GG Updates
Interesting update on the Gourmet Glatt situation from the Jewish Star in two write-ups.
The first, a front-page article, discusses the impact the decreased patronage of GG has had on businesses in close proximity to the store. Apparently, many of the stores around the supermarket have always benefited from the increased foot traffic of people on their way to and from GG, and some are noticing a considerable decline in business since GG lost the supervision of the Vaad.
Another item, an editorial, points out an interesting development:
The first, a front-page article, discusses the impact the decreased patronage of GG has had on businesses in close proximity to the store. Apparently, many of the stores around the supermarket have always benefited from the increased foot traffic of people on their way to and from GG, and some are noticing a considerable decline in business since GG lost the supervision of the Vaad.
Business at Gourmet Glatt is still reduced to a relative trickle since virtually every community rabbi advised his mispalelim to take their trade elsewhere, for the sake of preserving the Vaad as the sole kashruth provider in the Five Towns. And asI guess this is a sad example of how every action has a ripple effect.
Gourmet Glatt goes, it seems, so goes the neighborhood. Mom-and-pop stores, in particular, depend on foot traffic, something in short supply around Spruce Street these days.
Another item, an editorial, points out an interesting development:
The Star has confirmed that Gourmet Glatt’s delivery business is way up, as compared to before the Vaad removed it’s hashgacha.It's entirely unsurprising to me that members of the community are willing to betray their Rabbis' directives regarding not shopping at GG in private, but are not willing to shop there publicly. There will always be some who are willing to relax their standards when they feel people aren't looking. Remember, this neighborhood is the home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation. It's just fascinating to actually see that line of thinking in action.
posted by orthomom at 8:57 AM
213 Comments:
That's really sad. Really, really sad.
The doing one thing in rpivate and one in public is nothing new. But getting gg to deliver so as to get under the boycott radar is really ingenious.
"Remember, this neighborhood is the home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation."
Mighty big brush you're wielding there.
Mighty big brush you're wielding there
Mom is so right on her point about sheilts v bikinis. We had a discussion on this topic in the Six Flags Hot Channie thread
Om didn't say all women, she said some women. Also, she's dead on.
do you ever think about how much loshon hara you speak and cause others?
you are putting down an entire community to the masses.
do you send your children to any of the schools who are currently learning a Shmiras Halshon curriculum- b/c I hope their not learning from their mother.
"Remember, this neighborhood is the home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation."
Have you seen this? Or are you one of those who belives the loshan horah you hear and then chastise others???
"Remember, this neighborhood is the home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation."
Have you seen this? Or are you one of those who belives the loshan horah you hear and then chastise others???
I see it every day - Plenty of women (who wear sheitels and cover their hair) walking to/from the gym and to other stores on the way to/from the gym in their gym outfits.
1)How many sheitel-wearing women would you guess there are in the 5 towns?
2)What percentage of those would deport themselves as you described?
3)If the percentage is significant, how could you choose to bring your children up in such an environment. If it is not significant, why mention it at all?
Remember, this neighborhood is the home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation
have you actually seen this, that you claim it is true? or do you dare besmirch the reputation of an entire community based on hear-say?!?!
there are many of us who take great pride in our community and it irritates me greatly to hear something like that proclaimed as fact in a public place. does it please you when you hear that our community has a reputation for being a bad neighborhood made up of fakers and uber-fancy ppl? beacause it bothers me to hear ppl say things like that and sometimes the things that you post contribute greatly to the destruction of the reputation of what is, in most regards, a truely fine place that is home to fine people who are niether as snarky, manipulative nor twisted in the ways that you often allude to or say outright.
for the sake of ppl who take pride in our community and the people who live here, please take care not to bash us too much. we are for the most part a neighborhood full of chesed, tzedakah, good shuls and schools and people who are warm, open and friendly. it would be nice to be lauded as such for a change, rather than constantly harrangued as the awful ppl you often make us out to be.
I see it every day - Plenty of women (who wear sheitels and cover their hair) walking to/from the gym and to other stores on the way to/from the gym in their gym outfits.
that does gym outfuits have to do with hair covering??
I'm sorry you don't see the parallel
"Remember, this neighborhood is the home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation."
What a stupid comment to make.
Close to 15 years ago, I was in Miami Beach on my honeymoon when I expressed my own shock to my wife noting how many chassidishe women were walking around with a snood on their head, but nary a string or two holding their oh-so-teeny-bikini.
OM, if you think that women who live in holy Williamsburg, Boro Park, Flatbush, Teaneck, or Antwerp are any different, than those who live here, then you are far more naive than I gave you credit for.
I'm sure that you think that your comments here are those of your own (as judgemental as they may be), but others take them quite differently. By stating that the 5T community is THE home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation, I take that as an accusation that my wife exhibits that behavior. And worse, there are plenty of people who live in the 5T who DON'T know what you say here, and yet, those people are looked at by others as exhibiting the behaviors you mention.
Besides being slanderous, you undermine all the good work that so many people who live in this community do (and I'd like to include you in that list). I'm not talking about just the tzedaka that you like to mention in passing. I'm referring to those who partipate in tehillim groups, who attend shiurim, who get up at 4:30 AM every day to attend a Daf shiur, who give of their time for taharas mishpacha, who drive people to and from a hospital, who run pirchei and bnos groups, who teach kids (and adults) how to daven properly, who build and establish new shuls and places to learn and daven, -- the list goes on.
But in people's minds who read your blog, those people don't exist. And even though those people are actually growing and doing more and more every day, your constant remarks do nothing for it.
It's one thing to mention a cute story, make an interesting observation, to present an opinion on a particular item, or to make note of a news item. But to continuously bash a community over and over again when the things you cite are not restricted just to this neighborhood alone is hurtful and wrong.
Clean up your act OM -- either say something as it applies to everyone, or don't say it at all.
Everyone should be anti-vaad. This story just shows how much of a mafia it has become. Its all about dollars and cents. I would not be suprised if it comes out that the Vaad will only approve someone who gives them a kickback. I grew up in the 5 Towns and I am embarrased by what it has become.
I'm not from the "Five Towns" but I didn't take OrthoMom's comment regarding bikinis as anything more than it was -- a description of certain people. As an above commenter noted, she didn't say this applied to all women in the Five Towns or even that this kind of peoples do not exist anywhere else. And any ways, since when does OrthoMom have some responsibility to promote the "Five Towns" to the rest of the blog world?
Must, if you want to counter OM's "undoing of all the hard work" that you do, then start your own blog. Oh, right, you had one. One which included an ENTIRE POST dedicated to judging people from one of the five towns for their decisions regarding cosmetic surgery. Please, Must, spare us. The same way you spared us your now defunct blog.
OM, is Must your High School principal or something?
OM- How do you go to sleep at night knowing you promote so much Loshon Hara?
Why call yourself OrthoMom- which gives off a frum connotation if your actions don't represent that?
orthomom should sleep very well at night knowing she is uncovering the hypocrisy and the ridiculousness of the Five Towns jewish community.
Oh, right, you had one...
Which is why I realized my error and shut it down immediately. It's human to make a mistake. I took accountability for my actions and corrected them.
Some advice to OM -- take heed of your own words:
every action has a ripple effect.
The frum women in their gym clothes ALWAYS wear a skirt over their pants/leggings. Those that shop in their gym pants wear pants on a regular basis and are not acting hypocritical.
Exactly my point. You are one again displaying the exact same judgentalism you showed us back then. Please. Spare us.
And so what if a woman covers her hair and wears a bikini while on vacation? She's upholding the halacha every second that she covers her hair, and G-d takes note of that. And if, while on vacation, she decides to wear a bikini at the beach.....mind your own business. That's between her and G-d.
Just a note: I'm not from the 5T and do not think that all women in the 5T wear sheitals and bikinis just because OM said so. Those of you who are complaining, give people a little more credit.
And so what if a woman covers her hair and wears a bikini while on vacation? She's upholding the halacha every second that she covers her hair, and G-d takes note of that. And if, while on vacation, she decides to wear a bikini at the beach.....mind your own business. That's between her and G-d.
Just a note: I'm not from the 5T and do not think that all women in the 5T wear sheitals and bikinis just because OM said so. Those of you who are complaining, give people a little more credit.
I and my wife personally shopped this week in GG. I am a memner of YI Hewlett where there is no psycchotic ban on eating kosher food form a reputable store. Rabbi Kravitz can have my business rather than those gluttonous fatheads from woodmere and lawrence. People everywhere else laugh at our stupidity. Explain to G-d why one rabbi is holier than the other, all you fakers out there who go in bikinis to sunny isles and then boycott a jewish merchant. nuff said
The frum women in their gym clothes ALWAYS wear a skirt over their pants/leggings. Those that shop in their gym pants wear pants on a regular basis and are not acting hypocritical.
Do you ALWAYS follow EVERYONE home and see what they're wearing? Do you ALWAYS see EVERYONE on a regular basis to justify your conclusions?
Please. Spare us
That's G-d's decision, not mine.
That's G-d's decision, not mine.
Exactly my point.
At this time it is imperative that the rabbonim act quickly. The longer this situation continues the more harm it does to the community.
Who runs this vaad anyway. Is RYE holding something over the rabbnim's heads.If the Bolenders have tried to make peace then it should be settled.If Rye is holding things up,on matters that do not have anything to do with kashrut then get rid of him.
Personally, GG now has a better hashgacha then the vaad. besides, there have been many instances, some cited above, that indicate that the Mashgichim leave much to be desired.
A letter posted on GG's door, written by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, states the many changes that he has instituted. Why wasn't these things done by our vaad.
Rabbi Weiner is a musmach of Chaim Berlin and heads a Brooklyn organization that checks kashrut.
His brother is a rosh yeshiva of Torah and Science in Israel and his uncle was a rosh yeshiva of Chevron yeshiva.
The community is now divided and maybe the community should have a web site where people can give their opinion if we should be open to allowing more then one hashgacha.
Remember what absolute power does and when the rabbonim cannot take care of this matter maybe we should take care of it ourselves. This delay has only caused strife and allows for us to conjure up thoughts, mostly negative ones of our vaad which has never said that anything in GG is not kosher.
I myself never liked shopping in GG, yet the vaad's actions together with the rabbonim banning all shopping in GG smacks of a powerplay that is not befitting them. LET THEM FIX THIS SITUATION NOW.
Wow everyone is giving OM a hard time about the bikini comment. I think she is just writing a witty example of how people are much more stringent when they feel they can be identified or are known (i.e. it is a public incident). This is not a new concept by any stretch of the imagination.
Analyzing the post to see whether some slight was made against the 5 Towns is just really overdoing it. I think what OM said is true about certain members in pretty much any Orthodox community (I can say it is in mine). I would go even further and say that to a lesser extent every one has some level of inconsistency in how they act in private vs public.
I do agree though that this is sad...
have you ever seen these women in bikinis on vacation that you make such a statement?
