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Tuesday, September 20, 2005

Some Words to the Wise for My Childrens' Teachers and Administrators

If you tell a child, on the first day of school, after a long summer vacation, that no other student in your 28 years of teaching has ever had such a rough start, you aren't giving that child much incentive to improve.

If you stand idly by, within earshot, while a catty 8-year-old princess tells my daughter that her uniform shirt is not "the cool brand", you are contributing to one child's low self-esteem, and another's disgusting habit of putting down everyone who isn't up to her standards.

If you create a system where older students are appointed bus monitors, and some of the students that they boss around and mistreat are just 6 months younger and 6 inches taller than said bus monitors, you are probably asking for trouble. Or a replay of "Lord of the Flies".

If you tell a young child that if he continues to struggle, he might have to be "left back", in front of the whole class, maybe it's time to pick another profession.

If you play favorites with any student, even if it happens to be my child, you're setting her up for resentment from her peers. Don't do it.

If you withhold favor from a child because his parent wasn't responsible enough to get the right kind of book cover, you are punishing the child for the parent's misdeeds. (Sorry! I missed that on the school supply list! So shoot me!)

If you take a child out of the class she has been together with for 4 years, and switch her to a parallel class with not one of her friends, you are creating a very stressful social situation. I understand that 26 students is too many for one class, but would it kill you to move two students out of the class?

If there is no supervision for the kids during recess while you sit in the teachers lounge and sip your coffee, don't call me to tell me that my son got into a brawl with four of his friends. That's what you're there for. Do I call you when my kids get into a fight at home? I don't think so. Especially not if I was in the shower when it happened. Be there to nip it in the bud. Maybe a missed pass wouldn't have escalated into a pile-up.

There must be a better system of education than to tell my child, who is way ahead of the pack, that "she might be bored for the first month or so while we review what everyone else needs to go over". Give her a book to read, give her extra work, I don't care what you come up with, but don't make her sit and listen to work she is extremely familiar with while her eyes glaze over. Not a great recipe for an enriching educational experience.

Anyone have any others??

71 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOL! Sorry for what you must be going through.

10:28 AM  
Blogger MDmom said...

leave it to some kid in the 5 towns to take the equalizing factor out of the school uniform and figure out a way to create a fashion heirarchy instead...

10:30 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

leave it to some kid in the 5 towns to take the equalizing factor out of the school uniform and figure out a way to create a fashion heirarchy instead...
Tell me about it!

10:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If there is no supervision for the kids during recess while you sit in the teachers lounge and sip your coffee, don't call me to tell me that my son got into a brawl with four of his friends. That's what you're there for"

I think the teacher should still call you!

10:45 AM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

I'm tempted to print this out and post it up in my faculty room, although some of the things don't apply.

10:46 AM  
Anonymous Essie said...

don't make her sit and listen to work she is extremely familiar with while her eyes glaze over. Not a great recipe for an enriching educational experience.


I agree 100%. That is not an excuse.

11:08 AM  
Blogger The Town Crier said...

Uh, earth to Orthomom, the System stinks, in case you didnt notice.

Thats what you get when we create an environment where jewish education becomes something a young JAP needs to do, and not about educating children.

11:13 AM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

om join the pta,
and BTW this is IMHO your freakin best post EVER real raw emotion,ret tzu dem etzem zach!

11:26 AM  
Blogger Rebeljew said...

"If you stand idly by, within earshot, while a catty 8-year-old princess tells my daughter that her uniform shirt is not "the cool brand", you are contributing to one child's low self-esteem"

Uh ... isn't that the reason that they wear uniforms? So that there is only one brand and one type of clothing?

11:51 AM  
Blogger Rebeljew said...

http://rebeljew.blogspot.com/2005/07/new-paradigm-of-chinuch.html

11:57 AM  
Anonymous Sad said...

So much of what you have written is dead on. A comment on the uniform issue.

The uniform is a suggested solution to the following problem: 1. Children constantly need new clothing (physical growth, Fashion Week inspired trends, whatever the motivation). 2. The social environment of a school promotes fashion competition based on fashion sense and financial ability. 3. This leads inevitably to Haves and Have Nots, A List children and the rest.

