Kosher Classes at Gourmet Glatt?
Cute. Gourmet Glatt tries to position itself as the kashrut leader in the community with an ad (left) for "a unique opportunity - a presentation of NIKUR - Halacha L'Maaseh". Gotta love it. Some supermarkets do cooking demonstrations, Gourmet Glatt shows its customers how to do their own home deveining and defatting.Note the ad on the bottom of the page for Gourmet Glatt's "cash and carry" specials touting "Empire chicken legs by the sealed case - $1.39 lb"
By the sealed and hologrammed case, I'm sure.
posted by orthomom at 12:06 AM
210 Comments:
i think its "cute" that the vaad tries to position themselves as the ONLY kashrus leader.
I also think its "cute" that you have taken it upon yourself to join in the stoning of a family business, and destroy peoples parnassah.
Did your rav tell people to post fliers around your neighborhood to not buy at GG? If not, then how do you explain this blog?
Remember, what comes around goes around. My brocho to you is that one day, you get to feel whats its like for a your neighbors to activily try to ruin your life.
My mother's favorite expression is What goes around comes around.. I grew up with it and see it in action everyday... the good generally triumph even if it is not always in the way we see it to be.. HaShem provides and sees all.
ditto ditto, what goes around comes around!!
Mom of 4 -Did you do your due dilegence on Rabbi Askenazy and Steinmetz? They are both authorities on nikkor,melicha etc in the World.
Agreed!Lack of class on behalf of Mom of 4. Please retract your comments
Ditto! Momof4-did you know that RYE gave his shiur on "bugs" at GG and that these "nikkur" shiurim are a regular thing at GG? Did you know that Rabbi Mondel (the OU meat maven) was trained at GG? Call the OU and ask Rabbi Belsky how many of his mashgichim trained under Rabbi Ashkenazy. Treiboring and nikkur is a dying " art "-the industry NEEDS more bochorim to be trained! Check your facts momof4-it's a good thing you are not a reporter that is actually held responsible for reporting the facts!! Stop stirring the pot-unless of course YOU have a horse in this race.
Yeah Momof4! You're going down!.....wait a second, I'm not that one guy who just just posted 6 comments in a row; lemme change the tune a bit.
I think what you're all (should I take out the 'all'?) missing here is that OM is not questioning the qualifications of R' Kravitz, Steinmetz or Ashkenazy but rather the venue. Do you not see the irony here??? It reminds me of when Torah Temimah sponsored a seminar on sexual abuse in the Orthodox community right after the whole Kolko scandal broke loose.
Please retract your comments
Retract my comments?? I certainly don't see any comments worth retracting here.
Check your facts momof4-it's a good thing you are not a reporter that is actually held responsible for reporting the facts!!
Again - I don't see any "facts" that I have reported here.
OM - It looks like you've woken the mighty one-man bolender fan club from his slumber.
Without taking sides on the issue, isn't GG in the process of working things out with the Vaad? Wouldn't have made sense for them to hold off a bit on something like this until their relationship has been mended?
I haven't posted anything in a long time, because it just wasn't worth my time and energy.
What about the first 6 anonymous comments above. (Of, course they're not yours - they're from 6 different people)
To anon 10:19, you are right , I checked with my sources and concluded that is was bad timing and they wished they could have withdrawn it from all papers-some had gone to press. All in all I believe that the classes were strictly intended to be a service for people interested in the art of Nikkor -nothing more than that.
anon 12:49
who are you kidding??? you really believe that?
NoBlindFaith:
Cool down. You try to defend GG by saying that "Empire announced that they were changing their packaging to whole bags, so that only consumers should separate the chickens and know for sure that they are getting the Empire brand." Well Empire only did that because GG mislabled cheaper chickens as Empire chickens. I happen to not be anti GG, but responding to you makes me seem so because you go way too far. CHILL.
Empire changed their tune when,and only when, they were threatened with a lawsuit by GG. GG and their lawyers found out that Empire was selling them chickens without plumbas routinely. The Vaad-placed Rabbis accepted the shipments in. so, even if mislabeling did occur,( no proof of the chicken was ever shown to GG or their lawyers) Empire's comments were found to be slanderous.
OM can you please confirm (or deny) what we all suspect - that the first 6 or 7 comments (or any of the Pro-GG comments for that matter) are all coming from the same 1 or 2 IP's?
I think your readers should have a better understanding of whether or not someone is misrepresenting themselves and trying to portray a particular position as "popular" when it is not.
I know you don't like talking about the whole "you can see our IP addresses" thing but... it would be very interesting info.
Also, I will stick my neck out and "slightly" agree that your anti-GG stance is a little smug. We all know that they have had their share of kashrut issues over the years but, the bottom line is the Vaad has always kept the certification in place. Also, whether you agree or disagree with their actions, the fact is they DO have a qualified Mashgiach giving his Hashgacha presently. This is still a "kosher" estalishment - despite the political issues going on in the background this store is still KOSHER.
I have never heard anyone say not to go to GG because it is not kosher. I have heard people say not to go to GG because virtually all of the rabbaim in the community support the goal of a single community kashruth standard, and patronizing GG at this time can frustrate that goal. As to that question -- there has been a lot of debate (on this blog, on the train, in shul, etc.) as to whether or not the goal of a single community kashruth standard is an appropriate goal. I have heard persuasiveowerful arguments both ways.
Also, I will stick my neck out and "slightly" agree that your anti-GG stance is a little smug. We all know that they have had their share of kashrut issues over the years but, the bottom line is the Vaad has always kept the certification in place. Also, whether you agree or disagree with their actions, the fact is they DO have a qualified Mashgiach giving his Hashgacha presently. This is still a "kosher" estalishment - despite the political issues going on in the background this store is still KOSHER.
Agree completely. However, I am poking gentle fun at the fact that GG is advertising this class at this particularly difficult juncture, along with the advertisement for Empire sealed chicken cases - perhaps a sore point.
Am I mastaken or does the IP address of the sender in part rely on the service provider, so since many people use AOL, optimim etc, it is possible for a number of people with the same IP address to have the same point of view.
OK, in regard to Empire's changing of their packaing...
It had nothing to do with the threat of a lawsuit, or chicken without plumbas. Empire has not been using plumbas on many products for the past 5 years. The OU, and every Vaad in America knows this. The cases are double sealed at their plant and everything inside is 100% Kosher.
They did change their packaing b/c of stores that were buying a small amount of Empire, yet a large amount of Empire.
The threat of a lawsuit wouldn't make a hugh company like Empire change their packaging, not even sure a real lawsuit would make anyone change.
BTW - Did GG actaully file a lawsuit? Last I heard they threatened but didn't take it further. Anyone know why they seemingly didn't follow through?
Agree completely. However, I am poking gentle fun at the fact that GG is advertising this class at this particularly difficult juncture, along with the advertisement for Empire sealed chicken cases - perhaps a sore point.
3:45 PM
ever hear of tshuvah?
The first act of T'shuva, just like the first act in an AA class, is to admit there is/was a problem.
Are you saying this is an admission?
the truth is you all should show some respect for the effort rabbi kravitz is making. maybe if he was a MO rabbi she wouldnt make fun.
Respect?
He came into the neighborhood, didn't consult the local Rabbonim, and helped GG violate a contract that they had agreed to.
If you claim he didn't know that the Vaad contract contained the "no outside Rabbi" clause, then he should've asked, its not uncommon and would have simply been the proper/Kovod thing to do.
"Agree completely. However, I am poking gentle fun at the fact that GG is advertising this class at this particularly difficult juncture, along with the advertisement for Empire sealed chicken cases - perhaps a sore point."
Orthomom-do you enjoy "poking gentle fun" at a family that is suffering? Because your "fun" is at the expense of me and my family and my children who are the butt of your "fun". Are you any happier in your life now that you have used your forum to destroy mine? I will not be anonymous here. Andrea Bolender
It says in the gemora that if everybody unamimously agrees the argument does not hold validity!
Orthomom-do you enjoy "poking gentle fun" at a family that is suffering? Because your "fun" is at the expense of me and my family and my children who are the butt of your "fun". Are you any happier in your life now that you have used your forum to destroy mine? I will not be anonymous here. Andrea Bolender
Sure you are.
Andrea -
Who is suffering? And at who's hands?
Because you family made some, seemingly, bad decisions and their results have negativly effected your business, how is this suffering that community should feel bad for?
I certainly never wish badly to someone or their business, but I don't see how you can blame this on the OM, her commentors, or the community at large.
"
Orthomom-do you enjoy "poking gentle fun" at a family that is suffering? Because your "fun" is at the expense of me and my family and my children who are the butt of your "fun". Are you any happier in your life now that you have used your forum to destroy mine? I will not be anonymous here. Andrea Bolender"
Yeah. Not that I believe that this commenter is actually Andrea Bolender, but anyhow. Blaming Om for posting what was always in the paper before she did, or what the Vaad put in a public leter, or what GG itself put in the paper in ads, or statements that their own lawyers made is pretty ridiculous. To blame the posters here or Om for causing Gg's downfall is even more ridiculous.
om...does it help if you finally put a name/face to "anonymous" You should all be ashamed of yourselves....and you all consider yourselves "frum" I wonder how HaShem views you all now?
"
om...does it help if you finally put a name/face to "anonymous" You should all be ashamed of yourselves....and you all consider yourselves "frum" I wonder how HaShem views you all now? "
why, because we believe our rabbis before we believe a store owner? i feel no remorse, and neither should om. everything she has posted here has been 100% appropriate.
Anonymous said...
om...does it help if you finally put a name/face to "anonymous" You should all be ashamed of yourselves....and you all consider yourselves "frum" I wonder how HaShem views you all now?
8:32 PM
---------
Nice, but I did notice how you too didn't provide us with your name.
the name is Suri, and I dont share in OM's stance on GG or anything, for that matter. I just know I conduct myself in a way that doesnt diminish individuals or their businesses. I can sleep at night and rest easy that I am not so Self righteous as my Frum neighbors seem to be.
"
the name is Suri, and I dont share in OM's stance on GG or anything, for that matter."
Ooh. Thanks for being so open. I am going to give up the mantle of anonimity just like you did. My name is David. Wow. I feel so brave.
"Ooh. Thanks for being so open. I am going to give up the mantle of anonimity just like you did. My name is David. Wow. I feel so brave. "
This is what the world sees when they see a Jew these days. The smugness or arrogance of many of us is why the majority of the world hates us so much.. So, thanks, David, for proving them right.
"Ooh. Thanks for being so open. I am going to give up the mantle of anonimity just like you did. My name is David. Wow. I feel so brave. "
This is what the world sees when they see a Jew these days. The smugness or arrogance of many of us is why the majority of the world hates us so much.. So, thanks, David, for proving them right.
Wow, these comments have gotten inane.
now let's all come out of the closet and meet in the parking lot of GG and hug each other.
how did you know I was in the closet?
your brother told me at the mikvah
I was all excited about meeting and hugging everyone at the GG lot, until they started coming out of the closte.
I can deal with mislabled chicken and second Hashgochos, but not with hugging guys coming out of the closet.
When I first came to this blog I thought "ortho" stood for Orthodox. Now I know I was wrong. Maybe it stands for Othopedic or Orhtodontic. Probably Othodontic, it definitely has something to do with the "mouth" from the way OM keeps mouthing off and bashing other Jews.
"Probably Othodontic, it definitely has something to do with the "mouth" from the way OM keeps mouthing off and bashing other Jews"
I think this is getting old. No one thinks Om is bashing Jews in this post except for a few (maybe only one, who knows) commentators. There is no bashing here. We arent stupid. We know that you might resent Om not automatically rejecting what her rabbanim have to say. but she chooses to think her rabbi is more trustworthy than a storeowner. i think she has nothing to feel bad for.
i also think that the GG ownership chose a particularly stupid time to place the NIKKUR ad. They shouldnt be forcing the situation. Lets see what happens with the Vaad, and whether people trickly back to GG. but until then, GG is being foolish in thinking that running kashrut classes is going to save the day.
Well, wiseguy anon 12:13pm, I wish I had the time to play with all you genius private eyes here, but unfortunately my time was spent with a relative in the hospital, so no it wasn't me. I had just checked in for the first time in a few days and written just the one post. And I just checked back right now.
That's a pretty solid alibi, except for the fact that you haven't given us any way to corroborate it.
I think the Nikkur classes are extremely timely, because they are an indication to the public and to the vaad of GG's steadfast commitment to the strictest standards of kashrus.
Whoa - British Airways to Contact Passengers After Traces of Radiation Found on Planes
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2er
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GG is waging an effective pr campaign. I believe they will win back their customer base by a few %pts a week. the 5tvaad has been weakend.
does this nikkur class have anything to do with Rav Yisrael Belsky and the Niabater rav's letters on Ally Meal Mart Packaging meat which are posted on Yeshivaworld.com Vos is nieas blog and the maklokes about the liver and chelev or the meeting that occurred in Rav Shmuel Birnbaum's office on Tuesday? I heard it was a big shouting match with Rav Zvi Askenazy and Satmar and Lakewood. Check out Hamodia for two large ads signed by Satmar speaking about chelev and nikkur. Any scoop orthomom?
Why is it that the only issue we know wasn't a problem is the only issue people keep referring to? The VAAD has reported, the newspapers have reported, everyone knows that the reasons the VAAD acted had nothing to do with Kashruth. It's true, Kashruth is the VAAD's pervue and many people feel that Kashruth is the only issue the VAAD should concern itself with. However, when deciding whether or not an applicant should receive hashgacha, the VAAD must make a determiniation as to the character of the applicant, because, as we all know, giving hashgacha to someone who cannot be trusted is a recipe for nothing but disaster. So, the applicant passes muster and after some time the VAAD discovers business practices, not kashruth related, that reflect poorly on the owners of a business. The sensible course to take would be to confront the owner of the business and warn him/her that these practices should stop immediately or the VAAD will consider the owner to be unethical and not someone with whom the VAAD is comfortable giving hashgacha.
The owner of the business, perhaps red-faced that he's been caught playing fast and loose with standard ethical business practices mends his ways and gets back into the VAAD's good graces. Some time goes by and the same thing happens again, then again, then again.
However, the kashruth of the store is not an issue.
Is this a VAAD problem?
Can they make someone aware of the problem without perhaps ruining an otherwise "kosher" business? What recourse does the VAAD have when a storekeeper shows himself to be someone whom the VAAD would not have given hashgacha to had they known how the business would be run? Does it help anyone to make these issues public? If it becomes public do we vent our anger at the culprit or the messenger? And, finally, who is being hurt when a community has been warned that something shady is going on and certain elements of that community disregard that warning?
All I know is that if my friend told me that the mechanic I've been using was dishonest with him, I wouldn't ignore that warning simply because my friend also happened to be a Rabbi.