Hey OM- I heard they're reading your blog at tomorrow's convention to show how pathetic blogs and their writers are
I'm not sure why om has to be the pr rep for the 5t. Must, if you feel so inclined, you should start a pr campaign for the 5ts. You've done such a good job for your own contest. If om is frustrated with certain aspects of her community, its a free country. She can vent here if she so desires. I for one feel like a kindred spirit to om. I am sick of the materialism and hipcrisy I see here. Why should people who have money be treated better in my sons yeshiva than simple people like me who can't afford 100$ bathing suits for my kids? Why should some parents be allowed to take their kids out of school for fancy vacation 3x a year while the poor kids whose parents are working sit behind their desks? Om is spot on. And you should stop projecting your own guilt for offending your neighbors and fellow communty members by trashing someone who I see as the voice of reason.
maybe its time to find a new school
Which school? The popular school with the names of a bunch of criminals plastered above the door??
The hypocrisy of the 5 towns disgusts me. Where they try to teach middot and honesty in schools named after criminals who are pillars of the community.
Rabbi Weiner is a musmach of Chaim Berlin and heads a Brooklyn organization that checks kashrut.
His brother is a rosh yeshiva of Torah and Science in Israel and his uncle was a rosh yeshiva of Chevron yeshiva.
While I know nothing about Rabbi Weiner's credentials, one has to wonder how he or Rabbi Kravitz rationalize endorsing this store's kashrus without having conferred with the Vaad, when they know that there have been kashrus issues raised.
My sense is that their actions are no different than those of many brooklyn kashrus agencies which regularly swoop in to replace certifications that have been removed by other agencies as a result of kashrus violations, without properly investigating the reasons for the removal of the previous certification. Kashrus is a cutthroat business and its unfortunately too common for some rabbis to offer their certification without proper investigation of the issues.
Anonymous said...
have you ever seen these women in bikinis on vacation that you make such a statement?
Are you kidding? Who hasn't! Just go to any warm weather place during January break and see for yourself.
Don’t blame OM for telling it like it is.
Ever wonder why Victoria’s Secret opened a store right on Central Avenue? Don’t you think they do extensive research before they open a store? Well they did – and they found that a high percentage of sales come from this area. Do you think all their sales are for Shabbos robes?
Most of the 5 Towns is what is referred to as "orthoprax"
most of what sam says makes no sense
Ever wonder why Victoria’s Secret opened a store right on Central Avenue? Don’t you think they do extensive research before they open a store? Well they did – and they found that a high percentage of sales come from this area. Do you think all their sales are for Shabbos robes?
And why is what people wear in the privacy of their own bedrooms relevant to the discussion? OM is talking about what people wear on the beach, not in their homes.
Must:
Don't make me laugh too hard. As a commenter above pointed out, you are showering your sanctimony down from a particularly precarious perch. Not since a particular teacher back in my Bais Yaakov days have I heard such inane haughty spewings.
And what in the world does this part of your comment mean:
Clean up your act OM -- either say something as it applies to everyone, or don't say it at all.
Um, ok. Let me try:
The 5 towns is inhabited by humans.
Some are female and some are male.
(oh, shoot. I only have my own family's experience to go by. I should strike that one through)
Some people in Lawrence are very good people and do tremendous chasadim and give much tzedakah.
(darn, that one doesn't "apply to everyone" either. let me cross it out)
I guess I can't talk about what you mentioned in your comment either:
you undermine all the good work that so many people who live in this community do (and I'd like to include you in that list). I'm not talking about just the tzedaka that you like to mention in passing. I'm referring to those who partipate in tehillim groups, who attend shiurim, who get up at 4:30 AM every day to attend a Daf shiur, who give of their time for taharas mishpacha, who drive people to and from a hospital, who run pirchei and bnos groups, who teach kids (and adults) how to daven properly, who build and establish new shuls and places to learn and daven, -- the list goes on.
because clearly, it can't possibly "apply to everyone".
Must, people aren't stupid. There are bad people in every community, as well as good people. Venting about the people who do bad things or who do things that annoy me cannot possibly "undermine all the good work that so many people who live in this community do". It's absurd to suggest that it could.
zing!
What truly is absurd is OM's claim that her venting "cannot possibly" have an effect on the people who read her blog and their perception of the community in question. Yes, including to the extent that it "undermines" the good work that others work hard to promote.
"Must, people aren't stupid. There are bad people in every community, as well as good people. "
People are stupid and they do stupid things all the time. You have a "5 Towns" blog of which 90% is critical and causes additional criticisms, OM, you are not a bad person, its time to stop before you turn in to one. This blog does no good. Fine, its your blog, we can open our own. But you turn everything that happens in the neighborhood into the town gossip. What issue have you solved. The school board got death threats, the GG issue isnt solved. How about a blog that finds the good stories out there, Im sure there are a few good things happening in the 5 towns.
What truly is absurd is OM's claim that her venting "cannot possibly" have an effect on the people who read her blog and their perception of the community in question. Yes, including to the extent that it "undermines" the good work that others work hard to promote.
You give the influence my blog has way too much credit. But thanks for the compliment anyhow.
As far as interfering with people's good work, if my rants cause people to stop doing good deeds, they have problems. And if there really are people doing good deeds simply tp promote the perception of the 5T, they have to put their priorities in perspective.
People are stupid and they do stupid things all the time. You have a "5 Towns" blog of which 90% is critical and causes additional criticisms, OM, you are not a bad person, its time to stop before you turn in to one. This blog does no good. Fine, its your blog, we can open our own. But you turn everything that happens in the neighborhood into the town gossip. What issue have you solved. The school board got death threats, the GG issue isnt solved. How about a blog that finds the good stories out there, Im sure there are a few good things happening in the 5 towns.
I appreciate your concern, but I'm not sure as to what you mean. Are you even attempting to blame my blog for the neighborhood being full of gossip? Trust me, there is no more gossip in this neighborhood than there was before I started blogging. And you may feel that I have solved nothing with my blog, but I may have different objectives than saving the world.
You're being slightly disingenuous, as you are correct that your criticism certainly does not interfere with people doing good work. However, you are somewhat naive (or spiteful) of the fact that much emphasis in our religion relates to having and cultivating a "good name" (shem tov). Explain to me how you can blithely ignore this directive?
Anonymous said...
You're being slightly disingenuous, as you are correct that your criticism certainly does not interfere with people doing good work. However, you are somewhat naive (or spiteful) of the fact that much emphasis in our religion relates to having and cultivating a "good name" (shem tov). Explain to me how you can blithely ignore this directive?
People cultivate a good name by being good people. As long as there are charedim who riot or 5 towns people who act to one another with atrocious middos, they are certainly not fulfilling their end of that commandment. The directive to cultivate a "Shem Tov" does not mean shoving bad behavior under the carpet and pretending it doesn't exist. It means not behaving badly.
You're (willfully) missing the point. I am not referring to the underlying bad actors. My question is directed to you -- do you think your post contributes postively or negatively to the community's "shem tov"?
If the latter, how do you square this with your admitted obligations?
My question is directed to you -- do you think your post contributes postively or negatively to the community's "shem tov"?
Does a community have a halachically definable "Shem Tov"? I don't think that implying that (gasp) not everyone in an expansive and sprawling community is flawless is interfering with my (very debatable) obligation to do constant positive PR for said community.
The first part of your comment can be addressed through further research -- I think I (or others) can show you that a community can have an injuriable name.
Also, I must say you are master of the straw man argument. I never said you had an obligation to promote the good name of the community, just avoid damaging it.
I never said you had an obligation to promote the good name of the community, just avoid damaging it.
Really?
However, you are somewhat naive (or spiteful) of the fact that much emphasis in our religion relates to having and cultivating a "good name" (shem tov). Explain to me how you can blithely ignore this directive?
Cultivate, promote, what's the difference? The point is whether I have an obligation to pretend there aren't things going on here that I think are unacceptable. You think I do. I disagree vehemently. The tone of my posts are generally quite mild, with no identifying of any idividuals - or individual groups, for that matter. Am I causing the vast greater 5T community great harm by pointing out what I think are its flaws? I think not.
Feel free to disagree. I have no problem with disagreement.
Also, assuming that my blog has HALF the influence you attribute to it (which is quite a stretch, IMHO), if it makes the perpetrators of the bad behavior take a long hard look in the mirror, I can't see how that is not the first step to solving bad behavior.
Good sources tell me that to the contrary, GG's delivery service is actually slower than usual
These comments are dumb. I live in one of the Five Towns, and I am not offended by Orthomom's comment. I definitely understand that there isnt any generalisation being made. If I don't do what she is describing, why would I care. I don't buy my kids expensive bathing suits in November. My wife doesn't wear bikini at the beach, or a sheitel for that matter. So I guess the answer to the outrage at Om is, the people who don't like the criticism are the people for whom it hits home hardest.
I'm troubled by a few things:
1) you point out time and again that your blog is not so influential. sometimes when and how you say this gives off the impression that you feel this lack of influence makes it acceptable to write some of what you write. that somehow, were it more influential than you'd be obligated to be more careful. i hope that's not the case.
2) related to the prior point, as far as the effects on a community, the relevant point is not how large the effect is, rather whether one is a contributor positively or negatively to his/her community. i am not suggesting u should feel obliged to 'shove things under the rug,' however the majority of your blog is devoted to the negative aspects of both your local, and the greater, jewish community. even if you were to claim ea. individual post is just discussing the issues of the day, as a whole they form an entity of its own right. in the case of your blog, that entity is decisively patronizing, cynical, and just plain negative.
you can do the usual 'oh it's my blog, if u dont like it leave' routine or u can try reflecting for 1/2 a second about s/o's critique of your approach.
you can do the usual 'oh it's my blog, if u dont like it leave' routine or u can try reflecting for 1/2 a second about s/o's critique of your approach.
I actually don't see where I said that in this exchange. I think I've been responding to your points. Talk about throwing in an irrelevant comment.
I have reflected on what you are saying, and I simply don't see where my (quite mild) commentary on the things that bother me in my neighborhood are as damaging as you suggest. The influence of my blog is not in question - it's the question of whether the offhand commentary of any single blogger is a detraction to a community as large and heterogeneous as the Five Towns. I think it is not.
"Remember, this neighborhood is the home to women who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation."
Great Assesment Orthomom amazing how many to frum to be talking to you 5 town folks dip in the pools on Miami Beach ladies in thier tiechel or baseball caps and bikinis and men mixed swiming but the again doesn'e Judiaisim stop at I-95 in Lakewood NJ ?
Om didn't say all women, she said some women. Also, she's dead on.
Why so, why this neighborhood more than others? I saw many young women from the cedarhurst/woodmere community in Miami Beach last winter who never stepped foot in the pool while their husbands were frolicking in the pool with their children, never mind the other women in the pool.
