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Thursday, July 20, 2006

I Spoke Too Soon...

Looks like I spoke too soon when I said the whole "War Theodicy" meme wasn't catching on. Just last night, OrthoDad said to me: "How long until someone blames the war on the gay parade in Yerushalayim?" I actually chided him for his show of cynicism. But a day later, we have an answer to his question: Not very long at all.

From JPost:
Hizbullah's ongoing attacks on Israel and the war in northern Israel are the result of the planned international gay pride parade in Jerusalem next month and Israel's inadequate response against the controversial event, a senior Israeli Rabbi said Wednesday.

"We have not protested enough against this parade of abomination and therefore we have received this warning," warned Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch, the head of the extremist Eda Haredit rabbinic court, in a hand-written message to his followers. "Who knows where things will get to if we do not act further and more stringently against it."



Blogger DAG said...

Uh oh

12:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aside from the usual "we dont why things happen" - i dont see why this is any less of an issue than the other things the Gedolei Yisroel are saying - such as Shabbos, Tznius, etc

This is certainly a thought that crossed my mind.

Also, notice how he didnt say its bc of the parade. Its bc "We have not protested enough against this parade "- blaming his/our own community

1:42 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Aside from the usual "we dont why things happen" - i dont see why this is any less of an issue than the other things the Gedolei Yisroel are saying - such as Shabbos, Tznius, etc

The whole attitude I object to is sscribing certain outcomes to certain sins. The difference between this and the letter from Ravs Steinman and Elyashiv is that in their letter, they made it very clear that they don;t know what the cause for the tragedy is. They called for improvement in certain arenas - but never said that deficiencies in those arenas caused the war. This latest example is saying that due to a lack of protest on the part of the community, we received the punishment of war. That is a huge diference.

1:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is something about this that is highly revolting, only marginally less than the fallout from Katrina...

Honestly, I don't know if I've ever been so embarrassed to be a Jew then when Rav. Ovadiah Yosef spilled his vitriol so publicly and enthusiastically over New Orlean's "blacks".

Your previous post did show, at least what I think, is the proper response. I can respect a religious opinion that is not mine when put in a .... well, positive light - things that may be done. But when I start seeing religious figures blaming tragedy on some people or some acts as a sign of God's wrath I start feeling rather... irked.

1:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I read this point on your blog before...here it is Anonymous at 7:37pm on your post on Thursday, July 13, 2006 with the title "I Was Wrong"

...but with a twist "Maybe we're being punished for not protesting loud enough about the gay parade week in Jerusalem this August."

2:45 AM  
Blogger Pragmatician said...

Maybe if someone had shown some zoolatry and killed one of the organisers of the parade, we'd be at peace now…
The fact that that would’ve created a major Chilul H’Ashem is of course irrelevant.

5:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe if someone had shown some zoolatry and killed one of the organisers of the parade, we'd be at peace now…
The fact that that would’ve created a major Chilul H’Ashem is of course irrelevant.

And they would have had a parade anyway... AND they'd have a martyr to boot.

7:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(I wrote about this on the last thread) you’re confusing "theodicy" and one possible explanation under theodicy.

Your belief that "We are not omniscient as to God's ways." is equally theodic(al) as sayings that “god is punishing bad deeds.” So it makes little sense for you to write things like:

"Longtime readers of my blog may be aware of my utter distaste for attempts at theodicy in the wake of disaster. We saw it last summer after the disengagement, and we saw it after Hurricane Katrina. We hear about theodicy from both Rabbis and laymen."

when you yourself are espousing theodic ideas.

9:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

neturiekartanik said it on your blog last week, you should pay more attention to you comments.

10:10 AM  
Blogger ggggg said...

The people that have "all the answers" usually haven't a clue!

10:13 AM  
Blogger thekvetcher said...


12:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have the wrong name. It's not Tehodicy but Theo-idiocy.

