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Wednesday, December 06, 2006

No Compassion

The Jewish Press publishes a response to last week's powerful letter (which I posted on here). All I can say is, what a disappointment. I thought the fact that they published a letter that actually summons up some compassion for those Orthodox men who have homosexual urges showed that they understand what a sad situation many of these men face. However, it is clear from this week's response that this is not the case. The writer of the column shows that she lacks some basic sympathy for her fellow man who might be in a predicament that she will never face. A particularly obnoxious excerpt, in reference to the very real problem raised by the original letter-writer of marrying of "rehabilitated" gay men to unknowing women who then suffer the consequences:
“It is the inherent desire of every woman to be desired by her husband.” With all due respect to your concern, this is like saying that every woman who has a baby automatically turns into a loving and caring mother. Certainly, most women need to be loved and desired (and appreciated) by their men. Yet, (as some of the letters to this column have attested), there are women whose love and respect for their man is powerful enough to keep their relationship intact, thriving and satisfying – regardless of the struggles of their SSA-suffering husbands. Naturally, the strength of the foundation of such a relationship is dependent on mutual openness and honesty at the outset.
"Mutual openness and honesty". Right. I'm quite sure that all men who are "rehabilitated" from having any homosexual urges, or who fight these urges, are fully up-front with their prospective spouses. In an era where the shidduch world has reached such an unfortunate nadir that stories are common of families hiding from prospective machutonim whether the husband ever wore a blue shirt or the wife ever wore short sleeves, just try to convince me that a prospective groom's sexual attraction to other men is ever mentioned. Not. Gonna. Happen.

As Dag, who first directed our attention to this exchange, said in regard to the response: "The Jewish Press answer to the Homosexuality question is as bad as the question was good".


Blogger DAG said...

This was just sad.

9:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow that was bad.the whole letter, from the sanctimony to the "I have never had your priblem - Thank God". The lack of compassion is so shocking. especially as the column writer presents herself as a crisis counseler. whatever. the JP is pathetic. did you need this toprove it to you, OM?

9:16 PM  
Blogger RaggedyMom said...

As soon as I saw this letter in the paper, and then saw how several blogs got behind the writer in such a supportive way, I cringed inside because I just knew that the JP would tear this guy apart the following week, just based on the previous "chronicles" dealing with SSA. Sigh.

9:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, the answer was a synopsis of many of the comments posted here originally in regard to the letter/subject matter. It is up front and telling it like it is. The ‘gay agenda’ message is so out there that it needs to be countered. The answer is right in line with the torah’s itinerary.

9:43 PM  
Blogger DAG said...

Anon 9:43 is this either a Torah (or a scientific) idea?

Full psychosexual maturity renders one capable of entering into a long-term intimate committed relationship with another adult of the opposite sex. A protest of “I can’t” or “I don’t want to” is indicative of failure in attaining that level of psychosexual maturation – the ‘highest’ level from a biological/scientific perspective, from which one has been diverted in childhood.


9:51 PM  
Blogger FunkyJew82 said...

I completely agree. No man will ever reveal his ssa to a prospective wife. It is completely unfair to her; why would she put herself in that situation???

This "mutual openness and honesty" must be referring to AFTER the husband has already lied to her and "tricked" her into marrying him.

P.S. I've never had respect for JP anyway.

10:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow, it think i am going to throw up. i am at a loss to even know where to begin! can this woman even acknowledge that homosexuality is real? can she even begin to empathize with a fellow human being who is locked in a struggle (remember: the man clearly stated that the act is wrong, and therefore he is choosing celibacy)? she represents so much of what is wrong with the orthodox community today. she is the woman who sees no anorexic children, only kids who are rebellious or "off the derech." she sees no wife being beaten, only a woman who deserves it. she sees no drug or alcohol dependency, only people too weak to deserve help. there is a gay agenda out there, one would be a fool to ignore it. but this man is hardly supporting or espousing it! in fact, if a pro-gay organization got a hold of this guy, they would rip him to shreds the way this woman did! if she is a counselor, holy cow, i would run from her office screaming. oh, and can she possibly be saying that a woman can hold a loveless marriage together simply if she is strong enough? what? if she truly believes, as she states, that a healthy home life can prevent such evils as homosexuality, then i can think of no more warm and loving home than where a wife loves but is not loved. yeah, that sounds healthy. sign me up. lady, get your head out of the sand or whatever other dark place you have stuck it.

10:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And so the predictable JP-bashing commences. First of all, to say "the Jewish Press responded" shows real ignorance. It's a COLUMNIST. It's not like this guy wrote a letter to the Jewish Press and they responded with an editorial. If "Dear Abby" gives an answer you don't like, do you say "What a stupid response from the Chicago Tribune"? Of course not. I think the Jewish Press deserves credit for discussing issues no other Orthodox publication goes near, and just because we don't agree with the take of a particular columnist (or even with the paper itself in terms this or that editorial) shouldn't be an excuse for tearing the paper apart. And when all is said and done, it is an Orthodox paper, so it only makes sense that a columnist of theirs would respond to an issue like this in a non-compromising manner. The Torah calls homosexuality an abomination, and our Sages down theough the ages have unanimously agreed that it is an unacceptable expression of human sexuality. Don't like it? It's just so,,,fundamentalist? Then stop calling yourselves Orthodox Jews. It's often hard to tell with bloggers like Orthomom and many who respond just where their liberalism ends and their Judaism begins (or vice versa).

10:35 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

And so the predictable JP-bashing commences.

And so the predictable wagon-circling begins.

If you would stop throwing the words "toevah" or (gasp) "liberal" out like yesterday's garbage, you might take a breather and READ THE POST. For example, are you telling me that you think an Orthodox paper's stance on homosexuality is at all relevant as to whether this columnist should be dismissing the plight of the many women unwittingly married off to men who have "SSA"'s? Your rant has nothing to do with this post. Hope it felt good, though.

10:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What’s all the kvetching about? The answer was brilliant. It systematically and clearly addresses all the issues raised by the letter-writer. So it lacks the sympathetic touch. And where exactly has sympathy gotten us? Our misplaced sympathy is why amalek runs amok to this very day.

10:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Our misplaced sympathy is why amalek runs amok to this very day."

Right. Our misplaced sympathy for "teens at risk" is why the problem exploded well before anyone aside from a few stalwart tzaddikim like chezi goldberg z'l showed these kids any compassion whatseover.

It has nothing to do with sympathy.

Om is raising a completely different issue which the columnist is completely lying about in response.

The women who are tricked into marriage are fooled. Their lives are often ruined. The unwillingness to face facts is going to get us nowhere.

Marrying gay men off to unknowing women is not the answer. I dont know if the answer is, as teh first gay letter-writer says, to live celibate lifestyles. But at least were being hinest with ourselves.

10:59 PM  
Blogger Ayelet said...

Don't you just love how she offers up "women whose love and respect for their man is powerful enough to keep their relationship intact, thriving and satisfying" as sacrificial lambs so that SSA men can pretend that they don't exist?

Ever since Rachel Bluth retired, I am repeatedly nauseated by the responses to the chronicles letters. Most of them run along the lines of: Yeah, you're in a hard spot, suck it up and daven and Hashem will help you. Either that or it's: You are totally off the mark so shut up.

12:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Check out UOJ's blog. A lawsuit was filed today on behalf of a minor alleging abuse at the hands of Kolko during the 2003-04 school year. It's downright nauseating.


12:51 AM  
Blogger Jack Steiner said...

The columnist "Rachel" is an ignorant moron. I don't bandy words about, but she is an embarrassment. Her little rant reminds me of the story of the Emperor and His New Clothes. She is just parading naked ignorance.

Proof positive: If G-d had intended one to resign to his “state of homosexuality” and to accept it as his “fate,” the Torah would have provided guidelines in how to deal with the challenge

Or this is proof that she and others need to concentrate on their learning. They might have missed something.

