District 15 Salaries
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I will admit to hesitating before posting the following links. I worry that people will misconstrue any criticism at all of teachers' receiving high salaries as displaying a lack of support for public education, and a lack of respect for the priceless contribution that teachers make to our children's development on a day-to-day basis. Not so. I am a firm believer that in order to aquire and keep talented and dedicated teachers in both the public and private school systems, paying competitive salaries is a must. That said, the following information, all public, was disturbing enough to me that I felt I had to bring it to the attention of the voters of School District #15. Following you will find links (in PDF format) to lists of teachers' salaries for the district. After careful consideration, I have redacted the names of all those named on the list - although the information is public. The salaries remain listed, without the names, and are downloadable here.
Keep in mind that the listed salaries do not include extracurricular payments, which can total up to $28k on top of their salaries for some teachers. Also, each teacher receives benefits which total an additional about $30k for each employee. What I find disturbing about these lists is not the fact that many of these employees are being paid well into the six figures. It is the SD#15 contract agreement that shocked me. (Full document downloadable here). Particularly interesting was Appendix 1 of the document (pages 51-57), which show the automatic stepped increases received by district teachers. Right now, the teachers' receive an annual automatic increase of 3%, plus an added 1.5-2% in increased benefits and pension costs. That translates into an automatic 4.5% increase yearly. In addition, each employee receives an additional raise as he/she rises in seniority. For example, a BA with a salary step of 5 receives $55,298 under the 2003/2004 scale. In 2004/2005, a BA with salary step of 5 receives $56,957, an increase of 3%. Except for the minor detail that a teacher with a BA and a salary step of five advances a step annually, according to the teacher's contract (p. 7, para. 4). So a teacher with a BA and a salary step of 5 in 2003/2004 becomes a teacher with a BA and a salary step of 6 in 2004/2005. In one year, he goes from $55,298 to $58,634. That's a pay raise of over 6% - not 3%. Double raises, every year, all around. We are talking about an automatic 7.5-8% yearly increase in salary for every single district teacher. There is nothing in the pay scale equation to indicate that there is any weight given to teacher's performance at all.
There is this sentiment I hear expressed throughout the public school community that the private school community (read: the Orthodox community) does not care about educating the district's public school students. Somehow, the fact that there is a movement to vote down budgets until the district can present one that is more fiscally sound is seen as nothing but an attempt by the Orthodox community to cheat students atending the district's schools out of an education. Please. These salary lists hardly show that the district is maximizing their dollars to provide the district's students with the best-performing teachers. If there is an automatic salary increase that far exceeds any cost-of-living increase estimates, with no linkage to teacher performance, then I need proof that this (to my eye) bloated teacher's contract is helping district students as much as it helps the teachers.
I passed a lawn sign today which was put up by the candidates for the "other side". (The candidates which have the support of the public school community, as well as - obviously - the Lawrence Teacher's Association.) The sign indicated that they are "the public school candidates". As if somehow, 60% of the district's children who don't attend public school are not going to be represented by the candidates if they are elected. Nice.
I will admit to hesitating before posting the following links. I worry that people will misconstrue any criticism at all of teachers' receiving high salaries as displaying a lack of support for public education, and a lack of respect for the priceless contribution that teachers make to our children's development on a day-to-day basis. Not so. I am a firm believer that in order to aquire and keep talented and dedicated teachers in both the public and private school systems, paying competitive salaries is a must. That said, the following information, all public, was disturbing enough to me that I felt I had to bring it to the attention of the voters of School District #15. Following you will find links (in PDF format) to lists of teachers' salaries for the district. After careful consideration, I have redacted the names of all those named on the list - although the information is public. The salaries remain listed, without the names, and are downloadable here.
Keep in mind that the listed salaries do not include extracurricular payments, which can total up to $28k on top of their salaries for some teachers. Also, each teacher receives benefits which total an additional about $30k for each employee. What I find disturbing about these lists is not the fact that many of these employees are being paid well into the six figures. It is the SD#15 contract agreement that shocked me. (Full document downloadable here). Particularly interesting was Appendix 1 of the document (pages 51-57), which show the automatic stepped increases received by district teachers. Right now, the teachers' receive an annual automatic increase of 3%, plus an added 1.5-2% in increased benefits and pension costs. That translates into an automatic 4.5% increase yearly. In addition, each employee receives an additional raise as he/she rises in seniority. For example, a BA with a salary step of 5 receives $55,298 under the 2003/2004 scale. In 2004/2005, a BA with salary step of 5 receives $56,957, an increase of 3%. Except for the minor detail that a teacher with a BA and a salary step of five advances a step annually, according to the teacher's contract (p. 7, para. 4). So a teacher with a BA and a salary step of 5 in 2003/2004 becomes a teacher with a BA and a salary step of 6 in 2004/2005. In one year, he goes from $55,298 to $58,634. That's a pay raise of over 6% - not 3%. Double raises, every year, all around. We are talking about an automatic 7.5-8% yearly increase in salary for every single district teacher. There is nothing in the pay scale equation to indicate that there is any weight given to teacher's performance at all.
There is this sentiment I hear expressed throughout the public school community that the private school community (read: the Orthodox community) does not care about educating the district's public school students. Somehow, the fact that there is a movement to vote down budgets until the district can present one that is more fiscally sound is seen as nothing but an attempt by the Orthodox community to cheat students atending the district's schools out of an education. Please. These salary lists hardly show that the district is maximizing their dollars to provide the district's students with the best-performing teachers. If there is an automatic salary increase that far exceeds any cost-of-living increase estimates, with no linkage to teacher performance, then I need proof that this (to my eye) bloated teacher's contract is helping district students as much as it helps the teachers.