Well RYE Mom's Pastry Shop has a waitress in jeans and a bare middriff- Carlos &Gabby has Alaniss Moriiset on their speaker system. Maybe some of the streets should a more gender free name. I mean I have bad thoughts when I cruise down Muriel Av or evern worse Misseltow Way.
so, a business that has been in the community, with the same owners for over 20 years, is now suspect? of What? not being able to get along with ONE particular Rabbi? Do you all get along with eveyone in your town..in your shul?...in your own family? Do you automatically run them out of town?? Still with no proof of any wrongdoing??? Consider the consequences of your actions over this shabbos. Good shabbos to all.
If you want to see how a Vaad SHOULD be run please visit this website!
http://www.queensvaad.org/kashruth_info/index.cfm?PageID=4
If someone sees your next door neighbor of siphoning gas out of your gas tank when you're not looking do you think, "Well, he's been a good neighbor for 20 years," or "I hate to think of how much he's stolen from me,"?
Anonymous said...
"If someone sees your next door neighbor of siphoning gas out of your gas tank when you're not looking do you think, "Well, he's been a good neighbor for 20 years," or "I hate to think of how much he's stolen from me,"?
If it was a neighbor who told you of the supposed theft, do you automatically assume that your good neighbor is really a thief? or perhaps you watch more carefully yourself? or, perhaps your loshen hora speaking neighbor may have a personal agenda?? I hope you do not make a judgement without proof---I have a feeling you would rather accuse someone; it is a whole lot easier than making up your own mind.
Sometimes the only proof needed is the word of someone you trust. But you obviously would rather trust the thief than the person who caught the thief. Says a lot about how much your word can be trusted.
That shiur sounds pretty interesting. What is the big deal? They are Talmedie Chachmim and the topic is not the usual one you see in daf Yomi. What can be bad about a little pot of knowledge you know Yoreah De'ah
Anonymous said...
Sometimes the only proof needed is the word of someone you trust. But you obviously would rather trust the thief than the person who caught the thief. Says a lot about how much your word can be trusted.
1:50 PM
You're kidding, right?? What ever happened to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty". Your parents must be so proud of you!!!
Anonymous said...
Respect?
He came into the neighborhood, didn't consult the local Rabbonim, and helped GG violate a contract that they had agreed to.
If you claim he didn't know that the Vaad contract contained the "no outside Rabbi" clause, then he should've asked, its not uncommon and would have simply been the proper/Kovod thing to do.
So you say , firstly it is very uncommon, look at all the stores in Brooklyn ,Long Island and the city as proof of that. Secondly Rabbi Kravitz is by no means bound by the articles of this so called contract. Third of all as it was clearly established early on in this Eisen created rucus 2 different Rabbis in this town who are on the Vaad actually told Rabbi Kravitz he should go into GG.
May i ask how the original poster is related to RYE ?
I am that original poster, and I am in no way related to RYE or anyone else in this issue.
Now, onto facts.
Kravitz, as a Rav, did have a responsibilty to help someone uphold a contract he volunteraly signed. Kravitz did just the opposite.
Two - The stores in Brooklyn, Queens, etc.... that have 2 Hasgochos are no proof, the Rabbonim there, agree together to have additional agencies come in, just the 5T Vaad wanted - cooperation.
Three - Which local Rabbonim told Kravitz to come in? They members of the Vaad? Doubt it. Goes back to my points above.
I am that original poster, and I am in no way related to RYE or anyone else in this issue.
Now, onto facts.
Kravitz, as a Rav, did have a responsibilty to help someone uphold a contract he volunteraly signed. Kravitz did just the opposite.
Two - The stores in Brooklyn, Queens, etc.... that have 2 Hasgochos are no proof, the Rabbonim there, agree together to have additional agencies come in, just the 5T Vaad wanted - cooperation.
Three - Which local Rabbonim told Kravitz to come in? They members of the Vaad? Doubt it. Goes back to my points above.
To the posts who feel that Rabbi Kravitx should "have asked" if he could come and play with them on their field...You have got to be a comedian.. Do any of you intelligent individuals out in blogland really think that the
Vaad would have said " Come Tattaleh, come play alongside us" Are you all that naive? Rabbi Kravitz came in because he knew the personalities of the players and felt that what was being done was against all reason. He came in to try to save a family run business that was going to be run out of town.. FOR NO REASON OF KASHRUS.
He will be rewarded by HaShem for his good intentions. I hope you all be rewarded for your actions as well.
I believe that kravits was called in after the vaad had already told gg that they would have to sell. Therefore, the vaad had already told gg that they were no longer going to be under contract and gg was only doing what they had to.
The vaad, in my opinion, had the right to take away the hashgocha and then let the chips fall they may. However, our rabbonim together with the vaad pulled a classic powerplay.
Again it is only about money, as the rabbonim have never doubted or said that gg was not kosher. And who said that a certifying organization has to ask the local rabbonim for permission to give their hashgocha. If the community warrants it then that hashgocha will succeed or fail on its own.
As Yaakov Gross states in his Star article their are plenty of rabbonim in town, when a new one enters , does he ask for permission to set up shop.
And until the rabbonim come clean and state all the infractions with all the details, I believe, that they have overstepped their bounds and have caused much dissension and hypocricy among many families and friends.
What we can thank the vaad and the rabbonim for is an apparent rise in prices.
As Yaakov Gross states in his Star article their are plenty of rabbonim in town, when a new one enters , does he ask for permission to set up shop.
Yaacov Gross may mildly criticize the Vaad for how this was handled, but he offers NO defense whatsoever for the GG ownership. He makes it entirely clear that if virtually every Rav in the community has signed a letter, he has NO reason whatsoever to find fault with that decision:
If our rabbis maintain that they found serious and repeated halachic violations at Gourmet Glatt - I believe that. If they say that they carefully weighed the implications of their decision on the livelihoods of the people associated with Gourmet Glatt -
I believe that too. I also believe that they concluded after careful consideration that the withdrawal of their Kashrut certification was the only available remedy under the circumstances.
Let's NOT twist his words.
Yaakov Gross says "I believe that"-please let him not speak for the whole community! We can-and have-spoken for ourselves! We are not twisting his words-we are speaking our own.
Mr. Gross does not "mildly" criticize the Vaad-Momof4 you tend to reduce the severity of words in your mind when you find it helpful to your own views-he is very clear-at least to my mind-that the Vaad's use of a "cherem" was inappropriate in its application-at the VERY LEAST!
Anonymous said...
Mr. Gross does not "mildly" criticize the Vaad-Momof4 you tend to reduce the severity of words in your mind when you find it helpful to your own views-he is very clear-at least to my mind-that the Vaad's use of a "cherem" was inappropriate in its application-at the VERY LEAST!
But he couldn't be clearer that he feels that the withdrawal of GG's hechsher was an appropriate move by the Vaad. I call his criticism of the vaad's cherem "mild" because that's precisely what it was. Especially considering that fact that the Vaad rabbanim never espoused a boycott. In their letter, not a word was mentioned about a cherem. He may have been critical of the few Rabbanim who publicly called for a boycott - but how is that comparable to the complete disregard for our rabbanim that was so rampant in these very comment threads. I am quite sure that had Mr. Gross seen some of the disgusting anti-Vaad rhetoric in teh comments I deleted, he would decidedly not approve of their tone.
The Vaad Rabbis never espoused a boycott? Where have you been hibernating?? Many told their kehillah-including mine!!-not even to buy water there. It is not what is in "their Letter" that was detrimental it was what was said on Shabbos in their shuls! And most of the "anti-Vaad" rhetoric you speak about was generated by the Vaad's own refusal to provide the community with any real information-so people ask-and when they don't get intelligent answers-they question-and when they get no answers-they get indignant.
Yaacov Gross in his article in the Jewish Star writes" on a social level we owe them gratitude,respect and fealty for the many personal sacrifices they make on our behalf."
Can anybody come up with one example?
Are you trying to put forth the argument that none of the pulpit rabbonim in the community make a sacrifice in order to serve their congregation?
Are you trying to put forth the argument that none of the pulpit rabbonim in the community make a sacrifice in order to serve their congregation?
5:47 PM
Name one who is making a sacrifice-by hours of work compared to salary.
Don't answer my question with another question.Give me some examples.
The Vaad Rabbis never espoused a boycott? Where have you been hibernating?? Many told their kehillah-including mine!!-not even to buy water there.
"Many" Vaad Rabbis told their Kehillahs to boycott GG? That is a plain fabrication. How many names have come up in these comment sections as having called for a boycott? 3? 4? Stop trying to rile everyone up based on mistruths and fabrications.
Get used to the fact that people around here (GASP!) trust their Rabbanim. What a novel idea to you, apparently.
The rabbis will not do antything about the "get" situation but they will do so much when they want a business man out. This entire thing stinks and as
I said before the business of kosher supervision is a very dirty business at that!
Momof4:
As is a novel idea of trusting your own sense of what is right or wrong? Are you one of "Lipa's" supporters of the vile "kolko"? He told his kehillah to trust him too! As a victim of such abuse I rail at your naivete. My parents "trusted" my Rav, too...too bad it ruined my life. You need to learn to trust your own instincts and use your brain-not just follow blindly!!
as per my previous posts the rabbis in this community are guilty of shfichas domim and making a chillul hashem.they are nothing but a gang of worthless yuppies.
momof4:
I'm a little shocked at how a person who writes so well can say something so obviously false. The fact is that every rabbi in the neigborhood got up and asked thier members to stop shopping at GG! We have not even been told how long this "not shopping" (you obviously don't like the word boycott) is to last! I find it very interesting that you posted a story about the WS in the JStar, but not the very well written article about GG. Unfortunatly, I have to agree with some of the people posting above as to your one sidedness on this topic. I really think you should explore some of the ideas presented by the author in this article. Such as - we have many shuls in each neigborhood, and many rabbis as well - why must we have just one kashrus organization. etc. That would really be discussing the issues as opposed to just poking fun.
"The fact is that every rabbi in the neigborhood got up and asked thier members to stop shopping at GG! "
That is a flat-out lie. My Rav, along with manyothers, said nothing further than that the Vaad is no longer certifying GG.
"Unfortunatly, I have to agree with some of the people posting above as to your one sidedness on this topic"
It isnt some people. We all know its the same person, and that the person is the one-sided one here. the only person who thinks hes fooling anyone is the commenter himself.
the point here is that no matter what commenters have tried to sow, most of the 5T Orthodox community is going to follow the directives of their Rav. Om keeps saying that, Ive said it 20 or 30 times here in differnet comment sections, mother commenters have said it. get over your denial.
"That is a flat-out lie. My Rav, along with manyothers, said nothing further than that the Vaad is no longer certifying GG."
Did your Rav then say, you could rely on the new hasgacha and continue to shop there. I didn't think so - it was an implied boycott....um I mean "no shopping permitted."
"most of the 5T Orthodox community is going to follow the directives of their Rav"
And if your Rav told you to be "mrchalil shabbas" would you listen? Even the torah teaches ni yisroel how to tell when there is a false navi!
Sorry those of us with BRAINS are still trying to UNDERSTAND how thiss situation got so out of hand that there was a "cherem" instituted. Maybe you should read Yaakov Gross's article before you start spewing the regular party line. Why hasn't the VAAD explained or even spoken about the issues? How long is this "cherem" supposed to last? Why in neighborhood full of shuls and disverse rabbonim should only one hechsher exsist (Gross's question)?
The community as whole would be better if we explained and talked about it then just throwing out the party line.
I for one am very suprised that momof4, didn't print Gross article, and disect it (as she has done so very well to so many other articles). It seems as though on this issue she has been unwilling to discuss anthing other than the party line.
I agree that it is obvious that Bolander frequents this blog and writes something obnoxious, but there are other people with BRAINS who are still trying to understand what happened yet no rabbi or VAAD member has come forth to explain or clarify this issue.
If this is "daas torah" then write a psak and explain ource by source why whats done is right - why would that be secret?
"get over your denial."
I will never stop asking questions untill I get answers - get used to it.
om has no responsibilty to blog every article on every subject. i will say that i read the yaakov gross article and i would have to garee with OM. he said nothing she hasnt been saying for weeks. she said a few weeks ago that she thought the boycott her rabbi called was out of the vaads purview. and the vadd thought so too because they didnt call for one in their letter. individual ravs can tell their congregations to do whatever they think is right.
what you dont like about oms attitude is that she trusts her rav? well, then i cant agree with you. but yaakov gross said the sam thing. he questioned the vaad respectfully as OM has done, and thats all she ever asked all of you to do. you claim shes one sided. i dont see om talk about the Bolenders with any of the venom teh anti-vaad people use. i see her say again and again that she trusts her rav. she doesnt say she doesnt trust the GG people. just that she trusdts her rav. thats not one sided. thats being frum.
I for one am very suprised that momof4, didn't print Gross article, and disect it (as she has done so very well to so many other articles). It seems as though on this issue she has been unwilling to discuss anthing other than the party line.
Trusting my Rav is "the party line"? In that case, I guess I do follow the party line. I have no regrets for doing so.
As the commenter above pointed out, I don't think that Mr. Gross said anything especially different than I've been saying for weeks. When my Ra called for a boycott on shopping at GG altogether, I questioned whether that was within the purview of the Vaad. I did NOT, however, question whether that was within the purview of my Rav. Because it is perfectly within the purview of a Rav of a Kehilla to direct his congregants on behavior he thinks is appropriate.
And I was happy to note a few days after that post that the Vaad did NOT espouse a boycott as a "party line", instead simply withdrawing the hasgacha.
So really, Mr. Gross's article may have been well-written, but there was nothing groundbreaking there, for anyone who has been reading my posts on this matter.
Most importantly, Mr. Gross treated the Vaad and community Rabbis with full respect, even if he questioned their actions. That's far far more than I have seen from commenters who are questioning the Vaad's action in my comment sections.
Agree with comments above - this is a peronal blog and I will not tell momof4 what to publish. Party line aove is a refrerence regarding a commentator who can only say "orthomom listens to her rabbi" I have clearly pointed out that listening to one rabbi is good, but that one is required to understand as well - as I mentioned the torah itself explains how to know when there is a false navi.
You can go back and read all my comments I have not said anything about the VAAD - only that they have been silent since this cherem. You can go on and on about trusting rabbis - blind faith is called for in many things I have simply asked for how long? The answer by all your silence (momof4 included) on this question seems to be untill GG goes out of bussiness or the VAAD is satisfied it will be finished etc. The question yaakov gross asks is "Is that fair without input from the community" etc?
I am sorry orthomom I have not seen you discuss these questions (all the commentators ignore them and simply put up the party line which is "orthmom listens to her Rav") if you have discussed them please point me to the article, so I can catch up.
Yaakov Gross is a fine writer, and although he makes a strong argument for multiple hashgachas he hasn't really thought the matter through. We are not cursed to have one community hashgacha (ignoring for a moment Rabbi Reisman's personal list), we are blessed. We do not need another level of status in a town where status is taught in pre-k. I don't want my neighbors to start competing on where they shop based on which store has the "best" hashgacha. Plus, the storekeepers will have to raise prices if they feel they have to pay more than one hashgacha to appeal to every segment of the population. And, then what happens when a store is paying three hashgachas and they disagree on something. If there is one they will all listen to why wouldn't the shopkeeper just have to have the one all the others listen to? And that's what we have now.
