5TJT on GG
The Five Towns Jewish Times has a comprehensive article on the Gourmet Glatt situation. There are a few interesting new tidbits in the piece.
1) I wondered about the two concessions that have recently opened up in Gourmet Glatt - Korn's Bakery and Ossie's Fish Market, both originally from Brooklyn. The article gives us some information as to their fate:
3. Yours truly gets a mention:
4. Gourmet Glatt put a full-page ad into the same edition of the 5TJT:
Being very incisive, I picked up on the thinly veiled reference to the anonymous commenters in the blogosphere who have been less than charitable to the players in this drama:
I do think that this point is a bit disingenuous:
More of this as it comes, people.
1) I wondered about the two concessions that have recently opened up in Gourmet Glatt - Korn's Bakery and Ossie's Fish Market, both originally from Brooklyn. The article gives us some information as to their fate:
An added dimension to this latest event is that two concessions—that are, in effect independent businesses—have been sorely impacted by the Vaad’s move.Though I would be inclined to have sympathy to these victims who seemed to have just stepped into a mess that they had no idea was in their path, Rabbi Ginzberg, the Rav of Chofetz Chaim Torah Center in Cedarhurst, is quoted in the article saying something quite interesting:
Ossie’s Fish, which functions in Brooklyn with three hashgachos (OU, Star-K, and Rav Yechiel Babad) maintained a fourth hashgachah in Cedarhurst with the Five Towns Vaad. Ossie’s owner, Robbie Schonfeld, had decided not to open on Sunday until his relationship with the Vaad HaKashrus could be clarified, although Ossie’s itself is well-supervised and is only physically located in Gourmet Glatt. Korn’s Bake Shop, on the other hand, decided to open as scheduled on Sunday morning and has remained open. At press time, a solution to the Ossie’s problem was being worked on, whereby all work on fresh fish would be done in Brooklyn and sold already packaged at their concession in Gourmet Glatt with Five Towns Vaad approval. Some of those involved said that no such plan had been proposed.
As for the situation with Ossie’s and Korn’s bakery, Rabbi Ginzberg related that at the time that both companies opened their concessions in Gourmet Glatt they were told that there may be a problem in the near future with the hashgachah and that they should take that fact into consideration before opening. That assertion could not be corroborated by the parties involved, and, as of Wednesday evening, the Ossie’s Fish department at Gourmet Glatt was not open for business.2) Speaking of having the impression that someone had just stepped into it, I think that is how most people viewed the actions of Rabbi Kravitz, the new Rav Hamachshir employed by Gourmet Glatt. However, this quote belies that:
On the issue of the new hashgachah at the store, Rabbi Ginzberg said that the group feels that by coming into a community with an organized and efficient vaad hashgachah, Rabbi Kravitz has “demonstrated a blatant lack of respect for the rabbinical leadership as well as for the community.”Though Rabbi Ginzberg's asessment may seem harsh, I am sure he did not make it lightly, and I am quite sure it is warranted.
3. Yours truly gets a mention:
While there is at this point in time a great deal of uncertainty about how the situation will ultimately be resolved, the sentiment on some blogs has been somewhere between wild and out of control. One observer commented that the way people are behaving on one blog in particular—the Orthomom blog—seems to be “emotionally perverse.” The words with which the integrity of some of our kashrus personalities and rabbinical leaders are being vilified is beneath the dignity of any civilized community. On Tuesday night, the blog master at Orthomom asked those submitting comments to tone down the rhetoric or be subject to having comments censored.Not flattering, but I'll take it. I guess.
4. Gourmet Glatt put a full-page ad into the same edition of the 5TJT:
Being very incisive, I picked up on the thinly veiled reference to the anonymous commenters in the blogosphere who have been less than charitable to the players in this drama:An Open Request to the Community:We get it.
To the entire community:
Gourmet Glatt would like to take this opportunity to thank all of our dear friends and supporters in the community. While we appreciate the support, we firmly request that no Loshon Hora be spoken about anyone - in our name and for that matter in anyone's name (including anonymous).
I do think that this point is a bit disingenuous:
An Open Letter to the Vaad and our esteemed Rabbis:Though I can appreciate the sentiments expressed in this letter, I do not appreciate its "open" nature. It's one thing to present a letter to the public that is open, as that would be the only way to reach all of Gourmet Glatt's customers, past and present. But in terms of a letter to the Vaad - why does it have to public? The Vaad, as well as the various local Rabbanim who serve on it, all have addresses and phone numbers. This request could just as easily have been extended to them in a private fashion, and for some reason that was not done. This leads me to believe that this plea for some sort of rapprochement (which I think we all can agree seems a but late in the game) is more about PR than about peacemaking with the Vaad.
To the Vaad Harabonim:
We at Gourmet Glatt want to express our sincere regrets at the present situation. Yes, we added a new Certification. However we never intended to create any rift. We were merely doing our best to ward off rumors and provide our customers with the best possible products. Gourmet Glatt would like to take this opportunity to humbly ask of you to please let us know if there is anything we can do to be recertified.
More of this as it comes, people.
posted by orthomom at 8:43 PM
173 Comments:
community. While we appreciate the support, we firmly request that no Loshon Hora be spoken about anyone - in our name and for that matter in anyone's name (including anonymous).
We get it.
I do think that this point is a bit disingenuous
Agree
GG's only hope is by exposure on the blog-if there really is something to expose.
The way to find out who was really behind the Vaad's move to undo Gourmet Glatt is to see WHO DIDN'T SIGN IT. That, and only that, is a clear indication who is behind it all. The Vaad administration was wrong to allow the one who is really pulling all the strings to remain anonymous. If you have any doubts, get your Rav alone and ask him. If your Rav respects you, he'll tell you.
I noticed today a glowing letter by Rabbi Weiner of KIS(a Independent Kashruth overseer) dated 10/31/06 commending the outstanding Kashruth @ GG? Does anybody know of Rabbi Weiner?
This is not a kashrus scandal .It is a rabbi scandal.These rabbis through their arrogance and incompetence have caused a major chillul hashem and harmed the community.
um, that sounds pretty arrogant too
1. Actuallly they have been contacting the VAAD through various avenues privately.
2. Both Korns and Ossies claim they were not notified by the VAAD prior to investing in the store.
If you doubt this, it is as simple as a phone call to find out for yourselves.
Well we are still rehashing the same old things:
We are not happy with the VAAD
We are not happy about not being happy with the VAAD
We are not happy that GG took a new hashgacha
We are not happy that GG is empty and losing business
We are not happy that this beautiful and clean store is going to waste
We are not happy with the L"H and yet we keep going at it
We would like the community to reunite yet we keep insulting each other
There are more and more rumors being spread, yet the VAAD said they refuse to speak about it. Where is all this information coming from?
Is there any way for this to be resolved? GG has put in an ad in this weeks 5T paper asking for this to stop, basically apologizing and asking if there is a way to be recertified.
I am begging the Rabbonim of this community to come together again to find an alternate solution to heal the neighborhood and pull us all back together. I am begging the Rabbonim of the neighborhood to find a way to stop the chilul Hashem that is happening here, and believe me a speach from the Bimah is not going to do it, too many people have been hurt, being told to stop is not going to make it happen. There is too many aveiros happening every single second with the L"H and rechilus compounding day by day.
I am begging the Rabbonim to consider a way to reconsider their extremely harsh consequence of ordering the store sold, and figure out a way to recertify the store and bring peace to the community once again. The Bollenders have already suffered the humiliation the VAAD intended, they suffered a loss of income, and they unfortunately have also already have suffered a loss of health.
But we as a community have suffered as well. We have been humiliated publicly, we are fighting with our friends and even within our homes between spouses and with our children and siblings.
This has gone way beyond and way past where the VAAD thought the punishment would fall. I am quite sure that the VAAD felt that they were teaching the family a lesson and it would be a lesson to any establishment that would dare stand up against the VAAD. However, I don't believe in my heart, that any RAV thought that it would destroy the community or that it would start a wild fire such as it did. I am sure that they did not expect a mud slinging campaign trying to vilify the credibility, respectability or reputation of either Rabbi Eisen, Rabbi Reisman or Rabbi Kravitz.
I am quite sure that they didn't expect people to start a mini-war between the Five Towns and Far Rockaway, and I am quite sure that they didn't expect the surge of Loshon Horah, Motzi Shem Rah and Richilus that has been the norm rather than the exeption in town, even in the sanctity of the shuls.
I have sent an email to some Rabbonim begging to reconsider certifying the store on a trial basis while at the same time finding a more "reasonable" consequence for the main sibling that they felt was not cooperating with the VAAD. I suggested that they do what Yeshivas do and suspend him from the store for a six month periiod in return for recertification for a six month trial period. If all goes well for that six month period, they can keep recertifying the store.