I passed a lawn sign today which was put up by the candidates for the "other side". (The candidates which have the support of the public school community, as well as - obviously - the Lawrence Teacher's Association.) The sign indicated that they are "the public school candidates". As if somehow, 60% of the district's children who don't attend public school are not going to be represented by the candidates if they are elected. Nice.
posted by orthomom at 6:21 PM
69 Comments:
I work in the public school system and I will be moving to Long Island pronto. Thanks for the tip:)
LOL! Anytime.
Did u try yahoo or geocities?
Yes, thanks. Geocities was the host that crashed.
The salaries you quote are a lot less than a good teacher would make in the private sector. In order to attract people into the field, salaries have to be high.
And if you can come up with a good way of measuring the quality of a teacher's performance, please let us know! Standardized test scores are basically a function of the demographics of the parents and if we start paying teachers on the basis of test scores, as some have proposed, no one will want to teach in the less wealthier areas. Most colleges and universities (including the one where I work) rely almost entirely on student evaluations. That creates incentives to (1) entertain, (2) give little homework, and (3) give lots of high grades.
That said, I have no idea how you folks on Long Island can pay the property taxes you pay. Many of your towns have little commercial or industrial property, and there is no local income tax, so the entire burden of funding the schools falls on property owners. Here in NYC all those Manhattan skyscrapers keep property taxes low for us in the outer boroughs where most of us live. Might it be possible to create a county-wide school district to help create economies of scale and allow the commercial areas to benefit the entire county? Maryland has county school districts -- only 24 for the entire state.
The salaries you quote are a lot less than a good teacher would make in the private sector. In order to attract people into the field, salaries have to be high.
I quoted a very low example. Check back when the tables are back up - hopefully within few hours. I ran the numbers by some friends who teach in the private sector, and they were amazed at the numbers. Definitely not "a lot less than a good teacher would make in the private sector", as you say.
That said, I have no idea how you folks on Long Island can pay the property taxes you pay.
Well, yeah. That's exactly the crux of the issue here. If taxes are going to continue to be so exorbitant, I would like to see my hard-earned dollars being spent wisely and not wastefully.
Thank you, OM, for rebutting the old canard that teachers always make less than they would in the private sector with similar qualifications and experience.
I worked as a teacher (admittedly, post-secondary) at both private and public colleges for 17 years before leaving to run a family business. It's true that comparing teaching to many other professions is misleading -- most people drastically underestimate the amount of time good teachers spend on preparation.
However, my experience in education versus my experience as CEO of a small business has led me to the conclusion that while public school teachers may have many legitimate gripes, most seem to be *radically* out of touch with salaries, benefits, and expectations in the for-profit working world. When you challenge any their assumptions, they swear that every single one of their friends is earning $150K, works flex-hours, gets five weeks annual vacation, never takes work home, and receives full family medical benefits.
There are no doubt some highly overpaid, underperforming folks in the private sector, but for each of them, there's an army of administrative assistants earning far, far less than the salaries we're discussing here!
This is a great post. Thanks for making heads and tails of the raise schedule. In my law firm, we acheive levels of seniority every FIVE years, not every year. This system of double raises is unheard of. But frankly, I don't know why you removed the names of the specific teachers. If its all public info, whats the dif? I would like to see the original docs.
Keep up the good work.
Voting down the budget is not going to fix the problem! They need a new contract!!
I remember once seeing the wage scales for CUNY professors. I believe the highest salary was around $95,000.
Anonymous said...
I remember once seeing the wage scales for CUNY professors. I believe the highest salary was around $95,000.
Not so here. There are many teachers here with salaries into the six figures.
Great post. Does anyone in the public sector understand economics?! How do they expect to pay the salaries of teachers 10 years from now, after they've had a compounded 6+% raise every year?
Here we go again....the private school community has their reason for voting down the budget. Congrats!
Do you really think that public school parents support the teacher's contract??? In fact, Stanley Kopilow, public school elected board member, is one of the most adament that there needs to be a change in the contract!!
HAS IT EVEN BEEN MENTIONED THAT THE TEACHERS ARE CURRENTLY WORKING WITHOUT A CONTRACT!!!!
Anonymous,
It is a shame that the teacher's are working without a contract, and its really something that should be rectified. I doubt there's anyone in the entire district that thinks teachers (or anyone for that matter) should be without a contract.
Why hasn't the current board seen fit to enter into a contract with the teachers? Is it the fault of the teachers or of the board?
Regardless, when is the last time you heard of a union contract, anywhere, come up for a renewal where the rate of salary raises was decreased (not the salaries, but the rate that they're increased)? The only times I've heard of it were situations like Delta, where, if the pilots didn't accept a pay cut (and not just a lowering of the rate of future raises), the company would go bankrupt.
For whatever the reason, the board and union don't have a contract. Either way, it is unlikely that the salary increases will level off, and thus it is up to the parents to keep forcing the issue, since their elected representatives, however good intentioned, aren't getting the job done (on this front).
Orthomom, I posted an in depth response to your April 8th entry and never received a response. I am posting here again, and if you have the time, I am curious to know what you think. Thank you.
"Our Lawrence teachers have a clause in their contract which requires them to be paid within the top 10% of teachers in the county."
I'm a Lawrence teacher recently turned onto this site. First of all, this comment is totally incorrect. There is no such provision in our contract. Secondly, Charlie Hall is right. Lawrence is slowly becoming a NYC school. Top teachers and administrators go to the best districts, oftentimes using the city as a stepping-stone. Lawrence, once a final destination unto itself, is becoming a stepping-stone. High salaries or not, teachers, as all people, want to work in an environment where they feel respected for their commitment. Many incredible Lawrence teachers have left, or are looking to flee.