As for Rabbi Reisman, if you're looking for a cause for many of the reasons the Vaad has such a poor public image look no further. They have never recovered from the teudah scandal six years ago, and they have never had the full support of the community because of it.
That's a shame. Because as Vaads go, this one isn't nearly as bad as some and quite a bit better than most.
I cn appreciate the argument for one hascocha so there is "holier than thou" issue in the community, but to whom does the VAAD ansers too. In the name of one of the neighborhood rabbis "even a rebbe needs to have a rabbi".
Here's an example - does anyone know what the VAADs standard are for kashrus - I don't. I do know that when Rabbi Eisen was at the OU he headed up te vegtable hascachos and gave shiurim which I attended where he said "asparigus and broccoli cannot be checked for bugs and should not be eaten period." He was also head of the wines and liquor at the OU and produced a rabbis list of scotch's and other liquors that he deemed no good. It's my understanding that his level of kashrus contains many chumrous - even before he came to the VAAD. Now there is nothing wrong with chumrous, but that doen't mean that every establishment needs to adhere to his level. Tis what I don't understand why can't GG be let go without every Rav in town getting u and asking his congregants to stop paternizing the store? Why didn't te VAAD simply let them go and let kravitz deal with it! Why the cherem? How did they wrong the VAAD so badly that it is necessary to demand a "no shopping at GG" (some people refer to that as a boycott) and why won't they VAAD tell the community about it?
MONOPOLIES ARE LIKE THAT. THE VAAD HAS BEEN GIVEN SO MUCH POWER THAT THEY BELIEVE THEMSELVES TO BE ABOVE HASHEM IN ALL DEALINGS WITH LITTLE PEOPLE. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE...NOT EVEN THEIR OWN RAVS.. WHAT DOES THAT TELL US AS SUPPOSEDLY WELL EDUCATED FRUM MENSCH.. SAD ISNT IT.
Two - The stores in Brooklyn, Queens, etc.... that have 2 Hasgochos are no proof, the Rabbonim there, agree together to have additional agencies come in, just the 5T Vaad wanted - cooperation.
How do you know they agree !! What proof do you have?
How did you say you were related to RYE ?
i agree with the previous post..the rabbonim in brooklyn did not voluntarily open their territory,,, ask Rabbi Eisen for details..the plot will thicken.
Eisen will not provide details-to Rov Dovid-to you-to anyone!
Saw this on another blog-thought it really pertinent and witty...
Even if you dont buy the meat from them.You can still buy the groceries Which is currently under hashgacha. We cant allow politics dictate where we shop. The violations happened, and the Vaad did nothing. Once Gourmet Glatt got the other hechsher and the Vaad felt threatened than it took away the hechsher. This is not a reason to ROB someone of there parnasa.
We must not allow such "taliban" tactics. I ask you to please forward this to all your friends in the 5 towns. Gourmet Glatt is owned by frum jewish people who were providing a tremendous service to the community whether it was to sell groceries at fair prices or to be able to shop in a clean enviorment. SHow your support!!!!!!
Please forward to at least 10 of your friends. It will bring you good luck and cheaper groceries!!!
This message is endorsed by the Vaad of Truth. ( No motives except helping another jew and bringing out the ugly truth)
This is Sponsred by www.5townsyenta.blogspot.com
I am that original poster, and I am in no way related to RYE or anyone else in this issue.
Now, onto facts.
Kravitz, as a Rav, did have a responsibilty to help someone uphold a contract he volunteraly signed. Kravitz did just the opposite.
Two - The stores in Brooklyn, Queens, etc.... that have 2 Hasgochos are no proof, the Rabbonim there, agree together to have additional agencies come in, just the 5T Vaad wanted - cooperation.
Three - Which local Rabbonim told Kravitz to come in? They members of the Vaad? Doubt it. Goes back to my points above.
5:25 AM
Who says Rabbi ( we all call your cousin Rabbi Eisen so call our new Rabbinic Administrator Rabbi deal ?)Kravitz has to uphold this contract !! a contract only binds the parties that sign it. Who put you through law school ? Oh probably RYE. By the way who says RABBI Kravitz even saw the contract ??
3 Read the five towns jewish times they mention it there ( 2 Rabbis asked him). Also no Rabbis are admitting to anything here.
Hey RYEs cousin ever here of a gentleman named Dovid Feinstien, i was curious is he a Rabbi ?
(I'm not the same poster who earlier heckled you. I'm just another person whose still with the program.)
Anonymous said...
How about the mashgiach at a supersol party in someones house. It was a non cholov yisrael party.
The mashgiach would not let the host put out hagen dasz ice cream in sealed new containers. The mashgiach stated he would close down the party if they did try and put them out. Is the vaad employing imbeciles, or is Rabbi Eisen guilty of poor hiring practices ?
1:03 AM
Probably BOTH!
I heard in the mikve that the Yid who found the chicken was Rabbi Gordon a Rebbe in South Shore and Talmid of Shor Yoshuv. Do you think the newspapers can get his comment at the SY dinner ths Sunday? Was he the Yid with a Lid?
that's funny-I read in the Jewish Star that it was "an unidentified woman"-this story gets more and more absurd every day...
Anonymous said...
that's funny-I read in the Jewish Star that it was "an unidentified woman"-this story gets more and more absurd every day...
11:44 AM
of course it is absurd,,,,GG never saw the supposed chicken--so how could they have possibly had any answer whether it was an empire or kaj chicken... no one has ever seen the chicken - including the empire rep... plus,,, i understand that empire is currently being sued by GG for slander... apparently- empire "farmed out" their shocheting to a third party. that third party does not"shochet" the way empire did.. so empire claimed it wasnt their chicken... empire did not want to admit that they did not shochet it themselves. when the truth came out...it looked bad for the Vaad since they based E$VERYTHING on this one particular chicken. Since they could no longer claim it was going to remove the hechser due to the above..they had to find another loophole according to their esteemed attorney.. so that is how the whole absurdity began...most intelligent people realize that the vaads charges are ludicrous, however, one must believe and trust their Rav.. I guess we jews really are sheep.
Slander has a one year statute of limitations and I think GG will wait until they sell before they move in court. BTW the sub-contractor was G& G sold under the name natures best. How funny is that GG and G&G
what about the statute of limitations on obstruction of business, organizing boycotts, RICO, and Sherman Anti-Trust violations...there seems to be a lot of legal issues the Vaad will be up against. Maybe they should just make "nice" with each other and make this go away!
While Gourmet was doing their investigation of the chicken they came upon Rabbi Kravitz who told them of G&G poultry who shochs chickens for Empire in a different plant that explains why the wings were cut a differnet way than Empire does in Mifflinton ,Pa.The Vaad owes Gourmet Glatt a well deserved apologize but cannot get the courage to do so. So the delimma continues!!
When bolender sues all of the rabbis individually for their despicable actions.who is going to pay their legal bills?
I guess WE will-after all WE fund all the Vaad activities-look on your shul bill-there is a line item marked "Vaad"-I know because I asked my husband what it was for last year...I was under the impression until then that the stores were responsible for funding the Vaad budget and expenses.
The following letter is being circulated in the Far Rockaway/Five Towns community.
An Open Letter to the Vaad Harabanim of the
Five Towns and Far Rockaway
The following letter is the result of the combined efforts of concerned citizens of our community. The atmosphere surrounding the Gourmet Glatt controversy has been volatile; because of this, we have chosen to leave this letter unsigned. However, the letter represents the view of a diverse group of individuals. Respectful comments and criticisms may be emailed to gourmetdiscussion@yahoo.com.
To the esteemed rabbanim of the Vaad:
After much contemplation, we have come together as a group of concerned citizens, representing different outlooks but united in a desire for fairness. We have no personal or monetary motivations in the matter of Gourmet Glatt Emporium, and we seek to avoid rather than generate strife.
The recent controversy concerning Gourmet Glatt has disturbed our community greatly. On the one hand, if a store is guilty of deception, consumers have the right to know. On the other hand, if a store is guilty only of an inability to get along with a particular hechsher, the store has the right to acquire alternate supervision.
Rumors have swirled through a neighborhood whose constituents strive mightily to avoid any tinge of lashon hara. And yet when livelihoods and reputations are at stake, one must pursue justice.
In the spirit of the above, we respectfully ask the Vaad the following questions concerning Gourmet Glatt:
1. The Vaad asserts that there were kashrus violations over an extended period of time. What were these violations? How do they differ from the occasional errors that occur at all certified establishments? (A label being switched on a chicken package from Vineland to Empire, if this did indeed occur, is not cause for removal of a hechsher. This sort of error occurs all the time.)
2. When a hechsher is removed, the previous certifier no longer vouches for the kashrus of the establishment. Yet when making the announcement of the hechsher rescission in their shuls, some rabbanim also stated that the Vaad recommends (or insists) that people not buy at Gourmet Glatt. How can the Vaad take a stand on the kashrus at Gourmet Glatt when it no longer gives the hechsher? Moreover, most items in the store have their own certification; some items, such as fruit, do not require a hechsher. Why is it that certain rabbanim announced that nothing at all should be bought at Gourmet Glatt? How does the Vaad have the right to declare an economic boycott of a store? At minimum, the Vaad is an interested party (noge’a badavar). Isn’t it self-evident that an independent decision of a beis din is necessary in order to impose an economic sanction of this nature?
3. The Vaad is disturbed that another hechsher was invited in by Gourmet Glatt. However, the Vaad gave Gourmet Glatt’s owners four months to sell the store or else the hechsher would be pulled. Are the owners required to wait the four months before seeking another hechsher? If they wish to remain in business, don’t they have the right to secure supervision that will be ongoing?
4. The Vaad’s hechsher was removed only after the second hechsher was added. If serious kashrus violations were involved, why did the Vaad act only after Rabbi Yehuda Kravitz added his certification? Did the food suddenly turn not kosher because of the presence of extra supervision?
5. The Vaad claims that Gourmet Glatt violated its contract by taking on another hechsher. When one feels that a wrong has occurred, Jewish law has a procedure for adjudicating the matter. Did the Vaad invite the Gourmet Glatt owners to a din Torah?
6. The Vaad wants a show of support from the community, and of course we want a strong, reliable Vaad. However, the Vaad’s role is not to be the ultimate arbiter of halachic issues or of community conduct. The Vaad has specific tasks to fulfill. It keeps the eiruvin and the mikva’os, and it gives hechsherim on most, but not all, of the stores. Nowhere does it say that a store must use the Vaad for a hechsher, and if the Vaad refuses to give a hechsher to an establishment, nowhere does it say that said establishment must close shop. While we recognize that the Vaad’s rabbanim have an individual responsibility to provide spiritual guidance to their congregants, by what stretch of the imagination can that guidance extend to a concerted effort to close a store?
7. How many of the Vaad rabbanim personally visited Gourmet Glatt to evaluate Rabbi Kravitz’s supervision of the store? A detailed walk-through of the store by one of us indicates that the current hechsher is very strong. And the Kashrus Information Service, a Flatbush-based watchdog agency, has given the store a warm seal of approval. Gourmet Glatt continues to use the same meat sources that are accepted in mehadrin establishments, and the new hechsher has even added some stringencies. For example, not-Jewish employees no longer are permitted to bring not-kosher food into the store for lunch.
To those who have patronized Gourmet Glatt in the past but now have ceased to shop there, we ask the following: After Gourmet Glatt has been available to serve you for so many years, is it proper to suddenly boycott the store? We ask you to look into your hearts for the proper answer.
We have written this letter not to undermine the good work that the Vaad does, but rather in an effort to attain clarity in regards to a matter that we pray will merit a speedy, positive resolution. We pray for the peace of our community.
Your letter sounds nice but is being ignored by the whole community because you cannot get a parking space at Brachs and the GG store is empty.
I, for one, have trusted my Rav, and not shopped at GG,but I AM very sick and tired of the level of filth at Supersol (and lately at Brach's) and the subsequent rise in prices everywhere! I am considering going back to GG for my sanity.
When they make a movie of this affair.prospective titles:
rabbis behaving badly
the hoodlum rabbi
rabbis gone wild
the mad adventures of rabbi eisen
That letter is not going to make a dent. The writer(s) tried too hard to make it seem like the letter has broad community backing. But there is really not that much outrage or skepticsm in the community, and the sentiments in the letter seem like they're straight out of "no blind faith"'s comments on this blog
maybe it will have "broader coverage" if someone has chutzpah to send it to the newspapers...or Kathleen Rice's office, or maybe Andrew Cuomo, the new att'y general...just a thought
Yes, that would be very powerful. Maybe Kathleen Rice will get in touch with rabbis to urge them to work things out in beis din. Or maybe she will weigh in on whether or not the rabbis were morally justified in removing the hechsher when there was a clear contractual violation and they questioned the kashrus credibility of the storeowner.
Can someone please tell me if the Vaad issued the below letter that was posted on this blog last month? If not, why?
____________________________
Notwithstanding Bolender’s letter in the FTJT this past week, here’s a solution that would satisfy many in this community and which, in any event, many Vaad Rabbonim have privately expressed as the opinion that should have been conveyed to the community in the first instance.
Some of the Rabbis overstepped their authority by calling for a “boycott.” The list includes Rabbi Billet, Rabbi Hain and Rabbi Feitman (and possibly others). My humble opinion is that the Vaad should issue a follow-up letter clearly indicating that their Hashgacha withdrawal was just that - and nothing more. Here’s a draft:
Dear Community:
This letter will serve to clarify certain ambiguities caused by individual Rabbonim acting in an unauthorized capacity as an extension of the Vaad.
To be chrystal clear, the Vaad withdrew its Hashgacha from GG at 4pm on Friday, October _, 2006. From and after such time, we cannot opine as to the Kashrus standards maintained at GG - one way or another. Optimally, for myriad reasons (which reasons are motivated by both kashrus-standards and financial concerns), our desire is to maintain a unified Kashrus authority in our community and not permit other individuals or organizations to issue Hashgochos to our local food establishments.
That said, we understand that we cannot unilaterally impose our will on the community, particularly in respect of a matter which is outside the scope of our role as Kashrus administrators and Rabbinical leaders, and particularly when doing so is at the expense of the livelihood of other human beings. We cannot dictate to you where you can and cannot purchase edibles without a reasonable basis on which to base such ruling.
