldiers is looked at as weakness by the Palestinians - "Why don't they just rip 'em all outta there?"

10:31 AM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...

thank you uncle moishy- but now there is a larger questions what did this acomplish. the palastinian PM was quoted a few weeks ago "we wont stop until we are knocking on Jerusalems doors" you give an inch they take a yard. i dont think anyone in their right mind thinks this is it. the gemara says we do not pay a ransom to a "pirate" or kidnapper because they will continue to do it. sharon has just set a very dangeruos precedent that i hope does not make the situatation worse. bottom line the seforim do not speak kindly of those who give away land israel...

10:47 AM  
Blogger respondingtojblogs said...

Rebba Shlita-

Even an am ha'aretz like me knows that you are twisting the words of the Gemara- it says that you do not pay an extraordinarily high ransom. So it's a matter of degrees, not as black and white as you would like.

10:50 AM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...


you are right anyone with a southpark picture must be an am ha'aretz.

11:10 AM  
Blogger respondingtojblogs said...

Rebba Shlita-

Can you spell ad hominem? Sure you can! In fact that seems to be you MO.

11:25 AM  
Blogger respondingtojblogs said...

Rebba Shlita-
Maybe your magic learning powers can explain this.

11:45 AM  
Blogger respondingtojblogs said...

It seems e-daf has gotten jealous over their images. Feel free to visit their site and look up Gittin 45a. I anxiously await your other-worldly explanation of a simple gemara.

11:48 AM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...


fistly what is ad hominem??? am i reading it wrong.
secondly the gemara is simple it is a machlokes & one side is like what i said. also it is a machlokes haposkim, so i am not sure what you are getting at. you sound like a very educated person so i know you are not misunderstaning the gemara. so i am not quite sure what you are getting at.
also you do realize the am haaretz and southpark thing was a joke.

3:03 PM  
Blogger respondingtojblogs said...

Rebba Shlita-

I may have been quick to take offense, but I think your positions are indefensible and that you misunderstood the makhlokis. Either way, I hope you have a good shabbos.

P.S. Ad Hominem.

5:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ortho what did you think of the picture of the kids leaving their school with stars and their hands up?I think the adults who put them up to it are iresponsible

2:28 AM  
Blogger Ze'ev said...

Much has been made in the Israeli press of how professionally Israel's police and military have carried out the expulsion of Jews from their homes. I find this to be problematic for two reasons:

1) Why is it considered a big deal when the police and military carry out the task assigned to them? Were we to expect that the police would go into the homes of the Jews that they were about to expel with clubs swinging? True, expelling Jews from their homes is a mission more difficult than ordinary, but with the months of training that those involved in the expulsion plan received, nothing short of robotic, mechanical observance to their orders should have been expected.

2) As I see it, the expulsion of a Jew from his home in the Land of Israel at the hands of Jewish security forces is something that regardless of how professionally and efficiently it has been done is not something that merits praise. Expelling a Jew from his home by the 1st Jewish army and police force in 2,000 years is not something that can be done nicely and engender feelings of goodwill and praise. It just doesn't work that way.

I am sure that Prime Minister Sharon, along with the powers that be in the military and police powerbase will reward their loyal troops well for carrying out a job well done, but when we will look back at this dark chapter of Jewish history in the generations to come, I don't foresee much praise being passed around to the expulsion forces, regardless of how professional they may have been in "following orders".

3:52 AM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

Ze'ev, do you really think that it was tenable for Israel to keep on occupying Gaza? How could it be tenable for 8,000 Jews to live among 1.5 million Palestinians? I think the only way that Israel has a hope of remaining a Jewish and a democratic state is by divesting itself of the occupied territories (and I include in this most of the West Bank as well). (And I want Israel to remain a democratic state in which Arabs and Jews both have a voice in the government).

Given my presuppositions, I think it is nothing short of miraculous that the Israeli police and army have done such a good job thus far. I am very impressed by their training, which enables them to withstand such verbal and sometimes physical abuse without retaliating in kind. I have had some experience going to left wing demonstrations in Israel (some together with Arab-Israelis) and I can assure you that the police don't show such restraint when they don't feel the need to do so.

1:49 PM  
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3:36 AM  

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