In any case, the suggestion that all life is a struggle so you just deal with your problems is more than a little distressing. I hope that in her time of need she is shown more compassion than she exhibits here.

1:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did u expect any better from the Klassless Jewish Press??

7:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone who expects anything more than a 1972 Borough Park mentality from anything in the Jewish Press is naive.

10:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While I stopped reading the Jewish Press long ago and agree that this columnist (along with a few others I could cite!) is out of touch, I think we're all grappling with a paradigm of sexuality that is somewhat unique to our times.

The paradigm that has been introduced over the past fifty years is that specific sexual appetites are an integral component of our personalities and that, barring harm to another, we are in some way diminished if we do not act upon those desires.

The "gay agenda" is only one small part of this; look at the changes in attitudes toward premarital sex, extra-marital sex, etc, within the general secular culture. Does that mean that inappropriate or undesirable sexual behavior never occurred in previous generations, even within our own communities? Of course not! But it was not an "entitlement" or considered a worthy foundation on which to build your life.

Contrast our reaction if we were told that someone has an overwhelming desire to eat lobster. We would probably consider the columnist's reaction *overly* sympathetic! We have been culturally conditioned to believe that appetites for food *can* be overcome, but that most sexual appetites *cannot* and *should not* be denied.

Please note: These comments are not a response to the obvious painful situation in which many Jewish men and women find themselves. From my experience and reading, it appears that there is a great deal of variation in the strength and nature of SSA; some individuals are able to "overcome" the issue with davening and determination; others need professional help; for some, there is no effective solution.

11:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think so many people are missing the key points of the original article:
1) while homosexual desires are real to some (again, not touching the issue of born-in or learned), they are forbidden to ACT upon, just as it is forbidden to act upon lust for another man's wife, lust for your sibling, your donkey, etc...
2)marrying a man with SSA to an unknowing woman is WRONG. this does not cure a man of SSA, and it certainly doesn't lay the foundations for a healthy home.
3) there is room for compassion--the man who wrote the original letter is struggling here people, and he is struggling the correct way: by not acting on his desires. he should have our compassion, not our condemnation. if a drug addict checks him/herself into a rehab clinic, admitting they have a problem, wanting help, do we help them straighten out his or her life? or do we throw bibles and sharp words?
ask yourself: what if this man was your child? would you want to help them or throw them away? unfortunately, judging by so many at-risk/lost children out there who feel they cannot go home again, i would say there is a significant chunk of people who would throw them away.
compassion without limit is foolishness. but so is harshness. remember, hashem himself deals strictness with his left hand--the weaker hand--and compassion with the right--the stronger.

12:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I completely agree with 12:12. it's not that the orginal letter-writer wants our society/community to condone homosexual behavior. He, himself does not and is therefore living in abstinence. He just wants us all to have compassion for him...I respect him tremendously for his courage and willpower. As a community need to understand that even if homosexuality is wrong, it is not a made up thing and to force these men to marry innocent women is wrong as well. It will not change them and will only hurt this woman and family.

1:32 PM  
Blogger Orthonomics said...

Here is a man who is fighting a fight against a yetzer that most of us can never understand and he gets blasted because he has not been cured of the yetzer? My goodness.

For those who agree with the response: would you volunteer to marry your daughter to a man suffering from this? I certainly wouldn't. And, I happen to be in the camp that believes it may be possible to "reorient" a person. But, for crying out loud, let the reorientation meet it's successful end first, where the reoriented person suffers from such a desire to marry and raise a healthy family that he pursues goes to pursue a shidduch with desire.

3:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is the orignal letter writer here (I know I can't prove that so I'm going to leave it at that - I know I am).

This last thread finally motivated me to write to clarify something.

While I appreciate those trying to evoke empathy for me, that is NOT what I wrote the letter for.

Nor did I write the letter for the catharsis of relating my experience - which is why I gave the barest of details. The bed I sleep in is the one I made.