We caution you, however, to be diligent in determining where to purchase food and where to eat. This includes food establishments under the Vaad Hashgacha – no individual or organization is perfect. We hope the following guidelines are helpful in this regard:
(a) If a food establishment does not display a Kashrus certification, we hereby decree that - as a matter of Halacha - you may not eat in such establishment;
(b) If a food establishment possesses a valid Vaad Kashrus certification, we hereby confirm that the undersigned have unanimously ruled that you may eat or shop at such establishment without the need to conduct further personal due diligence;
(c) If a food establishment possesses a valid Kashrus certification which is not a Vaad certification, we hereby rule that it is incumbent upon each and every individual to fully investigate whether or not such certification is reliable, in the same manner which you would investigate a Kashrus certification if traveling to a destination at which you have no Kashrus knowledge or familiarity. This obligation to diligently investigate may include speaking to your Rabbi or one of the members of the Vaad (or anyone else you trust for Kashrus matters), and the Vaad will be glad to assist in offering you a complete and unbiased assessment of the Hashgacha in question.
If you have any concerns about any particular Rav Hamachshir, local or otherwise, please do not hesitate to contact us at (516) ***-****.
Finally, we apologize if any individual “boycott Psak” was conveyed as the opinion of the Vaad; that was not, is not and will never be our view as a general matter, unless we have a reasonable Kashrus-based basis to believe that a particular Hashgacha is unreliable.
You forgot the signatire line, dimwit. How can they sign.
But Kathleen Rice (as I work in the office of the Nassau County District Attorney) will certainly be more than interested in a letter "ordering the store to be sold" We have not had a juicy racketeering scandal since Gotti died!! Every politician likes to break a "scandal" whether it is true or false-its great publicity for the office!
You can bet the Rabbonim will not be enjoying a secular New Year when the proverbial s@#$ hits the fan-it's kind of stinky downwind!!
But Kathleen Rice (as I work in the office of the Nassau County District Attorney) will certainly be more than interested in a letter "ordering the store to be sold" We have not had a juicy racketeering scandal since Gotti died!! Every politician likes to break a "scandal" whether it is true or false-its great publicity for the office!
Do you really think that the vaad issued a letter ordering the Bolenders to sell? The most they would have included in a letter is a threat of removing their certification if the store is not sold.
To clarify regarding the Open Letter that was posted here yesterday and the responses:
The letter was written with the combined input of a number of community members. The actual writer has never posted anything on this blog until now.
The letter were submitted to the two local Orthodox papers. However, the papers would not print the letter without signatures (a stand with which we do not disagree), and we felt that at this time we could not sign our names.
You will be surprised what will come out. The letter is available, there are recorded phone conversations, this will not be pretty, but I do not think a DA will care one hoot. Have you ever heard of the first amendment?
HI,
>I don't know who you are but thank you for this great letter. I would like
>to see this letter circulated as a petition, sooner rather than later, as
>the financial hardships to the bakery and Ossie's, as well as the owners of
>GG increase daily. Has anyone even considered the loyal employees of GG who
>have served the community so well and are now in danger of losing their
>livelihood before the holidays.
>
>Any Jew who participates in a boycott of a Jewish owned business would do
>well do review the history of what happened to Jewish businesses at the
>hands of the Nazis in the 1930s. Although the official Nazi boycott of 1933
>lasted for only one day the impact was enormous. Jews sold their businesses
>at a tiny fraction of their worth. Anyone who thinks that the owners of GG
>can sell their business for anything close to what it was worth 6th months
>ago is delusional. What right does the Vaad, a committee of supposedly
>orthodox rabbis, to destroy the livelihood of fellow Jews, because they are
>"difficult to work with". Our rabbis in all the communities involved need >to
>take a strong stand against the strong armed, Mafia like tactics of the
>Vaad. (Pay us exclusively for our protection or we will destroy your
>business). Instead they succumbed to the will of the Vaad which led to
>lashon hara and worse as neighbors questioned the kashruth of their friends
>and children were told not to eat in the houses of their classmates.
>
>The initial solution to the first incident proposed by the Vaad shows their
>indifference to the consumer, as they directed stores to cease all labeling
>that included the name of the supplier. That left it up to the consumer to
>look on a chart (hopefully updated daily to reflect the ever changing price
>of chicken and meat) to figure out if they were purchasing an Empire or
>Vineland chicken.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to prepare this letter.
>
>Helen Schulman
>West Hempstead, NY
>
Genius...first amendment refers to free speech! This is way beyond that issue. Abuse of power and organized boycotts are ILLEGAL-as is obstruction of free trade, libel, slander,etc-do some legal research-you have noodles for brains-and the Vaad would do well to settle this quickly!
Lenny Koegel of Oceanside said it might have been simply that “the rabbis were insulted” that another kosher supervisor was hired. “The food here is kosher,” he said. “[The conflict is] going to leave a bad taste in the mouths of the more modern people in this community.”
Hey Lenny if I didn't live a few hundred miles away...I would join you! The Best Comment in Ain's story was:
“It goes to the sociology and economy of this community and of how you practice your Judaism,” she said. “Integrity is just not about whether you shortchange people, it’s about how you treat people. … It’s an embarrassment to the community because it’s Jew against Jew."
Do you hear that Vaad Rabbis ! It is an embarrasment to your community, you take away someone's livelyhood,a family that has been part of the community for 40+ years, you do it in a public manner and you won't tell your community why!
Posted by Yid With Lid at Wednesday, November 15, 2006
If you have any concerns about any particular Rav Hamachshir, local or otherwise, please do not hesitate to contact us at (516) ***-****.
To the original poster.
Isn't the number 516-569-4536 ?
Anonymous said...
While Gourmet was doing their investigation of the chicken they came upon Rabbi Kravitz who told them of G&G poultry who shochs chickens for Empire in a different plant that explains why the wings were cut a differnet way than Empire does in Mifflinton ,Pa.The Vaad owes Gourmet Glatt a well deserved apologize but cannot get the courage to do so. So the delimma continues!!
4:43 PM
---------------
I don't get it. I thought Rabbi Kravitz doesn't know what he is doing ( so the Rabbis have said). How could he possibly knwo these finite details about chickens !!
He probably made it up right RYE. I'm sure you (RYE) knew that Empire farmed out work to a different shechita. Or are you too busy with your Rabbinic position in the shul on nostrand ave that you run , whilst you take care of Kehilla Kashruths problems.
Lucky for the 5 towns your shul is so close to the Marine Parkway bridge or we wouldn't even see you from 12 PM to 4:30 PM .
Rabbi Kravitz ran the OU meat industry for many years-spending much of his time at the Empire plant in PA. Confirm this with Rabbi Belsky at the OU. He has nothing but praise for both Rabbi Kravitz and Rabbi Askenazy-who by the way was brought in as an expert by both Rabbis Birnbaum and Belsky to sort out the mess at Alle processing!! You guys are big on opinions but short on due diligence!!
GG will never get an apology from the vaad.. the vaad has opened themselves, both individually and collectively, for mega lawsuits once the tape is released.. the tape is of RYE telling a Bolender that they have 4 mos TO SELL their business. They have violated not only jewish laws, but federal laws as well... expect that our dues will increase big time to cover these suits.. and,, if our rabbis signed the letters ordering the sale...( which is also in the hands of the DA)b there might be legal ramifications for our shuls...Dont trust that snitow will protect the sanctity of the vaad on a gratis basis much longer. I am appalled over the whole scenario and have heard the tape on QT level.. the Vaad should be worried..
to the 8:14 post. " ever hear of free speech?" This is not about free speech.. this is about FORCING a business out of town and out of business. Ever hear of RICO laws?? think that it only applies to the mafia.. think again... it even applies to government agencies. it even applies to religious entities. so, check your facts.. or maybe you are RYE with only enough knowledge of bugs???
I was at the 2 hour shiur on Nikkur. Only one other person from the neighborhood, but there was the Dyan from Skvere and another 12 fellas who were very well versed in kashrus. It was a lively and infomative shiur in Yiddish and Hebrew. There was an interesting discusison of Minhag Jerusalem , Sfard and Askenaz with a little chumros of the Frankfort au Main. Too bad you are so busy fighting and you missed a class act in practical halacha. That trebering is complacated, and there was a discussion about the Allie meat controvery with Chelve on the liver.
This is for RYE-I am the woman that came to your office last week. I entered confused and asking a lot of questions but left quite clear..you are evil and corrupt and need to be stopped...you will be hearing from us again...
Anonymous said...
I was at the 2 hour shiur on Nikkur. Only one other person from the neighborhood, but there was the Dyan from Skvere and another 12 fellas who were very well versed in kashrus. It was a lively and infomative shiur in Yiddish and Hebrew. There was an interesting discusison of Minhag Jerusalem , Sfard and Askenaz with a little chumros of the Frankfort au Main. Too bad you are so busy fighting and you missed a class act in practical halacha. That trebering is complacated, and there was a discussion about the Allie meat controvery with Chelve on the liver.
3:11 PM
WISH I COULD OF BEEN THERE BUT I NEEDED TO WORK. I'M HOPING TO GET RABBI KRAVITZ TO GIVE ANOTHER SOON OVER 1 OR 2 WEEKNIGHTS.
TO THE WOMAN WHO WENT TO RYE's OFFICE ;
I am the woman that came to your office last week. I entered confused and asking a lot of questions but left quite clear..you are evil and corrupt and need to be stopped...you will be hearing from us again...
I HAVE MUCH TO ADD TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF RYE'S CORRUPTION.
CAN YOU CONTACT ME AT
5townsyid@gmail.com
I am appalled over the whole scenario and have heard the tape on QT level.. the Vaad should be worried..
10:10 AM
I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HEAR THAT TAPE ANY CHANCE?
probably only after the DA is finished with it-the Vaad's ONLY chance is to change THEIR tune (taped of course!) quickly and make tshuva
If their is a tape (and I don't know that their is) I think we underestimated the Bolenders-shouldn't the Vaad be taping their interactions (like credit card companies do?) Unless of course they have something to hide?? Just a thought. But you can bet I will be checking my YIW bill for any hidden charges!!
why is zomacks allowed to have the o k and the vAAD? didn't the vaad complain about places with two???
there is most certainly a tape!!! one of the bolender's has it as does both of their attorneys. also, mayer fertig was also made aware of the tape. and, i believe, he confirmed the DEMAND SCENARIO DIRECTLY WITH THE VAAD..
The vaad should be aquiescing by now... since they are not budging...i guess they feel all the shuls will come up with extra $$$ to cover all lawsuits.. I guess they feel that since nothing is ever in their individual names.. there will be nothing for GG to get via a lawsuit. are they that ignorant??? Community property scenario?? even if all their own monies are in their wives names, it is still half theirs ( ask any divorce attorney). I personally pray that the Bolenders win all lawsuits. that would certainly mean the end of the Vaad, and their terrorism of our once tranquil community.!
I am the "other person from the neighborhood" who was at the GG shiur on nikkur. It was absolutely fascinating. There is no question that Rabbi Ashkenazy is the cream of the crop when it comes to menakrim. He is held in very high regard. The person who gave the shiur, Rav Steinmetz, is a Vizhnitzer Dayan. And Rabbi Kravitz, himself an expert on meat, spoke very well.
I continue to buy meat from GG, in fact, am making a special effort to support them at this time.
I would urge those who post messages to first consider the content and tone. It is critical to avoid lashon hara, and it is critical as well to speak respectfully. We who disagree with the Vaad (I fully support the Open Letter) have the right and even the obligation to make our views known, but with respect.
Someone asked about spreading the open letter. I urge those who agree with it to email it to friends. Once I came upon the letter, I began to do this.
GG will survive if we shop there; it is as simple as that.
There are actually at least five places in the neighborhood that have a different or additional hechsher. Zomick's has both hechsherim. Jinil Au Chocolat, Edible Arrangements, the sephardi-type place on, I think, Central and Prospect, and the Costco bakery do not have the Vaad.
OM I was surfing your previous blogs and found this post-seems that Rabbi Ashkenazy brought Alle's chelev issue to RYE time and time again. Rye could have avoided another scandal-unfortunately he knows LESS THAN NOTHING about meat. Maybe he should have been REQUIRED by his bosses to attend GG's shiur!!! Read this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My humble thanks to the above writer. It is truly a shame that the community of the Five Towns can be brought into the limelight in such a horrible "loshon hora". I choose to not say my name but I was present at this Vaad meeting and witnessed Mr. Bolender bringing to the Rabbonim not once but twice two issues of Meats that was koshered by Alle Packing and questioning the Nikkur [ritual deveining]. Why Rabbi Eisen after being told the Nikkur [traditional devieining} was not done correctly and being requested to please come down at once to see for himself. The situations about Alle Packing[Under at least 2 or more supervisions] took place 5 weeks before the meeting and then the week before the meeting. The thousands of pounds of Meats which where corrected by Rabbi Ashkenzay and his staff at GG was never inspected by Rabbi Eisen after repeated phone calls. So one must ask when an owner cares so much what his customers are eating, in this case 5000+ pounds of meat and the Rabbi Eisen who doesn't take the time to followup on a potential that his community is consuming not correctly treibered [deveined] meats which could affect 1000's of our families table, so why one chicken which feeds at most 4 people can carry so much weight, especially since the question of Kashrus was never an issue. The answer, as heard at the Vaad meeting:Rabbi Eisen's answer:I know nothing about meat... so why are we paying him $120,000 plus benefits, doesn't make himself available to answer questions,but would rather spend his time at Hershey Park duing this week instead of correcting or clearing these wrongs. Sometimes we get what we pay for, in this case I would think twice.
12:41 AM
An Open Letter to the Vaad Harabanim of the
Five Towns and Far Rockaway
The following letter is the result of the combined efforts of concerned citizens of our community. The atmosphere surrounding the Gourmet Glatt controversy has been volatile; because of this, we have chosen to leave this letter unsigned. However, the letter represents the view of a diverse group of individuals. Respectful comments and criticisms may be emailed to gourmetdiscussion@yahoo.com.
To the esteemed rabbanim of the Vaad:
After much contemplation, we have come together as a group of concerned citizens, representing different outlooks but united in a desire for fairness. We have no personal or monetary motivations in the matter of Gourmet Glatt Emporium, and we seek to avoid rather than generate strife.
The recent controversy concerning Gourmet Glatt has disturbed our community greatly. On the one hand, if a store is guilty of deception, consumers have the right to know. On the other hand, if a store is guilty only of an inability to get along with a particular hechsher, the store has the right to acquire alternate supervision.
Rumors have swirled through a neighborhood whose constituents strive mightily to avoid any tinge of lashon hara. And yet when livelihoods and reputations are at stake, one must pursue justice.
In the spirit of the above, we respectfully ask the Vaad the following questions concerning Gourmet Glatt:
1. The Vaad asserts that there were kashrus violations over an extended period of time. What were these violations? How do they differ from the occasional errors that occur at all certified establishments? (A label being switched on a chicken package from Vineland to Empire, if this did indeed occur, is not cause for removal of a hechsher. This sort of error occurs all the time.)
2. When a hechsher is removed, the previous certifier no longer vouches for the kashrus of the establishment. Yet when making the announcement of the hechsher rescission in their shuls, some rabbanim also stated that the Vaad recommends (or insists) that people not buy at Gourmet Glatt. How can the Vaad take a stand on the kashrus at Gourmet Glatt when it no longer gives the hechsher? Moreover, most items in the store have their own certification; some items, such as fruit, do not require a hechsher. Why is it that certain rabbanim announced that nothing at all should be bought at Gourmet Glatt? How does the Vaad have the right to declare an economic boycott of a store? At minimum, the Vaad is an interested party (noge’a badavar). Isn’t it self-evident that an independent decision of a beis din is necessary in order to impose an economic sanction of this nature?