And what about the women from Flatbush and the chasidim from boro park or even williamburgh who I saw at the same pool who didn't even bother to wear a tee shirt as long as they wore a teichel covering their hair?
Stop bashing the Five Towns already!!!! I'm beginning to think you don't really live here, you just come to spy on us and judge us. Genuk shoin!!
om
who is betraying whom?
these rabbis are the betrayers.
every other community has plenty of hashgachas. why should these rabbis decide what i eat. im tired of eating the filthy food at brachs or the price gouging food at supersol.
as far as shaitels and bikinis.
what is the problem? these woman are forced to wear shaitels by the rabbis. would they be let in shul without one?
they do it to respect the community, and now you want to control what they do on vacation. As if when you go on vacation you are miss perfect.
you know very well that is bs.
stop judging people and work on making your self happy with what you got.
youre jealous of the hot chanies because you probably have let yourself go.
for the most part a neighborhood full of chesed, tzedakah, good shuls and schools and people who are warm, open and friendly. it would be nice to be lauded as such for a change, rather than constantly harrangued as the awful ppl you often make us out to be.
12:01 PM
I'm with you!!! I am beginning to understand why the Aguda needs a whole session devoted to blogging. You have CHUTZPAH with a capital C
>Ever wonder why Victoria’s Secret opened a store right on Central Avenue? Don’t you think they do extensive research before they open a store? Well they did – and they found that a high percentage of sales come from this area. Do you think all their sales are for Shabbos robes?
since when is it assur for a woman to look sexy for her husband?
if youre a 5t woman then stop being such a frump and liven it up a little.
if youre a man, i bet youre simply jealous youre wife only buys shabbos robes.
I'm not from the "Five Towns" but I didn't take OrthoMom's comment regarding bikinis as anything more than it was -- a description of certain people. As an above commenter noted, she didn't say this applied to all women in the Five Towns or even that this kind of peoples do not exist anywhere else. And any ways, since when does OrthoMom have some responsibility to promote the "Five Towns" to the rest of the blog world?
Here is the thing no one was talking about "promoting" genius, we were talking about "bashing" and we in the Five Towns are sick of it. If you don't like living here, if you hate your neighbors so much, if we don't live up to your standards, and if all you have for us is criticism, no one is forcing you to live among us.
But if you choose to live here, look around and stop judging. Live and let live, look for the good in people as the Torah tells you to. You are not better than your neighbor, you may be different but you are not better. Your blog is full of opinionated Loshon Horah and nothing else. It is not productive nor constructive. It used to have a purpose at least if for nothing else than to impart information and to exchange some valuable ideas and concepts.
It has evolved into shmutz throwing, people bashing, loshong horah, motzi shem rah, dividing a neighborhood, calling people bad names and nothing more than a pure chilul hashem.
I am proud to live in the Five Towns and anyone who lives here should be as well. It is a privilege to live in this community not in spite of the diversity among us but becaue of it. I don't care if you cover your hair or not or if you wear a beard and black hat or a kipah serugah. A Jew is a Jew and you are a victory on the Nazis.
Did any of you watch the History Channel this past Sunday. The story of the Bielski Brother's, Jerusalem in the Woods? Look it up on the internet. Three brothers that saved 1,200 lives in the war. They new that every Jew is important. Maybe OM can learn something from them!!
orthomom should sleep very well at night knowing she is uncovering the hypocrisy and the ridiculousness of the Five Towns jewish community.
Yeah right Orthomom the new Mother Theresa
> if it makes the perpetrators of the bad behavior take a long hard look in the mirror, I can't see how that is not the first step to solving bad behavior.
om
who died and made you judge, jury and executioner.
what is exactly the problem here. these woman wear shaitels. so on vacation they do what they want. are you telling me you never do what you want. youre such a saint?
since when do we decide whose aveiros are the ones we need to judge. youre like the taliban.
maybe these woman dont want to wear burkas, or cross the street so men dont have to look at them. they wear bikinis because it makes them feel good that they take care of themselves.
maybe more 5t woman should.
Admit it, youre using bikini as a smoke screen because your rav wouldnt allow you to go to the beach AT ALL.
and if you do, YOU are the problem. you can cover up head to toe all you want, but having yeshiva boys and your od at the beach is GILUY ARAYOS according to your rav.
so speak plainly and complain about those shaitel wearing, robe wearing beach goers, because they are just as bad, and hyprocritical to boot.
looks like the mudslinging crazies are back. get over your defensiveness. i see om's posts for what they are. amusing vignettes about the trials of life in the five towns. the good parts of the hive towns are touted plenty.
i also agree with anonymous.
orthodox yeshivish charedi judiasm has descended into a sanctimonous religion.
instead of loving their fellow jew, and setting examples of behaviour, they only know how to nag.
i think part of it is the dissonance between what yeshivish people were brainwashed in school and the reality of people who can think for themselves.
it just doesnt compute that people dont follow the pied piper and make judgements (that everyone does who are honest enough to admit it) for themselves about what they feel comfortable with. Not everyone is going to be so holy like orthomom.
i also recall the famous saying,
those who protest, probably have something to hide.
anonymous
no its not cute. its taliban and preachy. and we are tired of it.
judiasm is not about measuring someone elses bathing suit. At least thats what i thought it wasnt about until i started reading OM.
instead of dealing with the points, the taliban always resort to crying wolf (the mudslingers, as if saying so, doesnt make YOU a mudslinger)
Let me get something straight - I could not possibly care less about women wearing bikinis and sheitels. Let them feel free to do whatever the heck they want. There is not ONE iota of judgment in stating the fact that such women exist in the community. However, there certainly are Five Towns members who act in an uneven manner based on who's watching, and apparently that carries through to their grocery shopping as well.
The defensiveness quotient is really in high gear. Chill, everyone.
om
why dont you state there are MEN who lie, steal and cheat and are daven for the amud on shabbos, with their black hats and 3 inch brims.
stop picking on woman, and lets make it a habit to show how hyprocritical men in the five towns are.
also lets make it, at the very least, just as distasteful to lie cheat and steal as it is to be materialistic.
Let's face it folks the rules and restrictions keep expanding as more Rabbis have too much free time. Rabbis were more reasonable back in the day when they had to chop wood or do something else productive to make a living.
stop picking on woman, and lets make it a habit to show how hyprocritical men in the five towns are.
I am a woman, that's what I know. I know what I see on Central Avenue, and at the beach club, and during carpool.
And the raison d'etre of my blog is certainly not to bash five towns residents for their hypocrisy. frankly, I don't really care if they are hypocritical. I do, however, find it hard to deal sometimes with the rampant materialism that goes on in my community. I use my blog as a place to vent about it. I am entitled.
enough is enough said...
anonymous
no its not cute. its taliban and preachy. and we are tired of it.
judiasm is not about measuring someone elses bathing suit. At least thats what i thought it wasnt about until i started reading OM.
Come on. You can't possibly be reading my blog and thinking that. I am certainly not judgmental about people's observance levels - find me the posts here I decry people for lax observance. I don't even decry them here for doing one thing at home and another when no one's watching - I. Don't. Care. This post was simply making an observation. And that observation is that I am not surprised that women who keep to different standards when away from the prying eye of the public will do the same for their grocery shopping.
>it hard to deal sometimes with the rampant materialism that goes on in my community.
>This post was simply making an observation. And that observation is that I am not surprised that women who keep to different standards when away from the prying eye of the public will do the same for their grocery shopping.
im not surprised that rabbis say one thing when people are around and do another when no one is looking. they are human beings. are you the only human being saint who always acts the same in public as in private?
as far as rampant materialism, like i said, id rather have people who enjoy things in life, than people who get frustrated by people doing so.
go enjoy yourself a little, maybe you wont need to vent. who is stopping you from enjoying yourself? YOU. so YOU are the problem. stop trying to live and be someone you obviously are not. if you were your ideal, you wouldnt be noticing the materialist woman out there. you notice because its what you desire and are afraid to let yourself admit it.
go enjoy yourself a little, maybe you wont need to vent. who is stopping you from enjoying yourself? YOU. so YOU are the problem. stop trying to live and be someone you obviously are not. if you were your ideal, you wouldnt be noticing the materialist woman out there. you notice because its what you desire and are afraid to let yourself admit it.
Thanks for the psychoanalysis, but you're wrong. I enjoy myself plenty. But there are plenty of neighborhoods out there with residents as wealthy as the 5Towns locals who just don't set the bar as high when it comes to materialism. You also how no idea how my family lives. We could be socking away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in savings while living modestly.
And as far as whether the neighborhood has good things to offer - of course it does. That's why I find it so hard to cope with the spiraling out of control spending that goes on all around me. If this neighborhood were all bad it would be a lot easier to pick up and move.
And trust me, there are plenty of locals who think, like me, that the standard has been set impossibly high.
the main thing that is spiraling out of control is tuition.
it is double the cost of a brooklyn yeshiva.
WHY?
enough is enough said...
the main thing that is spiraling out of control is tuition.
it is double the cost of a brooklyn yeshiva.
WHY?
Hey, I more than agree. I posted about this several times.
who said living modestly is something to be admired?
maybe your socking all that money away to buy a summer home. who said that is less materialistic than nice children clothes.
its your value of what you think is worth spending money on or not.
who decides where the line is crossed.
i suspect if you had more money your tolerance level would be higher.
mind you, im not rich, im struggling with ridiculously high tuitions, i live in five towns and i couldnt care less what people do with their money.
i do care to understand where all the tuition money is going to.
why is that a state secret?
re your agreement on tuition
i know, but that should be the number one vent. i believe yeshivas try to deflect attention from themselves by inventing other issues for parents to rally around.
materialism is one of those issues.
who said living modestly is something to be admired?
I personally think it is. You disagree? Put it in comments, respectfully, without the personal attacks on what you THINK my motivations are. That's called dialogue. And maybe then we can have a discussion about what YOU think the problems here are.
id like to add, it sounds like youre arguing that the materliasts cause the people around you to want to keep up with them.
sounds like you are blaming the wrong people. those people who feel they need to keep up with jones, and blame the jones for making them do that, are at fault for lo sachmod. let people start being responsible for themselves and stop looking for reasons for their own problems.
om
who decides where the line of modestly is?
isnt it relative?
you may think youre living modestly. I can find you 10 jews who would care to disagree.
the chofetz chaim didnt have furniture according to the legend.
i know, but that should be the number one vent. i believe yeshivas try to deflect attention from themselves by inventing other issues for parents to rally around.
You know, it's funny you should say that. When I vent about tuition, there's another commenter waiting in the wings telling me that I shouldn't be posting about that, or that I am only complaining because I wish I had more money. There are always commenters who like to complain, or guess at my motivations, or psychoanalyze me. If you want to discuss the issues such as tuition, welcome. If you want to knock my motivations and just be an unpleasant commenter, have a good time - but don't expect dialogue.
no more motivation comments.
who decides what modestly means?
id like to add, it sounds like youre arguing that the materliasts cause the people around you to want to keep up with them.