Again, I am quite sure that the Bollenders, according to their ad, are quite willing to work something out with the VAAD. I am also quite sure that the community would applaud the VAAD for bringing this situation to a more palitable conclusion
maybe he should go in the corner
This stuff is too funny. These guys are adults and brought this on themselves. They've done very well for many years, and they'd probably do fine selling the business and moving on to something else.
There may be a difference of opinion among people commenting on this blog, but out there in the real world, this unified action by rabbis is probably one of the most impressive showings of achdus that any large orthodox community has ever seen.
I think I'm generally sensitive and caring about other people, but in this case, I can't bring myself to feel that bad for the owners of the store. For heaven's sake, they're not on the street and they have options.
Your a very generous kind hearted individual. I hope that in the event that you make a mistake or your business propositions fail you, the people around you are as generous and kindhearted as you are. Its nice to know that ahavas yisroel still exists, especially in the months of Elul, preparation for Slicha and mechila, Tishrei - Teshuva, and Chesvan the beginning of the year with our slates wiped clean.
Kudos!!
They didn't lose the hechsher for making a mistake. They lost if for being uncooperative. That being the case, it's pretty silly to suggest that the vaad should forgive and forget.
Anyway, why can't they just move on and this won't be an issue any longer?
Uncooperative has nothing to do with Kashruth. The Emes will prevail!
whose idea was taking away the hashgacha anyway? The Vaad? An outside rabbinic consultant?
uncooperative has to do with hashgacha on the store not kashrus. When there are many violations and the mashgichim do not feel comfortable in the store or are afraid of the owner it merits removing the hashgacha.
The emes will prevail? The Emes has prevailed whic is why (although I disagree with removing the hashgacha) the hashgacha was removed. The owner has been outted for the typoe of person he is and the fact that people are staying away from the store proves that people trustthe Vaad's decesion. The point was not to scare the owner the point was to finally punish him for his trickery, deceit and pushing the envelope. He wants another chance (see above) have it but don't come crying years after your first offense.
I have freinds in Miami who have told me that one of the first things rabbi Kravitz tried to do in Miami was to get rid of all other hashgochos. The rationale being that kashrus in a community is the responsibility of the community's rabbonim and one united kashrus organization that is supported by the local rabbonim will be able to enforce the standards that they deem appropriate for their community.
For him to come into a community that had such a structure and disrupt it is disingenuos.And when he claims that it is common practice he knows that this is not true in communities where there is a strong local vaad.
There should always be a preference for a kashrus organizationw which is answerable to a group of people (i.e., OU, CRC, KAJ, commmunity vaads) over a kashrus organization privately owned by one or more individuals. Because on some level, the individually owned hashkacha are money-driven just as much as any storeowner.
I would also think that the large privately owned hashkachas are better than the small privately owned hashkachas which tend to have less of an infrastructure in place for checks and balances.
They didn't lose the hechsher for making a mistake. They lost if for being uncooperative. That being the case, it's pretty silly to suggest that the vaad should forgive and forget.
All this is still speculation and L"H, because not even one VAAD mashgiach was asked to bear witness or give testimony to the facts, which is a little too "uncomfortable" to me. Why is it that the mashgichim who are constantly present in the store and "see everything" and "sign for every single item that comes into the store" are not even asked to come in before the Rabbonim and testify?
Who exactly is being uncooperative if the Rabbonim refused to accept the fact that the VAAD themselves has accountability for every item that has been signed into the store by their own mashgichim?
Stop being so judgmental and harsh. There are always two sides to a story, check your Gemarah again!! And that is why I am saying that there can be an amiable resolution to this problem.
The mistake was a "personal" conflict between the parties and not a Kashrus issue. It was a battle of wills and wits, and for that there is regret and for that a family should not be forced out of business. The VAAD has already proven that they are stronger than the store for the time being, why cause more damage. But if the Bollenders which to wait it out, I am sure that business will pick up, so why not try to work something out right now.
Hashem is generous and forgiving to all of us, and since there was never a Kashrus issues, as Rabbi Eisen himself stated in public, as did all the Rabbonim, how about you and the rest of the VAAD defenders, stop causing more trouble and let the Rabbonim think it over and see if enough is enough and they are willing to find a more happy conclusion.
"Stop being so judgmental and harsh. There are always two sides to a story, check your Gemarah again!!"
I think I'm going to assume that my rabbi checked the gemmorah at some point. Not to say that rabbis are infallible. But don't tell me to check my gemmorah because a couple of unobservant and unlearned profess that all of our rabbis should be second-guessed.
The only happy conclusion is for the troublemakers to move on, and there's no doubt that they'll profit nicely at the same time.
Can someone tell me who pays Rabbi Pincus? I just saw him at Gourmet Glatt checking the chopped meat.
who cares?
"The mistake was a "personal" conflict between the parties and not a Kashrus issue. It was a battle of wills and wits"
Hardly, the Bolenders were warned time and again-they met with 4 local rabbis with their attorney present and still this happened.
But they apologized now
So why can't we all just move on?
Yeah, these poor yidden need a break - don't our rabbonim have a heart for that?
Then again, apologies are in - Who hasn't seen that apology letter from the Monsey butcher
to anon 12:25
beautifully put--
wha?
But don't tell me to check my gemmorah because a couple of unobservant and unlearned profess that all of our rabbis should be second-guessed.
Many of those on the blogosphere are more knowledgeable than "our rabbis". Some are musmachim-who since they are professors don't seem it appropriate to call themselves Rabbis.
Observant? who knows no one of us are bochen kliyot valev.
Second guessed-it frankly is a question of hashkafa-genrally a fault line runs down the middle of 5T's and Rockaway on this issue.
BTW before the neighborhood became more chareidi and black hat-I did not see nearly as many people walking out openly before "Rabbis" speak in schul.
See Jewish Press pat couple of weeks the neighborhood has become more "frum" but is it more "ehrlich" has Yirat elokim increased among our laity and Rabbis in the past few decades?
Or is it "rak ein yirat elokim bamakon..."
Which lay people in the neighborhood are greater talmidie chachamim thatn Rabbi Brown, Rabbi FOrst, Rabi Kailish, Rabbi Feitman... or for that matter the "younger generation" of rabbis. As so many have pointed out, this isn't Lakewood. A professor with semicha or a lawyer who is koveia itim does not put one on the caliber of a rosh hayeshiva. Are we too ignorant to know the difference between a ben torah and a talmid chacham?!
is there any difference between this and an owner of a store under the Vaad who commits adultery, theft etc..?
"Many of those on the blogosphere are more knowledgeable than "our rabbis". Some are musmachim-who since they are professors don't seem it appropriate to call themselves Rabbis."
Maybe we could change the name of this blog to the lamed vov forum, since it's flooded with comments from people more knowledgeable in halacha and who (anonymously) profess they are bigger tzadikim than 97% of the rabbonim in the 5 towns and far rockaway.
an owner who commits personal crimes is not causing anybody else to sin. one who is fundamentally dishonest is wronging others and at risk of doing more damage in the future.
If someone here has the responsibility of overseeing the community's kashrus and has tended to the GG issues over the years firsthand, please let us know who you are and why you're more qualified than the rabbonim. Otherwise, you're nothing more than a front for the Bolender's (who are suddenly apologetic now that they're beginnning to feel in their pockets).
I just have 2 points I would like to make on this isse:
First, do any of the anti-Vaad camp ever second guess the Vaad's decision TO GIVE a hechser on a local establishment or do you only second guess when it is inconvenient for you?
Second, for those who continue to trust the owners of Gourmet Glatt and beleive they are getting a bum rap, why does the Vaad's hechsher make a difference to you? You will continue to shop at the store as you obviously trust the owners. Why not let those who feel that the owners are no longer trustworthy or that the Vaad has made a good faith determination that it cannot in good conscience continue to provide a hechsher on the store be allowed to shop elsewhere. I do not understand why the Vaad's imprimatur is vital to you? You have obviously decided that you know better than the Vaad and the local rabbanim (which may be the case), so why are you hung up on the hechsher. BY all means continue to shop!
the anti-Vaad camp ever second guess the Vaad's decision TO GIVE a hechser on a local establishment
It shouldn't be the Vaads decision-they should have clear standards that EVERYONE must follow. If one follows the standards-which should be public BTW-one can get hashgacha otherwise not.
since it's flooded with comments from people more knowledgeable in halacha and who (anonymously) profess they are bigger tzadikim than 97% of the rabbonim in the 5 towns and far rockaway
I didn't say they I was a bigger talmid chacham but I did say "Many of those on the blogosphere are more knowledgeable than "our rabbis". Some are musmachim-who since they are professors don't seem it appropriate to call themselves Rabbis"
Many for example- for those who list their names see Hirhurim and certainly one who comments regualry is a bigger talmid chacham than anyone in the area. he would object to being talked about it that way-because he is an academic-but others are also clearly atalmedei chachamim and big ones.
