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Tuesday, January 02, 2007

Is This The Next Frontier in Five Towns Kosher Certification?

YNet describes a new sort of Kosher certification in the Bnei Brak neighborhood:
Posters of a 'White List' of clothing stores deemed Kosher by ultra-Orthodox standards popped up everywhere on Monday in the Bnei Brak haredi town.

The posters call for women to only purchase clothes from the 30 approved stores as these establishments comply with the strict laws and regulations of haredi religion.

Women are requested to cooperate with the initiative (dreamt up by the men of the 'Guard of the House of Jacob', the organization which oversees all the rabbinical courts in Bnei Brak) and only shop at the aforementioned 30 stores so as to empower the pious stores.
Still, somehow I don't see that happening on this side of the world.

26 Comments:

Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

I wonder what it costs to wind up on the apporved list?

9:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

om.. a little early in the am, isn't it, for tongue in cheek?

9:37 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

om.. a little early in the am, isn't it, for tongue in cheek?


Not for me. I had my first coffee hours ago.

9:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't we already haved this with Rabbi R's approved list?

9:57 AM  
Blogger rescue said...

It would make shupping easier for my wife. Now she has to go into a store and explain to the frum lady trying to sell her clothes that skin tight outfits and skirts that that don't pass the knee when sitting down are not considerd tzniustdik and that she doesn't care if everyone else wears them.

10:00 AM  
Blogger flatbushrenegade said...

Ask any clothing store owner, they are buisness people, they sell what the customers want. If customers come in seeking tighter, lower cut clothing, they'll provide it. They make the same profit irregardless of how tzniudik the clothing are. The tznius patrol is going about it all wrong. Instead of educating society about the beauty and sanctity of a Bas Yisroel, they are simply trying to flex thier muscles. This leads me to believe that thier motives are more about power than Kiddush Hashem.

10:14 AM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

"Instead of educating society about the beauty and sanctity of a Bas Yisroel, they are simply trying to flex thier muscles. This leads me to believe that thier motives are more about power than Kiddush Hashem. "

What do you mean instead of? There's plenty of educating about Tznius - no reason acting to enforce certain standards precludes that.

Separately, I find it quite disturbing how easily many people ascribe actions of Rabbonim to personal power trips or self-interest. This attitude has existed since Korah told Moshe and Aaron "rav lachem" and has never ended well.

10:21 AM  
Blogger flatbushrenegade said...

"What do you mean instead of? There's plenty of educating about Tznius - no reason acting to enforce certain standards precludes that."

I was referring to the 'Guard of the House of Jacob' members. They dreamt up this list. Did they precede it with lectures, school projects, going door to door? If so why haven't I heard about it. I'm not talking about the gathering in Yerushalayim (for men only) I'm talking about Bnei Brak. I have no problem with trying to instill standards, but concentrating the efforts at the store level is silly. If the masses wouldn't buy it, they wouldn't be selling it.

"Separately, I find it quite disturbing how easily many people ascribe actions of Rabbonim to personal power trips or self-interest."

Who is talking about 'rabbanim'? Do you actually think that R' Chaim Kanievsky, or R' Aharon Leib, or R' Michel Yehudah, or R' Vosner called someone to their homes and said "I think you should start boycotting the stores that sell tight clothing". If so you are very naive about how these things get rolling. What happened was someone came up with the idea, and MAY have asked one or more of the rabbanim if it would be ok to tell people to support stores that will only sell tzniusdik clothing. Now, which rav would say no to that. The power trip I was referring to was that of the approacher, not the approachee. The approacher was in it for the glory and the power, if not, why did he not ask if it would be a good idea to go door to door lecturing. The answer is, that there's no glory in knocking on someone's door, while there's plenty of pride in being able to say, "we got them to do what we wanted"

10:41 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"There's plenty of educating about Tznius - no reason acting to enforce certain standards precludes that."