3. The Vaad is disturbed that another hechsher was invited in by Gourmet Glatt. However, the Vaad gave Gourmet Glatt’s owners four months to sell the store or else the hechsher would be pulled. Are the owners required to wait the four months before seeking another hechsher? If they wish to remain in business, don’t they have the right to secure supervision that will be ongoing?
4. The Vaad’s hechsher was removed only after the second hechsher was added. If serious kashrus violations were involved, why did the Vaad act only after Rabbi Yehuda Kravitz added his certification? Did the food suddenly turn not kosher because of the presence of extra supervision?
5. The Vaad claims that Gourmet Glatt violated its contract by taking on another hechsher. When one feels that a wrong has occurred, Jewish law has a procedure for adjudicating the matter. Did the Vaad invite the Gourmet Glatt owners to a din Torah?
6. The Vaad wants a show of support from the community, and of course we want a strong, reliable Vaad. However, the Vaad’s role is not to be the ultimate arbiter of halachic issues or of community conduct. The Vaad has specific tasks to fulfill. It keeps the eiruvin and the mikva’os, and it gives hechsherim on most, but not all, of the stores. Nowhere does it say that a store must use the Vaad for a hechsher, and if the Vaad refuses to give a hechsher to an establishment, nowhere does it say that said establishment must close shop. While we recognize that the Vaad’s rabbanim have an individual responsibility to provide spiritual guidance to their congregants, by what stretch of the imagination can that guidance extend to a concerted effort to close a store?
7. How many of the Vaad rabbanim personally visited Gourmet Glatt to evaluate Rabbi Kravitz’s supervision of the store? A detailed walk-through of the store by one of us indicates that the current hechsher is very strong. And the Kashrus Information Service, a Flatbush-based watchdog agency, has given the store a warm seal of approval. Gourmet Glatt continues to use the same meat sources that are accepted in mehadrin establishments, and the new hechsher has even added some stringencies. For example, not-Jewish employees no longer are permitted to bring not-kosher food into the store for lunch.
To those who have patronized Gourmet Glatt in the past but now have ceased to shop there, we ask the following: After Gourmet Glatt has been available to serve you for so many years, is it proper to suddenly boycott the store? We ask you to look into your hearts for the proper answer.
We have written this letter not to undermine the good work that the Vaad does, but rather in an effort to attain clarity in regards to a matter that we pray will merit a speedy, positive resolution. We pray for the peace of our community.
I can not understend ..are we dilling with 5t chachmei chellem??most rabonim sign to boycut GG blinedly are you realy stupid??
you realy have a chance to look into the problem before its too late or all of you who signed will be sorry there is God in heaven .incase you forgot.....
I can not understend ..are we dilling with 5t chachmei chellem??most rabonim sign to boycut GG blinedly are you realy stupid??
you realy have a chance to look into the problem before its too late or all of you who signed will be sorry there is God in heaven .incase you forgot.....
Avi Goldstein Chazak HU BAROUCH
CHAZAK HU BAROUCH
maybe we all should get our meat at pathmark
I just think it's comical that virtually everyone is posting anonymously - is it because Lashon HaRah is Mutar when it is anonymous or because they are they afraid of killing their chances for Maftir Yonah? How cheap and cowardly!
The reason why some posts are anonymous is that there are people who are afraid of repercussions. Unfortunately, the Vaad is not accepting reasoned criticism here.
why should the vaad accept any criticism at all.. they are the
rulng MONOPOLY IN TOWN. lets see how they fall over the next few months. and fall they will.
jack said...
"No, one is not "mechuyav" to make statements about rabbanim. And from what I see, the statements are unsubstantiated or based on hearsay. One has no right to believe the statements.
The only issue before us should be helping Gourmet Glatt."
Avi by you continuing to shop at GG you are basically calling the rabanim liars. Stop trying to be so politically correct and just say it the way it is. Either GG did something wrong or the rabbis are doing something wrong.
December 14, 2006 4:37:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
the rabbonim KNOW they did something wrong! They just dont know how to fix it. I attended a chassanah where many local rabbonim were apologizing to a Bolender present. Heres a list to start with:
Rabbi Lefkowitz
Rabbi Teitelbaum
Rabbi Spiegel
Rabbi Dovid Weinberger
Rav Dovid Feinstein
Rav Yisroel Belsky
Rabbi Binyomin Kamenetsky
Rabbi Mordechai Kamenetsky
Is that enough Rabbonim to start with??? Start asking, you'll be surprised at the answers!!!
December 14, 2006 8:44:00 PM PST
yeah right. if you really think that we believe that the rabbis you listed apologized to a Bolender I have a store to sell you in Cedarhurst. It's very busy, really! The store is packed! people are flooding it! i cant believe how many people are showing support! the cash registers must be teeming with hundred dollar bills! theyre doing better than ever. yeah right.
anyhow, some of teh rabbis you listed above arent even locals, dummy. mayeb we would believe you that you are really a member of the 5T ortho community if you had known that...
YOU SIR ARE A JACK**S
And you need to learn how to spell-unless you are dyslexic-then I apologize for that, but you are still a jerk!
Anonymous said...
And you need to learn how to spell-unless you are dyslexic-then I apologize for that, but you are still a jerk!
12:17 AM
He's not Dyslexi. Dyslexia, is an inability of the visual processing region of the brain, to properly portray certain symbols. The gentleman in question is an Idiot , usually a congenital disorder. Possibly asquired during a course of rigourous Yeshivatization of the Hippocampus.
"He's not Dyslexi. "
That is spelled dyslexic, my apologies.
who calls you dummy?
is Rye belong on the community ?or lives hear?
5 Towns Yid said...
I do not believe all these Rabbis wanted to apologize. First of all Rav dovid Feinstien wanted to get involved and help settle things peacefully. Rabbi Broffman said that he should stay where he is. That he doesn't know our community and shouldn't mix in.
Also the vaad is now in the process of having GG sign various release documents.
More to come in my next posting.
December 16, 2006 10:08:00 PM PST
On the issue of the Vaad recertifying the new GG, 5 towns Yid is correct. The Vaad/RYE will only recertify if the Bolenders sign releases . These releases would ensure that the Vaad and its Rabbis will never be able to be sued or brought to justice presumably for what they did here.
5TY is right it is sad.
5 Towns Yid said...
FYI,
GG is selling for less than half what they were offered before the Vaad pulled their hashgacha.
The buyer is only purchasing on condition the Vaad will recertify the store etc.
The Bolenders will therefore need to sign various documents, that will make it impossible for them to ever go after the vaad. Or its Rabbis, for any of the horrible things they did to the GG family.
December 16, 2006 10:11:00 PM PST
5 Towns Yid said...
Brachs till recently was using meats from a kosher slaughterhouse down south. This slaughterhouse was OK with the Vaad of the 5 towns. (Some small glatt houses still exist in the US and do a small scale for certain wholesale clients only.)
Brach's is now being made by the vaad to change and will no longer use this Glatt Kosher slaughterhouse.
Guessed why ? Yup it is under Rabbi Kravitz who till now was considered kosher by the Vaad . now that he came into their turf he is Treif.
Rabbi Kravitz actually certifies about 500 items. A number of which were regularly used by Vaad Certified stores. Now of course the Vaad is disallowing them.
How does that make all my fellow community brothers and sisters feel?
December 16, 2006 10:18:00 PM PST
Ladies and Gents lets all get ready to spend more on meats in the 5 towns. Now that the Vaad is forcing Brachs to buy their meat from Alle Processors, instead of the facility under Rabbi Kravitz. I hope everyone realizes that Alle is under the Nirbater. He is a Chassidishe Rav in Brooklyn. This in my eyes does not make him a better certifier than Rabbi Kravitz.
As a point of fact thr Nirbater as he likes to refer to himself. Allows a certain piece of Chailev to remain in the animal. This piece is removed by other Slaughterers (including Rabbi Kravitz certified facility). However not by Alle Processors. This once again shows the ignorance of RYE in the area of meats. Also this shows how nasty and false our Vaad/Rye really is.
Selling our souls to protect their rears.
This is so stupid. Lets be clear on the story as it happened.
The vaad found kashrut issues in GG in the past.
The owners were warned.
Then the chickens were found to be mislabeled.
The vaad decided this was the last straw.
They told the Bolenders they either had to sell outright or sell a majority to a partner , with stipulation that a particular owner from the family not be allowed on the floor.
The vaad agreed to keep it quiet so that the bolenders could get a reasonable return for the sale.
Someone leaked the story anyway. (Pro-vaad conspiracy theorists say it was the bolenders, ant-vaad theorists say the vaad).
The Bolenders, faced with a huge drop in business brought in K-1 hashgacha (Kravitz) amid a large advertising campaign.
The Vaad, blindsided by the new GG hashgacha, which was against the contractual agreement spelled out vis-a-vis the present hechsher, decided (to a member with no dissenting votes) to pull GG's hashgacha.
Gg cried foul, claiming they had been "wronged".
The majority of thinking people in the 5T disagree with GG's assessment, vote with their pocketbooks, and come out on the vaad's side.
Brachs, Supersol and Kosher World have banner months for sales.
Anonymous blog commenters try to make thinking people believe that the "feds" would ever get invovled in telling a religious association how to police kosher standards. (Hahahaha)
This is not a kashrus issue .It is racketeering.
Rabbis may think thay are not bound by Torah law.But they sure as hell are bound by Rico statutes.
Anon 11:41 the facts are they were told to Sell with no appeal process-the majority partbership is a myth.
Anonymous blog commenters try to make thinking people believe that the "feds" would ever get invovled in telling a religious association how to police kosher standards. (Hahahaha)
11:41 AM
To the less than knowledgable individual who posted above....ever hear of the Department of Agriculture division of kosher inspectors?? i guess not since yu feel the government NEVER gets involved with religious affairs...Try researching before bloggging.. it keeps out the riffraff among us jews.
Anonymous said...
This is not a kashrus issue .It is racketeering.
Rabbis may think thay are not bound by Torah law.But they sure as hell are bound by Rico statutes.
2:08 PM
this blogger has done his/her homework.. not even the government agencies are above the rico statutes,,not even the catholic church.. RESEARCH before blogging. PLEASE
Anonymous said...
"Guessed why ? Yup it is under Rabbi Kravitz who till now was considered kosher by the Vaad . now that he came into their turf
Rabbi Kravitz actually certifies about 500 items. A number of which were regularly used by Vaad Certified stores. Now of course the Vaad is disallowing them.
How does that make all my fellow community brothers and sisters feel?"
This makes me feel like crap. How can we let this go on? If i call the vaad on this what would their response be? How come Rabbi kravitz isn't speaking up about this? If he were to write a letter to the jewish star or 5 towns jewish I think if they can confirm its him they would publish it?? whats threal deal??
December 17, 2006 12:22:00 PM PST
tzaddik1 said...
"Rabbi Kravitz actually certifies about 500 items. A number of which were regularly used by Vaad Certified stores. Now of course the Vaad is disallowing them.
How does that make all my fellow community brothers and sisters feel?"
It is imperative that people know this and realize that the vaad is a business like any other and unfortunately it seems to be that their business is not being run all that ethically. I think the 5 towns community needs a public fast day. Everyone should start questioning and pressing their rabbanan to make sure this (the above) isn't the case. If they are using their power and pulling business from others that use rabbi Kravitz they should all be fired!!!!!!!!!!! This is not the Torah way.
The real problem is many rabbi's were negligent and signed without knowing the facts and are blindly following whatever rabbi Eisen says. this however is not an excuse. After 120 years let them try and tell Gd but rabbi eisen said..... Its not to late start- push your rabbis to investigate and get to the bottom of all this.
December 17, 2006 3:09:00 PM PST
Rabbi Eisen himself would be glad to answer all your questions.
He can be reached at the Vaad office 516 569 4536 or at
646 739 2466
Sure Rabbi Eisen will gladly answer your questions, hopefully from a Federal prison along with the Rabbi's that blindly followed him. Sixty minutes just ran tonight a special report about the Nazi's records that have been hidden from all of us with loved ones murdered in the death camps, will it take 50 plus years for the Vaad to open this horrible file RYE says he as? I attached the 60 minutes summary, something to think about......--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Millions of records kept by Nazi Germany are going to be opened to the public. (Ralph Orlowski/Getty Images)
Quote
"Those people who said the Holocaust didn't happen, like the president of Iran, if they have any questions about it, please come to Bad Arolsen and check it out for themselves."
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Miki Schwartz
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
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Go To Comments
(CBS) For the first time, secrets of the Nazi Holocaust that have been hidden away for more than 60 years are finally being made available to the public. We’re not talking about a missing filing cabinet - we’re talking about thousands of filing cabinets, holding 50 million pages. It's Hitler’s secret archive.
The Nazis were famous for record keeping but what 60 Minutes found ran from the bizarre to the horrifying. This Holocaust history was discovered by the Allies in dozens of concentration camps, as Germany fell in the spring of 1945.
As correspondent Scott Pelley reports, the documents were taken to a town in the middle of Germany, called Bad Arolsen, where they were sorted, filed and locked way, never to be seen by the public until now.
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The storerooms are immense: 16 miles of shelves holding the stories of 17 million victims – not only Jews, but slave laborers, political prisoners and homosexuals. To open the files is to see the Holocaust staring back like it was yesterday: strange pink Gestapo arrest warrants as lethal as a death sentence, jewelry lost as freedom ended at the gates of an extermination camp. Time stopped here in 1945.
Pelley walked through the evidence with chief archivist Udo Jost. He showed 60 Minutes a list of 1,000 prisoners saved by a factory owner who told the Nazis he needed the prisoners labor. This was the list of Oskar Schindler, made famous by the Steven Spielberg movie.
"Here are the 700 men and the 300 women whose names were on Schindler’s list," Jost explains.
The 60 Minutes team also found the file of "Frank, Annaliese Marie," better known as Anne Frank. It’s her paper trail from Amsterdam to Bergen-Belsen, where she died at the age of 15.
But most of the names here are of unknown people. While the Nazis did not write down the names of those executed in the gas chambers at places like Auschwitz, they did keep detailed records of millions of others who died in the camps. Their names are listed in notebooks labeled “Totenbuch,” which means “death book.” The names are written here, single-spaced, in meticulous handwriting.
"Here we see the cause of death: executed. And you can see, every two minutes they shot one prisoner," Jost explains.
"So they shot a prisoner every two minutes for a little over an hour and a half?" Pelley asks.
"Yes. Now look at the date: it’s the 20th of April. That was Adolf Hitler’s birthday. And this was a birthday present, a gift for the Führer. That’s the bureaucracy of the devil," Jost says.