Orthomom, you stated, "First, the Public Schools have been crying poverty due to the rejection of budgets in the last few elections, which have forced the district into 3 years of austerity budgets. That is somewhat hard to take seriously when they are still managing to find the money to pay their admistrators and teachers at what are among the highest salary rates in Nassau County. Clearly, the "austerity" budget is not forcing SD #15 to be as austere as we are being led to believe." The district must live up to its contractual obligations, as well as all state and federal mandates. Whatever money is left, under austerity, can only be spent in particular ways. The high school auditorium is unsafe to use. Leaks permeate the ceilings of most, if not all of the buildings. Computers cannot be upgraded because of austerity limitations. The list goes on. It seems from your comments that if the district had the power to do so, they should fix these problems by cutting teacher salaries. I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm pretty sure you feel as though you have earned your income and that you are worth the expense to your employer. I know that I have worked very hard in my life to attain a teaching position that pays me commensurate to my education and ability. If I don't say so myself, I feel that I am an outstanding educator. By the way, I am not living large, either. I have a mortgage to pay, have a family to feed, and pay very high taxes. I make enough money to be comfortable but remain frugal, as do most people that live on this exorbitantly priced island.
Be careful for what you wish for. If teachers continue to be demonized, how is our nation expected to attract the best and brightest of our young people into the profession? This is, in my opinion, a national crisis, with Lawrence being a perfect microcosm. Instead of criticizing teachers for reaching the top of their profession, criticism should be leveled at politicians on both the federal and state levels. While mandates increase, the feds have made millions of dollars in cuts to education. The responsibility to fulfill these mandates therefore falls on the localities that have no alternative but to raise taxes. The state is also to blame for using an antiquated system to figure out the amount of state aid received by each district, a system that puts suburban districts in Nassau, Suffolk, and Westchester, among others, at a distinct disadvantage when compared to districts in other parts of the state. Property values are used to determine the relative wealth of a community, and state education aid is doled out accordingly. Under this system, Long Island is considered a high wealth area, leading to a decrease in state funds. The problem with this is that salaries have not kept up with property values. Therefore, taxes go up, which many people simply cannot afford to pay. Young adults are increasingly moving off of the island because they can no longer afford to live here.
As I previously stated, we need to encourage the best and brightest amongst us to become teachers, especially in this increasingly competitive global economy. Blaming teachers for the economic ills of a community will certainly not help the well being of the community, as those that are able to leave for greener pastures will, and graduates of our nations best universities will continue to shun education in even greater numbers than they already do. Then, may I ask, who will be left to educate our future business, political, and community leaders? Reform is needed in a major way, and I await the politician with both the will and fortitude to confront it.
Constantly voting down the budget will lead to a curb of teacher's salaries. Just like the board will learn, eventually, that they need to be more efficient with their money, the union will learn that their contract can't include exhorbitant raises. The voters just won't approve.
"Do you really think that public school parents support the teacher's contract??? In fact, Stanley Kopilow, public school elected board member, is one of the most adament that there needs to be a change in the contract!!"
With all due respect, any public school parent who's frustrated with the teachers' contract would have to be a moron to vote for candidates who are endorsed and financed by the teachers' union year after year. (And yes, we all know they're supporting them again this year, whether or not their dumb enough to advertise that.)
Any public school parent who doesn't realize that grossly overpaid teachers = grossly underservices children should have the sense to vote against the candidates who are "in bed" with the union. (And obviously that includes various board members whose family members and friends are beneficiaries of these lucrative teachers contracts.)
The teachers have gotten just about every concession they've asked for from all of the board members that they've previously endorsed and there's no doubt they'll do fine if they help elect another two board members, they'll manage to get another sweet contract from the district.
This is a no-brainer for anyone who wants to restore fiscal responsibility and academic excellence to the district - there must be greater attention paid to the needs of the children, and asking for more money (with millions of dollars in surpluses), paying teachers more to do less, or blaming failures on private school parents, hasn't worked until now and won't work next year either. More money for teachers = less money for students. More waste on keeping empty buildings open = less money for students. A vote for more of the same candidates cannot possibly be a solution to the district's woes (although it's certaily the best thing the teachers' union can hope fo).
"grossly overpaid teachers "
what would be an appropriate top salary for a teacher?
So what is the option for public school voters if we don't vote for the public school candidates who had their signs paid for the by the LTA? Support an Orthodox candidate like David Sussman who was Board president when an 18 million surplus disappeared (and was still voted in by the ORthodox) or Asher Mansdorf who recently voted against much needed repairs needed to the #4 school or Murray Foreman who has publicly states that he wants to close all of the public schools and 'wharehouse' the kids out in the current Middle School????
Eventually, and unfortunaly, the Board is going to be all Orhtodox. What are they going to do then? Do you really think the public schools are going to be a place we want to send our kids....or is this religious Board that could care less about public schools going to continue to shred the school system based on false innuendos and personal preferences????
Very thinly veiled anti-(orthodox)semitism, but that's generally what it all boils down to.
"Support an Orthodox candidate like David Sussman who was Board president when an 18 million surplus disappeared"
Last I checked, David Sussman is not Orthodox, nor do his children attend private school. But I give him a lot of credit for trying so hard to fix the system, asking all of the difficult questions and looking for solutions to the problems, despite the harassment that he and his children are subjected to by ALPS-LPS-PTA-LTA crowd. The surplus did not disappear - it was spend on an unecessary hiring spree, among other things, which has still neglected to reverse. While I'm not a mind reader, I would think that David Sussman has seen so much devastation first hand in the schools that he's probably the most motivated person in the district to right all the wrongs. It's hard not to admire him for that. I've never been to a school board meeting, where he hasn't asked the difficult, yet logical questions that no one else has the balls (pardon my language) to ask.
"Asher Mansdorf who recently voted against much needed repairs needed to the #4 school or Murray Foreman who has publicly states that he wants to close all of the public schools"
30 years ago, an audit indicated that the District's buildings were significantly underutilized and that 3 buildings should be closed. Now, conservative estimates show that 2-3 more buildings should be closed and that between 50 and 75 million dollars has been pissed away over the years just for keeping all of these buildings open unecesseraly. The superitendent has finally conceded that 1-2 more buildings need to be closed in the near future and it will happend in the next year or two.