Interesting question do you believe Rabbonim are bigger Zaddikim or are they just more knowledgeable in general?
Why stop shopping there?
because they have made it as though if I shop there I am going against Daas Torah etc.. and some people may then not eat in my home!
Thought question-do you bleieve that a baal baas that has a dispute with a local Yeshiva or a gadol hador could win a din torah before any beis din-or a beis din of local Rabbis?
made it as though if I shop there I am going against Daas Torah etc..
maybe time for one the great minds who blogs and wrote a seminal article about Daas Torah a quarter century ago to comment on Rabbinic authority in the abstract-he doesn't live in the area anymore and hasn'tfor decades-but an abstract discussion about authority of Rabbanut could be enlightening.
Are we too ignorant to know the difference between a ben torah and a talmid chacham?!
Does a talmid chacham automatically have a chazakah of Glatt Yosher. Maybe we should worry much more about Glatt Yosher than Glatt Kosher.
I hope local Rabbonim are interested in Glatt Yosher and treated everyone alike-even if they are not big supporters of their mosdos
Its amazing how Compassionate at the pulput and in the letters they posted in shul or mailed to us the rabbis of our community are on this non kashrus issue (if it was about kashrus the Vaad would have immediately closed GG down).
Where is the same compassion for the tuition issue facing our community today. Has any rabbi spoke up against the constant tuition increases and charges? Spoke up with this compassion about the kids in our community being forced to attend public schools for lack of financial resources to pay for Yeshiva? I can only agree with the consensus that this is a Vaad power play to protect their monopoly over our neighborhood. May we hope cooler heads prevail and the Vaad doesn't succeed.
Has any rabbi spoke up against the constant tuition increases and charges?
Of course not...they don't pay full tuition!
"It shouldn't be the Vaads decision-they should have clear standards that EVERYONE must follow. If one follows the standards-which should be public BTW-one can get hashgacha otherwise not.
1:55 PM "
No doubt some criteria is entirely objective but when giving a hashgocho the Vaad must consider subjective matters as well, such as can the owner be trusted!
I hope whoever makes assumptions about how much tuition the rabbis pay is a rabbi or a school board member. Otherwise I don't know how you would know who pays full tuition.
Besides, rabbinic expertise is not what is needed to solve the tuition crisis. Despite the high tuitions teachers are not making a great deal of money, and even school administrators are making not much more than "a living" in this neighborhood. Obviously, the solution is not a simple one, and rabbis signing a letter will not solve the problem. These two issues are totally unrelated and neither reflects on a lack of compassion on behalf of the rabbis.
I hope whoever makes assumptions about how much tuition the rabbis pay is a rabbi or a school board member. Otherwise I don't know how you would know who pays full tuition.
You are right---I retract that post
No doubt some criteria is entirely objective but when giving a hashgocho the Vaad must consider subjective matters as well, such as can the owner be trusted!
Why subjective matters-if someone does not conform to standards they are not trustworthy of Vaad hashgacha otherwise we are not bochen kliyot valev.
and even school administrators are making not much more than "a living" in this neighborhood
Administrators make much more than the "median" income in the neighborhood. I did not say mean but median.
neither reflects on a lack of compassion on behalf of the rabbis
Show activities that show their compassion.
Was the mistake perhaps "mislabeling" items as one particular brand when they were another brand? This would be a problem and I am glad the 5TV did something.
Sitting in a movie theatre filled with more "frum" Jews than at my Rabbi's Shabbus Hagadol Drasha, and pondering the following question:
In all probablility, many of these people would not be caught dead shopping at GG. Yet, many of the Hot Channie's present, as well as the Floppy Hatters, are so provocatively dressed, that even the other HCs and FHs are getting aroused. Moreover, this is a rated "R" movie, with scenes so sexually charged, it makes the Hot Channie's look like Floppy Hatters.
So here's my question. Why do all these people listen robotically to their Rabbis on an issue which has the consequence of ruining a family's livlihood yet, on an issue of violation of many biblical violations with no consequence other to themselves, they totally disregard the views of the Torah?
Something doesn't add up here.
couple of unobservant and unlearned profess that all of our rabbis should be second-guessed.
The only happy conclusion is for the troublemakers to move on, and there's no doubt that they'll profit nicely at the same time.
WOW, YOU COULD BE A ROSH YESHIVA, THROWING PEOPLE OUT!!!!
It is cute how you got that little dig in about their level or lack thereof of observance. How do you know if they are learned or not. Again, quite judgmental, wow this town has really changed.
Let's review your comments:
unobservant
unlearned
troublemakers
And I guess if they move away it would Taka be a happy conclusion for YOU with all of your OPINIONS on them.
For us nonjudgmental people, we would not find that to be a happy conclusion.
Can someone tell me who pays Rabbi Pincus? I just saw him at Gourmet Glatt checking the chopped meat.
GG does, he was left up in the air, the VAAD never pulled him off the job or even bothered to call him personally to give him any instructions. They just "forgot" about him.
who cares?
You've got to be kidding me!!! When Hashem created you he must have forgotten to give you a heart.
Hardly, the Bolenders were warned time and again-they met with 4 local rabbis with their attorney present and still this happened.
12:01 PM
Again, how would you know that? All these things are supposed to be confidential. That is why I am suspicious of the VAAD!
As far as I heard, they only took an attorney after this whole thing became public.
an owner who commits personal crimes is not causing anybody else to sin. one who is fundamentally dishonest is wronging others and at risk of doing more damage in the future.
Not one RAV said that they were fundamentally dishonest, so DON'T GO STARTING A NEW RUMOR!!!
an owner who commits personal crimes is not causing anybody else to sin
An owner who would commit "personal crimes" such as adultery might not make anyone else sin, except of course his partner in crime, but he is breaking the most intimate of commitments to his spouse, and if he could cheat on his spouse why would anyone trust him not to cheat them?
Be logical, if a person would lie to his own wife who he stood under the chupah with in front of Hashem, eidim, family and friends, then lie and humiliate her, what would keep him from stabbing you in the back?
If someone here has the responsibility of overseeing the community's kashrus and has tended to the GG issues over the years firsthand, please let us know who you are and why you're more qualified than the rabbonim. Otherwise, you're nothing more than a front for the Bolender's (who are suddenly apologetic now that they're beginnning to feel in their pocket
Well this is quite a good question. DID RABBI MOSHE CHAIT HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH GG AND THE BOLLENDERS THAT RABBI EISEN SEEMS TO HAVE? THAT WOULD BE A VERY GOOD STARTING AND REFERENCE POINT. Because if he did, there would be no question that this was going on for way too many years. If this has only been going on since Rabbi Eisen took over, then maybe GG has a valid complaint and we need to do more investigating into their side of the story.
Second, for those who continue to trust the owners of Gourmet Glatt and beleive they are getting a bum rap, why does the Vaad's hechsher make a difference to you? You will continue to shop at the store as you obviously trust the owners. Why not let those who feel that the owners are no longer trustworthy or that the Vaad has made a good faith determination that it cannot in good conscience continue to provide a hechsher on the store be allowed to shop elsewhere. I do not understand why the Vaad's imprimatur is vital to you? You have obviously decided that you know better than the Vaad and the local rabbanim (which may be the case), so why are you hung up on the hechsher. BY all means continue to shop!
Because we don't want the Rabbonim to feel that we are disrespecting THEM by shopping at the store. We don't want the RABBONIM to feel that we are choosing sides because we made a decision on our own. WE DO respect the RABBONIM in the community but we do not agree with the MONOPOLY created by the VAAD and we are not happy with the VAAD's decision, especially because if they were thinking of such a harsh conclusion they should have spoken to witnesses to all the facts brought in by Rabbi Eisen, meaning his own mashgichim, which they didn't do.
So we would like to see something worked out between GG and the VAAD to a happy conclusion, which at this time, most people feel can be accomplished. And since it was never a matter of KASHRUS, just stubborness, it shouldn't be a problem to work something out.
The biggest problem right now, is people who are so judgmental and out for revenge or "blood". They are so busy having to be "right" and justified that they cannot see a compromise. This is very sad, because as Jews we have been taught about Teshuva and compromising for the sake of Shalom Bayis, and it can be applied to many different situations.
If everyone could just put yourselves in the other people's shoes...if you can't chas v'shalom see yourselves being "these people" well maybe see your neighbors, or a cousin. Wouldn't you want the community or the Rebbeim to find a way to restore things back to a civilized manner? Something that everyone can be satisfied with and everyone can walk away a winner and no one a loser?
I just don't understand why you are all being so cruel and hungry for revenge. I think most of it is coming from non-customers on non-happy former customers and your thirst for revenge is showing. But it isn't right and it isn't the Yiddish way and that makes me very dissappointed in all of us as a community.