To solve the problem, Yeshivas have turned to uniforms to be, as one commenter noted, the “the great equalizer.” This is our educators, who we trust with millions in tuition and contributions a year (not to mention our children), placing a Band-Aid on an infected legion, thinking that it will prevent the spreading. It is simply a mask for the problem. As evidenced by Orthomom’s story, children will find ways to differentiate themselves if they want to, they will establish a class system if they want to, and they will, without any hesitation destroy another child if they are not taught otherwise.

The Yeshiva system, with the advice and consent of the parents, took a situation of insensitivity and misplaced priorities in our children and our homes and made it worse by saying that the answer to materialism is materialism of another kind. We are saying “Student A, don’t insult another child’s clothing because your wearing the same thing.” How does that help? What does that do for the child on Friday afternoon, Saturday, Sunday, on Yom Tov, at weddings, in camp? How has the Yeshiva, by using uniforms to solve their problem, educated my child to be a better person?

Alas, as most of Orthomom’s points in her memo to educators, the system of Yeshiva education can undeniably be termed an utter failure. Sure, we raise our children to go on to learn in Yeshivas, go to Seminaries, make babies, learn in kollel and become big gevirim to support all of the mosdos in our community, attend their dinners with our black hats, fancy sheitles, handstiched suits, and Lexus in the parking lot. We even let our daughters clock chesed hours to fulfill their quota (it’s more important for our bochurim to be learning). But tell me, when was the last time your child offered to call a grandparent, offered to help clean up, asked a child over to play knowing that no one else had, offered to give up what they wanted most in order to allow someone else to have what they need.

The blame is on the parents and on the Yeshivas.

(Some may argue that institution other than Yeshivas use uniforms, so why not talk about them. The answer is that most other institution, sports teams, prep schools, catholic schools, military, etc use uniforms as an identifier, a practical accommodation, a uniting factor to build team spirit or institutional affiliation, a sign of achievement or pride. Our motivations are grossly different than theirs.)

12:04 PM  
Anonymous LC said...

I agree 100% - and thank Hashem regularly (OK, just every time I hear stories like these) that we live outside the metro-NY area, and my kids are in a small enough school - with the administration looking towards growth - that there IS a good level of teacher involvement on the playground, in the lunchroom, etc. And enrichment is built into the system for those who will benefit.

And the teacher *tells* me (this was 2nd grade) when there are issues with derech eretz among the boys (i.e., my son's yarmulka became the frisbee), but they are addressing the problem. Her apologies in the meantime, they're working on it. And if she doesn't see once, my son SHOULD tell her.

Anyone want to move out of town? :-)

12:16 PM  
Blogger Just Passing Through said...

Mom, I agree with Amshi (did I just say that??). This was one of your best posts. These are issues I find all too common in our school systems. Teachers and rabbeim that are totally unqualified are holding their posts. On the other hand, I can name some that are friggin unbelievably good too.

If I ever get the time, I've been meaning to write something along the same lines, but geared more to parents who ingnore issues with their children. Parents need to also wake up and realize that it's possible that thei child is not perfect and not ignore action that needs to be taken. It IS possible, you know, that your child is a bully and a mechutzef...sigh. Maybe I'll get to it.

12:21 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

"IMHO"

AMshi, this is the funniest thing you have ever said.

12:21 PM  
Blogger Gil Student said...

Honestly, I have not seen ANY of these issues in my children's schools, and it is not due to my lack of interest. I haven't seen any pettiness, any unreasonableness or any under-enthusiastic teachers. I don't know if my daughter just has good friends, but we haven't seen ANY jappiness.

Just last night, at Parent Orientation, my older son's rebbe was telling us about how important it is to make the kids feel accomplished, so he recommended that if our sons are having trouble with homework/review we should try focusing on only one pasuk a night so he knows it well and feels good about himself. That's the kind of stuff we hear all the time.

Recess is ALWAYS supervised and the rebbes and teachers seem to know exactly what's going on, because we always ask questions about who is playing with whom and they know.