The devil is in the details - the smallest details. Pelley and the 60 Minutes crew were amazed to see the Nazis kept records of head lice.
"You can see the names and numbers of each prisoner, and the amount of lice that were found," Jost says.
The Nazis couldn’t have disease spreading among slave laborers. "You can see he was a perfectionist. He even put down the size of the lice. Large, small or medium-sized lice," Jost comments about the Nazi lice inspector.
Paul Shapiro helped pry open the archive. He’s Director of Holocaust Studies of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C.
"I’m curious. Why did the Nazis keep all these records? If they were gonna murder these people anyway, why keep the paperwork?" Pelley asks.
"Because they wanted to show they were getting the job done. So, in terms of people whose destiny was to be murdered, recording how well that was being done was very important," Shapiro explains.
And those records make up the largest Holocaust archive anywhere. Run by the Red Cross, the International Tracing Service was set up after the war to trace lost family members. Survivors could write for information, but there was a backlog of 400,000 unanswered letters. And neither survivors nor scholars got past the lobby.
"What was the stated reason for keeping these documents out of the public eye for more than 60 years?" Pelley asks.
"A respect for privacy of individuals was the most-often cited reason," Shapiro says. "On the one hand, you had governments stating 'We’re protecting people’s privacy.' And on the other hand, you had those very people saying 'No, no, we want the material to be open.'”
Continued
1 | 2 | 3
Produced By Michael Rosenbaum
©MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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While I applaud the stories you provide of the Holocaust survivors, you also forget to remind people that there were also 5 million non-Jews that died in those camps. I am not Jewish and was informed by my family that my Grandmother was put to death by the regime because she was in a mental hospital for depression, a depression cause by the loss of a child which was still-born.
Posted by Many_Ids at 10:33 PM : Dec 17, 2006
+ report this comment
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mszohar,
Well said, thank you.
Posted by emokev at 10:29 PM : Dec 17, 2006
+ report this comment
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My father was a survivor of no less than 6 camps - barely alive when liberated. His story will live on through his children and grandchildren, as well as in the book he wrote. His way of life - loving one's fellow man, will live on with me and my siblings.
Ironically, when passed through selection, he saw his mother walk away in a column of those selcted to die. As he begged to go with her, and watched for the last sight of the color of her blouse, the guard pushed him into the other line, stating "you must live". He lived - he witnessed - he told his story in a book entitled You Must Live. Yes, he lived so he could testify in the trial of at least one Nazi war criminal and put him in prison for life - a far cry from those my father saw him put to death.
He lived with a purpose - to make this world a better place for the rest of us - to be one small part in the rebirth of the Jewish people Hitler and his death machine tried to wipe out.
I hope that one day I can find some record in this archive of the
Dear Rabbonim,Please stop this evil in our communtiy now!!! put your pride aside and correct this wrong. Thank you & G-d bless America
AN OPEN LETTER to the 5 TOWNS COMMUNITY
I am saddened and appalled at the way our 5 towns Vaad has handled the Gourmet Glatt issue. I have the utmost respect for the rabbis of the Vaad; however I can not stand by idly while an injustice is being done. I have spoken to a number of rabbis on the Vaad and have been told that Mr. Bolender was not at the meeting where the Vaad decided his fate (gave the psak that he must sell the store). How is it possible that NOT ONE Rabbi on the Vaad (that signed the letter and attended the meetings) asked or insisted that Mr. Bolender have the opportunity to relay his side of the story???????????? Did the thought of putting this individual (and others supported by this store) out of business without giving him the chance to speak in front of those who are deciding his fate not cross their minds??????? How can a psak like this be enforced or even given? I know the Vaad states in their letter "It should be self-evident that such a decision was not taken lightly." However I am not sure it can get any lighter than not hearing the other side of the story. I would venture to say that if one of the rabbis on the Vaad were being accused of something they would think it is only fair and just that they get an opportunity to be heard. Why was it not done here? This is not a joke; it is the livelihood of 5 families at stake as well as an individual's reputation. The Vaad's letter also calls the acquisition of a second hashgacha an affront to the unity of the community, and states a claim that "When there is one universally recognized and accepted hashgacha in a community, the kashruth standards are clear to all. When one local store takes on multiple hashgachot on their premises, then there is a threat to the uniform standards we have all worked so hard to achieve." Yet the Vaad has a double standard, they allow their own philosophy and statements to be contradicted by a local Rav in the community who has certain "recommended stores". According to the Vaad is this not an affront to the unity of the community? Should we as a community ban him and his shul? Why is the Vaad not writing letters about him? The Vaad seems to be more concerned with the the monopoly they have over all the 5 towns stores rather than the most important issue- Halacha. If the Vaad for whatever reason feels they can't or don't want to supervise this store they don't have to. But why does it bother them so much if another expert in the area of kashrus, a competent halachik authority, a talmid chachom and an individual who has a chezkas kashrus is willing to take that responsibility on his shoulders? Halacha certainly allows this. Why are they making sure this store goes out of business? This is pure rishus (evil) and does not allow me to believe this is being done lishma (for the sake of heaven). I don't recall seeing in the Shulchan Aruch (Jewish Code of Law- written by R' Yosef karo) that all stores in the 5 towns must only be supervised by the 5 towns Vaad. The Vaad has certainly done an excellent PR job of convincing the community that they must have one standard in kashrus, however as stated previously they themselves allow a local Rav to set a second standard. Also the Vaad relies on various different kashrus organizations themselves (OU, Kof k etc.). Are they writing letters and calling for all these organizations to consolidate as well? I am calling upon our community to stand up for what is right and follow Halacha. Halacha tells us that we can shop at Gourmet Glatt under Rav Kravitz's hashgacha. I hope and pray to Hashem that we all come together as one for the sake of Heaven and for the sake of our wonderful community. It will be intriguing to see whether our holy community follows the Shulchan Aruch of Rav Yosef Karo or that of Rav Yosef Eisen. A concerned member of the community
Simply putting it,this all stinks, someone or someones are getting paid big dollars to destroy a local icon.
Transcripts have been sent to 3 network channels for the story I know so far.If 60 minutes uncovered the Vaad wrongdoing it would be a great blow to Judiasm.Rabbonim please forth and correct the injustices .
Could we possibly organize a rally of sorts . Or even a town hall meeting of sorts. We do have the power and the right to terminate Rabbonim who are contracted employees. They must understand we will not let this town turn into another Yeshiva Torah Temimah , where anuthing goes.
this is too funny. "another Torah Temimiah"? Sure, if you compare a comunity chhosing not to eat in a place whose kashrut they dont trust to child molsatation. these comments are gettinmg really stupid. youre trying and trying and yet GG is still in the red. face it. the community trusts their rabbis more than they trust the Bolenders or some anonymous commneters (who might well be one and teh same).
SHAI SCHWARTZ PLEASE ASK YOUR RABBI OF ANY WRONGDOING. ONLY THAT RABBI EISEN WAS ABLE TO CONVINCE THE RABBONIM OF HIS FAMOUS FILE THAT CONTAINS NOTHING TO DO ABOUT KASHRUTH EXCEPT THAT SOME MASHGICHIM WERE NOT DOING THEIR JOBS PROPERLY WHICH WOULD JUSTIFY THEM BEING REPLACED WITH CAPABLE MASHGICHIM NOT THE OWNERS BEING BLAMED & THE STORE LOSING ITS HASGACHA .
To put it bluntly,if this crap is not settled by 5PM tomorrow.I am going to contact the NEW YORK TIMES,POST,NEWS,NEWSDAY and several TV stations to let them know what these thug rabbis have perpetrated on us.
Jack wrote: "Avi by you continuing to shop at GG you are basically calling the rabanim liars. Stop trying to be so politically correct and just say it the way it is. Either GG did something wrong or the rabbis are doing something wrong."
I will respond to Jack and then I will cease to post on or look at this blog, due to the clear lashon hara and rechilus being written.
Jack, by continuing to shop at GG, I am not, chas v'shalom, "calling the rabbanim liars." In truth, I am very close to a number of Vaad rabbanim, and I maintain a friendly relationship with many others. My issue here is not whether the Vaad HaKashrus or GG is correct, or whether both are, or whether neither is. My issue is simply that a kashrus agency has the right not to give a hechsher, but that it (or
members of its affiliated rabbinical vaad) does (do) not have the right to declare a boycott of a store. I shop at GG not so much to make a statement but to give at least a bit of economic support to the store. In other words, I believe that even if the Vaad was right to pull its hechsher, a boycott and its repercussions extend way beyond the scope of its powers. Moreover, a boycott inflicts economic harm in the absence of a psak halachah permitting such harm.
Avi, the vaad did not call for a boycott. Some individual rabbis did, but there's a huge difference. Also, what you are saying here is what most of us including om have been saying the whole time. But many people here are arguing that the vaad had no right to withdraw the hechsher. But the fact is that they did.
no, legally they really didnt...here's why....the reason for the removal was due to a "contractual violation" involving a stipulation that only one hechser is allowed. Then why, per chance, are there so many 5 towns stores with two or more hechsers??? once the precedent of two or more hechsers were allowed, how could the Vaad claim there was a contractual violations...obviously, different rules for different stores...maybe based on personal prejudice of the Rabbonim involved.. Anyone with intelligence see through the Vaad's nonsense??
There was a contractual violation, however, that was after the Vaad had already indicated that they would no longer certify gg. GG did what it had to do to protect its position and brought in another Hashgocha. Therefore, gg only accelerated the decision that the Vaad had already made. The Vaad thinking that they could be the only authority in town then pulled their hashgocha.
Then faced with the possibility that others might follow, the vaad
either sold the rabbonim a bill of goods, or the rabbonim were foolish enough to believe that they were gedolim, and should be able to put GG in cherem.
The rabbonim do not understand how they have split families, where parents will not tell their children that they may have purchased something at gg that is perfectly kosher anywhere else. What hypocrisy. Plus all the other tirchas that go along with their decision, besides higher prices.
Gourmet Glatt chopped meat sale 1.99lb Brach 4.89lb where is the justice.Ask your Rabbi if it is not Glatt at Gourmet - Rabbi Billet even says Kashruth is on a higher level with Kravitz than Vaad supervised stores
" CUSTOMER @ ARMS said...
Gourmet Glatt chopped meat sale 1.99lb Brach 4.89lb where is the justice."
Mr Bolender, I'm sure youre welcome to advertise directly through orthomoms blog ads at the right of the blog. Theres no need to advertise your specials in the comments.
Anon 8:26 My name is Isaac Grossman
My post of yesterday is meant to be taken seriously.No settlement by
5PM today,I start calling the media as soon as I get home from shul tomorrow morning.
Rumor has it that a 100% sale is imminent, waiting for approval and releases from all lawyers
Anonymous said...
My post of yesterday is meant to be taken seriously.No settlement by
5PM today,I start calling the media as soon as I get home from shul tomorrow morning.
9:56 AM
on behalf of the whole community, we applaud you for doing what should have been done long ago..
Anonymous said...
Avi, the vaad did not call for a boycott. Some individual rabbis did, but there's a huge difference. Also, what you are saying here is what most of us including om have been saying the whole time. But many people here are arguing that the vaad had no right to withdraw the hechsher. But the fact is that they did.
My response: I know that it is individual rabbis who called for a boycott, but there is not a "huge difference." When a hechsher is taken off a store, it is not usually accompanied by a letter from the local vaad harabanim; in this case, such a letter was issued. While different rabbis phrased the action in different terms, there definitely were a few who told people not to buy at GG and others who implied it. Many people were left with the impression that one must not buy at GG, and that is simply wrong.
However, regarding the pulling of the hechsher, that is a Vaad HaKashrus matter. If the Vaad felt that the issues before it precluded it from continuing the hechsher, it most certainly has the right to remove the hechsher. No agency can be forced to give a hechsher.
I know I wrote that I will no longer view this blog, because the unsupported rumors and innuendos constitute nothing more than lashon hara and rechilus. However, I did want to clarify my stance.
lkjigb;klihb
The majority of thinking people in the 5T disagree with GG's assessment, vote with their pocketbooks, and come out on the vaad's side.
Brachs, Supersol and Kosher World have banner months for sales.
Not quite true, the majority of thinking people were told by their Rabbonim not to think for themselves and not to buy from GG. So they marched themselves over to Brachs who proceeded to raise the price and cash in on the community.
Rabbi Eisen himself would be glad to answer all your questions.
He can be reached at the Vaad office 516 569 4536 or at
646 739 2466
That's very funny, I was at GG on Chol Hamoed Sukkos when the vaad mashgiach couldn't even reach him on those numbers. The office was closed for the holidays, unlike the establishments who where actually involved in Kashrus and cooking food, accepting deliveries, and had questions and issues. In addition Rabbi Eisen took off to be with his family and did not answer phone calls.
So go ahead try calling him now, and why now after all this time, is someone posting his number (or is it he himself) finally to get him to answer questions. Go ahead, I think everyone should call him. And while your at it, ask him where the "so called" chicken is that started the whole scandal. Tell him you want to see it and the receipt or label that proves it was bought at GG. Don't forget it was never produced. You can ask him why it was never shown to GG when they asked to see it.
You can also ask him why he has this vendetta against them, and why is there so many issues when his own mashgichim are signing in the products.
Here is another question for him, how does he train or qualify his mashgichim. What more do they need aside from a letter from their Rebbe that they are Shomer Shabbat. And this I heard from a High School teenager.
the community trusts their rabbis more than they trust the Bolenders or some anonymous commneters (who might well be one and teh same).
You are a fool, the Torah Temimah community also trusted their own "Rabbi" more than they trusted the parents who came to complain and the commenters who stuck up for them. Rabbis stick together for no other reason than they are all Rabbis. GET REAL!
The Community had NO choice. If you belong to a shul and your Rav told you to boycot, your choice was to boycot or leave the shul. YOU PICK! That is not a choice, that is an ultimatum. They were told not to shop in the store at all. They were not told that the Vaad is not supervising the store therefore, you must check every item yourself and determine the kashrus. Nor were they told, you may not buy meat because they kasher their own meat, but all other products you can buy as if you were going to any supermarket that sold kosher and other items. You have to check for yourself.
The Rabbonim said not to go in and patronize the store at all. That means they were protecting the "RABBI", just as Torah Temimah was protecting their "RABBI" in a whole different set of circumstances.
But if you can possibly think for yourself, you would realize that each individual incident must be examined on its own merits, and theirfore Rabbis cannot ban together and protect each other just because they happen to all have the same first name "Rabbi".
SOME MASHGICHIM WERE NOT DOING THEIR JOBS PROPERLY WHICH WOULD JUSTIFY THEM BEING REPLACED WITH CAPABLE MASHGICHIM NOT THE OWNERS BEING BLAMED & THE STORE LOSING ITS HASGACHA .