I absolutey cannot accept all of these "they are not observant" "they ar not learned" "they are not...." No matter how many times Orthomom, or others on this blog beg that the L"H stops, you just can't help yourselves. We just asked Hashem to forgive us for doing just what you are doing here, and you keep on doing it non-stop.
Some of us keep asking to help find a way work things out, and others keep saying "run them out of town". It almost sounds like the "sanigor" and "katigor" on Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur battling to Hashem whether or not to forgive us and let us have a nother healthy and succesful year.
You would think that coming out of the Yamim Noraim, we might have kept the spirit going just a little while longer.
How very sad for all of us!
such as can the owner be trusted!
With what????
Was the mistake perhaps "mislabeling" items as one particular brand when they were another brand? This would be a problem and I am glad the 5TV did something.
9:16 PM
Kashrus Pro,
Firstly Rabbi Eisen himself said "mistakes Happen", secondly, he did not provide proof that the chicken came from GG, no receipt and no lable. GG never saw the chicken he was talking about.
If someone said they bought damaged or spoiled goods from your store, wouldn't you ask to prove it by showing it to you? Maybe there was never a chicken at all or maybe it was bought in Brachs or Supersol or even in Brooklyn. How could anyone know if Rabbi Eisen never produced it.
GG cannot admit to it, if they were not permitted to see it for themselves.
Dear anon 9:44,
You are brilliant, can you imagine if the Rabbonim stood up and said "Boycott the movies it is TREIF!"
Each one would get fired from their jobs. Thanks for putting things into perspective!
I am curious what if anything various Rabbis in the 5T's have said to their schuls since the Vaad letter to GG-its been 2 Shabbosim. Apparently R. Moshe Weinberger of Aish wrote that store should be boycotted-who has agreed with him-who just stated Vaad withdrew hashgacha-who hasn't stated anything.
My Rabbi who "signed" the letter-has not stated anything in schul about the affair the past 2 weeks.
apparently he has told at least two people-two have told my wife that he OK'd their continuibng to shop there who asked him privately that they can continue to shop at GG.
Two weeks earlier at annual appeal for Vaad he was not shy to state that one can eat everyplace the Vaad supervises. Since the GG withdrawal he has been silent.
such as can the owner be trusted!
With what????
No owner can be trusted-Adam chaviv al mamono-that is why we have the hashgacha business.
Second, for those who continue to trust the owners of Gourmet Glatt and beleive they are getting a bum rap, why does the Vaad's hechsher make a difference to you
Unless buying fresh meat and chickens-ie. not in manufactureres packages I don't care about store hashgacha-manufactured goods in original packaging I can buy inStop and Shop and Key Food etc.
Well now that's a thought. Maybe we should boycott all the VAAD stores until they work something out with GG.
Was that Rabbi Billet in the third row at Barat tonight? He was ROTFWL during the hotel wrestling scene.
On second thought, he's "out-of-town," so it couldn't possibly have been him.
(As an aside, thinking about the world's perception of Jews based on this hilarious movie, a good start to combatting anti-semiticm would be to recognize that -- on some level -- we all contribute to the general sentiment we ALL saw at that movie tonight. The Jew Run scene reminded me of the Rabbinic bravado in this community.
Oh, I almost forgot, that popcorn with NO HECHSHER at all was awesome. But then again, if you're willing to attend the movie, the popcorn is the least of your halachic problems.)
There seem to be a lot of people here who are in contact with the store owners. Can anyone tell us what they intend to do now?
There seem to be a lot of people here who are in contact with the store owners. Can anyone tell us what they intend to do now?
The reason for the controversy is not GG's conduct-it is the Rabbanims contact. I don't care less about the owners of Brachs, GG,etcthey are all trying to make a profit-we are almost dealing with a zero sum game between them-yeah Supersol and packaged goods could be brought anywhere. The issue is the Rabbis behavior in this case proper? To paraphrase a recent Jewish Press issue : Is the behavior "frum"? Is the behavior "ehrlich"? Clearly if the whole "community" thought the behavior of the Rabbis was "ehrlich" no one would go shopping at GG. Thus the issue is why at least the "perception" by many that their behavior is not "ehrlich"?
That is the issue
You are brilliant, can you imagine if the Rabbonim stood up and said "Boycott the movies it is TREIF!"
Each one would get fired from their jobs. Thanks for putting things into perspective
They would be respected if people thought that they were consistent and decisions would not be based on WHO asks the question. To take an example of two institutions at almosr opposite ends of the 5T community. Does anyone believe that they could win a din Torah against either Darchei or South Shore? A fortiori against Rabbi Kaminetsky or Rabbi Bender?
-I have no disputes with either, to the extent I have had dealings with either they have been pleasant. But the issue is one of lack of trust that Rabbonim would do the correct decision if it was against one of their own or certainly against their self interest.
The Jewish Star article quotes Mark Bolender as saying "I pray for shalom bayis."
Has his wife sided with the vaad?
I think the whole CG episode is related to tznius. WE are in a tznius crisis in in 5TLnad.
Anon 9:44....How was Borat? Thanks for the review on the Hot Chanies fashion show. Now, how about a review of the movie?!?
Went to GG this morning with wife-a few chareidi shoppers-vast majority were not.
Told my wife prices are higher than Brach's how can they survive-there are certainly those in community who care about the Vaad or are fearful of being blacklisted by being seen there. On the other hand heard in schul Shabbos a couple of women apparently said they should only buy at GG.
Parking lot was pretty full in front of GG this morning.
Borat Review from JoBlo:
An extremely funny yet offensive movie that will likely have certain parties up in arms, including actual Kazakhstanis (who are apparently fighting against the release of the movie), Jewish people, women and pretty much anyone else who’s offended by male nudity, inappropriate sexual insinuations and behavior, and the making fun of other cultures. Personally, I thought much of it was very humorous, including a bunch of laugh-out loud funny scenes, but at the same time, I didn’t think that it worked entirely as a “movie”. For anyone who doesn’t know the background of the lead character in this film, played by actor Sasha Baron Cohen (he’s Jewish in real-life, by the way), he’s an ongoing character on his TV show, along with his more popular alter-persona, Ali G. Part of Borat’s appeal is that he’s so ignorant of American culture, that he can say and do the most outrageous things in front of actual people (who aren’t “in on the joke”) and get away with it because most Americans are polite and try to teach him about his wrongdoings, rather than tell him off for being an asshole, idiot or racist. Well, not everyone, of course…some people do actually get upset and that’s what makes for some of the comedy in this film. The problem with this concept is that it’s very funny as a 5-minute skit on his TV show (or a series of sketches), as it doesn’t expect us to buy into his character throughout a manufactured plotline, but in this film, he’s combining a “fake story” about Borat traveling across America with actual undercover footage of him acting dumb with real people.
The latter stuff is hilarious, as per his show, but then we’re left with Borat and his side-kick “acting” by themselves and that just felt…“off”. I’m not sure if this will bother others, but I simply couldn’t get past it, especially since a few other characters were also “acting”, so it wasn’t fun to sit through those scenes since they kept me wondering about what was real and what wasn’t. For example, at some point, the dumb-dumb duo accidentally stay at a bed & breakfast place with a nice Jewish couple as the home-owners. They act all freaked out in front of the couple (because they’re anti-Semites), but were the Jewish couple in on it? Not sure. They see the camera and everything, don’t they? That sort of stuff took me “out of the movie” every now and again, but like I said before, the obvious “real” footage with regular Americans was so over-the-top, nasty and funny, that I couldn’t help but laugh real hard whenever that stuff came rolling around again. Also, one “acting” scene between the two men was about as funny a thing as I’ve seen on the big screen this year, as they literally got naked and rolled around in bed together, fighting about something or another. Borat’s buddy, who must be over 350 pounds rolls onto Borat’s face, and at some point, we see his balls resting on Cohen’s chin. The audience was in tears throughout this entire sequence and I was right there with them. The problem is that the entire scenario is so f***ed up that I would be surprised if it stuck around for the Americanized version of this film.
In the end, I think your enjoyment of this movie will depend on your own tolerance of this sort of stuff, and whether or not you already know and enjoy the character of Borat in the first place. Also, it’s something to watch….on weed!!! As for the anti-Semitic stuff, I’ll be interested to see if the Jewish groups will be “up in arms” about this movie, since some of it is really, really bad – and even though the writer/actor is Jewish himself, that might not make a difference.
I could care less about the movie but it is interesting to note that the same people who would listen to their RAV and boycott GG, would knowing full well,that their RAV would absolutely asser them to go to a movie with "nudity", if they would allow them to go to any movie at all, and they would go against their RAV because it is convenient in that instance for them to do that.