I'm not. I'm saying that the standards keep getting higher, and people (even those who can afford it) are spending more and more. I just think it's a whole lot of waste to gold-plate your powder room faucets (not a joke) when people are struggling to eat.
who decides what modestly means?
I agree that the standards are subjective. But I think there are objective examples of egregious rampant materialism that all would agree are over-the-top.
enough is enough said...
no more motivation comments.
thank you.
>gold plated faucets.
bathrooms have become a living quarter that people relax in to get away from the pressures of life.
i suspect someone who can afford gold plated faucets, has very fancy tile work as well.
does expensive tiles bother you?
i believe in israel the rabbi yehuda hanasi house had very expensive mosaics.
Just a note: I'm not from the 5T and do not think that all women in the 5T wear sheitals and bikinis just because OM said so. Those of you who are complaining, give people a little more credit.
That's not the point, the point is that it is hurtful to us to keep hearing her bash us over an over again.
I'm not. I'm saying that the standards keep getting higher, and people (even those who can afford it) are spending more and more. I just think it's a whole lot of waste to gold-plate your powder room faucets (not a joke) when people are struggling to eat.
12:31 AM
Your too much sweetheart, those people who gold plate their powder room faucets happen to also FEED THE HUNGRY so don't go worrying so much about peope who are struggling to eat deary or haven't you heard. WHEN YOU GIVE TZEDAKAH AND DO CHESED HASHEM GIVES YOU BACK YOUR MONEY KIFLAYIM. THAT IS PROBABLY WHY THEY CAN AFFORD TO GOLD PLATE THEY POWDER ROOM FAUCETS. MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRYING AND STOP PEEKING IN THE WINDOWS, YOU MIGHT ENJOY BEING THE ONE LOOKING TO THE OUTSIDE OF THOSE WINDOWS ONE DAY INSTEAD OF ALWAYS PEERING IN AND JUST JUDGING OTHERS.
I am certainly not judgmental about people's observance levels - find me the posts here I decry people for lax observance. I don't even decry them here for doing one thing at home and another when no one's watching
Duh???? Do you ever read what you write?
"WHEN YOU GIVE TZEDAKAH AND DO CHESED HASHEM GIVES YOU BACK YOUR MONEY KIFLAYIM. THAT IS PROBABLY WHY THEY CAN AFFORD TO GOLD PLATE THEY POWDER ROOM FAUCETS."
Thats funny. Is that how the richie riches justify their exorbitant spending habits these days? what come first, the chocken or the egg? are you saying every rich 5t resident got their money because they ALL gave so much tzedakah. Whatever. Obviously you're a gold-plated faucet type. Noone thinks that the ones who resent oms very accurate rants against the communities spending habits are feeling anything but defensive.
looks like the mudslinging crazies are back. get over your defensiveness. i see om's posts for what they are. amusing vignettes about the trials of life in the five towns. the good parts of the hive towns are touted plenty.
Amusing? Oh pleaaaaaaaaaaase, there is nothing amusing about putting your neighbors down and judging everyone and everything around you. There is a way of writing things with an amusing prose or an amusing style. Nothing that OM writes comes off that way, her pen is as sharp and as weighty as a sword.
Duh???? Do you ever read what you write?
Yes? Do you see me criticizing observance levels in this post? I'm not sure where. You can read into things all you want. But the fact is, the last thing you will see me being critical of is whether a person's observance is up to any sort of standard. I don't care.
I own up to being critical of other things. Just not observance levels.
I am a woman, that's what I know. I know what I see on Central Avenue, and at the beach club, and during carpool.
Watch out ladies, she goes to the beach club. She'll be talking about you next summer, make sure you have Vintage 1970's Alexander's shmates on.
"there is nothing amusing about putting your neighbors down and judging everyone and everything around you."
except that you just summed up evrything that's wrong with the 5T.
Yes? Do you see me criticizing observance levels in this post? I'm not sure where. You can read into things all you want. But the fact is, the last thing you will see me being critical of is whether a person's observance is up to any sort of standard. I don't care.
I own up to being critical of other things. Just not observance levels
Yes, you judged the observance level when you said 5 towns women where their sheitels here and their bikinis on vacation. What does that say about their observance level?
"there is nothing amusing about putting your neighbors down and judging everyone and everything around you."
except that you just summed up evrything that's wrong with the 5T.
2:20 AM
Explain that please, it must be the late hour I don't get it. What is wrong with the 5towns, that everyone is judgemental, no not everyone, just on this blog.
Watch out ladies, she goes to the beach club. She'll be talking about you next summer, make sure you have Vintage 1970's Alexander's shmates on.
Yawn. Are you done? This is getting tedious. I think that I can find many to agree with me that with regards to the absurdity of women clamoring to buy bathing suits for their infants the day they come out, in the middle of November. You don't? Ok.
Yes, you judged the observance level when you said 5 towns women where their sheitels here and their bikinis on vacation. What does that say about their observance level?
I said there ARE women here who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation. All it says about their observance levels is that they do things differently in different locales. Do I care? No more than I care whether women wear bikinis in every locale. It does, however, have its parallel in women not wanting to be seen in GG, yet being willing to go for home delivery. An observation.
Thats funny. Is that how the richie riches justify their exorbitant spending habits these days? what come first, the chocken or the egg? are you saying every rich 5t resident got their money because they ALL gave so much tzedakah. Whatever. Obviously you're a gold-plated faucet type. Noone thinks that the ones who resent oms very accurate rants against the communities spending habits are feeling anything but defensive.
2:15 AM
Actually I'm not I'm not, I'm a jeans and tee shirt type, but it aint nobody's business if someone likes fine things and wants to decorate their homes with diamonds and rubies.The wealthy in this community give tons of tzedakah and kol hakovod to them. They should all be g'benched for all the tzedakah they give and let them keep giving it and let Hashem keep blessing them with more money so they can keep giving it away. And I don't care if they make 20 bathrooms with gold faucets and they can lay diamonds on their toilets for all I care.
I said there ARE women here who wear sheitels at home and bikinis on vacation. All it says about their observance levels is that they do things differently in different locales. Do I care? No more than I care whether women wear bikinis in every locale. It does, however, have its parallel in women not wanting to be seen in GG, yet being willing to go for home delivery. An observation.
Interesting, I always say Hashem has a funny sense of humor. This started out as another attack on GG, and it turned out to be an attack on you. Funny how that happened.
They should all be g'benched for all the tzedakah they give and let them keep giving it and let Hashem keep blessing them with more money so they can keep giving it away. And I don't care if they make 20 bathrooms with gold faucets and they can lay diamonds on their toilets for all I care.
I actually agree. The problem is the middle classers. In this neighborhood, there is a large swath of people who seem to feel the need to outdo each other, whether or not they can afford it. Some can, some can't.
Should I let it bother me? Hell, no. Does the constant rat race bother me anyway? Yes. I'm just being honest. People want to tell me to stop looking and worry about myself. I hear that. What can I say? We all have our flaws. Mine is that I hate to see my neighbors kill themselves just to be able to afford the same SUV that their neighbor has.
Interesting, I always say Hashem has a funny sense of humor. This started out as another attack on GG, and it turned out to be an attack on you. Funny how that happened.
Every post here turns into an attack on me. Welcome to my comments section. People can;t address the issues at hand. Sad.
ORTHOMOM..DONT YOU EVER SLEEP,,, I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY NIGHTBIRD AROUND.
MOMOF4 you are so right, If more people would be happy with themselves they would not care to show as much to others .
Too sad when guys in shul come ask me for short term loans, when i drive one of the older "junkier" cars there.
Emes man
Hey I bet the treif Frank Purdue of monseys wife never even owned a Bikini. The RYEs of this world need to stop judging externally. It is common practice even in "black" YU circles for womens sleeves to not be "as long" , does that mean we can not eat in their homes.
I guess people are bored of GG so they are now attacking OM. While one may not agree woith OM, she still owns this thread. SHOW SOME RESPECT.
Blah Blah Blah....school budget......blah blah.......GG......Blah.......Bikinis (sexy time?.....high five)......blah blah.....
OM, time to pack it up. You're boring, opinionated, obnoxious, redundant....and worst of all a naysayer. No one likes a naysayer. I hope the stuffing you get is bland, and your sweet potato rotten....Happy Thanksgiving!
OM, time to pack it up. You're boring, opinionated, obnoxious, redundant....and worst of all a naysayer. No one likes a naysayer. I hope the stuffing you get is bland, and your sweet potato rotten....Happy Thanksgiving!
Wow. But you - unlike myself, of course - are all sweetness and light. Not a naysayer at all. Not obnoxious or opinionated. Thanks for the warm wishes!
Whatever people do in terms of observance is their own business. I resent it when people act very pious, do things that don't reflect that, and then crticize other people for not being frum. What I am basically saying is that if people are not 100% themselves perfect in terms of frumkheit, they should keep their mouths shut.
Anonymous said...
Whatever people do in terms of observance is their own business. I resent it when people act very pious, do things that don't reflect that, and then crticize other people for not being frum. What I am basically saying is that if people are not 100% themselves perfect in terms of frumkheit, they should keep their mouths shut.
Ther is a difference, however, between criticism and observation. Not every observation is a criticism. For example, if I were to tell you that someone chooses not to cover their hair. Is that automatically a judgment? Only if you are looking for it to be. It could well be a passionless statement of fact. I will admit that the written word lacks the nuance that the spoken word affords us in conversation, and that can be where the signals get crossed
Naysayer according to the dictionary mean: a person who HABITUALLY expresses negative or pessimistic views. You are a naysayer.
Those weren't my only wishes I had for you......only the ones I'm able to write down on a "family blog"
Your day will come.
"
Those weren't my only wishes I had for you......only the ones I'm able to write down on a "family blog"
Your day will come."
!!!
I think I can join many of Oms commenters in saying that whether I agree with all of her posts or not (I don't) I do no harbor the ill will I see from this commenter who has gone off the deep end and needs some rage and hatred management.
Om isnt your problem, pal.
"I actually don't see where I said that in this exchange. I think I've been responding to your points. Talk about throwing in an irrelevant comment."
When I said how you could fall back on the 'it's my blog...' bit, I was referring to how you that in general.
It was a very relevant point b/c I've seen u use that awful argument b/4 and wanted to pre-empt its use again.
You had not, at that point, responded to any of my questions in this thread b/c that was my first (and this my 2nd) post in the thread. figured u knew based on IP. sorry for the confusion.