8:37 AM
Some mashgichim were replaced, and some vaad mashgichim were replaced as well. Can you also ask your Rav why those mashgichim were replaced? Does he know? Maybe he would bother to go check the big fat file that GG has on Vaad. They have letters from the vaad and letters that they answered in compliance and in explanation to every letter written to them from Eisen. Did Eisen bother to show any of the Rabbonim the replies to his complaints?
Did the Rabbonim think that his letters went unheeded and unanswered?
Avi, the vaad did not call for a boycott. Some individual rabbis did, but there's a huge difference. Also, what you are saying here is what most of us including om have been saying the whole time. But many people here are arguing that the vaad had no right to withdraw the hechsher. But the fact is that they did.
Let's call a spade a spade. If as everyone has claimed from day one that "ALL" the Rabbonim in town signed the Vaad letter, then ALL the Rabbonim in town told their Kehillos not to shop in GG. That is calling for a boycott in polite terms, nonetheless it is a boycott anyway you look at it.
Had the Rabbonim not made an announcement in their shuls that Friday, GG would still have a good and healthy amount of business today. Not all that many people in this neighborhood really care that the vaad gives the hechsher or not as long as they have a reliable hechsher. After all, The Katz's aren't under the vaad and everyone uses them. And there are other establishments that are not using the vaad and people continue to patronize them, so let's not get hot under the collar. Not all that many people care that the vaad pulled the hechsher.
The calculated announcements and pronouncements of the Rabbonim is what started the economic punishment of GG. This was clearly and precisely orchestrated by none other than the head ring leader. He went after them with a vengeance and he is enjoying his win. He doesn't care about us or this community. He could care less about the mistrust now or the loshon horah being said about the other Rabbonim here because he is not part of our community and is not a team player. He got what he wanted and feels that he won!! Whoopie for you, you are the big winner, but at what cost? Look what you did to your community. We were fine till you came here. We were a happy community and we loved and appreciated all those Rabbonim who were involved with the vaad hakashrus. We appreciated and respected Rabbi Chait for his hard work and the mashgichim that worked under him.
Now we know so much truth about the vaad and we know nothing about the vaad. We know that it isn't a non-profit organization. We know that the money the vaad collects from us goes to pay for an office that is hardly open, when Rabbi Chait used a space donated by the YI of Woodmere and had no overhead at all.
We know that our money goes to pay an exhorbitant salary to a Mashgiach who we can't seem to find in the neighborhood and whom we suspect is doing other things on our time.
And we also know by his own admission that he knows nothing about nikur and kashering meat.
So we now know that we ARE FORCED to support a vaad that will not answer our questions. That is not forthcoming with information. That is forcing a major player out of business when by their own words "it has nothing to do with kashrus". That is stepping out of the bounderies of Kashrus and into other areas of halacha and our lives if we allow them that power to do so.
We are being FORCED to agree that this is what we ALL want, only ONE supervising agency in the community without having a town hall meeting, shul meetings or private vote about it.
So the questions remain:
What do we ALL want?
Do we standby idly and watch RYE destroy this family and business?
IF he succeeds, who will be his next victim?
Do we want a vaad that doesn't have to answer to anyone? That has no checks and balances, no rules to follow?
Do we want a vaad that is a for profit organization that does not have to open their books to the community for auditing and review?
Do we want a monopoly situation or are we adult enough and smart enough to make our own decisions if we will patronize establishments that don't have proper Kashrus Supervision such as OU, KafK, OK, etc.
Do we turn the tables and make our feelings known and boycott the vaad? Refuse to pay the dues. Call your shul's bookkeeper and ask for a refund on the vaad's fee due to the fact that it is not a non-profit organization and you do not wish to support it. After all, I for one want to know why Rabbi Chait was fired, and what his salary was as compared to what RYE's salary is, and the justification for that and for the additional overhead of a new office.
That is one way of removing our support from the current vaad and letting them know how we feel about their boycott of GG and the way they have handled it. The other thing we can do is get a petition going in each shul or here on the web and then present it to the Rabbonim.
Either way you look at it, unless the Rabbonim come straight out and tell their Kehillos that it is up to each individual to decide whether or not to patronize GG, then each individual will understand that their Rabbi has a "horse in the race" and that is why he can't do it. After all Rabbi Kravitz has the same if not more training and experience as RYE, having both been trained and worked for the OU. Rabbi Kravitz, due to his age, has probably been in the business longer and is therefore more experienced and therefore should at least be given the same if not more respect and trust as they would have you give their own "horse".
Rumor has it that a 100% sale is imminent, waiting for approval and releases from all lawyers
The family would have to be idiots to sign such a release. They should sue the pants off of everyone and recoup the losses they have already incurred. If it were someone else, they probably would have turned ths store into "treif city" and invited the whole other oilem in for a huge sale. That would have fixed the vaad's wagons.
RYE makes them out to be "treif and untouchable", what if they would have actually done that, and turned it into another Stop and Shop, KeyFood or Food Town? Maybe they should sell it to one of those chains like KEY FOOD to get their money out. How would the vaad feel about that? Would that be better for the community? Wouldn't you just love bringing in yenem chevrah to go shopping in this beautiful store that was built for our convenience?
Would the vaad prefer that kind of treifus in this store smack in the middle of our little piece of heaven on earth? What kind of sheilos would that bring? Let's see.......another store open on Shabbos in the middle of town......more cars riding through town on Shabbos going to the grocery store...... another place for kids to buy beer and other things to go robotripping on........
Gee, I wonder why that nasty Bolender family didn't think of doing that? Maybe they aren't as smart as RYE? Or maybe they are not that cruel and vicious, and they are not looking to destroy our community. Wise up people and go speak to your own Rabbonim before its too late.
I heard western Beef supermarket is coming in.
""Anonymous said...
Avi, the vaad did not call for a boycott. Some individual rabbis did, but there's a huge difference. Also, what you are saying here is what most of us including om have been saying the whole time. But many people here are arguing that the vaad had no right to withdraw the hechsher. But the fact is that they did.
Let's call a spade a spade. If as everyone has claimed from day one that "ALL" the Rabbonim in town signed the Vaad letter, then ALL the Rabbonim in town told their Kehillos not to shop in GG. That is calling for a boycott in polite terms, nonetheless it is a boycott anyway you look at it.""
For the record I believe Rabbi Chait himself still does not know why he was fired. Eisen has portrayed himself to the Rabbis as a saviour. Increasing Mashgichim etc. As another post mentioned they merely need a letter stating they are Shomer Shabbos, need to have a certain look in some instances. I.E "frum/yeshivish" if they will be in contact with the public. Get no formal training, and this I have on the word of a few of them.
Sir, I would be glad to speak with you. Its about time something was done about this. My email is 5townsyid@gmail.com
RABBOSAI,
Wake up !! The rabbis of this community have committed an evil deed.They don't have the guts or the decency to do tshuvah.
Help nullify this evil decree.Ignore these spineless evil men.Shop at GG.
Please read and distribute the letter on this site:
www.unkosherkashrut.blogspot.com
It makes sense and articulates the issues very well .
The portrait painted of RYE is, unfortunately, quite accurate.. what is more unfortunate, is that we allowed ourselves to listen to our esteemed rabbis who never got the whole true story.. so, we have ruined the lives of 4 bolenders and over 50 employees.. yes, many of the employees are goyim so maybe we shouldnt count them.. I am ashamed to be part of the five towns now... though i do continue to show my shopping support of GG, some of my less intelligent friends have not shopped there since the boycott. AND YES, MY RABBI STATED CLEARLY WE WERE TO BOYCOTT. I understand the bolenders chose not to sue so as not to bring more negative attention to us jews. I also understand that others are now contacting the NY times and USA Today reporters.. This will bring all the yidden down all across the country.. I can only pray that HaShem will remember those of the Vaadwho perpetrated this action ( as well as those rabbonim who stood idly by) and their dirty actions taken against a family of jews and our community.
I just checked out that letter on
www.unkosherkashrut.blogspot.com
Wow!! that letter is really powerful- very well written.
Anyone that hasn't read it really should.
Anonymous said...
Does anyone know why Rabbi Chait was removed from heading the vaad?
December 20, 2006 9:12:00 AM PST
Rabbi Chaiet was the original mashgiach in town for many years.. he was summarily "executed" by RYE. RYE took over the controls of the vaad and stripped Rabbi Chaiet of his parnusa and his standing in the community. He was degraded by RYE on an ongoing basis. He was told by RYE that he had to be called every 1/2 hour to check in with RYE. He was so humiliated. He is still unemployed and was devastated by the way he was treated... I understand he was asked to be the mashgiach in the event of the vaad's pullout of their hechser.. His response was that he no longer has the strength to fight with RYE and the vaad.. Rabbi Chaiet was an ehrlicha mensch who did not deserve his treatment by RYE. Ask anyone around town about him....he was a well-respected mashgiach who only looked out for the community. his treatment by RYE pretty much led to a breakdown of sorts.. How saddened we all were by his departure from the five towns. he was always reachable and informative.
December 20, 2006 10:05:00 AM PST
Do we turn the tables and make our feelings known and boycott the vaad? Refuse to pay the dues. Call your shul's bookkeeper and ask for a refund on the vaad's fee due to the fact that it is not a non-profit organization and you do not wish to support it. After all, I for one want to know why Rabbi Chait was fired, and what his salary was as compared to what RYE's salary is, and the justification for that and for the additional overhead of a new office.
...................................When Rabbi Chait was runing the vaad it was run out of the young Israel Of woodmere .Go in there they still have a plack with his name on his old office. The vaad expenses were less than half of what they currently are now.
no one is going to challenge their shul by asking that their dues not include donations to the vaad. we yidden are sometimes like little lambs. unfortunately, that is what the vaad capitalizes on: our inability to challenge their authority. so, this is what we are teaching our children ( not mine, however, mine are taught to listen to their own minds and hearts and not follow blindly) I still shop at GG and if my friends wont eat by me...that is their loss.I am a phenomenal cook. But, more importantly, I am a devout jew who has a brain and a heart and will fight against tyranny of any kind...as the child of a survivor that is my legacy.
Rye asked gorgivness before Yom-kipur from Mr.Mrk Bolender HA HA HA
what a circus,
5t circus,the best in the world.....
No Blind Faith said...
This situation is horrendous. As 5 Town Yid points out, RYE has more skeletons in the closet than GG has bones in their soup.
Kosher Spot, was found with counterfeit Rubashkin labels that they were putting on the non-glatt meat they were selling for glatt.
At almost the same time, RYE was also supervising Nathan's of Flatbush who was caught with TREIF meat and was forced to close down.
I believe that there was an issue that was posted on another blog where it was revieled that Rabbi Kravitz himself, when he was head of the OU meat department told RYE not to give a hechsher to a Nathan's because it was a Treif chain and it would cause problems, but he didn't heed that advice.
It is therefore assumed that there is friction between RYE and Kravitz and that is why RYE is so offended that GG hired Kravitz for position. It just fired him up more and his ego won't let him back down.
Even after Rabbi Belsky, his own RAV, took him to task for doing what he is doing. He was furious that someone called Rabbi Belsky and told him what was going on in the neighborhood.
I have another question to ask. Why did Rabbi Brofman feel it was his place to tell R' Feinstein to stay out of it. Personaly I feel that was tremendous chutzpah considering that he was asked to get involved and did not just choose to step in uninvited.
December 20, 2006 12:43:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
I have another question to ask. Why did Rabbi Brofman feel it was his place to tell R' Feinstein to stay out of it. Personaly I feel that was tremendous chutzpah considering that he was asked to get involved and did not just choose to step in uninvited.
December 20, 2006 12:43:00 PM PST
Of Course the vaad is going to stand together on asking no one else to intercede...then the whole yiddishe world would know how the vaad put a jewish store out of business for no VALID reason..What the vaad doesnt realize is just how many people are incensed over this miscarriage of "kashrus justice" by the vaad. This scenario has made it over to israel's Rabbonim.. Our Vaad is just getting deeper and deeper in "----" The correct stance to now take is.." we didnt realize that the Rabbi we trusted could be so deceitful..we sincerely apologise to GG and to the Five Towns community at large and hope we can put this horrible situation behind us and move on for the good of our community and our children."
HaHa Ha--- like the vaad would ever admit wrongdoing?? has KOLKO or Mondrowitz? so what can we expect from our own Rabbis?
December 20, 2006 1:39:00 PM PST
tzadik1 said...
"What the vaad doesnt realize is just how many people are incensed over this miscarriage of "kashrus justice" by the vaad. "
So then why aren't people doing anything about it- like shopping there. If everyone is as incensed as you claim this store shouldn't be hurting the way it is. Unless all these incensed people that you speak of are afraid to do something about this miscarriage of justice in which case we all better take a good look at ourselves in the mirror.
December 20, 2006 6:26:00 PM PST
"So then why aren't people doing anything about it- like shopping there. If everyone is as incensed as you claim this store shouldn't be hurting the way it is. Unless all these incensed people that you speak of are afraid to do something about this miscarriage of justice in which case we all better take a good look at ourselves in the mirror. "
December 20, 2006 6:26:00 PM PST
Look only to most of the blogs to see how upset people are over this injustice. Go the the UNKOSHERKASHRUT.Blogspot.com to read about the community sponsored letter. Yes, most of the community is terrified of upsetting the vaad; how will they feel when the vaad is disbanded due to the soon to come publicity. How will we all feel when GG is out of business... Can we look in the mirror or go to shul with a clear heart and head...most of us will not be able to do this or, more likely, we will justify our actions.. Maybe we do deserve all the anti-semitism out there. WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY> have a good shabbos this week.
9:45 PM
I think one thing we should all do is make copies of the open letter on www.unkosherkashrut.blogspot.com and distribute or leave them in the shuls we daven at. Not enough people I speak to seem to know anything about whats going on. And we can't even get together (as a community in shul) to talk about it beacue all the shul rabbis are on the vaad.
Anonymous said...
is it possible that the vaad made a mega mistake in hiring a thug? and a thug that doesnt know a nikkur from a nickel? That, when warned about his supervision of a nathan's hotdog store,,,summarily ignored rabbi kravitz and the nathans was found to be selling Treif? what kind of check did our rabbonim do prior to giving RYE so much money and so much power....what the vaad is guilty of is not verifying RYE's job history. and we give big bucks to the vaad...shouldnt we have some say in who they hire? obviously, anyone can be a mashgiach for the vaad - that is why so many have been fired due to poor training by RYE. wake up five towns...if the poorly trained mashgiach from the vaad are supervising Brach and Supersol I am very worried.. At least Rabbi Kravitz has an impeccable reputation. Speak to any rabbis who have dealt with Rabbi Kravitz.
December 20, 2006 7:46:00 PM PST
mr. confused said...
rabbi chait seemed to be much more knowledgble than RYE. What was the story behind his departure?
December 20, 2006 8:46:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
what happened to the sale people were talking about yesterday.
And did that tough guy ever contact the news stations? its past 5 pm. We need some updates guys.