How much of a big deal is it to give up going to the movies? Pleasee, you are such hypocrites telling us that WE MUST RESPECT THE KEHILLAH AND GO BY THEIR VERDICT ON GG, and yet you have no problem going against the the edicts of the Rabbonim when it comes to movies and TV and probably a hundred other business ethics questions.
GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES!
I guess you cannot eat the popcorn at the theater, because it not under the VAAD!?!
The last time I tried to order popcorn in a theater (a very long time ago), I specifically said "No Butter". The attendant put on butter anyway. When I reminded her "No Butter", she took the entire package with the butter and dumped back with the freshly made popcorn. So nope, no popcorn in a thearter.
But a good question would be about coffeee?
Great point, 1:44pm, but you could have save yourself time by simply copying and 9:44pm into the comment box.
You are all missing the point. This is about image, not Judaism.
It is acceptable to do many haclachically forbidden acts within many "frum" communities and, therefore, we all (most) do those things without giving a second thought (beach clubs, miami pools, movies, concerts, inappropriate interaction between married men and women, etc.).
It is not, however, "heimish" to be seen in a food establishment that the Rabbonim have "banned," even though -- arguably -- your actions may be justifiable on the grounds of saving someone's paranasa. I guess, though, the typical image Jew would respond that Sasha Baron Cohen needs a parnasa too and that by attending his movie, the entire Five Towns community did a great mitzvah last night.
To sum it up:
Sasha Baron Cohen performing a lude double digit act on a 350 pound man: Socially acceptable in the frum community.
Bollender being Uncooperative: Yimach Shimo Vizichro.
Bollender: Uncooperative
www.jewberry.com
I agree with rhe blogger, who said that the Vaad should try to work out a compromise with GG on a trial basis. The community suffers economically when there is only one game in town. When this occurs, we end up paying higher prices for Kosher meat. I don't think it is realistic to expect GG to be sold because they will receive very little value for the business at this point. THe Vaad should think of the impact that not having a second major butcher will have on our community.
Did you look @ the prices of meat @ Brachs this week. The price of chopped meat and chicken breasts rose .50 per pound compared to prior weeks.
Did you look @ the prices of meat @ Brachs this week. The price of chopped meat and chicken breasts rose .50 per pound compared to prior weeks.
hogwash
Not that it necessarily relates to the ongoing discussion here, but I'm a bit curious - Do the Bolender's keep kosher themselves?
Great point, 1:44pm, but you could have save yourself time by simply copying and 9:44pm into the comment box.
Thanks for pointing that out, but everyone has repeated everything at least a hundred times, this needed to be said more than once as well. Sorry if I stepped on your toes or didn't give you credit for your blog.
Not that it necessarily relates to the ongoing discussion here, but I'm a bit curious - Do the Bolender's keep kosher themselves?
Good Question, more L"H for us to chew on. What business is it of yours or anyone's for that matter. Orthomom that is one question that she have been "bleeped out".
Isn't it fair to consider that someone who doesn't keep kosher may not have as great an appreciation for kashrus and kosher standards, as someone who only eats kosher?
Isn't it fair to consider that someone who doesn't keep kosher may not have as great an appreciation for kashrus and kosher standards, as someone who only eats kosher?
11:07 PM
No it would be fair to assume that the assinign accusations against this family has gone so far as to not only accuse them of not being Shomer shabbos, implying that all 4 siblings and their families are equally non observant, but now that that L"H is dying down, this new juicy tidbit is starting up.
How could you all be so self-centered and cruel? Do you honestly believe that the children of a Jewish butcher are going to leave their own meat on the shelf and go out and eat someone else's treif meat? Give me a break, shame on all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!
We can thank all the Rabbonim for the extent of the damage this has done. THIS WAS NOT THEIR INTENT. THIS IS JUST THE RESULT OF WHAT THEY UNLEASHED!!
If you would ask your RAV if you had the right to accuse this family of either being non observant or being a treif eating family I am sure he would sit you down and have a long talk with you about the Chofetz Chaim and what he said about L"H.
Don't you think you are grasping at straws and just trying to kick up the dust once more. Have you all not poked enough holes into these families personally? ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Give it a rest, would you want anyone speaking about you or your family the way you are speaking about them? Be a Jew and have some decency. Hashem is the only judge and he will conduct his own inquiry after 120, so please just leave it to him.
If you don't want to shop there that is your business but please stop this witchunt against this family, you are killing them. If you want to know anything that is really pertinent, call them up, or better yet don't hide behind the phone, walk into the store and ask them. THEY DON'T BITE, UNLIKE MANY OF YOU.
Isn't it fair to consider that someone who doesn't keep kosher may not have as great an appreciation for kashrus and kosher standards, as someone who only eats kosher?
11:07 PM
NO!!!. we rely on hashgachot-as one who knows a little about kahrut scandals over the decades-quite often they are from owners who are "otherwise frum". they believe they know more than hashgacha-thus try and cut the most corners and frankly if cut-they can claim "mistake" much more easily and get let off-especially if they support some crucial local mosdos.
Isn't it fair to consider that someone who doesn't keep kosher may not have as great an appreciation for kashrus and kosher standards, as someone who only eats kosher?
11:07 PM
NO!!!. we rely on hashgachot-as one who knows a little about kahrut scandals over the decades-quite often they are from owners who are "otherwise frum". they believe they know more than hashgacha-thus try and cut the most corners and frankly if cut-they can claim "mistake" much more easily and get let off-especially if they support some crucial local mosdos.
There's no denying that seemingly "frum" and "ehrlich "people have been caught with serious kashrut violations, but most kosher storeowners are "frum," so it serves to reason that the majority of scandals have occured with seemingly frum storeowners. Still, halacha dictates that shomrei torah u'mitzvot be accorded certain chazakot that unobservant individuals are not accorded.
Furthermore, even without the halachic ramifications, one would logically trust a person who observes kashrut, and seemingly is more G-d fearing in his or her observance of kashrut and is "answering to the Higher Authority" in addition to the rabbis, more so than one who doesn't observe kashrut, and is only responding to rabbinic directives for business purposes.
one would logically trust a person who observes kashrut, and seemingly is more G-d fearing in his or her observance of kashrut and is "answering to the Higher Authority" in addition to the rabbis, more so than one who doesn't observe kashrut, and is only responding to rabbinic directives for business purposes.
Sounds nice in theory but factually that is not how things work out. Kashrut violations from Monsey storekeeper ever hear of intentional ones from Heinz-supervised by OU since 1923! Reason Heinz knows if they fool around they are out-but your local frummie knows that he can get his Rav to support him. This has always been the case from when a major catering takeout place in Far Rock was supported by his Rabbi because of his valuable membership.
Does one sadly think that kiyyum of "frum" mitzvot-makes one more honest one could probably have a minyan in Otisville-(Fed Prison not far from Port Jervis with a lot of NYC area fraud prisoners)
I hope the Rabbis are God fearing and would rule by halacha not on basis of friendship and who can benefit them the most.
I heard Rabbi Flaum of the White Shul indicated that the boycott was lifted on GG except for purchase of fresh meats and chickens.
Still, halacha dictates that shomrei torah u'mitzvot be accorded certain chazakot that unobservant individuals are not accorded.
Please state right here and now where we can all find and look up that HALACHA, and how that applies to this story, so we are all on the same page as you!
Also I want to know if there was anything written to whether that applied to Jews before the holocaust the same way as after the holocaust. Because there were the frumest of the frum who went into the war that came out totally non-observant, and those who were totally non-observant that came out frumer than ther frumest.
So check your history books and ask your parents, if they are still alive.
Furthermore, even without the halachic ramifications, one would logically trust a person who observes kashrut, and seemingly is more G-d fearing in his or her observance of kashrut and is "answering to the Higher Authority" in addition to the rabbis, more so than one who doesn't observe kashrut, and is only responding to rabbinic directives for business purposes.
This is true but things are RARELY AS THEY SEEM. And I don't recall any investigation, not that there had to be, because it wasn't necessary to determine as with any other establishment in the area, whether or not the owners were indeed Shomer Shabbos or not. So I personally saw a letter from Rabbi Paltiel of Port Washington which stated that Chaim Bollender was in fact Shomer Shabbos. So it actually hurts me to keep reading and hearing these rumors that the "OWNER's" are not SS. And knowing that Rabbi Ashkenazy is also an owner, this must hurt him tremendously as well.
Now I admit that I did not ask for more verification from each sibling, but after I checked out one of them, I felt it would be further and unnecessary humiliation to keep asking the question. But if you have dobuts why don't you, as the other blogger suggested, go into the store and ask instead of speculating. As an individual consumer you have a right to know, if it is that important to you, and not for the sake of "spreading information" but for the sake of your own knowledge.
Otherwise you are just a busybody, looking to find fault in other people. When the VAAD wanted to place this info about SS owners on their VAAD certification there was a huge uproar in the community and it was nixed immediately. If that was the case WE AS A COMMUNITY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO BRING THIS ISSUE UP AT THIS TIME!!!!!