"I have reflected on what you are saying, and I simply don't see where my (quite mild) commentary on the things that bother me in my neighborhood are as damaging as you suggest. The influence of my blog is not in question - it's the question of whether the offhand commentary of any single blogger is a detraction to a community as large and heterogeneous as the Five Towns. I think it is not."
i never discussed the degree of damage your comments cause. in fact, i specifically stated that was not my point at all. Hence i wrote "the relevant point is not how large the effect is, rather whether one is a contributor positively or negatively to his/her community."
your response here creates a question i didn't ask. the differences may seem nuanced, but they are significant. the issue is not (from the view of an ethical/moral Orthodox Jew, which you most certainly are), as u suggest, the degree of influence. the issue is whether the influence is positive or negative. our actions, as is the case with our lives, should be evaluated (and re-evaluated) on whether or not they are making a positive or negative impact on our community.
my point was, and is, that while most of your posts on their own simply bring awareness to important issues that ought to be addressed, there is a separate and distinct impact from the 'theme', if you will, of the blog itself. that theme is decisively negative. it is s/t along the lines of "here is where we bash my community and all the wrongs in the jewish world at large." as i said, each point on its own is usually quite valuable, but collectively they have a negative effect. for a frum jew the question is not HOW negative, rather simply IF it is positve or negative.
sorry for the length, but it didnt seem like the shorter post was able to explain the point. this post, of course, could be inserted in most any substantive post on your blog. just happened to mention here.
I think your point regarding the overall negativity of my blog is a fair one, but one that I can't necessarily help you with. I started this blog as an online journal of sorts, and my posts have basically ran between rants about things that irk me in my community, things that I think need to be said and are not being said in the Orthodox community at large, and the rest is a recap of stories that might be of interest to the orthodox community. There are times that one type of post outweighs the other types, and there are times when they are all equally weighted. This depends on various factors such as the news cycle, the behavior I encountered from locals, my mood. But the argument that you find "awful" - the one that it's my blog, and I am entitled to post whatever I wish - is a valid one. It is my blog, and it is my right to blog about what I want. And while commenters are entitled to come here and take issue with my posts, I prefer that they do so in the same tone that I write my posts - a respectful, if perhaps critical one.
Those weren't my only wishes I had for you......only the ones I'm able to write down on a "family blog"
Your day will come.
As a commenter above stated regarding your "wishes", you have serious issues if a mild post on a blog can lead you to make such ominous and rage-filled threats. I think you need to take a deep breath and stop hanging around the blogosphere so much. It doesn;t seem to become you.
THE EARLIER DISGUSTING BLOGGER SHOULD BE BLOCKED IF THEY CONTINUE THIS PERSONAL ATTACK ON OM..I DISAGREE WITH OM ON MANY ISSUES; BUT SHE IS ENTITLED TO HER OPINION AS I AM ENTITLED TO MINE. TO PERSONALLY ATTACK HER WITH SUCH VENOM IS DOWNRIGHT SCARY.
guess people are bored of GG so they are now attacking OM. While one may not agree woith OM, she still owns this thread. SHOW SOME RESPECT.
RESPECAT is a two way street buddy!! He (or she) who gives respect gets respect.
RESPECAT is a two way street buddy!! He (or she) who gives respect gets respect.
You may not like what I have to say, but I never level threats at people or disparage them the way commenters feel perfectly comfortable doing here.
Do you feel that bashing the neighborhood or starting blogs that continually feed Loshon Horah are respectful?
anon 11:00,
So people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? Gotcha!! I guess when you start a blog and you voice whatever it is you feel like voicing you throw out the first stone, whatever happens from that point....
Anonymous said...
Do you feel that bashing the neighborhood or starting blogs that continually feed Loshon Horah are respectful?
The way to express that you think it is not is not to level rage-filled curses at me. You have far greater issues than I do if you think that it is. And I think calling what I do "bashing" my community is a gross exaggeration. I express displeasure with certain aspects of community life out here.
In regard to "IP addresses" let's get something cleared up on that.
Blogspot is a "free sight" and anonymous means just that. Do you honestly believe that someone who is not paying for the service has any access to "see" the IP addresses of anyone who is posting. Get real, have you heard of internet security and firewall? You are on it buddy!.
She can't see your IP address. Grow up!
So people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? Gotcha!! I guess when you start a blog and you voice whatever it is you feel like voicing you throw out the first stone, whatever happens from that point....
Well, thats one way of looking at it. But I think it's wrong. The second someone expresses the mildest displeasure with any aspect of life they give up their right to be treated like a fellow human? That's a bit harsh for my tastes. And I thank God that that is not the rule among my friends and neighbors in real life. I have said many of the same things I say on this blog in real life, as have others in a very public forum, and yet the tone somehow remained respectful throughout the conversation.
"Blogspot is a "free sight" and anonymous means just that. Do you honestly believe that someone who is not paying for the service has any access to "see" the IP addresses of anyone who is posting. Get real, have you heard of internet security and firewall? You are on it buddy!.
She can't see your IP address. Grow up!"
Actually, she has a sitemeter. So she can figure it out easily. But it's a bit tedious so I doubt that she does it unless there's a threat or really bad behavior.
"I started this blog as an online journal of sorts, and my posts have basically ran between rants about things that irk me in my community, things that I think need to be said and are not being said in the Orthodox community at large, and the rest is a recap of stories that might be of interest to the orthodox community. There are times that one type of post outweighs the other types, and there are times when they are all equally weighted. This depends on various factors such as the news cycle, the behavior I encountered from locals, my mood. But the argument that you find "awful" - the one that it's my blog, and I am entitled to post whatever I wish - is a valid one. It is my blog, and it is my right to blog about what I want. And while commenters are entitled to come here and take issue with my posts, I prefer that they do so in the same tone that I write my posts - a respectful, if perhaps critical one."
OM - I know that you doubt the widespread reach of your blog, but do not underestimate the extent to which this blog has reached. Don't you think people quote the controversial posts from your blog at their shabbos tables? Don't you think an incredible amount of loshon hora is spoken as a result of this? I would tend to believe that you will be held accountable for every utterance of loshon hora that is spoken as a result of your written word. Never mind the blatant loshon hora that is written daily in the comment section of your blog. Within the last few comments, there were loshon hora references to Rabbi Eisen, Supersol, Brach's, "bored Rabbis", and the Five Towns as a whole. Maybe you should seek a Rabbinic opinion as to the halachic ramifications of a blog that is a "journal of sorts" which leads to loshon hora and slander.
"I started this blog as an online journal of sorts, and my posts have basically ran between rants about things that irk me in my community, things that I think need to be said and are not being said in the Orthodox community at large, and the rest is a recap of stories that might be of interest to the orthodox community. There are times that one type of post outweighs the other types, and there are times when they are all equally weighted. This depends on various factors such as the news cycle, the behavior I encountered from locals, my mood. But the argument that you find "awful" - the one that it's my blog, and I am entitled to post whatever I wish - is a valid one. It is my blog, and it is my right to blog about what I want. And while commenters are entitled to come here and take issue with my posts, I prefer that they do so in the same tone that I write my posts - a respectful, if perhaps critical one."
OM - I know that you doubt the widespread reach of your blog, but do not underestimate the extent to which this blog has reached. Don't you think people quote the controversial posts from your blog at their shabbos tables? Don't you think an incredible amount of loshon hora is spoken as a result of this? I would tend to believe that you will be held accountable for every utterance of loshon hora that is spoken as a result of your written word. Never mind the blatant loshon hora that is written daily in the comment section of your blog. Within the last few comments, there were loshon hora references to Rabbi Eisen, Supersol, Brach's, "bored Rabbis", and the Five Towns as a whole. Maybe you should seek a Rabbinic opinion as to the halachic ramifications of a blog that is a "journal of sorts" which leads to loshon hora and slander.
anon 2:10. what are you talking about? i was explaining why i thought she'd realize i hadnt posted yet in this comment thread. i wasnt worried about privacy at all.
in short, if you're going to attack s/o, learn how to read first. sorry if that's harsh, but ur inventing a non-issue and that's really annoying.
orthomom: considering some of the other comments i'd rather not be associated with (in fact, they're quite disturbing) i will emphasize what before i took as a given. namely, it should be clear that most of your posts are respectful even when critical.
Yes, it's your blog, but so what? If I own a newspaper am i free to rant about whatever i choose? I keep coming back to the ethical/moral point. if your vantage pt is a wholly secular one then yes, you have a winning argument there. but you're supposedly coming from a religious viewpoint (hence the name ORTHOmom).
with that in mind it is rather unfortunate that you think the mentality of "it is my blog" is a valid argument. if your kids find a friend annoying is it their right to rant to all their peers about the negative qualities of that person?
i could flesh this out more but i'm tired of trying. i'm sorry you don't understand that a very basic tenent of any community connected through moral/ethical underpinnings is that we each have an obligation to ensure our overall contribution of any action is postivie.
it isn't about "my right to do x,y, or z" and it isn't about "well it isn't causing a lot of damage."
if you just wanted an outlet to rant and blow some steam off or whatever, might i suggest an old-fashioned journal and, if need be, discuss it with your husband or close friend.
anon 2:35,
Well said, in addiiton, if you wanted the input on your various opinions you could have kept your neighborhood anonymous. Their are also ways of discussing how you feel hurt and dissapointment in reference to "gashmius" in ways that are not offensive to others.
You people say that Om is asking for this. Well, i dont see the nastiness you are all showing displayed in her posts. You are all way over the line. Threats and curses? I am shocked.
anon 3:30
shame on you for lumping e/o together.
clearly you aren't reading what's being written. If you would take the time to read comments before remarking upon them you woould notice at least 2 distinct groups of critics. those doing the shocking and awful things you mentioned, and others with a far more civil approach.
Well again, EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion, thus the beauty of blogging.
Well again, EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion, thus the beauty of blogging.
You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Bickering like little children.
I grew up in the 5 Towns, will never live there ever again. The Frummy's have ruined the place. Central Avenue used to be called the Rodeo Drive of the East Coast, now its like Main Street in Queens. Plus all you have brought is all this infighting. Why can't all of you Jews just get along and stop judging everybody else. Let people live the way they want. We didn't have these problems when it was all just Modern Orthodox, middle of the road jews. How I long for those days before the 5 Towns became the new Brooklyn.
Anonymous said...
Rabbi Weiner is a musmach of Chaim Berlin and heads a Brooklyn organization that checks kashrut.
His brother is a rosh yeshiva of Torah and Science in Israel and his uncle was a rosh yeshiva of Chevron yeshiva.
While I know nothing about Rabbi Weiner's credentials, one has to wonder how he or Rabbi Kravitz rationalize endorsing this store's kashrus without having conferred with the Vaad, when they know that there have been kashrus issues raised.
My sense is that their actions are no different than those of many brooklyn kashrus agencies which regularly swoop in to replace certifications that have been removed by other agencies as a result of kashrus violations, without properly investigating the reasons for the removal of the previous certification. Kashrus is a cutthroat business and its unfortunately too common for some rabbis to offer their certification without proper investigation of the issues.