Maybe you should move to Brooklyn.

12:47 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

"Maybe you should move to Brooklyn."

Not only that but the tuition is half-price.

1:20 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

Gil Student said...
Honestly, I have not seen ANY of these issues in my children's schools

Gil i know where you send your daughter to school it is the same place your wife went to and either you know you are full of crap or you really need to blog less.

Maybe you should move to Brooklyn and wait on line at 3am with you to beg the minaHELL to get into a OU MONEY grubbing school.

1:30 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

sorry that should read Maybe you should move to Brooklyn and wait on line at 3am with GIL

1:31 PM  
Blogger Gil Student said...

100% serious. I was talking mostly about my sons' school, but we are also very happy with my daughter's. Her teachers are consistently excellent and her (10 yr old) friends are very sweet girls. On the other hand, we intentionally kept her in the "Boro Park" class because we were concerned that the "Flatbush" class would be jappy (this decision being made when she was four years old).

I got on the line at 7am, but they don't do the line anymore.

1:43 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

we intentionally kept her in the "Boro Park" class because we were concerned that the "Flatbush" class would be jappy?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!
-Reb Gil



you really need to blog less.

1:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

just wait till she gets to high school
the bklyn schools are the worst all around
they helped invent this crap

1:52 PM  
Blogger Gil Student said...

Sorry if reality doesn't fit into your cynical view of the world.

1:52 PM  
Blogger Gil Student said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:52 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

Reb Gil sending your kids to that place and using the logic of "Boro Park" yes but "Flatbush" class would be jappy.puts you in the running against the Shaliach Rabbi Yossi Nemes

http://orthomom.blogspot.com/2005/09/should-emissary-have-evacuated.html

FOR WINNER OF

http://orthomom.blogspot.com/2005/09/parenting-goofs.html

2:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what does IMHO stand for?

3:00 PM  
Blogger MDmom said...

in my honest (or humble) opinion

3:04 PM  
Blogger Shifra said...

Wow, good post bad stuff.
Teachers who belittle or embarress children (esp in front of their peers) have no business being teachers at all.

How is it even possible that kids are unsupervised at recess? That is a MAJOR safety concern.

As for the uniforms- I went to a HS with uniforms and believe me you could still tell who had money and who didn't (guess who didn't).
It's a great idea conceptually (and certainly as a way of precluding any dress code issues) but it's not the great equalizer people want to believe it is.

I'm sorry for your stress- don't let ANY of this go- if you don't get some satifactory responses I'd strongly suggest taking your kids elsewhere (esp your son!)

3:10 PM  
Blogger Ezzie said...

OM - Amazing post. Again.

LC - Agreed, everyone should leave the tri-state area ASAP. Actually, no - many should stay - but OM and those like her should hightail it out. We should escape the clutches of evil smog within a year - and we've been counting down since we moved in.

3:11 PM  
Blogger Ezzie said...

Interesting about the unis... Where I was, the girls had uniforms, the boys not... It was harder for me to tell which boys had money and which not than the girls, who accesorize if they're rich and not if not. That might just be a guy vs. girl thing, but I wonder.

3:13 PM  
Anonymous Mike Koplow said...

Some friends of mine were looking for a day school down here in the lower forty-seven. At one of them, they were told what the curric was for their son's grade. They said he already knew some of that stuff and asked if the school had any contingency plans for boredom prevention. The school person told them they shouldn't be teaching their child. (This line, BT"W, is verbatim from subplot in *To Kill a Mockingbird*, so my friends may have made the story up to see if I'd identify it, but I doubt it.)

4:00 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"I'm sorry for your stress- don't let ANY of this go- if you don't get some satifactory responses I'd strongly suggest taking your kids elsewhere (esp your son!)"

OM -- right in your neighborhood is a boys school that is absolutely fixated on middos. This school is vibrant and growing, though often viewed as a lesser school (read: less frum), with many parents seeking the pedigreed "frummer" diploma, flocking lemming-like over the border to the school that appears to have middos issues. in reality, the school they most want all along is right in their own backyards.