Futhermore, if you are going to discuss if the GG owners are SS or not, you should list all the non-observant owners right here on this list just to be fair. And how about the achte goyim that we frequent and chalash to get into? Can you think of a bigger antisemite than a frenchman, yet we continue to throw our money at Philipe Lajuene the owner of La Mare in Manhattan. Who hasn't eaten or still doesn't eat there?
Would you stop eating there because he is a "goy" and all he wants is Jewish bucks$$$$?
I'm surprised that no one mentioned going to the theater, ever hear of "KOL ISHA"? Do you think that our young people or even our other affluent men would stop going to the theater with their wives because the Rabbonim said "NO"?
And did anyone notice how much hair our young women who happen to be tznius in dress (although those collars are a little risque) have been taking out lately to blend with their sheitel or fall lately, how many of you VAAD, or listen to your RAV supporters are coming home to tell your wives that the Rabbi always told you that only 2 fingers (if that much) was allowed to show.
You are all hypocrites in your own way and it is sad that you are all willing to throw stones. Why don't you admit that YOU ALL do what is convenient for you and you or your spouses "choose" and make the choices that fit your family best.
I just got back from GG.There were 3 customers in the store.3 cashiers.
Tell the rabbis LO TAAMOD AL DAAM REYECHA also applies to them.
This is true but things are RARELY AS THEY SEEM. And I don't recall any investigation, not that there had to be, because it wasn't necessary to determine as with any other establishment in the area, whether or not the owners were indeed Shomer Shabbos or not. So I personally saw a letter from Rabbi Paltiel of Port Washington which stated that Chaim Bollender was in fact Shomer Shabbos. So it actually hurts me to keep reading and hearing these rumors that the "OWNER's" are not SS. And knowing that Rabbi Ashkenazy is also an owner, this must hurt him tremendously as well.
THAT'S IT! I'VE HAD IT! I'M GOING INTO THE STORE AND I'M GOING ASK THE BOLENDERS IF THEY ARE SHOMER SHABBOS AND KASHRUS!
That ought to put the issues to rest :-)
Are they shomer shabbos or kosher? How about if they wear shatnes? Someone should check if the shukle fast enough when they daven….
This has nothing to do with whether the food in their store is kosher. That should be the ONLY issue. This is the same game that the FR Vaad tried to play when they merged with the 5T Vaad. Public outcry put a stop to this nonsense.
Makes me wonder how many of you hypocrites can stand up to this type of public scrutiny.
I certainly wouldn't trust them to check my clothing for shatnes if they didn't observe shatnes themselves.
It's hard to draw a parallel to davening. I guess I wouldn't want them to daven for the amud in my shul if they're generally not observant.
HEY ABOUT CALLING RABBI PALTIEL OF CHABAD TO VERIFY ALL THIS SHAYLES.
Dear 5 Town Rabbis,
You have turned the 5 Towns into the loshon horah capital of the world.
I can now take a long deserved vacation.Thank you for doing my work.I couldn't have done a better job.
Sincerely Yours
SATAN
"one would logically trust a person who observes kashrut, and seemingly is more G-d fearing in his or her observance of kashrut and is "answering to the Higher Authority" in addition to the rabbis, more so than one who doesn't observe kashrut, and is only responding to rabbinic directives for business purposes."
This is truly one of the most ridiculous theories posted here and that's saying something.
Let's suppose there are non-shomer shabbos owners who have been given hashgacha. They make an investment in a store. They do well. They buy a house, have kids, send their kids to school, buy a nice car and take vacations all because they have the support of a community who supports the stores under that hashgacha. They've built up the business and now it's worth a few hundred thousand dollars. They've got 10-20 employees all working hard and supporting their own families, and they've taken out college loans for their kids. But, since they're not shomer shabbat people feel they might not be so trustworthy because they don't have the fear of hashem in their hearts. HOW ABOUT THE FEAR OF LOSING EVERYTHING THEY'VE WORKED FOR ALL THEIR LIVES. NOT IN 120 YEARS BUT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW, OUT OF BUSINESS. KAPUT.
Thw fear of hashem is a wonderful thing, keeps people on the right path. But the fear of bankruptcy and humiliation, for those who have no fear of hashem, well, that's got to be right up there.
Fear is a wonderus thing.
It is a shame that since we walked out of shul healthy Motzei Yom Kippur we have forgotten to fear the Wrath of Hashem...did we all forget that we are not "anon" in his eyes, he sees, hears, and knows who we are and what we are up to!!!!!
yup!!! movies, theater, sheitels, taxes, etc., etc, etc.
I would feel more comfortable relying on a person with the fear of Hashem and the fear of losing his/her business, than I would relying on a person who only has one of the two fears. Is that illogical?
Just one more thing, we and our Rabbonim are deluding ourselves if we think this is kept quietly here in our own community. This whole situation is so shameful, humiliating and harmful to our whole existence.
I just did a search on blogger.com to find this site and "orthomom" is very popular. Many other blogger sites follow her threads and comment on them on their sites. We have been discussed among many communities.
How do we all feel about that? We are famous in our "busha"! Thank you VAAD, for making us another Flatbush and Monsey!
Isn't it convenient we have the Vaad and the Rabbonim to blame for our actions?
"we and our Rabbonim are deluding ourselves if we think this is kept quietly here in our own community."
An issue that must be raised is the judgement of the Rabbis-assuming arguendo that ALL are local Rabbonim are pure, have no ulterior motives, and only have shem shamayim in their actions-how did they miscalculate so badly.
The reason Rabbanus is a lonely field they don't get honest feedback from baale batim-it just is not worth it for a baal baas to tell the truth to a Rav when he is miscalculating-you'll get language like chutzpah and worse thrown at you. Thus, since they do not get honest feedback-except maybe from their wives-who if they grew up in a Rabbinic household also lived asheltered life-no one was there to warn them what are you doing acting like you are from a pragmatic reason.
Isn't it convenient we have the Vaad and the Rabbonim to blame for our actions?
Well who started this divisive action-especially the attempt to boycott GG. The Rabbis have a right if GG violated clear standards- that other stores ALSO must meet -to take away their hashgacha. But they had no legitimate reason to try and boycott GG. It appears BTW the boycott was not mentioned by too many Rabbonim. Many just treated the incident factually the Vaad withdrew its supervision end of story.
I would feel more comfortable relying on a person with the fear of Hashem and the fear of losing his/her business, than I would relying on a person who only has one of the two fears. Is that illogical?
Sadly with all the emphasis of decorum and none on yosher-is it logical? NO-if one thionks that Glatt Kosher is the only thing that counts as well as other "Glatt" chumros-and no one cares about honesty. Does anyone count how many mosdos have had major contributions from people who have served time?
Notwithstanding Bolender’s letter in the FTJT this past week, here’s a solution that would satisfy many in this community and which, in any event, many Vaad Rabbonim have privately expressed as the opinion that should have been conveyed to the community in the first instance.
Some of the Rabbis overstepped their authority by calling for a “boycott.” The list includes Rabbi Billet, Rabbi Hain and Rabbi Feitman (and possibly others). My humble opinion is that the Vaad should issue a follow-up letter clearly indicating that their Hashgacha withdrawal was just that - and nothing more. Here’s a draft:
Dear Community:
This letter will serve to clarify certain ambiguities caused by individual Rabbonim acting in an unauthorized capacity as an extension of the Vaad.
To be chrystal clear, the Vaad withdrew its Hashgacha from GG at 4pm on Friday, October _, 2006. From and after such time, we cannot opine as to the Kashrus standards maintained at GG - one way or another. Optimally, for myriad reasons (which reasons are motivated by both kashrus-standards and financial concerns), our desire is to maintain a unified Kashrus authority in our community and not permit other individuals or organizations to issue Hashgochos to our local food establishments.
That said, we understand that we cannot unilaterally impose our will on the community, particularly in respect of a matter which is outside the scope of our role as Kashrus administrators and Rabbinical leaders, and particularly when doing so is at the expense of the livelihood of other human beings. We cannot dictate to you where you can and cannot purchase edibles without a reasonable basis on which to base such ruling.
We caution you, however, to be diligent in determining where to purchase food and where to eat. This includes food establishments under the Vaad Hashgacha – no individual or organization is perfect. We hope the following guidelines are helpful in this regard:
(a) If a food establishment does not display a Kashrus certification, we hereby decree that - as a matter of Halacha - you may not eat in such establishment;
(b) If a food establishment possesses a valid Vaad Kashrus certification, we hereby confirm that the undersigned have unanimously ruled that you may eat or shop at such establishment without the need to conduct further personal due diligence;
(c) If a food establishment possesses a valid Kashrus certification which is not a Vaad certification, we hereby rule that it is incumbent upon each and every individual to fully investigate whether or not such certification is reliable, in the same manner which you would investigate a Kashrus certification if traveling to a destination at which you have no Kashrus knowledge or familiarity. This obligation to diligently investigate may include speaking to your Rabbi or one of the members of the Vaad (or anyone else you trust for Kashrus matters), and the Vaad will be glad to assist in offering you a complete and unbiased assessment of the Hashgacha in question.