3:12 PM
OH YOU MEAN LIKE WHEN THE STAR K WHICH IS A NATIONAL HASHGACHA LIKE THE KOF-K TOOK OVER THE HASHGACHA OF CAFE K IN BROOKLYN AFTER IT WAS DROPPED BY THE O.K. ALSO A NATIONAL HASHGACHA. ITS NOT BROOKLYN ITS WORLDWIDE WAKE UP AND SMELL THE GARBAGE!
OR WHEN THE KOF-K TOOK OVER BLUE RIDGE FARMS FROM THE O.U.
BOTH THESE PLACES HAD KASHRUS VIOLATIONS. YOU ARE RIGHT THEY ARE IN BUSINESS AS IS OUR FEARLESS LEADER YOSEF EISEN.
NOTE TO THE GENTLEMEN WHO POSTED THIS , EVEN ONE OF POOR INTELLECT CAN ASK A SHAILOH IF THE VAAD IS STILL CERTIFYING GG THEN WHAT ""MAJOR"" KASHRUS VIOLATIONS COULD THERE BE THAT NEED DISCUSSING.
SEE MY POINT YOU ARE SOLELY IN RYE'S CAMP , SO IT CLOUDS YOUR JUDGEMENT.
GOOD SHABBOS
Reminder to all The Vaad statement was not about Kashruth but about halachic violations . If there were Kashruth Violations the Vaad would have stripped GG of hasgacha years ago. It would be a good idea for GG to release the file that Eisen joyfully boasts.
This would definitly make the Vaad look unreasonable according to my sources.
When the Vaad produces the chicken that supposedly started this mess and proves A. It really even existed B. that in fact it was purchased at GG. Then maybe we can get a real answer to all our questions...They CANT... so once GG took on the 2nd hechser (because they were told that they have 4 months to sell the business) the vaad attorney sought a loophole- CONTRACTUAL- violations.. Doesnst anyone with any modicum of intelligence see what is actually going on? Now the Vaad is afraid of lawsuits so they are now offering GG a "way out" so that they can APPEAR to be compromising. the "compromise" is one that no businessperson in their right mind would ever go along with. Ask your Rabbi for a copy of said letter. Enough said!!!
i saw this on another blog...VERY well stated!
Tuesday, November 21, 2006
AN OPEN LETTER to the 5 TOWNS COMMUNITY
I am saddened and appalled at the way our 5 towns Vaad has handled the Gourmet Glatt issue. I have the utmost respect for the rabbis of the Vaad; however I can not stand by idly while an injustice is being done. I have spoken to a number of rabbis on the Vaad and have been told that Mr. Bolender was not at the meeting where the Vaad decided his fate (gave the psak that he must sell the store). How is it possible that NOT ONE Rabbi on the Vaad (that signed the letter and attended the meetings) asked or insisted that Mr. Bolender have the opportunity to relay his side of the story???????????? Did the thought of putting this individual (and others supported by this store) out of business without giving him the chance to speak in front of those who are deciding his fate not cross their minds??????? How can a psak like this be enforced or even given? I know the Vaad states in their letter "It should be self-evident that such a decision was not taken lightly." However I am not sure it can get any lighter than not hearing the other side of the story. I would venture to say that if one of the rabbis on the Vaad were being accused of something they would think it is only fair and just that they get an opportunity to be heard. Why was it not done here? This is not a joke; it is the livelihood of 5 families at stake as well as an individual's reputation. The Vaad's letter also calls the acquisition of a second hashgacha an affront to the unity of the community, and states a claim that "When there is one universally recognized and accepted hashgacha in a community, the kashruth standards are clear to all. When one local store takes on multiple hashgachot on their premises, then there is a threat to the uniform standards we have all worked so hard to achieve." Yet the Vaad has a double standard, they allow their own philosophy and statements to be contradicted by a local Rav in the community who has certain "recommended stores". According to the Vaad is this not an affront to the unity of the community? Should we as a community ban him and his shul? Why is the Vaad not writing letters about him? The Vaad seems to be more concerned with the the monopoly they have over all the 5 towns stores rather than the most important issue- Halacha. If the Vaad for whatever reason feels they can't or don't want to supervise this store they don't have to. But why does it bother them so much if another expert in the area of kashrus, a competent halachik authority, a talmid chachom and an individual who has a chezkas kashrus is willing to take that responsibility on his shoulders? Halacha certainly allows this. Why are they making sure this store goes out of business? This is pure rishus (evil) and does not allow me to believe this is being done lishma (for the sake of heaven). I don't recall seeing in the Shulchan Aruch (Jewish Code of Law- written by R' Yosef karo) that all stores in the 5 towns must only be supervised by the 5 towns Vaad. The Vaad has certainly done an excellent PR job of convincing the community that they must have one standard in kashrus, however as stated previously they themselves allow a local Rav to set a second standard. Also the Vaad relies on various different kashrus organizations themselves (OU, Kof k etc.). Are they writing letters and calling for all these organizations to consolidate as well? I am calling upon our community to stand up for what is right and follow Halacha. Halacha tells us that we can shop at Gourmet Glatt under Rav Kravitz's hashgacha. I hope and pray to Hashem that we all come together as one for the sake of Heaven and for the sake of our wonderful community. It will be intriguing to see whether our holy community follows the Shulchan Aruch of Rav Yosef Karo or that of Rav Yosef Eisen. A concerned member of the community
Posted by MISHPAT26 at 7:52 PM
Wonderful Post!! let's hear it for "KASH_TRUTH"
As for two hashgochas, wasn't that RYE that gave a second hasgocha on vegetables last peasach. Obviously, if it was him, he probably doesn't have enough to do here.
Isnt RYE the Adminstrator of Kehilla Kashrut, which started out as a "2nd" Hasgacha in Brooklyn, to break the VAAD monopoly.
"Isnt RYE the Adminstrator of Kehilla Kashrut, which started out as a "2nd" Hasgacha in Brooklyn, to break the VAAD monopoly. "
6:25 PM
Curiouser and Curiouser???? Maybe that is why RYE is so dogged in his pursuit of GG..He is afraid Rabbi Kravitz will repeat RYE's history of Vaad breaking. Also, ask your rabbi to see the vaad letter requesting ( demanding) the sale of GG. Who thinks this situation is out of hand already??? maybe the DA?
Orthomom said.....Come on. You can't possibly be reading my blog and thinking that. I am certainly not judgmental about people's observance levels - find me the posts here I decry people for lax observance. I don't even decry them here for doing one thing at home and another when no one's watching - I. Don't. Care. This post was simply making an observation. And that observation is that I am not surprised that women who keep to different standards when away from the prying eye of the public will do the same for their grocery shopping
If you "don't care", then why even blog about it. You write/kvetch about it...and when you are critizised about what you write you come back by saying you "don't care" ??? Wow talk about others being hypocritical?!?!?!
The Vaads image has been tarnished .I spoke to many Kashruth authorities about this subject and they said the "Vaads ability to convey strong Kashruth has been compromised". In addition any entrepenuer trying to set up shop and invest in the 5 towns would be "crazy under these conditions".
They look like a bunch of fools
I’ve been reading you blog for a while now and I disagree with your last paragraph on this post. The only thing this community has heard from the rabbis is that GG should not be frequented. Yet the rabbis (especially Rabbi Eisen) have been silent as to the facts of this issue, the only thing the rabbis said is GG can’t be trusted, but why not? Why don’t we have to kasher out pots and pans? And if we don’t why can’t I continue to shop there? Many people in this community are doctors, lawyers or other professionals and have degrees. These people understand doctor patient privileges and attorney client privileges so that’s no excuse. Many people simply feel that this is a personality conflict and that there is no kashrus problem, and in an attempt not to undermine the rabbis they simply order from a store where they are not completely overcharged. Maybe they feel that when chicken is over $2 at every other store and under $1.60 at GG, (and we didn’t have to kasher our pots) and the store has a hechsher - it is kosher. I do not understand why you consider this a relaxation of standards and don’t make room for the argument that people are frustrated that the Vaad and Rabbi Eisen have provided no information and therefore believe the store is still kosher. So maybe they are scared to break ranks and go in and instead get it delivered. It is not necessarily a relaxation there maybe a host of other explanations – can you explain why the community is still in the dark as to what the real problems were? Can you interview Rabbi Eisen or the vaad and get some explanations? How about providing a REAL reason (in addition to emunas chacumim) that we can understand as to why this boycott is necessary!
P.S. I think Must has a point when he says your article made the point without the bikini reference, it really was maliciously gratuitous and a “holier than thou” attitude that is unnecessary.
Does anyone realize, as I do, that since the vaad cannot or will not fully explain their problem with GG, it must be because there are no kashrush isssues???????? When will we stand up and require our Rabbonim to answer our questions????
So maybe they are scared to break ranks and go in and instead get it delivered.
I understand. And I do not judge them for doing so. However, it does show that they are willing to do something in private that they are uncomfortable doing in public.
I think Must has a point when he says your article made the point without the bikini reference,it really was maliciously gratuitous and a “holier than thou” attitude that is unnecessary.
I wasn't being holier than thou - I never weighed in on whether the practice is appropriate, I persoanlly couldn't care less about people's private religious practices. That said, I will concede that the line was gratuitous.
Perhaps our community leaders should act as leaders and allow a grave mistake to be corrected, and put this chapter behind us.If the Vaad will not come clean about facts to support its position, then make peace.... This is nothing more than unchecked power acting out of line.....Chicken little!!! oh where is my Chicken???Where is the Chicken? Where is the customer who started all this, Where is the justice??
I am not a psychiatrist, however I certainly agree that people will do things in private that they will not do in public. I am guilty of this as well and I believe it is a very valid point. I would like to say that I think your coverage of the SD15 was done quite well, and many other issues you cover are done very well. I also understand that you provide facts and give us your analysis, however I think you might point out to your readers that our rabbis have asked us to boycott GG without the VAAD having to provide facts or unacceptable behavior and without telling us how long it will last? Can you explain what was wrong (did I miss that post – please point me to the month), but not trief? I analyze the article and conclude that the community was asked to boycott GG and did so – that says a tremendous amount for the 5T people blind acceptance of “daas torah”. However, as time goes on and no facts are provided and no update from the VAAD is forthcoming people are beginning to question if this is a personality conflict or a real kashrus issue. They’re probably afraid to voice these concerns in public (the break ranks sentence) so the just order it to the house. Again I am not a psychiatrist, but I think it may be a social issue of doing what the rest of the community does as opposed to doing a devious deed in the confines of their home.
Just another way to analyze this.
Please keep up your good reporting on SD15, and other 5T community posts, I think you do a wonderful job of getting the truth out to the public.
We could be socking away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in savings while living modestly.
Ortho-
Not everyone by a longshot in the 5Ts earns hundreds of thousands of dollars-probably a higher percentage in geberal in western 5T's than eastern 5T's.