And you're criticizing Mansdorf for voting against possibly unecessary costly repairs to a building that might be sold and demolished in the near future, and Forman for suggesting before the superitendent did that buildings be closed.
Call them visionaries or realists, but there has never been any indication from them or the new "private school" candidates that they are not looking out for the best interests of the public school and private school children alike. The ALPS-LPS-LTA-PTA candidates have already run the system underground - It's clearly the time for change.
"grossly overpaid teachers "
what would be an appropriate top salary for a teacher?
This in my opinion is the real question. If you look at the salaries for other schools, which you posted earlier back for 2004-2005 salaries, a starting teacher with a master in Lawrence is 10% lower than the starting salary of the top spot. After 20 years and 30 additional credits, the Lawrence salary is only at most 7% larger then 50% of the other schools in nassau.
Lawrence teachers are not what I would call grossly overpaid. Are they paid more than some of other schools? Yes. Should Lawrence be paying less? Perhaps, but the cost of living for Long Island is very high and a teacher won't be living an exuberant lifestyle with that salary on LI.
Why are Lawrence salaries so high? Mainly because Lawrence was and still is a source for an excellent education. Lawrence always tried to employ some of the best teachers and as in any business, the best way to attract them is through a higher pay. The teaching lifestyle is as difficult if not more difficult then a lot of industries and jobs, especially today. Until people experience the daily life of a teacher, it is hard to really understand what it takes.
So, I'll ask the question again too, what is an appropriate salary then?
It's quite interesting to me that Orthomom believes the community will support a fiscally sound budget. Last year the Board of Ed put up a budget BELOW contigency, and it still failed, so the District was actually given more money to spend than if the budget had been approved.
Sussman is a sick man that thrives on the warring that goes on in this community. He is the tool of the Orthodox.
Not blaming Sussman, while President of the Board, for the mismanagement of the 18 million is like not blaming Bush for keeping our troops in Iraq!
Anonymous said...
It's quite interesting to me that Orthomom believes the community will support a fiscally sound budget. Last year the Board of Ed put up a budget BELOW contigency, and it still failed, so the District was actually given more money to spend than if the budget had been approved.
It's quite interesting to me that the same misleading facts that were used in last years (failed) campaign for the budget are still being trotted out. The bottom line is that the schools have lost the trust of the voters in the district. Austerity budgets narrowly define how the money in the surplus and other sources can be used. The budget that was presented last year may well have been slightly below contingency, but it would have removed the restrictions that austerity placed on spending down the surplus. The voters spoke loud and clear when they voted down the budget, and they said that they didn't trust the school board to use those funds wisely. I would like to add that the voters who rejected the budget were very clearly not all Orthodox, as the Orthodox school board candidate did not get voted in. Maybe people should wake up to the fact that there are other voters besides the Orthodox who are frustrated and disgusted with the complete lack of fiscal oversight on the part of the board.
I am a mother. The last thing I want to do is take the means for a proper education away from district children. But right now, I need to feel like there are more measures being taken to spend responsibly.
Woo hoo OM! You go girl!
What is the O community going to do when they have full control of the Board?? Are they going to put up budgets that slash programs and activities?? OR are they going to, he he he, pass the budget?! NOT!
Again, voting the budget down does not change the teachers' contract. Voting the budget down results in slashed programs which hurts the public school kids and no one else!
What kind of budget do you think we can anticipate once the Board is all Orthodox???
Anonymous 5:23pm
There was ample reason to vote down the below contingency budget of last year, not only due to the loopholes which would have actually increased the money available to the school board
Anonymous 5:47pm
See my previous comment. By voting down the budget, the teachers will know that they won't get the contract they want, and will negotiate with an eye towards concessions.
"Stephen Clements, who lives in Commack, doesn't pay our school taxes"
somehow I doubt that taxes are much less out in Commack
"You want to know WHY TALENTED TEACHERS ARE LEAVING???? There is a BRAIN DRAIN in the schools. The Jewish children in our community always made a good mix for the teachers. With most of them gone, we are left with a multitude of immigrant children."
I'm sure there are plenty of "brainy" non-Jewish children left in the public schools. Also, last I checked, we were a nation of immigrants.
"Do you realize that MY DAUGHTER graduated from high school not knowing her multiplication tables by heart? "
Is this the collective fault of every math teacher she ever had? Did she somehow end up with the worst math teacher in every grade?
Do you realize that in Resource Room, they help the children take tests from other classes and help them do their homework?
The state mandates that classified children receive services such as extended test time, having each test question read and explained, and having tests modified. They also get extra help in small group settings in resource room with things such as homework. What would you like the resource room teacher to do?
"We all pay for it, some pay double and some belong in jail."
Lost me here.
Hi, Call me Sean. I just bought a house in Woodmere in February and I have a little boy of one year old. I have school tax on my home of around 8K and general tax of 5K.
I recently read the mailer that I got today showing that SD#15 services over 7,000 children and has a budget of 93 Million. To me that meant educating children at an average cost of 13.5K. When I learned the truth that only about 3500 children are schooled which represents 83 Million in spending or about 27K per child. The 8 Million we spend on the remaining 3500 children or about 2K per child seems cheap.
Two questions beg to be asked from a new school tax payer.
1. Why are we paying 27K for a childs education when private schools provide a better education for far less ? Hell, college educations cost less than this in many schools and not everyone gets a college education. Why not run the school like a company, similar to private schools, and use the savings to give each child a college education.