School that focus on middos are typically looked upon as less frum. Talmud Torah k'neged kulam??

4:31 PM  
Blogger Rivka said...

I think I can top you, Orthomom. Things my son's Hebrew teacher has said:

"In my 25 years, this is the first class I have not been able to teach Hebrew..."

"Don't you dare go home and tell your mom about this! I'll know it was you!"

[To a girl who was crying from a stomach ache, in front of the whole classroom] "That's what you deserve for bugging me."

[To a boy complaining of eye irritaiton] "I don't care, get back to work."

[To me, in front of a group of boys from my son's class] "They are like babies, you have to show them everything!"

By the way, this woman is still teaching at the school, and has been for over twenty years. I'm trying to get her fired. Wish me luck.

6:08 PM  
Anonymous kaspit said...

Overall, we are fairly satisfied. But now you've gotten me started...

We've had difficulty getting the school to respond more actively to instances of teasing, bullying, etc. One Rabbi gets it, but the school overall isn't inclined to deal with such problems in a programmatic fashion.

Anothr problem tends to be the rote style of teaching, e.g. math. Not only is the material terribly repetitive, but the child who advances to the next textbook has to do endless repetitive "review" drills (which the textbook does for the beginning of a school year). How can I support doing homework in such a situation?

In general, the teachers often can't figure out how to hold out high enough expectations. So the homework and the learning is far below intellectual/creative ability, and it stunts the enthusiasm for learning.

6:47 PM  
Anonymous deeni said...

Comments like this make me want to homeschool. I'll never forget the 4th grade teacher who made kids cry and danced around singing "raindrops are falling on my head." And I know all about the "favorite" problem-- I was her favorite (sometimes), so I got to escort kids to the principal's office. Except when she made me stand in front of the class and made fun of me for being a baby because my mother carried my ridiculously heavy and bulky projectup two flights of stairs.

8:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

reminder: LPS has PROFESSIONAL educators. the yeshivas should work out a deal to hire them to teach in the yeshivas. taxes would go up, but tuition would come down, and a higher quality education would be received. (church and state issues? I suppose. how about setting a national precedent?)

8:41 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

reminder: LPS has PROFESSIONAL educators.
Bulletin: my friends with their kids in LPS have as many, if not more complaints about their teachers. Who are you kidding?

9:16 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Overall, we are fairly satisfied. But now you've gotten me started...
Truth be told, overall we are satisfied as well. There is much positive to be said about my kids' schools. I just wasn't in the mood to put them in this post.

9:18 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

"There is much positive to be said about my kids' schools. I just wasn't in the mood to put them in this post."

And if you were, it would make the post borrring.

9:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Bulletin: my friends with their kids in LPS have as many, if not more complaints about their teachers. Who are you kidding?"

So, is it true that ignorance is bliss?

9:58 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

So, is it true that ignorance is bliss?
I don't know, you tell me. Are you telling me that my friends with kids in the LPS system are lying, or that THEY are ignorant somehow, or that they are imaginary? Because they are none of the above.

10:13 PM  
Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

On a different level, my eleventh grade math teacher, Mrs. Greenberg, told my parents, in front of me, that "Moishe should not go to college in the sciences, he will never pass math." Eight years later, Professor Q. Public, youngest tenure track professor at a major university, in engineering, went to visit her. She just smiled and said nothing.

10:36 PM  
Blogger Ayelet said...

Awesome post.

10:53 PM  
Anonymous LC said...

So, is it true that ignorance is bliss?
I don't know, you tell me. Are you telling me that my friends with kids in the LPS system are lying, or that THEY are ignorant somehow, or that they are imaginary? Because they are none of the above.


Huh? The "ignorance is bliss" comment sounded to me like anonymous was 'happier' not knowing that the LPS teachers were also lousy. You know, revealing the myth makes it hard to believe the grass is greener and all that.