Yeshiva tuition -is high at least for those who aren't pushed out by local Yeshivas. Problem is going to get much worse-since HAFTR hired RAMBAM crew headed by "my way or the highway" head who after 15 years at one institution that never took off-was lucky that another institution wanted yo eliminate weaker students ans knew who to hire to do dirty work-oh of course, if the parents earned mucho dollares the kis would be OK. You see foir Yeshovas there is a sliding scale -the more you pay the more they'll tolerate-full tuition is not enough-regular 5 figure contributions then the kids are angels but for normal ones nobody cares and look at Yeshivat Central Avenue everynight of the week-including Friday night. Although Friday night many of the kids who are Yeshivas aren't interested in,do field work in Manhattan. I guess the kids souls are at risk but they get exercise on their soles.
I personally know that RYE is afraid of Rabbi Reisman . He is the above named Rabbi who gives his own "approvals" that was mentioned in a recent post. He once called me after a party I was at that Rabbi Reisman attended and made various comments. RYE asked me specific questions about what interested Rabbi Reisman and what was said to him by the hashgacha and catering staff.
I can understand that since RYE has a big mouth and a railroad 'em style that RYe would be scared, being that he has what to hide.
A while ago someone stated that Rabbi Reisman takes no money for his approvals. But this is not so he is the offcial Rabbinic supervision of Chap A Nosh's catering at the Marina Del Rey. Does he not then supervise their store? Thats where they cook the food, that is what they told me when we did a wedding there with them.
Oscar Wilde said "When the gods wish to punish us they answer our prayers." So, be careful what you ask for. Be careful asking too many questions about how organized kashruth operates. You won't sleep very well after you get your answers.
I was in gg tonight,Sunday, and it was busy. while the home service might be up it does not appear to me that to store is empty. The damage is to the entire Jewish population. As someone who has lived here for over 25 years, I have never ever heard people speak against our beloved Rabbi's as they are now. This is so so very sad! More damage has been done by this then has been done by many of our enemies. I agree with the person who stated that kosher supervision is a business and a dirty one at that.
I really hope and pray that this ends quickly and somehow someone steps up to the plate and sees the damage and works to restore our community and trust in our Rabbi's
If RYE decides to come out with some defense for his actions now after six weeks, would you believe him?.... Lets wait and see.... In the know.... Lets see if it's the Chicken or some other bogus claim.....Brooklyn welcomes you with open arms....Go home, this town doesn't need you...
I was at a wedding last weds night. A Frum wedding,everyone was talking about the action of the VAAD and the Rabbi's letter, I would say about 1/3 of the families who were talking were shopping at GG. Some who never ever shopped there before wanted to show support.
I do agree with someone here who called it Mafial like and that is bad, very bad
A very sad day for the Jewish community of ours
Like some business using treif equipment and Eisen catching it but doing nothing.
And if he did do something every time he caught something either we'd have no where to shop or the community would run him out on a rail for doing his job . . . hmmm sort of like its doing now.
I just deleted a slew of comments that were way out of line in their name-calling. Also, (not that this surprises anyone) they were all from the same IP. I will continue to do so. Name-calling of anyone involved in this conflict is not allowed.
Mom of four should enforce freedom of speech, I dont believe the post should have been deleted of a Masgiach or worker for a Vaad supervised store saying that Eisen has seen many of Violations but looks the other way.
My blog, my rules. I outlined them a long time ago. There's open discussion, and then there's name-calling. The comments I deleted were way over the line in their mean-spiritedness. That's ground for deletion.
Does anyone have a copy of Rabbi Lichtman's letter which is posted on the front window of GG? It sounds pretty important but it has never been produced in public.
I recieved this letter Via fax from Rabbi Lichtman .
How can I have it put on orthomom.please send detailed instructions
Like some business using treif equipment and Eisen catching it but doing nothing.
"And if he did do something every time he caught something either we'd have no where to shop or the community would run him out on a rail for doing his job . . . hmmm sort of like its doing now."
12:38 AM
The community should not run him out of town if he was doing his job properly and halachically. A personal vendetta does not speak well of a mashgiach ( or of any Rabbi, in general) Please insist that your rabbi' see the letter outlining the demand to sell GG to a third party. The congregations may find it interesting that the Vaad is now a "business broker."
it is obvious that our Rabbonim probably did not know the whole story. GG was not even allowed to present their side... and since kashrush was never the issue.....what was the issue presented to the vaad at that meeting?
If more of us took an active role in the vaad situation it would be resolved quickly.. I, personally, have placed calls to both my rabbi and the vaad.. neither one will answer any questions that I have.. SO WHAT CAN WE DO TO RESOLVE THIS HORRENDOUS SITUATION????
I think it would help a great deal if everyone in the community got together and talked the problem to death. Don't actually do anything, like when YILC pulled out of the Vaad 5 years ago, just talk, talk talk. That'll learn 'em.
I went into GG and asked for a copy of Rabbi Lichtmans letter-they gave me a copy-go in and ask for one. There is also a copy of a letter from Rabbi Lerner-a former Vaad mashgiach who resigned his position when he refused to lie to corroborate RYE's allegations-I was shocked to read this letter! I was told that Rabbi Lerner is a very trustworthy individual that was endorsed by the OU's Rabbi Belsky!
These will help against the naysayers. Its amazing that they have not been published anywhere. Can someone post them here?
Anonymous said...
The thing that I don't get is that none of the rabbis on the VAAD seem to be on the same page with this whole fiasco. Some still say it is ok to shop there, while others say you can't??? Whats the deal???
November 27, 2006 8:04:00 AM PST
Anonymous said...
Is it ok to shop at Gourmet Glatt again?
November 27, 2006 9:55:00 AM PST
Anonymous said...
I never stopped! I knew of Rav Kravitz from my "snowbird" days in Miami-if I could eat there-why not here? The Vaad has gone too far-when will the Rabbonim grow some "..." and tell him what they and their kehillahs want, instead of the other way around. S. Stern
Rabbi Kravitz's hechser was always outstanding... if yu ate in miami or mexico under his hachser you can certainly feel confident of his hechser at GG...
Rabbi Yechezkel Lichtman
533 Hicksville Road
Far Rockaway, New York 11691
Recently, the Vaad of the Five Towns removed their Kashrus Certification from the Gourmet Glatt Emporium Supermarket in Cedarhurst. The owners engaged the services of Rabbi Yehuda Kravitz and his staff of mashgichim to provide the Kashrus Supervision and Certification under the K-1 agency. Some Rabbis of the Vaad have been advising their congregants not to patronize the Gourmet Glatt Emporium as a sign of solidarity with the Vaad, and indeed, business is down. There have been Rabbonic pronouncements and exhortations in the local print media to “follow the Vaad”-though no rationalization for their position is offered. No responsible person has ever suggested that the Kashrus at Gourmet Glatt is compromised in any way, or that the supervision of Rabbi Kravitz is in any way inferior to that of the Vaad. The community at large is left with the choice of “marching with the Vaad” or shopping where they please, kashrus NOT being the issue.
Now, I enjoy the personal friendship of many of the local Rabbonim, and there is no question as to the integrity of all of the Vaad membership. However, and with all due respect, I must state that they have committed a grave error, and it remains for the community to extricate them from this predicament.
It is beyond the scope of the Vaad’s mandate to deal with anything other than Kashrus. It is beneath the dignity of the Rabbonim to dictate to storekeepers on political grounds. It is the role of the Rabbis to serve the community and advance their interests. Without a doubt, the community is better off with a variety of kosher stores to shop at, and to the competitive advantage of the consumer. The community CANNOT abide a Vaad that is political, that acts arbitrarily and capriciously, and that is autocratic and unreasonable.
The present situation is harmful to an important business in the Five Towns, and will discourage other businesses from venturing here. But it also threatens the future of the Vaad, who may lose their credibility, as people come to understand what has really transpired here.
The owners of Gourmet Glatt have indicated their readiness to meet the requirements of the Vaad for the reinstatement of their certification. This should be pursued and brought to a satisfactory resolution expeditiously! Perhaps if the Vaad saw that the community continues to patronize Gourmet Glatt and relies on Rabbi Kravitz and the kashrus supervision of the K-1 agency, they would have the incentive to act and rectify their mistake.
To those who read these remarks, I ask you that you not be distracted by the question “Who is Rabbi Lichtman anyway?”, but rather, heed my words, and respond with fair-mindedness and good-will-in the spirit that these remarks were made and with courage and good sense.
Respectfully, Rabbi Y Lichtman
is there a date on the letter?
Who is Rabbi Lichtman?
no date, however since it references post-vaad hechser and the subsequent boycott....it has to be after nov 1st.. call the rabbi yourself...i am sure he will be happy to discuss the situation with anyone personally ( unlike the Vaad Rabbonim who will not return any phone calls.)
Rabbi Lichtman lives in Far Rock-he was the Rav in Skokie for many many years and is very well respected by the Rabbonim
Ask your RAV this question:
What should a person do, even a RAV, if he was given a Hazmana, a summons, to appear before Harav Dovid Feintsein?
Should he go? Or should hold himself higher and above the level of Harov Dovid and ignore the Hazmonah?
OH, my mistake TWO HASMONAS.
Could you be specific about the hasmonas you speak about. We already have a precedent here where a rabbi has thumbed his nose at the Israel Bet Din. It appears that rabbonim are good at giving decrees, ex cathedra, but not in responding to them.
Anonymous said...
No Rabbi will my friend. They may all be fine pulpit Rabbis but to be a foodservice Rabbi as they are reffered to is something else. They mistakenly feel they have found their Saviour in Yosef Eisen. they are wrong. Many Rabbis you may remember thought they had founf their Saviour in Shabetzai Tzvi or in Jesus. Who knows how far RYEMania will take him.
Rabbis wake up and wash your hands of Yosef Eisen. He is a fraud and a cheat. Any Rabbi willing to discourse or discuss this is free to leave me even an anonymous email. I will be glad to provide you with detailed and documented proof.
November 27, 2006 12:32:00 PM PST
tzaddik1 said...
Wether Rabbi eisen and the Vaad are wrong or GG is wrong is not the issue. If they can't get along let the Vaad just drop the hashgocha and let GG get a new one. The problem is that the Vaad was forcing him to sell the store with no other recourse. what is the Vaad the mafia? If this continues the store will fail along with the parnassah of many families. Having a unified hashgocha in a neighborhood is great but unrealistic. The rabbis on the Vaad are upset that their authority was usurped. Get over it and move on. The split in the community is pitiful and the rabbonim are to blame.
November 27, 2006 3:16:00 PM PST
kosherman said...
This is crazy the Vaad doesn't own any of these stores they just supervise the kashrus of them. How in the world can they force a sale?? To me that is unheard of. If I open a store in the 5 towns and I'm a nephew of s/o on the OU I can't use the OU? (On a side note) I know they wouldn't dare come in to this neighborhood b/c like the mafia everyone has their own territories. This is sick. It truly turned from keeping the Torah to just making money. Unfortunately this is a business like any other.