2. Why are we complaining about providing 10% of our budget to private school children, whose parents often sacrifice for their children to have a better quality education, who also pay a large portion of the school budget, when if they chose to they could put their children in public school and we would all have double taxes next year ? We should be happy and give them whatever it is rather than pay double.
Maybe instead of criticizing the private school parents we should ask them for advice on how they run their schools at lower costs and implement those measures hence cutting all of our school taxes.
If the Public Schools did not have to pay for transportation, text books, Special Education, nurses, social workers, computer software, etc. I'm sure the costs of the public schools would be quite similar to those of the private schools.
Anonymous, do you have any evidence, besides your feelings, that agree with your statement? How much does the district spend per child on transportation and books?
Maybe the district shouldn't pay for the books and transportation of private school children. And maybe the private school children parents shouldn't pay for public school education.
Bring it back to numbers. Please.
This was in response to the statement that private schools do a much better job educating children at a much lower cost. My comment was that any school that did not have to pay for those items listed above for ANY children public or private, could educate children for less money.
But how much less? For instance: (hypo)
Private school (without the above): $13k
Public School (with the above): $27k
Cost of above (per pupil): $5k
If you make the private schools pay for transportation and the public schools dont (for the private children) then you get private at 18k and public at 22k. Still a large difference.
Again, we need numbers. Throwing arguments into the air doesn't help matters.
You guys can dance around the issues all you want, but the fact of the matter is the teachers have controlled the district for too long and they've destroyed the schools in the process.
Public school parents in SD15 pay 25 cents for a $1 of education while public school parents elsewhere pay 60 cents for the same $1 of education. At the same time, private school parents spend 60 cents and get only 8 cents of education. No one could argue that that's not a good enough reason for all public school parents to scream and yell that the private school parents and candidates are all evil and destructive. After all, that's the only way for them to attempt to protect what has become a very comfortable arrangement for them. And no one can argue that private school parents don't have an obligation to support the system either. But waste, fiscal mismanagement, denial of services to private school parents, lack of reconciliation overtures by the ALPS crowd will undoubtedly help turn the tide.
And the public school parents are very fortunate that the private school community and candidates are actually not vindictive and spiteful as they are portrayed by ALPS and the gang. Because the demographics aren't changing - they've already changed.
Why don't you show up at the Candidates Night on Monday (7:30PM) at the Lawrence Middle School?
You can get all your questions answered
Because of their lack of attending the last few years, it is unlikely that anyone will get their chance to ask the ORthodox candidates any questions.
Perusing this blogsite, I wanted to address one issue. Regarding "ALPS and their gang" and the "mystery supporters" of the candidates named Tom Rizzo and Mchael Brooks.
Lawrence Pride & Spirit was a small group compiled of people who were tired of the hateful campaigns of the past few years. It is a small group who chose in the past and now to not be affilated with ALPS. It is comprised of people from all walks of life. The people of this group support ALL of the children in the district and we in fact have 4 "members" who have children in parochial schools.
The LTA made it clear that it would NOT endorse "our" candidates or any other. They of course, support the passing of the budget. Regardless of what assumptions are made, this is fact.
Regarding the LTA and other misinformation: Voting down the school budget will have no effect whatsoever on the teachers' contracts. Without a new contract, they will be working under the old contract, which as discussed above, provides the step ups and increases. This will never change unless by some act of Hashem, the teachers agree to a wage freeze. It *appears* that the current board is UNANIMOUS in this wage freeze.
Again, passing or failing of the budget has no bearing at all on the contract negotiations. The public school parents by and large agree with the "private school" sector in regard to the teachers. The only stakeholders who will be suffering by the budget going yet again is our children. The teachers will still get their increase as dictated by their expired contracts.
Orthomom, I am disappointed to see that you are unwilling to reply to either of my two identical posts. I responded directly to two of your assertions, and made a case about how the issue of school expenditures and high taxes is a complex matter than cannot be solely blamed on high salaries. I was hoping that this could be a forum for real dialogue, but no one, most noticeably you, has responded to my posts. I am left with the impression that it is easier to vent anger and frustration on the teachers than it is to understand the root causes of the financial mess Long Island school districts currently find themselves in. Why haven't you responded, Orthomom? Was it an oversight or a conscious decision not to address the issues I raised? One more thing, anon 10:23. The public schools have not been destroyed, and your assertion that teachers are the cause of this said destruction is abhorrent. Why hasn't anyone disagreed with this nasty comment? Is the silence tacit agreement? You may be relieved to learn that if I find that this forum to be what it appears to be, which is a place to scapegoat teachers for the ills of this community and other highly taxed areas of the suburbs, I will no longer be an anonymous guest. However, if anyone wants to really address the issue in an objective manner, I'm here for the discussion.
Lawrence teacher, I think your questions have been answered in the course of this discussion. You are correct that the teacher's contract is but a slice of the problems that this district faces, but salaries make up 60% of the district's expeditures. To write them off as a small slice is just plain wrong. The bottom line is that the contract is bloated. I showed the double-raise sysytem as outlined in the contract to some friends who are private school teachers and they were shocked. There has to be responsibility shown in the district's spending, and the teacher's contract is a perfect example that shows that it is lacking.
I just finished my lunch. Actually, I still have a few bites of banana left. You will be happy to know that I'm off to grade some papers. BTW, limited computer resources doesn't mean that they don't exist.
So now you guys are telling teachers how they should spend their lunch breaks?!?!?!
"check your tone"
isn't this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? (and I'm NOT a teacher)
Speaking about computers, most likely the teacher is either a) eating lunch in his/her room and is using the computer in that room while no class is in there. Any employee can use their personal time however they wish and using a classroom computer in a empty classroom does not restrict that computer from being available the rest of the day.
It is also possible that b) he or she is eating lunch in the faculty room which would also have a single computer or two for both personal and work related task, and again there should not be a problem if computer is not being and the teacher is on his/her lunch break.