I don't think the Jewish Press, especially Dear Rachel's column is the place to look for either things.

I wrote it to engender serious discussion in the Orthodox community about the reality that is homosexuality within their ranks.

And based on this blog it looks like they have.

4:11 PM  
Blogger ByTheBay said...

Ugh, the editor's response to that moving letter makes me want to cry.

"It is the inherent desire of every woman to be desired by her husband."

Yeah, except for those of us who are lesbians!

6:29 PM  
Blogger DAG said...

Azehu gibor, hacovash es Yitzro....a man who can defeat his yetzer and chose a life of Torah...even when that means he will remains celibate his entire life is a person I have a lot of respect for....

So do we believe that 4:11 is orginal writer?

6:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i believe he is. why would i have reason not to? either way, he's right, as are a few of the other writers--we as a community tend to keep our heads in the sand until the issue is monumental (examples: at risk teens, eating disorders amongst girls, spousal abuse...). pretending homosexuality isn't real, that it is some weird isolated weakness that can be cured simply by sexual relations with a wife, is ridiculous, but that seems to be what a lot of orthodox want to believe. it makes it a problem that is "his" and not "ours," thereby removing any responsibility we as a community have. i was a teacher in an orthodox school before having my first child, and i use that as a reference point for how our community deals with not-so-pretty issues. and i can tell you first hand of the problems our kids are facing, yet they truly feel there is no place for them to go. people are quick to say "oh, she is just wild" or "well, her mother lets her read secular books, that's why she is ____." this allows people to walk away from the problem, thinking it won't follow them into their own home. i wouldn't wish homosexuality (or any other devastating issue a family can face) on my worst enemy. but isn't ignoring the problem just as bad?

7:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the message that the letter writer sent was not a good message for those men struggling with SSA. The men out there that are struggling with SSA in isolation need to hear the message that the Dear Rachel columnist provided in her response, and NOT the message that the author provided.

But I do ache for the emotional hurt that the author and other men like him feel.

1:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so you think that the men with SSA should be told that the best thing they can do is marry a unsuspecting woman knowing they cannot give her the love she deserves all the while they are to quietly suffer alone. hmmm. i'm sure your "ache" for him runs very, very deep

3:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's put compassion where it belongs- struggling frum men who do NOT get married.

The writer obviously only now realizes the damage he brought to a family. Yes, he's championing for the frum world to stop promoting that that these guys get married, and at the same time is not promoting the gay agenda. This is an important message that will hopefully make an impact to prevent future marraiges such as these, while also, letting these SSA strugglers a place in the frum community as members who keep this mitzvah (as all others) to the best of their ability but remain alone.
For this , he deserves credit, BUT do not forget his wife and children that he destroyed( whom I personally know and have suffered terribly). He's not such a tzadik.

6:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ANON 3:19PM,

I'm not advocating that men with SSA marry an unsuspecting woman! Please don't misunderstand. On the contrary, I believe that men with SSA should go for the appropriate therapy and if it works for them, then look for a wife, and be completely upfront about their past.

The message that I felt the author was giving, that I believe should not be given to men with SSA, is that therapy doesn't work and that it's better to face what he claims to be reality. I think men with SSA should be encourage to seek therapy, just as a men and women with alocholism are encouraged to seek therapy.

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

on the comment of 6:50--
i agree, we cannot forget the silent victims in this case, the man's wife (and presumably, children). while the writer's anguish is clear, and while he deserves compassion and support, to be caught up in only seeing his side of the sad, sad story is missing a huge chunk. multiple lives can be ruined by failure to acknowledge SSA. i don't think, however, that the writer was fishing for sympathy at the cost of ignoring the other victims. his objective was clear: wake up the community to the reality of SSA, wake up the sufferers of SSA to seek help if it can be found, and to stop the shameful practice of marrying off gays to unsuspecting women. the fact that i feel for the writer does not mean i cannot feel for the woman and the children. this is a multi-faceted tragedy.

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