If you have any concerns about any particular Rav Hamachshir, local or otherwise, please do not hesitate to contact us at (516) ***-****.
Finally, we apologize if any individual “boycott Psak” was conveyed as the opinion of the Vaad; that was not, is not and will never be our view as a general matter, unless we have a reasonable Kashrus-based basis to believe that a particular Hashgacha is unreliable.
"Well who started this divisive action"
The Vaad and GG and the Rabbonim might have started whatever they started but they didn't start the stuff I've read here. As a non-othodox Jew I think you all should be ashamed of yourselves. You're supposed to be a cut above, or so I was taught. Most of you might be observant, but the majority of you do not appear to be religious.
Defending Rabbonim is not inconsistent with religion. Defending a family who has lost their parnasa is not inconsistent with religion. Criticizing either side is inconsistent with religion. At least your hones when you say you are not religious.
I would have had no problem with the Vaad if they had written aq letter similar to the Dear Commmunity of the 823 PM Post.
For legalistic reasons I doubt any Vaad as a Vaad would ever write this sentence: " and the Vaad will be glad to assist in offering you a complete and unbiased assessment of the Hashgacha in question. "
But the hashkafa is excellent for 823.
and the Vaad will be glad to assist in offering you a complete and unbiased assessment of the Hashgacha in question.
"unbiased", please, give me a break. The Rabbonim said in no uncertain terms that "Rabbi Kravitz had no business coming here without getting permission first getting permission from them, or checking with the VAAD"
How does that make any sense, would the Rabbonim backing the VAAD, or part of the MONOPOLY, allow an outsider in under any circumstances, even if he were the "OU" himself? It would never happen.
However, I agree with you that the VAAD should offer an apology and work something out with GG and the community. Everything else in your sample document is quite fair. Everyone should check out the hashgacha of any store they patronize, but please don't advise us to ask the VAAD's opinion.
Isn't it convenient we have the Vaad and the Rabbonim to blame for our actions?
No one is blaming them for our actions, only for not foreseeing that this would happen,or for not bringing it to an end!
The Vaad and GG and the Rabbonim might have started whatever they started but they didn't start the stuff I've read here. As a non-othodox Jew I think you all should be ashamed of yourselves. You're supposed to be a cut above, or so I was taught. Most of you might be observant, but the majority of you do not appear to be religious.
9:03 PM
Well, as an orthodox Jew, and one who really and truly has Ahavas Yisroel, I agree with you!
I just heard from one of my children that their RAV clarified that he never said that they cannot shop at GG, although he doesn't prefer that they do, it is their own choice what they do, but if they choose to do so, they should not purchase meat and chickens because the Rabbonim are angry that Rabbi Kravitz came in without asking permission from the community Rabbonim.
Take it anyway you see fit.
The way it is beggining to look to me is that slowly but surely people will find their way back to the store, and in all honestly it would be in the best interest of the VAAD to work something out with them now.
veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly
but surely
(scroll up - there was a 1 to 1 ratio of cashiers to customers in the store today)
8:23 PM great post.
The VAAD will never.... ever... do that. Look at what they said about bagel boss. "Don't eat there".
8:23 PM Wrote:
(a) If a food establishment does not display a Kashrus certification, we hereby decree that - as a matter of Halacha - you may not eat in such establishment;
Please give the source for this Halacha.
823 pm, that is the most ridiculous letter I have ever seen. The VAAD does not need to apologize for its actions nor does it have to answer to you, personally.
The VAAD DOES need to take into account the needs of the community as a whole--which no doubt it did when it revoked its hashgocho--in ensuring that appropriate standards of kashrus are adhered to by local establishments.
With the exception of a couple of whiny bloggers and associated commenters, the vast majority of the community support the VAAD and actually listen to their rabbonim when it comes to community-wide issues.
Obviously, no one can stop you from shopping at any particular store. So if you continue to trust the owners, by all means continue to shop at the store. Your personal views, however, do not--and cannot-- undermine the unity for which the VAAD stands.
So, can I buy groceries that I otherwise buy a keyfood at GG??
Regardless if you support the vaad's actions, you really don't do Rabbi Kravitz much justice by comparing his hechsher to the hechser on Bagel Boss.
Your personal views, however, do not--and cannot-- undermine the unity for which the VAAD stands.
11:02 AM
Since there was "NO VIOTE" nor no COMMUNITY WIDE meeting, just a bunch of baalebatim who got together and discussed this issue, put together the VAAD and made decisions for the ENTIRE community, you really do not have the right nor the true information to make that statement.
We really should have some kind of TOWN HALL MEETING if you want to know if "MOST" of the community stand behind the VAAD, or wishes the KEHILAH of Rabbonim making the decisions for them.
Otherwise, those who wish them to represent them, by all means should follow their rulings, and the rest should just give them the respect and courtesy due them as Rabbonim and continue going about living their lives.
But you have no right to ASSUME what the majority of the Community feel, or do, and you really don't know even the majority of the community. You proabably don't even know half or a quarter of the community.
All of these statements of knowledge are just merely guesses or guesstamates. You only really know what is going on with your friends, or at your shul or at your table. The ten or twenty people you know do not make up the whole or majority of the community.
So I am not saying to disrespect the VAAD, but they were not put into place by the MAJORITY of the community. There was no vote, there was no community wide meeting. It was just done, they are here, they are doing what some members of the community wanted them to do, they should be respected because they are Rabbonim and they mean well, but they are not the ultimate authority on Kashrus and they are not on the madreiga of G-d. They are only humans and they too, can make mistakes.
1206:
"Otherwise, those who wish them to represent them, by all means should follow their rulings, and the rest should just give them the respect and courtesy due them as Rabbonim and continue going about living their lives."
Don't all (or most) of the community Rabbanim belong to the VAAD? If that is the case, I assume they DO REPRESENT the community.
"The VAAD DOES need to take into account the needs of the community as a whole--which no doubt it did when it revoked its hashgocho"
What basis is for saying that they take in the needs of the community as a whole-and what does that mean majority of community, the most machmir of community, those who support the most mosdos?
"Since there was "NO VIOTE" nor no COMMUNITY WIDE meeting, just a bunch of baalebatim who got together and discussed this issue, put together the VAAD and made decisions for the ENTIRE community, you really do not have the right nor the true information to make that statement"
Agreed
"We really should have some kind of TOWN HALL MEETING if you want to know if "MOST" of the community stand behind the VAAD, or wishes the KEHILAH of Rabbonim making the decisions for them."
Why not hire the American Arbitration Association to run a ballot of members of schuls that support the Vaad-and find out is the Vaad out of touch?
"Don't all (or most) of the community Rabbanim belong to the VAAD? If that is the case, I assume they DO REPRESENT the community."
The second sentence doesn't necessarily follow from the first.
"they should be respected because they are Rabbonim"
a Rav or Rabbis should be respected if they have integrity ,knowledge and common sense.
1:02
""Don't all (or most) of the community Rabbanim belong to the VAAD? If that is the case, I assume they DO REPRESENT the community."
The second sentence doesn't necessarily follow from the first. "
Actually, it does. Lehavdil, like politicians, Rabbanim need to answer to their Kehillos. If the Rabbonim's kehillos were so outspoken and adamant about this issue, why would they have supported the revocation? Would any Rav jeapordize his relationship with his own kehilla over this issue?
"Don't all (or most) of the community Rabbanim belong to the VAAD? If that is the case, I assume they DO REPRESENT the community."
The second sentence doesn't necessarily follow from the first.
The fact that there are a few troublemakers here who don't respect the rabbis does not mean that the rabbis don't represent the community.
Lehavdil, like politicians, Rabbanim need to answer to their Kehillos.
So do Rabbis do what is right or what they believe will satisfy the people in power eg Kehillos
If the Rabbonim's kehillos were so outspoken and adamant about this issue,
maybe the Rabbis just miscalculated are out of step and thus didn't know the firestorm they were unleashing
why would they have supported the revocation? Would any Rav jeapordize his relationship with his own kehilla over this issue?
If he had integrity he would. A Rav should not just be another profit masimizer he should be one who is part of our mesorah-to the extent he has integrity he would go against his kehillot. Also rabbis in our neighborhood are more worried about looking behind their right shoulder than they are about their kehillot.