A final note is that we are not as limited as well beyond the life cycle of many of the computer in the district. Many should have been upgraded already and due to austerity restrictions, have not. Also, alot of the computers in classrooms and faculty rooms are the old computers from other buildings that were lucky enough to be replaced with new equipment through grants.
Mr. Lawrence Teacher,
I don't get it. I do not work in education. So that means I am at the job a minimum of 9 hours a day+ travel, no summers off, have no contract, am subject to at will firing, have no guaranteed raise, and have my work reviewed regularly by my manager and compared with dept. project goals and my peers work. I have a few years experience and am working at an employer regularly ranked as one of the top 25 places to work, yet my salary is LESS than many Lawrence public school teacher who you claim are being demonized because you are being paid top dollar, have a guaranteed raise structure, for all intents and purposes are not subject to being fired because of tenure, and are outraged that the community that pays the taxes that make this all possible wonder why the students you teach are not the best in Nassau County. You asserted that you are a 'top notch educator' and therefore deserve top dollar. Well, where are the students' achievements that would substantiate that claim? Lawrence is far from one of the top school districts in the County. Since when does a mediocore product fetch top dollar? Your entire premis is wrong. In the real world, you are not paid commensurate with your ability and education. You are paid commensurate with the value you provide your employer. 'Grossly overpaid' is measured on a relative scale to other teachers, not to some abstract mean of Nassau residents' incomes. I don't compare my salary with residents of my community to see if it is justified; I compare it only with others in my profession. Sorry, but in the real world you can't tell your boss you deserve to make more just because you live on LI. So bottom line: you make more relative to others in your profession, yet you do not produce results (as measured by student's performance) relative to others in your profession. And you want more? I guarantee that there are no shortage of qualified great educators who would trade places with you for less money and not complain. Its called supply and demand in the labor market. Welcome to the real world.
>>>As I previously stated, we need to encourage the best and brightest amongst us to become teachers, especially in this increasingly competitive global economy. Blaming teachers for the economic ills of a community will certainly not help the well being of the community, as those that are able to leave for greener pastures will, and graduates of our nations best universities will continue to shun education in even greater numbers than they already do. Then, may I ask, who will be left to educate our future business, political, and community leaders? <<<
This is another spurious argument. I work in tech where for years there was a brain drain as business sought reduced costs by outsourcing work to cheaper labor markets. Compared with pre-Y2k, engineering and IT is dead in the US university system. Yet, we are starting to see a resurgence as employers realize there is value-added to US labor, and in turn they are willing to spend the $ on labor here, which has reinvigorated the market turned the trend back. If there is a flight from teaching, then market forces will force salaries higher as demand for great educators is called for in a smaller labor pool. But lets deal with reality. When it comes to working in a place like Lawrence, there is a labor pool of many who would gladly seize the opportunity to work for the salaries listed. I can guarantee you that if you walk into any NYC public school classroom and offer to trade places, no one will turn you down.
When teachers talk about their work day,lets all remember they teach 5 periods a day for 39 weeks and get paid for that as their "yearly" salary. What is worse is that in the middle school another 5-10 days that is a full 1-2 weeks of instruction are lost as they mark state tests. Oceanside,a district where the average teacher makes a 70,000 dollar salary can afford to pay their teachers $50 an hour to mark the tests. Here it would cost 85 an hour for our teachers( who make an average of 78,000 a year) to mark the tests. Yet ,the teachers "need a raise" for the same work they currently do?
"When it comes to working in a place like Lawrence, there is a labor pool of many who would gladly seize the opportunity to work for the salaries listed."
Incorrect. Where do you get this stuff ?! I know 2 music teachers a science teacher who were offered positions in Lawrence and turned them down because of the lack of job security.
What teacher in their right mind would sign on to a school district where the surrounding community doesn't support them ?
BTW, there is a severe shortage of science and math teachers everywhere. The way teachers are looked upon is a disgrace ... who would want to go into teaching these days ?
Your notion is absurd.
"When teachers talk about their work day,lets all remember they teach 5 periods a day for 39 weeks and get paid for that as their "yearly" salary"
More skewed info. How about prep time ? How about time grading tests and papers ? How about time spent returning parent phone calls ? What about staff development meetings ? What about continuing education ? Oh, and they're required to give extra help before or after school. I'm not a teacher so if I missed anything, apologies to 'Lawrence Teacher'.
I have 1 child in a Day School and 2 in Lawrence. Let me tell you - the public school teachers work a heck of a lot more and care about what they are doing a heck of a lot more. They also have more respect for students and parents.
Believe me, I was shocked to discover this. Sorry. It's true, better education to be had in Lawrence. A lot of yeshiva parents know this - why else would a large group try to work something out so that their kids can be taught the secular subjects in the LAWRENCE schools?
Another thing that people are missing regarding "the product" is that we have an inordinate amount of "at risk" kids here. That is hardly the fault of the teachers and administrators at Lawrence. If you compare apples and apples you can't deny the economically advantaged students are doing as well or better than say, Jericho.
To the parent of the kid who graduated not knowing multiplication, I can only say shame on you for not getting her the special ed she needed. My middle and elementary school kids certainly know the multiplication tables.
Many many recent Lawrence graduates are attending the top universities in the country.
Sorry, you lose all credibility when you skew the facts or just make up whatever serves your purpose.
A lot of yeshiva parents know this - why else would a large group try to work something out so that their kids can be taught the secular subjects in the LAWRENCE schools?
Um..because then their kids secular education would be FREE? Or , rather, it would just cost them the taxes they are paying anyway.
This isn't about whether Lawrence teachers work hard or not. I didn't even bring that question up - and I'm sure that many Lawrence teachers do work hard. What I object to is that the present teacher's contract calls for a system of double raises, for every teacher, every year. That is way out of line with the raise schedule for any industry's workers which I've been informally polling.