9:39 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Huh? The "ignorance is bliss" comment sounded to me like anonymous was 'happier' not knowing that the LPS teachers were also lousy.
Thanks for your take. I wasn't sure if the commenter was a LPS parent telling me that I was ignorant. I picked up quite a few LPS trolls during my posting on the School Board elections. You're probably right, and I shouldn't have snapped back like I did.

9:53 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

Never Change OM. your impulsive snap-backs are what we love about you. Even if you occassionally have to say, "Neeeeeeevvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeer mind."

(That's a Saturday Night Live reference for those not in the know)

10:35 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

LOL. I got the reference. With my personality, I find myself making the "neeeeevvvveeeeeer mind" joke more often than I'd like!

10:56 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

I figured you would. I added rashi for your readers.

11:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, you were correct. I meant that your comments are indeed ignorant. Do you suppose that the Intel finalists and semifinalists that the LPS produces every year is because that the students are so brilliant that an automaton could be placed in front of them with the same result? Do you think that you would be able to help district students gain admission to Ivy League schools if you were the teacher? Has it ever occured to people that some students come to school with such basic skills that teachers actually lift them to levels that are still low, but better than when they arrived?Also, to disparage a huge group of professional educators carte blanche is disturbing. Are all LPS teachers incredible and dynamic. No. Are a lot of them? Yes. Just as some of the yeshiva teachers must be. However, the cream rises to the top. Generally, the better teachers have the confidence and ambition to seek out higher paying school districts, districts that have the luxury to be selective because of the large number of applicants. Unfortunately, private schools and New York City are left with several types of teachers, those without enough ambition to leave, those that are unable to land a better job, or those that simply enjoy where they work and want to stay. Lastly, I don't believe that the comments from a few of your friends about their experiences with the LPS counts as a significant sample which to base an overall conclusion on.

12:08 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

some people just like to get all worked up.

1:21 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

"Lastly, I don't believe that the comments from a few of your friends about their experiences with the LPS counts as a significant sample which to base an overall conclusion on."

Anon: I don't what you were reading, but M4 never made any "overall conclusions" regarding LPS teachers. She was just making an observation reagarding the experiences of some people she knows in LPS. The same way she is just making an observation regarding some of her experiences with her children's day school teachers. I think the overall point is that some teachers everywhere aren't doing their job.

2:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Funny how people defend OM, but don't respond at all to my points.

2:47 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Funny how people defend OM, but don't respond at all to my points.
What points did you make??? That LPS teachers are overall good, and some are subpar? I guess you didn't notice the fact that that was my point.

Let's review events that transpired upthread:

I complained about some of my kids' teachers.

You felt that was an great opportunity to suggest replacing ALL Yeshiva teachers with the "professional" LPS teachers, implying that Yeshiva teachers, as a group, lack professionalism. To use your own words, which apparently you should try to internalize before you advise others:
"Also, to disparage a huge group of professional educators carte blanche is disturbing.

In response to your denigration of the Yeshiva teachers, I pointed out that not all LPS teachers are as professional as you claim.

You felt that somehow in that statement, I was denigrating all LPS teachers, and in defending LPS teachers, came to exactly the same points I was making to start, which were, to quote you:
"Lastly, I don't believe that the comments from a few of your friends about their experiences with the LPS counts as a significant sample which to base an overall conclusion on."

Sigh. Come back when you aren't only interested in pushing an agenda - in this case the LPS agenda. If you have something smart to say that isn't to look for any opportunity to push the LPS's case against anything that has to do with the Yeshivas, then feel free to pipe in.

3:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ummmm....were you not the one that went off on a tirade about the unprofessionalism of yeshiva teachers and administrators? Of course, this doesn't mean they are all bad. Some outstanding private school teachers choose their careers because they enjoy the environment and/or don't need the higher salary provided by the public schools. However, to those teachers that choose their place of employment at least partly based on salary, the higher paying districts are able to attract the better teachers. It's the free market economy at its finest, just as Fortune 500 companies are able to attract the best and brightest, and get to choose from a selective list of candidates. For this reason, the odds are that the LPS teachers MAY be better than private school teachers. I was simply stating, in reply to your original post, that if you are unhappy with the quality of your child's education, the LPS has professional educators. While imperfect like all of humanity, they have proven themselves through years of achievement. (I’m sure people with absolutely no understanding of the district demographics will start screaming about recent test scores. BTW, OM, I didn’t see a post by you on the recent article in the Herald about how the LPS was recognized among a select group of schools nationwide to significantly decrease the academic gap between blacks and Hispanics and their white classmates.) My original post lacked any negativity or proselytizing of any sort. I was simply stating MY opinion, as I am certainly not in any position to represent whatever LPS agenda you referred to. While I was expecting an interesting discussion about the pros and cons of public school teachers teaching private school children, I instead received the following response:
"Bulletin: my friends with their kids in LPS have as many, if not more complaints about their teachers. Who are you kidding?"
I wasn't "kidding" anyone. I was simply looking for a thoughtful response, which unfortunately, you chose not to offer. Even your later posts seem quite snide, as if you were in attack mode. "Sigh. Come back when you aren't only interested in pushing an agenda - in this case the LPS agenda. If you have something smart to say that isn't to look for any opportunity to push the LPS's case against anything that has to do with the Yeshivas, then feel free to pipe in." Against the yeshivas? Did I say anything against the yeshivas? I was simply expressing an idea that I thought might be beneficial to the entire community. Disagree, fine, but be expressive and mature when doing so. Unfortunately, finding people willing to actually listen to others without getting defensive appears to be getting more difficult by the day around here.

3:50 PM  
Blogger Rivka said...

Um, what is LPS?

And did I win the contest?

4:30 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Ummmm....were you not the one that went off on a tirade about the unprofessionalism of yeshiva teachers and administrators?
Ummm....yeah. Some of them, for sure.
But I certainlty didn't bring LPS up.

My original post lacked any negativity or proselytizing of any sort. I was simply stating MY opinion, as I am certainly not in any position to represent whatever LPS agenda you referred to.
Sure. The word PROFESSIONAL in caps was just a quirk. You meant nothing by it. Maybe your Caps Lock key got temporarily stuck?
Just to remind you of your comment:
reminder: LPS has PROFESSIONAL educators. the yeshivas should work out a deal to hire them to teach in the yeshivas. taxes would go up, but tuition would come down, and a higher quality education would be received.
Nothing negative was meant by that
statement.
And I have a bridge to sell you.

4:44 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

"It's the free market economy at its finest."

That's utter nonsense. The reason they can attract the best teachers (assuming you are right) is because the residents are RICH, property values are high and the pay big $$$ in real estate taxes. AND because they have district full of a certain population that dumps money in LPS' coffers without utilizing their services. More like the free market at its most unfair and distorted, if it can be called the free market at all.

4:49 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

as I said, some people just like to get all worked up.

4:54 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Rivka said...

Um, what is LPS?


Lawrence Public School. I've posted a lot about the unfortunate animosity in my school district between Yeshiva parents and LPS parents and teachers. If you run a search at the top of the page, the posts should come up.

4:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I apologize that my use of caps when typing the word PROFESSIONAL was viewed as some sort of attack. It was simply a response to your post bashing (some) yeshiva educators. (whether you believe me or not, I'm being sincere.) You commented on their lack of professionalism. I wasn't agreeing with you, because I don't know the first thing about yeshiva education. I was, however, pointing out that if you thought yeshiva educators were so unprofessional, LPS teachers are increasingly thought of as an option. Although, from what I understand, the district has lost many outstanding young teachers who have left for greener pastures out of fear (justified) of the future of the district. Also, new teachers may be less inclined to come to Lawrence for the money knowing the financial situation the district continually finds itself in. BTW, the point that no one responded to was the one about public school teachers teaching in the yeshivas. It seems to me, if this occured, taxes would go up, but not as much as tuition costs, leading to an overall savings. Also, based upon your thoughts about yeshiva educators, there is a good chance that LPS teachers would provide a better overall education. The outstanding teachers within the yeshiva system could apply for district jobs, gain higher salaries, and continue to work at the same position. People would have more of an incentive to pass budgets, and all district children, public and private, would benefit in the end. Utopia? Perhaps. But, hey, someone's got to dream, and the only way to help the needs of the entire community is to think outside of the box.