December 20, 2006 8:56:00 PM PST
5Towns Yid said...
what kind of check did our rabbonim do prior to giving RYE so much money and so much power....what the vaad is guilty of is not verifying RYE's job history. and we give big bucks to the vaad...shouldnt we have some say in who they hire? obviously, anyone can be a mashgiach for the vaad - that is why so many have been fired due to poor training by RYE. wake up five towns...if the poorly trained mashgiach from the vaad are supervising Brach and Supersol I am very worried.. At least Rabbi Kravitz has an impeccable reputation. Speak to any rabbis who have dealt with Rabbi Kravitz.
December 20, 2006 7:46:00 PM PST
As far as I understand Supersol has no Mashgiach Temidi in the store ( I believe a number of stores do not). RYE allows them to turn on the fires etc. Their is apparently a checklist in the cooking area that they initial or sign every so often or every time they light a fire. (My source was hesitant to go into further details.)
Do you really think if the flame goes out and the Goy is in a rush he is going to go look for a frum authorized yid ?
Don't forget these are the same frum yidden RYE says can not be trusted even for catering a cold bris in a local "Vaad" shul. Because some of the platters are "real" and not disposables a mashgiach must be present. Or since a Frum Manager/staff ( again he is the "mashgiach " in the store)is present people "see" these jobs not as "drop-offs", but as catered events. Again therefore requiring a Mashgiach. If RYE would only see his foolishness the fewer jobs that do need a true mashgiach would have competent ones.
December 20, 2006 9:34:00 PM PST
No Blind Faith said...
The Rabbis did make a mistake and I think we should refer to them as "the Rabbis" and to the "Vaad" as RYE or RYE and Rabbi R who started this whole mess by telling RYE that the owners of GG weren't Shomer Shabbos.
Remember that they wanted to post on the certificate who was Shomer Shabbos and who wasn't. Does everyone remember whose brilliant idea that was? This was a witch hunt from the beginning and I am shocked that it has gotten this far. I am also shocked that the intelligent people of this community have not gone back to their own Rabbonim and told them straight out, we love, we respect you, but in this instance we can not and will not back you up. There is no basis for boycotting GG and we don't understand why you did not call for a boycott of Brachs after he raised the prices when we came flocking to his doors.
We don't understand why it was OK for us to shop at Trader Joe's, Key Food, Stop and Shop and Food Town that sell Pork and Ham, but it wasn't OK for us to go into a perfectly ligitimately kosher store that is filled to the brim with Kosher products whose Vaad Mashgiach was still working there because the Vaad was too chicken to fire.
Pride and ego is a terrible thing, you allowed the pride and ego of this man, this employee of this so called Vaad Hakashrus to turn our neighborhood upside down. His pride and ego, Rabbi R's and RYE's need to shut this family down, caused neighbors' to stop sharing meals together, caused loshon horah to keep growing in the community, and caused a huge chilul hashem wherever newspapers are distributed and blogs are read.
This doesn't even cover the chilul hashem that was created among the goyim who have worked side by side with the owners and the customers for years and years. The hole, that our Rabbonim have dug for themselves keeps getting larger and larger and RYE doesn't care. And do you kow who else doesn't care? Rabbi R doesn't care because he isn't a member of the Vaad and he didn't sign the letter.
He is also not part of the negotiations, he is only instigating and controling RYE from the outside. Here is a question for all our inquisitive bloggers. Why did Rabbi R bring RYE to this neighborhood. What did he owe him? What kind of deal did they make at Kehilah after the Stop and Shop and Nathan's disaster?
Anyone who doesn't approach their own Rav about this is a fool. You have all punished GG for far too long. As far as I am concerned, I love the Rebbeim in this community dearly, but they don't know how to run a Vaad Hakashrush. If they really cared about this community, they would just ask the Vaad of Queens to step in and supervise our local stores. Let the Vaad of Queens be the only ONE reliabe hechsher that we accept here in this community. Let them hire the mashgichim. Let them train the mashgichim from right here within this community, and I think we can all agree that they are a well run organization and they can be trusted without a doubt. Anyone that wishes to check them out can look them up on the internet. They have a website that post their rules and rates, etc.
The vaad of 5 towns should close down because no one here is responsible enough to run it and be accountable to the neighborhood for any problems that arise. Let's bring in the Vaad of Queens where there will be the same strict standards for all establishments, no favoritism, and no prejudice. Then the Rabbonim will be happy that there is only ONE focused vaad that all the Rabbonim approve of for their kehillos and they would not have to dirty their hands with any of this mess anymore.
December 20, 2006 11:10:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
this solution of bringing in the vaad of queens is quite funny. like the vaad of the five towns would EVER allow anyone to usurp their dominion.. someone should write a book about this fiasco. if that individual wants an insider interview...please post yur name or email here and i will contact you when i get back from israel.. shabbat shalom.
December 21, 2006 4:53:00 AM PST
5 Towns Yid said...
Anonymous said...
someone should write a book about this fiasco. if that individual wants an insider interview...please post yur name or email here and i will contact you when i get back from israel.. shabbat shalom.
December 21, 2006 4:53:00 AM PST
As you know I am privy to certain info and collect additional as well. I would be glad to hear from you when you return from Israel.
My email remains 5townsyid@gmail.com
To the supposed woman who emailed me to "unmask myself". Thanks but no thanks, though your welcome to email me again in Chodesh Adar.
December 21, 2006 5:47:00 AM PST
Anonymous said...
"To the supposed woman who emailed me to "unmask myself". Thanks but no thanks, though your welcome to email me again in Chodesh Adar."
Post this "supposed" woman's email. We would all like a good laugh.
December 21, 2006 6:53:00 AM PST
tzadik1 said...
No blind faith- Great post. I think you made some great points. We all just have to continue to spread the inconsistencies of the vaad to our friends. Because somehow eventhough the boycott makes no sense. The majority of people in our community are still not shopping there. GG is really hurting.
December 21, 2006 6:59:00 AM PST
Anonymous said...
I think one thing we should all do is make copies of the open letter on this site and distribute or leave them in the shuls we daven at. Not enough people I speak to seem to know anything about whats going on. And we can't even get together (as a community in shul) to talk about it beacue all the shul rabbis are on the vaad.
December 21, 2006 7:50:00 AM PST
5 Towns Yid said...
2 points I'd like to make.
1) Supersol as i am told does have a mashgiach thoug i'm not sure how temidi he is. Today 12/21/06 there is no Mashgiach in the store. I was told this by someone and went myself to confirm it.
Supersol apparently called the Vaad/RYE about this and shockingly enough they have yet to get a reply.
2) Regarding the request for this womans email who asked I unmask myself. I will not give it out. I have not once yet identified any of my sources, be they in person, over the phone or online.
As always feel free to email me at 5townsyid@gmail.com
P.S. Anyone try and call the number posted as RYE's cell phone?
I bet he does not pick up. i'd be interested in some feedback.
December 21, 2006 9:04:00 AM PST
shorty44 said...
"P.S. Anyone try and call the number posted as RYE's cell phone?
I bet he does not pick up. i'd be interested in some feedback."
I would try him but have nothing to say to him. any suggestions?
December 21, 2006 2:22:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
"P.S. Anyone try and call the number posted as RYE's cell phone?"
Whats his #? I didn't see it posted.
December 21, 2006 4:38:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
As far as I understand RYE can be reached at the Vaad office 516 569 4536 or at 646 739 2466. Good luck- and let us know how your conversation goes.
December 21, 2006 4:47:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
I can't post my name here, but I emailed 5 towns yid, because I support GG wholeheartedly and have from day one. I am serious about doing anything I can to help them.
5 Towns yid - if you have been as supportive as I have been, and have been in touch with the family from day one, I am sure that they would confirm to you that I have been a staunch supporter as well.
After confirming with them, you can then answer my email. Maybe together we can figure out some way to go out into the masses and do something productive to turn things around.
December 21, 2006 7:58:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
Why do our Rabbonim need the headache of having a Five Towns vaad? I don't believe that they want it or need it.
I believe, especially after this fiasco, if they were pressured by the community to bring the Queens Vaad in, they would probably agree. The only one that would have a fit would be Rabbi R, but he is running his own one man show regardless.
December 21, 2006 8:01:00 PM PST
achdus said...
"I can't post my name here, but I emailed 5 towns yid, because I support GG wholeheartedly and have from day one. I am serious about doing anything I can to help them.
5 Towns yid - if you have been as supportive as I have been, and have been in touch with the family from day one, I am sure that they would confirm to you that I have been a staunch supporter as well."
If your not posting who you are how can we confirm how supportive you have been? And why can't you post your name? What are you afraid of? Also when you and 5 towns yid come up with some ideas let us all know- we are all interested in helping out.
The point of this blog is so we can all work together- post here as opposed to private emails. ok?
December 21, 2006 8:04:00 PM PST
tzadik1 said...
"I believe, especially after this fiasco, if they were pressured by the community to bring the Queens Vaad in, they would probably agree. "
Do you know any of these rabbis??? They would never agree to bringing in an outisde vaad. By allowing another vaad in our neighborhood they would think it shows weakness and incompetence on their part. And they would never go for that.
December 21, 2006 8:07:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
"The only one that would have a fit would be Rabbi R, but he is running his own one man show regardless."
Well rabbi R is not even officially part of the vaad.
December 21, 2006 8:11:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
One aspect of this whole saga that i feel has not been mentioned is how wimpy our local jewish newspapers have been in reporting this story. I do not feel any of them really applied pressure on the rabbis for answers or comments. Also they have all fallen off the map they don't even cover the story anymore. This is the biggest issue in the 5 towns right now and there are never any updates. Whats the deal?? Are they afraid to report facts??? If so then they should hang em up now and find new careers.
December 21, 2006 8:18:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
Yes actually I do know many of the Rabbonim and they are very busy with so many other things. I don't really think they would mind giving up the VAAD. The only person really all heated up about the vaad is Rabbi R and RYE who is relying on it for his $$$$. And as mentiioned before Rabbi R has his own game going. So if the Rabbonim wanted just one supervising agency so they can have some control in the community and they can agree that the Vaad of Queens is very reliable, I think they would be happy to give it up.
Look do you really believe that a man like Rabbi Dovid Weinberger has extra time on his hands to play this game, or Rabbi Moshe Weinberger, or Rabbi Leibowitz, or Rabbi Ginzberg or Rabbi Flaum...etc.
All these Rabbonim are so busy with other jobs and individual community commitments and assistance. It is a tircha for them each time they get summoned to hearings and meetings. They do it to service the community, but it backfired in their faces because they were manipulated by the KINGS of manipulation.
At this point, I think they would be happy to let someone else do it.
December 21, 2006 8:22:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
If your not posting who you are how can we confirm how supportive you have been?
It was a private email to 5 towns yid and it is he who knows who I am and it is he who can confirm it. I was foolish to write him from my regular email address. I should have been more careful. I thought he was honest and sincere about helping and didn't know he would use my email to ridicule me.
December 21, 2006 8:25:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
"It was a private email to 5 towns yid and it is he who knows who I am and it is he who can confirm it. I was foolish to write him from my regular email address. I should have been more careful. I thought he was honest and sincere about helping and didn't know he would use my email to ridicule me."
Ridicule you? What did he do? He seems sincere to me.
December 21, 2006 8:33:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
"Look do you really believe that a man like Rabbi Dovid Weinberger has extra time on his hands to play this game, or Rabbi Moshe Weinberger, or Rabbi Leibowitz, or Rabbi Ginzberg or Rabbi Flaum...etc."
Yes, I think they have time in their hands to do this stuff. Part of their jobs as rabbis is to service the community. Also none of those rabbis are involved in day to day operations of the vaad so its not really all that time consuming. And the small amount of time that was needed to make sure things went correctly with this whole situation wasn't even given- they rushed to sign a piece of paper without the facts. Sad and unfortunate.
December 21, 2006 8:37:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
"It was a private email to 5 towns yid and it is he who knows who I am and it is he who can confirm it. I was foolish to write him from my regular email address. I should have been more careful. I thought he was honest and sincere about helping and didn't know he would use my email to ridicule me."
What he respond to you. This is a blog we share all :)
December 21, 2006 8:38:00 PM PST
"Anonymous said...
Why do our Rabbonim need the headache of having a Five Towns vaad? I don't believe that they want it or need it.
I believe, especially after this fiasco, if they were pressured by the community to bring the Queens Vaad in, they would probably agree. The only one that would have a fit would be Rabbi R, but he is running his own one man show regardless. "
December 21, 2006 8:01:00 PM PST
Was this supposed to be a tongue in cheek comment...??? You have to be kidding? The Vaad takes in SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS in our donations.. Why would THEY give it up. Do you really think it only pays for the staff and office fees? Are you all that naive about our rabbis? Is any of it ( all the extra $$$ )going back to the community??? wE yidden really are not as intelligent as we think.
No Blind Faith said...
Also none of those rabbis are involved in day to day operations of the vaad so its not really all that time consuming.
This isn't really the case since with this particular situation, the reason RYE had such a huge file was that he kept shlepping them in before the vaad panel for citings and violations. Each time he did this, a group of vaad Rabbonim had to gather. I believe this was also a calculated ploy on the part of RYE because it was irritating and time consuming for the Rabbonim to have to make time to keep being summoned "only" for the GG improprieties.
So when things came to a head with the "mysterious" chickens that were never produced, the Rabbonim where probably already annoyed at GG and were used to seeing Mark Bolender questioned and put on the spot by RYE. What they saw in him was someone who was fed up and frustrated with being picked on by RYE. He always had an answer and probably came off looking like a know-it-all and looking to put RYE in his place. Instead of someone coming in contrite and ready to oblige and obey whatever the vaad Rabbonim would tell him.
Mark had good reason to come in on the defensive, but what was deffensive behavior for a stressed out individual came across as extremely arrogant and uncooperative in front of any of the numerous Rabbonim that were called upon on various occassions.
That is why, our Rabbonim were so easily manipulated by RYE. The Rabbonim "thought" they knew the whole story, which they didn't. They only saw what they were set up to see. That is why they banned together and where so eager to sign the letter. They were manipulated to do so. The only one who actually "refused" to sign was Rabbi Spiegel.
December 21, 2006 9:26:00 PM PST
Anonymous said...
TO NO BLIND FAITH...YOUR LAST POST WAS AMAZING AND RIGHT ON TARGET.. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE. SEND THIS POST TO ALL THE RABBIS IN PERSON, IF POSSIBLE, THEY WILL SEE HOW ALL THIS CAME ABOUT...FOR SOMEONE IS NOT A FAMILY MEMBER, YOU SEEM TO HAVE AN UNBELIEVABLE HANDLE ON THE WHOLE SITUATION.. AND I KNOW YOU SO I KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT A BOLENDER..JUST A WONDERFUL, BRIGHT INDIVIDUAL WHO SAW AN INJUSTICE AND TOOK IT AS A PERSONAL MISSION TO CORRECT.. I WISH YOU ONLY THE VERY BEST IN LIFE. GOOD SHABBOS TO A TRUE JEW.
December 22, 2006 5:41:00 AM PST
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