To: fivetowneyes
"Teachers at Lawrence are apathetic, with the exception of a few."
How many of the hundreds of teachers that work for the district do you know that would qualify you to make such an absurd comment?
Because I am a lady, I will keep the rest of my comments to myself.
Lupa, the great thing about this post is that it shines a bright light on a topic that has been the subject of a lot of dubious assertions and generalizations. The contract is clear: the most recent schedule indicates that 6 figure salaries are paid to teachers with as little as 15-20 years experience (depending on education level) -- not "30 years". In addition, the starting salary for a teacher with a BA is over $44K. I can't think of too many other professions that offers that level of pay for new college graduates.
Not that we have the facts, let's use them as the starting point for discussion.
It's interesting. How come you never hear anyone screaming about the fact that Nassau County cops earn up to 90k after only five years on the job? They can retire after only 15 years of service, as well. Last I checked, they were paid with tax dollars as well. Point is, not to pick on cops, but people should look around at what other public sector employees earn before teachers are lambasted.
This conversation is so heading in the wrong direction. It isn't about whether the Lawrence teachyers are apathetic. It's about taxing Lawrence residents at a higher and higher rate to give teachers two raises a year. The elementary school on Cedarhurst Ave. is EMPTY. Why is no one addressing THAT? Sell the empty schools. Give them up already. Maybe then, we won't argue when the teachers want to negotiate another sweetheart deal. Because the money wont be coming right out of district taxpayers pockets.
FIVE TOWN EYES - Are the teachers that were caught having an affair still there ? Why don't we hire an indepenent firm to assess each teacher nad school etc.
TO ALL :
I would appreciate if someone could address my earlier questions which I will ask the candidates on Monday night.
I have an idea. How about we hire a corporate CEO for 300K a year to run the system like a company and cut out all the waste (excessive salary increases, empty buildings, etc, order new technology at reduced costs) and if we can shave the budget down to about 15K per student from 27K use the extra money to give everyone in the school district a free college education.
Saving 12K a year times 12 years min K-12 = 144K more than enough for a college education for ALL then disricts students.
The teachers can try to cloud the issues all they want. 15 paid sick days,three personal days,retiring after 25 years at over half of their highest pay, and teaching only 5 , 43 or 44 minute periods a day is a good deal. Add to this it is only for 184 days a year. Compare to the 220 days most others work. then, when the product, the most important product of student achievement is at some of the lowest levels of Nassau County the teachers complain about the kids. This is shameful.The teachers were aware of a mentoring program that has been in their contract for ten years. One period a week, with a student at the High School for the teachers there. Well, this has not been enforced for years. The teachers are paid their contracts, the administrators are given raises and extensions, the Board cries poverty and the contracts are not even enforced. Where is the indignation from the teachers or the system itself for the results of our children? The whole system is at fault. While crying poverty our reserves are going up two million dollars this year. While talking about how we have cut personnel the Board went from an 8 period to a nine period day at the Middle School. This is an increase in teacher time "hidden' by an increase in class size and a decrease in population. Reverse either and costs go up again. This year the bd.,while claiming it is fighting labor and asking for givebacks gave the Superintendent a raise without asking for more on his medical insurance. They voted a 5000 increase to an Asst. Superintendent that was leaving in two months. yet, where are the candidates on these issues?. We need to hear from the candidates. Rizzo and Brooks seem to support the Bd. and call for a vote of confidence with a budget that is going up by 5.3% in spite of Number One School,money that is supposed to come from Albany and a two million raise in reserve funds generated after everything from last year. By the way,the two million doesnot count another 3.5 million mentioned by the Supt. at the lawrence Association. Anyway, at least Rizzo and Brooks have taken the stand supporting the tax increase and the BD. We need to hear from Hatten and Kaufman. i am looking for positions and ideas.
if we elect any candidate without knowledge of where they stand on the teachers contract then shame on us.
I can not believe that anyone would compare a police officer to a teacher? Can someone post their contract? officers risk their lives and work a heck of a lot more than 184 days a year where they teach 5 out of 8 or 9 periods.Besides,the officers in nassau County do a spectacular job. If the results in Lawrence equalled the results of our officers in Nassau County I do not think anyone would complain. Our Middle School is in the bottom 6 Schools in Nassau (last years results) but we have one of the highest paid teacher groups in the Country or County. Do not compare this to our Police Officers.
To anonymous about how much teachers teach.Teachers do not teach 5 periods a day 39 weeks a year.Both in the Middle SCHOOL and in the High School they get weeks off for Regents and to mark state tests. This amounts to at least an extra 10-15 days where our children are not being taught but the teachers are paid anyway. No one says that is not the job,but when they complain about salary and how hard they work the facts need to be known. Besides, no one has talked about tenure. Imagine being told that when you are twenty five or so and have worked less than three years in a job,short of gross negligence you can essentially have that job for life. Does anyone think that is a good incentive to keep working to be "at the top of your game?
In New york City they are giving a bonus for Math,Science and Special Ed teachers. Seems this is where a shortage is. It makes good sense to allow ourselves to address the areas of shortage and pay other areas at market rate. It certainly is notas hard to get Elementary teachers as it is to get Math and Science teachers.There seem to be alot of inequities in the teacher contract. Should the Bd. continue to pay the President of the teachers union? Do they pay the head of the custodial union or the Lawrence Administrators Union? Do they pay them all the same amount or percentage to be head of their Unions or do they only pay the president of the teachers union ? Is it true he gets full pay but only works 3 out of 8 or 9 periods for the District? If he is only working half time for the District has he gotten all of his sick days? By the way hyow many sick days are there in the system? If the average teacher has 100-125 accumulated sick days then is the District looking at a 5 million dollar bill? Is it true that the teachers in Hewlett are not paid for their sick days? This would amount to a savings of over 1/2 million dollars to 750,000 dollars a year in Lawrence if it is true.I also heard that Librarians in the School system work much less than their counterparts in the Peninsula Library system. I have heard they work more days, more hours and make about 40% less than their Lawrence counterparts. How much does the Librarian in the Kindergarten School make? How much do the Lawrence Librarians make? I would like someone who knows the answers to post.If i am right maybe that is why the Library budgets pass while the School Budgets are defeated.