5:18 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

BTW, the point that no one responded to was the one about public school teachers teaching in the yeshivas.
There are major church/state issues. There is no Yeshiva that is comprised of solely students from the Lawrence School District. Are you suggesting a track for Lawrence students? Obviously unrealistic. So the option is really, dead in the water.

It seems to me, if this occured, taxes would go up, but not as much as tuition costs, leading to an overall savings.
Allow me to remind you that Private School parents pay as much in taxes as we would if our children would actually be sitting in your classes. So I'm not sure how taxes would actually go up. I suggest you rethink your numbers. if private school parents actually took you up on your suggestion and availed themselves of the education that they are entitled to, LPS would really be in trouble.

5:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think my numbers are fine. If private school students were educated by LPS teachers, taxes would indeed rise for all homeowners in district 15. The LPS would have to hire more teaches, aides, supplies, etc. This costs money. Yeshiva tuition would come down dramatically if they no longer had to pay their teachers salaries and benefits. Nor would they have to purchase other school related supplies. I would be very surprised if the rise in taxes, coupled with a tuition decrease, did not result in an overall savings for private school families. The people who would take issue with this proposal would be public school parents. Currently, private school families pay taxes that go towards the education of the public school population. The amount of money paid in taxes that supports the private school students is miniscule in comparison. However, this would be turned on its head if LPS teachers taught in the yeshivas. All community residents would see a tax increase, causing a major shift in the past and current trend. Public school families would be paying a larger share of taxes to educate private school children. Actually, it should be stated that the community would be finally working together to educate all of the youth of the community. Would the public school community tolerate this? A segment would not. However, hopefully most public school parents would realize that this proposal is best for the entire community, public and private. Budgets would be more likely to pass, resources and services would be more available, and we would be considered national leaders in implementing a solution to a problem that other communites must face as well. Then there is the church and state issue. There is a good chance that you are right, that the whole point is moot. However, don't forget, the Supreme Court is not about to take a step to the left with two Bush appointments on the horizon, and more to come should Breyer retire as well. You never can tell what a conservative court will decide. I just don't know if the will is there among private school families to pursue such an option, considering the ominous church and state issues, and pressure from the yeshivas, rabbis, and community members. Whew! So much for the short reply I intended to write. G'night!

8:09 PM  
Blogger rebba shlita said...

years ago in monroe the jews wanted rebates b/c the propety taxes they paid for went to the public schools and not to them. when the request was turned down they decided that on so and so day they will send all the chasidisha kids into the public school system. everyone participated. needless to say the public didnt know what hit them there was no place to stick everyone. they pleaded with the chasidim to take the kids back to yeshiva and a compromise was worked out. this is how it gets done.

9:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

rebba: but what you're saying is quite different. the Monroe situation was obviously antagonistic. I'm talking about working together. Also, a major difference is that public school teachers would teach IN the yeshivas, in essence, having all of the chasidisha kids enroll in the public schools while remaining in their home schools. many, many, many issues would arrise. (non resident yeshiva students, for one.) but my scenario is very different than the one you describe.

10:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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3:21 PM  
Blogger Renegade Rebbetzin said...

I have not a whit of energy to read all of these comments, but you poor, poor thing. Unfathomable, all of it.

8:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

please tell the GYM TEACHERS TO BE NICER TO THE "HEAVY" KIDS

Let's face it, religious day schools aren't attracting anything close to the best physical education teachers. True story from last week: on a hot day with high humidity, my kid's day school gym teacher had the students running laps after playing kickball on the (black, heat radiating) asphalt parking lot. When it was pointed out to him that one child had heat exhaustion after his class and that he should work the next class less hard, he replied, "no, she fine - I know these things - I'm a sports medicine person". Said girl had turned completely pink and required several hours of ice packs and fluid intake before recovering; several other students had less dramatic but clear problems as well. He is a moron - just as were several other gym teachers at the other day school my kids attended.

10:48 PM  
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