There is only Rabbi who left his schul in this community arguably involuntarily and he got another schul a few miles away. In that case the charges were related to true or not personal misconduct. In general Rabbis do not have to worry about their kehillot and THEY DON"T.
The fact that there are a few troublemakers here who don't respect the rabbis does not mean that the rabbis don't represent the community
without votes it is unclear how "few" the "troublemakers" are or are they people interested more in integrity than personal kavod.
It is certainly unclear how closely current Rabbis represent the community-assuming it is their job to do it.
Ok, so lets hold a community vote :-)
If there were more than a few troublemakers or the troublemakers weren't completely out of line, then there would be at least some rabbis in the community who would be swayed by them.
Can anyone name any rabbi who has caved under pressure from the troublemakers on this blog?
I regularly daven in 3 large community shuls and I have not heard any backlash at all from those kehillos regarding their Rabbis' stance on this issue.
I do believe that a couple of annonymous bloggers and some disgruntled commenters are the universe of naysayers.
And what about the 2 letters to the editor in the newspaper?
Can anyone name any rabbi who has caved under pressure from the troublemakers on this blog
There certainly have been Rabbis who are swayed by pressure from the wealthy. Excuse they support Yiddishkeit.
I regularly daven in 3 large community shuls and I have not heard any backlash at all from those kehillos regarding their Rabbis' stance on this issue.
Don't know what shuls you are talking about-but certainly has been discussed in my shul-where BTW the Rabbi hasn't said a word in shul publicly even announcing the Vaad decision wo comment. He did sign the Vaad letter. apparently- but at least 2 people have told my spouse that they asked him if they could still buy at GG-he apparently answered Yes.
Are you going to tell us which shul, to lend some credibility to the story?
-but certainly has been discussed in my shul-where BTW the Rabbi hasn't said a word in shul publicly even announcing the Vaad decision wo comment. He did sign the Vaad letter. apparently- but at least 2 people have told my spouse that they asked him if they could still buy at GG-he apparently answered Yes.
Are you going to tell us which shul, to lend some credibility to the story?
No-but I suspect it would apply to more than 1 schul. Anonymity is behind not disclosing more. I am aware that other people in my schul read orthomom regularly-they could mention it-hint there was an appeal for the Vaad on Yom Tov where the Rabbi very demonstrabely stated one can eat everything under Vaad hashgacha and how great the Vaad is etc-when GG was under attack-not a word since the Fri 4 PM letter
It will all be over soon with a nod and a wink and some trading of stock. Then we can move onto something really important, like, is turkey kosher on Thanksgiving?
Are you going to tell us which shul, to lend some credibility to the story?
No-but I suspect it would apply to more than 1 schul. Anonymity is behind not disclosing more. I am aware that other people in my schul read orthomom regularly-they could mention it-hint there was an appeal for the Vaad on Yom Tov where the Rabbi very demonstrabely stated one can eat everything under Vaad hashgacha and how great the Vaad is etc-when GG was under attack-not a word since the Fri 4 PM letter
But wouldn't it be nice for the Bolenders and the troublemakers here if they could rally behind at least one rabbi in the community?
the troublemakers here
Why is someone who vents their frustration a trouble maker?
Don't all (or most) of the community Rabbanim belong to the VAAD? If that is the case, I assume they DO REPRESENT the community.
Well you can't ASSUME anything, and UNLIKE politions, the VAAD was not voted in by the community!!!!
If the Rabbonim's kehillos were so outspoken and adamant about this issue, why would they have supported the revocation? Would any Rav jeapordize his relationship with his own kehilla over this issue?
Actually this is a lot of double talk. The Rabbonim where so "hot under the collar" no one in any kehillah was going to approach any RAV at the time. No one said that the people in the Kehillas agreed with the Rabbonim, that is why there were so many people venting right here on this blog.
The fact that there are a few troublemakers here who don't respect the rabbis does not mean that the rabbis don't represent the community.
Why is it if someone doesn't agree with you, they are considered "troublemakers" and are deemed "just a few". Grow up, you neither "own the community" nor "represent it". You can be consiered the very same "troublemaker" for causing conflict.
No one said to disrespect the Rabbonim. However, we are entitled to use our own intelligence that Hashem gave us, and if we did not ask the Rabbonim to represent us, nor did we ask the VAAD to form a MONOPOLY to take over, nor did we ask you to represent us or speak for us, then speak only for yourself and don't call anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking a "troublemaker". Grow up and understand that people can have differences of opinions.
Still only a few troublemakers here (and the nameless rabbi of the unidentified shul referenced above)
Well then lets make it a "few more troublemakers" count me in.
make that 4
and me
and me
and me
and count me in too
:-)
B"H
Great coupon and great deals at Gourmet Glatt this week.
I think its time to end the boycott in order to save some $ on groceries!
still cheaper at stop n shop
Maybe so, but the cashiers treat us like second class citizens.
I just came back from shul and spoke to some of the "chevra" at the table.
They were happy to "stand up and be counted". Kindly add 6 more troublemakers to the list.
Are we counting both sides? Because I just bumped into about 25 people in shul who are waiting for the store to be sold
Nope we are talking about the "troublemakers" as we were labeled so inappropriately here on the blog.
how inappropriate - maybe the rabbis are all troublemakers for sticking their noses into the community's kashrus
maybe the rabbis are gangsters!
look what they did to glatt yaught!
I think we should boycot the VAAD
I am sick of this! maybe I will get my meat at waldbaums
we need a good shevach-type butcher in town to defy the rabbis
how inappropriate - maybe the rabbis are all troublemakers for sticking their noses into the community's kashrus
4:31 PM
Listen, No one ever said that, they were asked to form the VAAD and they did that, but they were not asked by the ENTIRE community as some people seemed to claim on this blog.
Then others claimed that those who disagreed with them were troublemakers, that was inappropriate.
If you think you have a leg to stand on, disagreeing with all the rabbis in the community, why don't you come out in public and speak your mind instead of hiding here.
anon-12:27
You are really trying my patience. Why don't you? What are you still fighting about? Have you any idea how many Rabbis there really are in this community, before you bothered to make tht comment?
Do you really believe there are only 37 Rabbis in this community?
Can you stop waiving the red bull flag already before all of us troublemakers start a riot instead of a boycott?
SEA WORLD
FRESH FISH MARKET
Under Strict Supervision of Rabbi Avrohom Blumenkrantz &
Vaad Harabonim of the Five Towns
Known for Freshness, Quality & Kashrus
UH, 2 Hashgochos. Not a violation of the Vaad's contract?
I guess fish is more problematic than meat and needs a higher level of supervision.
Rabbi Blumenkrantz Was the rav hamachshir for Seaworld before the merger.the vaad actually moved in on his parnossa.It was agreed between him and the vaad that he would remain.
this has nothing at all to do with the current situation.
You are really trying my patience. Why don't you? What are you still fighting about? Have you any idea how many Rabbis there really are in this community, before you bothered to make tht comment?
This discussion really is insane. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but when you criticize the first ever unanimous decision by every rabbi in the community, you've clearly crossed the line.
Unless you can come up with some rabbinic authority to support your views, you are either a Bolender or an apikores.
Rabbi Blumenkrantz Was the rav hamachshir for Seaworld before the merger.the vaad actually moved in on his parnossa.It was agreed between him and the vaad that he would remain.
this has nothing at all to do with the current situation.
THIS IS A VERY HYPOCRITICAL STATEMENT!!
This discussion really is insane. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but when you criticize the first ever unanimous decision by every rabbi in the community, you've clearly crossed the line.
Unless you can come up with some rabbinic authority to support your views, you are either a Bolender or an apikores.
Again, are you having problems with the English language or are you not capable of English comprehension? Maybe its selective reading. "but when you criticize the first ever unanimous decision by every rabbi in the community, you've clearly crossed the line." I have not criticized the first ever uananimous decision by every rabbi in the community, because there are much more than 37 Rabbonim in the community so I haven't crossed the line.
However, the insanity of your marks put you way over the line.
Without knowing who YOU are, it's hard to say that YOU'VE criticized the rabbis. But that has been the theme of many commenters here.
why didnt you mention the article by Rabbi Chatzenoff and the letter to the editor by rabbi willig.
both came out against what rabbi ginzber wrote week before.
Rabbi Willig?
from where?
Wasn't rabbi chatzinoff signed onto the letter with all the other rabbis?
Did he change his mind in the article?
It really doesn't matter what the Rabbonim wrote or spoke about in the heat of the moment at the time. What really matters is what they are doing about it today.
Today they have put together a peace proposal, which is a workable solution. Whether or not it is put into effect is in the hands of RYE and his egotistical and expensive attorney. The more his attorney fights it, he is accumulating billable hours, which will eventually come out of the Kehilla's pockets.
In addition, as stated before, if RYE does not comply with what the Rabbonim have agreed to, it will be clear who has been uncooperative and spiteful all along.
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