No one seems to get it. This is a democracy and the teachers have their contract because the Bd.,all of them elected,gave it to them. If you do not like your taxes,our children's results or the teachers contract you have to speak up,get involved or at least vote. There was a spirited debate at the Lawrence Association. Seems the Superintendent wants us to pass the budget and says some of the contracts are "rich" but that is the tradition of the district.If that is so are the candidates in favor of the tradition or do they want change. Who are the candidates? What do they stand for?One of them works for a municipal government. One is a lawyer. What are their qualifications?Do any have any experience in Public Education? I have been told that one of them is actively involved with secondary schools and is on some NYS commissions having to do with Education. All of this needs to come out before the election. Who is for what and how will they vote. Remember,previous BDs. voted for the contracts yesterday that brought us into the position we are in today.But Bds. are made up of individuals. WE NEED TO KNOW WHERE EACH CANDIDATE STANDS AND HOW THEY WILL VOTE
To the blogger that said teachers have to grade and prep. First of all professionals take work home and besides, maybe if teachers worked a full day(8:30 to 4:30) they could use the extra hour to grade and prep. Instead, the teachers who stay from 3:30 to 4:30 get extra compensation and lots of it. I understand that the people at the schools are letting Brooks and Rizzo have flyers put on cars during school events. Now I understand why they call themselves the public school candidates,the employees are for them. I guess we know where they stand on contracts. Last nite,someone who went to the Girls nite told me that by the time they got there which was late, the cars in the parking lot at the High School all had flyers for Rizzo and Brooks, "the public school candidates" on them. Same old "Save Our Schools" slogan that Licatesi ran on. There were guards directing traffic so they had to see the flyers distributed but it happened anyway. Draw your own conclusions.
Lawrence Teacher, you're very easy to read. You take the same, old, tired banter that Steve Clements has tried (and failed with) for several years. There are some very simple reasons why the district is "failing" and why signs of a passed budget are far from attainable.
1. The district tried to whitewash over the financial scandal of its past administration. The board (a then 7-person "public" school board) hired a superintendent and made him the top paid in NY State. They then sat back and took a blind eye, allowing him to spend all of the district's reserve funds in violation of the law. The so-called "audit" conducted by the state never looked at 1998-2001, when the money was wasted. It looked at subsequent years, after the disaster occured and that superintendent took off to Texas....avoiding the controversy. Maybe if the community siles a lawsuit against the superintendent and board at the time to recoup the $18 million.....
2. The LTA has refused ANY efforts to implement performance-based merit raises. Many schools systems across the country have implemented such programs, even using peer-reveiews to ensure objectivity. Provided the measurements and goals are fair (i.e. not allowing 40% of the freshman class to fail 1 or more classes), I know I don't mind paying MORE for the good teachers (12-15% increases) while the lackluster ones send to sit in the curriculum office and personnel and shuffle papers (because no one would dare place them in the classroom) would see a 0% increase.
3. Get rid of some of the stupid perks. If a teahcer is actually sick, regardless of the time, let that be covered. But sick time is there to protect the worker in case of real problems, not a "cash bank" to get an extra $30-40k out of the schools.
4. Renewable tenure....and renwable licenses. Scary that a hairdresser has more continuing education requirements from NY State than a public school teacher
The list goes on and on.....but the LTA is partially to blame. The schools used to speak about serving the needs of ALL children. Yet, groups continue to make reference that they support the "public school" candidates and students. The more LTA decides to play politics and not try to serve as a bridge between the communities, the more this will affect them.
Remember how hard it was last time to get a contract? You'll look back at that one as the "Good 'Ol Days"
When you talk about Clements remember his policy to the teachers was something like "do not ever volunteer because it will hurt the LTA bargaining position." The LTA re-elects him year after year and the PTA supports him.The problem starts there.
I read your website with interest. If the teachers want to be compared to the Police then they should work like they do. Why do the teachers get off for every snow day even when it is not an emergency. They are being paid for the time and can come in and do some of the prep and grading work they always complain about.A true snow emergency is something else,but why should a teacher get off every time a child does?
I love how the teachers think the evil "private school" community is creating this fight. Remember the 1990s when the entire Board consisted of 'public school" community? There was more in-fighting, screaming and accusations going on than ever. You hired and fired superintendents like a revolving door, faught publicly at board meetings and got into name-calling battles with the LTA.
Who wants to go back to that childish behavior. Obviously, the "public school" community needs to do some learning of their own.
To anonymous about how much teachers teach.Teachers do not teach 5 periods a day 39 weeks a year.Both in the Middle SCHOOL and in the High School they get weeks off for Regents and to mark state tests. This amounts to at least an extra 10-15 days where our children are not being taught but the teachers are paid anyway.
WEEKS? Where? If the test is given on Monday they have 6 hours to mark all their exams before they have to proctor again. If you are going to make a statement make sure you have your facts straight. Plus, they have to mark the papers of the our students in the Yeshiva's because some of the Yeshiva's for some reason don't administer the test. Have we heard them complain about that?
This is that US and THEM thing again. We only see if OUR way.
Constantly voting down the budget will lead to a curb of teacher's salaries. Just like the board will learn, eventually, that they need to be more efficient with their money, the union will learn that their contract can't include exhorbitant raises. The voters just won't approve.
no it won't it hurts the students and it will effect the services provide to the orthodox community
But what is to be done about Pemberley?
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