November 27, 2006 5:36:00 PM PST
hockmeister said...
Is it public record what the VAAD makes? What they charge? salaries of employees? maybe Kosherman is right its a business and the consumer should be cognizent of different facts.
If su[persol for whatever reason decided that after their contract with the vaad is up they wanna bring in the KOF K- Would the Vaad all of a sudden tell ppl to stop shopping there and claim they don't trust the KOF K???
I should hope the average kosher consumer is smart enough to see through this BS.
In general, I've been comfortable with the Five Towns Vaad. They have a reputation for providing satisfactory kashrus supervision services. During the furor that erupted over their merger with the Far Rockaway Vaad a few years ago, I supported both Vaads efforts at creating unity among the various sectors of the large orthodox community on the south shore The revised kashrus standards that were applied to many of the stores and restaurants formerly supervised by the Five Towns Vaad was a positive development and hardly worthy of the excitement it aroused. Much of ithis excitement was a manifestation of anti Far Rockaway bias and the fear of the encrouching influence of the right wing. While I'm hardly a member of that segment of the community, I believe that kashrus standards need to be uniform - if it was necessary in Far Rockaway then it's also necassary on Central Avenue. Case closed.
Unfortunately, I'm not impressed with the manner in which the Vaad has handled the current affair with Gourmet Glatt. By way of disclosure, I'm in no way connected to the ownership of this establishment nor am I a frequent consumer. I've mainly followed events through the local media and word of mouth.
The Vaad has every right to withdraw it's kashrus certification when it believes that a serious problem exists without sufficient remedy. No one disputes this right. In fact it's their obligation. But was that really the situation here. or is the Vaad merely attempting to send everyone a message that they're the undisputed kings of kashrus in the Five Towns and anyone who risks to challenge their supremacy in this area risks being placed out of business. I wonder
I believe that kashrus standards need to be uniform - if it was necessary in Far Rockaway then it's also necassary on Central Avenue. Case closed.
Could have just as easily be the following logically:
I believe that kashrus standards need to be uniform - if it's not necassary on Central Avenue then it's not necessary in Far Rockaway then . Case closed.
s/o on the OU I can't use the OU? (On a side note) I know they wouldn't dare come in to this neighborhood b/c like the mafia everyone has their own territories
especially when the same person is the President of both.
Please read Rabbi Weiners letter above very disturbing .
There seems to be a number of conflicting interests in this whole story.
Can someone post Rabbi Lerner's letter which was previously referenced?
I was at GG last night and a customer was asking for access to that letter. When I left, they still hadn't agreed that such a letter existed. If this gentleman customer (that I spoke to with regard to this blog) is present, please let us know how that conversation ended up.
When are you people going to wake up to the fact that the ra-bonim in our community have created a real mess and a spectacular chillul hashem.It's time to ignore them and go back to GG.This is in no way daas torah.It is nothing but viciousness and bullying.
the vaad has a copy of the letter. it is written in hebrew script. call the vaad office and ask them for the letter written by Rabbi Lerner..HOwever, since they do not answer their phones nor do they return phone calls...good luck!!!!
Well I'll give you one guess as to which Rabbi thumbed his nose at Reb Dovid Feinstein, not once but twice.
tzaddik1 said...
Wether Rabbi eisen and the Vaad are wrong or GG is wrong is not the issue. If they can't get along let the Vaad just drop the hashgocha and let GG get a new one. The problem is that the Vaad was forcing him to sell the store with no other recourse. what is the Vaad the mafia? If this continues the store will fail along with the parnassah of many families. Having a unified hashgocha in a neighborhood is great but unrealistic. The rabbis on the Vaad are upset that their authority was usurped. Get over it and move on. The split in the community is pitiful and the rabbonim are to blame.
November 27, 2006 3:16:00 PM PST
kosherman said...
This is crazy the Vaad doesn't own any of these stores they just supervise the kashrus of them. How in the world can they force a sale?? To me that is unheard of. If I open a store in the 5 towns and I'm a nephew of s/o on the OU I can't use the OU? (On a side note) I know they wouldn't dare come in to this neighborhood b/c like the mafia everyone has their own territories. This is sick. It truly turned from keeping the Torah to just making money. Unfortunately this is a business like any other.
November 27, 2006 5:36:00 PM PST
hockmeister said...
Is it public record what the VAAD makes? What they charge? salaries of employees? maybe Kosherman is right its a business and the consumer should be cognizent of different facts.
If su[persol for whatever reason decided that after their contract with the vaad is up they wanna bring in the KOF K- Would the Vaad all of a sudden tell ppl to stop shopping there and claim they don't trust the KOF K???
I should hope the average kosher consumer is smart enough to see through this BS.
November 27, 2006 5:43:00 PM PST
5 towns yid said...
Ok where to begin, first off regarding the rabbi Its RABBI REISMAN. He told someone I know who called him from overseas (I'm not sure how they got to him), that Mauzone is not on the agudas yisroel list. My acquaintance told me Reisman made it sound as if he were referring to the Agudas Yisroel of America. Typical of Resiman in my opinion. When confronted he said well Mauzone has only one mashgiach in the facitlity, WELL HELLO McReisman !! so do all your " approved " places some have even less since there is a mashgiach for veggie checking but not full time and the owners have the keys! So thats my piece on HARAv Reisman.
Regarding the Vaad I have a friend who was working on opening a food establishment ( to keep things vague) in the 5 towns. RYE named him a price for hashgacha. My friend said but I know place 1 pays amount A , place 2 pays amount b for the same type of store why are you charging me so much more. Them RYE started to deal with him, this isn't how its done Rabbi Eisen. Formulas are used not your wallet.
November 27, 2006 8:20:00 PM PST
hockmeister said...
5 towns yid are you serious? Thats crazy!! Is Rabbi Yosef Eisen even a 5 towner or do we have an ousider running our community?
November 27, 2006 9:11:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
From what I've heard Rabbi Eisen is actually Rabbi reisman's puppet. So eventhough R' Reisman is techinically "not part of the Vaad" he in reality runs the Vaad.
So hockmeister allow me to allay your fears one of our own is running our community (to the ground). hashem Yaazor!
November 27, 2006 9:15:00 PM PST
punk27 said...
5 towns yid_ RYE does use a formula. the formula is to make as much money as possible.
November 28, 2006 7:59:00 AM PST
Anonymous said...
I heard the 2 sides are very close to cutting a deal. Any updates?
November 28, 2006 2:20:00 PM PST
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Reismans son owns the Fish Dept in Brachs certainly a conflict of interest.
This sounds fishy to me.
Orthomom: I love you.
5 towns: I am sick of you.
Bikini and Tichel combo: I thought I invented you.
Why can’t we just be happy when people choose to observe a mitzvah?
Yes, I am a community outsider but from what I read on this blog, everyone in the 5 towns is obsessed with reputation and “looking frum.” But that is me, simply observing, as an outsider, who has spent a bunch of time on Central Avenue.
OM I am your biggest fan, keep it up.
Yes, I am a community outsider but from what I read on this blog, everyone in the 5 towns is obsessed with reputation and “looking frum.” But that is me, simply observing, as an outsider, who has spent a bunch of time on Central Avenue.
OM I am your biggest fan, keep it up.
Woah, how judgmental can you get. We dont obsess about "looking frum" WE ARE FRUM. We practice our mitzvos religiously. We daven, learn, and are absolutely serious about our Kashrus, tzedakah, and Gemilas Chessed, Bikur Cholim and Tehillim. So go snooping in someone elses' community.
Here is my theory. If RYE gets his way and pushes the Bolenders out of town, then proceeds to pull his weight and do this to another store at which point our Rabbonim realize that they made this huge mistake in trusting and taking the word of RYE. And at this time they realize that they should have trusted their instincts and pushed throught he proposed agreement with GG with or without RYE's approval, then what.
They can't go backwards, they can't undo the damage they would have caused this family of 4, their respective families and their children and future granchildren. They can't make things right again and undo the damage. This is the point. Who here is for peace and the continuity and respect of our community and who here is out for his own kovod? Is this person the right person to head the Kashrus organization in this community. If he doesn't listen to the Rabbonim who hired him, if he doesn't have kovod for his employers, if he doesn't understand the needs of this community. If he doesn't have enough Kovod for the gedolei hador, or for the accepted Rabbonim of the city who have issued hasmonos that he ignored, how can we in all honesty trust and respect this person.
Why should he demand and expect kovod from us when he thumbed his nose to a Rav who has the respect of our entire community plus all the frum communities of the city and state? What 'Onesh" or consequence does he deserve for his actions? when such a highly respected Rav calls him in to discuss this situation, who is he to refuse to discuss it. Does he refuse to discuss it because he is so stubborn or because he knows he is wrong and will receive a psak that goes against his wishes?
In either case it doesn't sound good for him, and a decision from Harav Feinstein could have helped our Rabbonim come to an equitable conclusion weeks ago. Do we trust a Rabbi who refuses to ask a Shailo from a distinguished paskin such as Harav Feinstein. If he is right what is he afraid of, the answer must be he is wrong and therefore he refuses to go.
Then if he is wrong, and our Rabbeim keep him here in this position to destroy this family, he is leading a reign of terror. Who will be his next victim?
"Reismans son owns the Fish Dept in Brachs certainly a conflict of interest."
Somehow i do not think this tidbit is true.
I ASSUME THIS WAS POSTED ABOUT RYE
Why should he demand and expect kovod from us when he thumbed his nose to a Rav who has the respect of our entire community plus all the frum communities of the city and state? What 'Onesh" or consequence does he deserve for his actions? when such a highly respected Rav calls him in to discuss this situation, who is he to refuse to discuss it. Does he refuse to discuss it because he is so stubborn or because he knows he is wrong and will receive a psak that goes against his wishes?
In either case it doesn't sound good for him, and a decision from Harav Feinstein could have helped our Rabbonim come to an equitable conclusion weeks ago. Do we trust a Rabbi who refuses to ask a Shailo from a distinguished paskin such as Harav Feinstein. If he is right what is he afraid of, the answer must be he is wrong and therefore he refuses to go.
Then if he is wrong, and our Rabbeim keep him here in this position to destroy this family, he is leading a reign of terror. Who will be his next victim?
I can not believe that RYE was summoned to a Rabbi and did not go, I'm amazed that it may have been Rav Feinstien. Can you please elaborate.
Thanks
RYE is scared of Reisman since he has such a big mouth and some peoples ears including Moshe (Mishkowits, I will need to confirm the last name spelling etc.) Since Moish who is on the vaads layman board or the like and holds many of the purse strings, does daven in Reismans Agudah.
Though Moish will play stupid when asked of his power and reach etc in the Vaad.
RYE however hates Reisman and is only his puppet via strings whispered into Moish's ears by Reisman.
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