2:24 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

The event is still on as of today, according to their internet site http://www.worldpride.net.

Much of the Orthodox Zionist community welcomes support from evangelical Christians who do everything they can to convert Jews to their religion; I just don't see how this could be considered anywhere near as bad -- especially when they are considering coming DURING A WAR when even frum Jews are bailing out on the next El Al flight.

2:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was wondering why it was that the bloggers here could be so certain that Rav Shternbuch is wrong.

Yes, I realize that he's very Charedi and realize that what he has to say makes us uncomfortable ("A warning to us, because we did not protest the parade more strongly"), but how is it that the commentators here are so certain that their grasp of Jewish concepts and their grasp of G-d's ways is superior to his?

Why can't you respectfully disagree, rather than treat him as if he understood less about these things than all of you o?

Just asking

7:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's no "proof." Neither he nor I nor anyone can be proved right or wrong.

But to me the death and war and fallout of such... far outweighs the sin of a parade in Jerusalem, gay or otherwise.

The morality I understand in God would find it repugnant, and so do I.

Is he right? Am I? I don't know. But I'm still absolutely disgusted.

But I imagine, the Rav and I disagree on many aspects of many things.. and most of which I respectfully disagree with him about.

Theodicy is dangerous. And yes, us being offended is theodicy, too. But it gets rather subjective, really, and just like I'm not willing to let someone steal my computer because they think it's right or they think it's right... I'm not willing to let anyone who claims to speak for Jews or Judaism stand up and say something like that without me, from whatever little perch I may have, yelling in opposition.


8:48 PM  
Blogger pisgam said...

I guess you would refer to our holy amoraim as theodicious as well! inasmuch as they associated the churban bayis on sinas chinom
and the LACK OF EMUNAS CHACHOMIM. In fact the Torah reuires us to be introspective when calamities befall us, this is referred to in chazal as pishpush b'maasim. With your attitude which is borderline KEFIRAH, you should call youself

1:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that the war is a result of the Skverer rebbe stealing 32,000,000 for his yeshivah and rabbi Shternbuch not protesting it, and Rabbi Shteinman visiting the Skeverer Ganif for a tish.
Its also caused by the terrile poverty being forced on the orthodox in israel by the culture of "work is bad, welfare begging, panhandling are good" and the endless bizayon hatorah caused by this, with the perception that to be orthodox is to be a recipient of alms
so there!

8:25 AM  
Blogger Looking Forward said...

it is up to us to introspect our own deeds, not those of others.

even for the rabbis of today.

the rabbi's of the gemoras day where a whole different breed, and also attributing such things to lack of ahavas yisroel is just a little different than attributing it to tznius, or other specific events.

ahavas yisroel is very general for one, it's regarded my many as the "klal gadol betorah" and is a reasonable assumption that most things that happen have some relationship to it. it also is a much more productive thing to encourage people to be introspective about their ahavas yisroel and ahavas brios, and generaly it can only lead to a greater good.

saying it's because of tznius, for instance is being very narrow in your blame, and furthermore you risk making many women very frusturated at the continual obsession with tznius. tznius is not always a good thing to work on and there are limits, and there is a point where you have done enough. Ahavas yisroel on the other hand is something that has no limit.

furthermore scince the sages of the gemoras day (and they where different) said that the sin for which the bais hamikdash was destroyed and we where put in exile was sinas chinam (or otherwise a lack of ahavas yisroel and ahavas brios) it is reasonable to say that the only (ONLY) reason we are still in exile is lack of ahavas yisroel. therefore it is a far far better thing to kneejerk blame than anything else (and there is quite legit support for it)

that said you shouldn't blame it exclusively and should remember that that isn't necessarily right.

8:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

J’lem gay parade called off due to war

Open House announces cancellation of parade, which was scheduled for August 10, but says other gay pride events will take place as planned. ‘We are determined to fight for our right to march in Jerusalem this year,’ organization’s director says

9:41 PM  
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