No. Absolutely wrong!!! There's no education. More like inculcation. And manipulation. And victimization.

The girls are downright harrased about tznius from first grade to the point of mental and psychological submission. Those who resist are branded as bad, bummy, bad influences, provacative, slutty, and the cause of men doing aveiros.

This is pure, unadulterated psychological manipulation and spiritual abuse.

And those who graduate this gulag of guilt with a fraction of self-esteem resolve to dress as they want, when they want -- except, of course, when waiting in the carpool line for their daughters, who they inexplicablys end to the same type of abusive schools.

So, no, the jackass rabbis who think they have all the answers but DON'T, need to stop harrasing and manipulating women and thinking for a change.

These clueless dolts, disguised as holy men and the Daas Torah torch bearers, have screwed up more Jewish minds than anyone can quantify.

11:22 AM  
Blogger flatbushrenegade said...

"The girls are downright harrased about tznius from first grade to the point of mental and psychological submission. Those who resist are branded as bad, bummy, bad influences, provacative, slutty, and the cause of men doing aveiros."

Please don't misconstrue my singling out this portion of SW's comment as an inference that I agree with any other part of his comment. The comment disgusts me in its entirety.
However, I'd like to ask how many girls he has in the Bais Yaakov system. I personally have 3 girls in Bais Yaakovs in Brooklyn, one in high school and two in elementary school. I can honestly say that niether I nor my daughters have ever experienced any of the harrassment he has described. On the contrary, my wife and I feel that there could be more in the area of Tznius education, and my wife is constantly cutting articles, bringing home books, etc. to supplement what we feel is a less than adequate focus on tznius in the schools.

12:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This varies alot from Rabbi Reisman's list. Rabbi Reisman makes his list as a service to HIS shul. He does not try to push it towards the general 5 towns population.

3:24 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

Ahem ... one man's harassment is another man's perfect girls' education.

Call it what you want ... but no matter how you perceive your experience, the reality is that your daughters are being pounded into a spiritual stupor.

If that's your goal in chinuch, then kol hakavod! At least you're getting the best bang for your tuition dollars.

5:30 PM  
Anonymous Ariella said...

A modest proposal (pun intended)
Teach women the actual halachos as well as a sensitivity to effect of an outfit, which is more than the sum of its hemlines and necklines. That may be better achieved by allowing girls to choose their own outfits for school on occasion so that the world is not divided between dowdy uniforms and hot fashion outfits. They should be able to make educated choices once they are adults.

Most women shop in food stores that carrt some nonkosher products. It is up to the consumer to make the right selections. The same holds true of clothing.
This new decree indicates that women are not to be trusted to exercise their own judgment. But, practically speaking, women have to be relied upon for the most critical issues.
I touched on this in http://kallahmagazine.com/WordPress/?p=213

5:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

if RYE has his way, sure thing

5:59 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"This new decree indicates that women are not to be trusted to exercise their own judgment. But, practically speaking, women have to be relied upon for the most critical issues. "

Sounds nice in theory, but the average chareidi rabbi thinks woman are retarded baby machines who are too feeble minded to do any of the above without strict rabbinic guidance. Deal with it.

9:43 PM  
Anonymous Your conscience said...

To Still Wonderin'
I would like to address your entire diatribe on this subject. I attended an extremely orthodox yeshiva in Brooklyn pre-uniform days. As a matter of fact, the uniforms came into effect the year after I graduated. It was a school of mixed levels of frumkeit. There were kids from Yeshivish, Chassidish and mainstream orthodoxy. I was in the mainstream group. The school lived by teaching more Yiras Hashem than Ahavas Hashem. They constantly got on our cases about the way we dressed, even too nice was attacked, even if it was completely tznius. We were even watched on weekends. More than one button open on your shirt, nailpolish, slits? That being said, even though I was harrassed, and inculcated with TZNIUS according to their standards, I did not rebel. I did not comply either. I do not wear tight clothes. I do not wear short skirts. I do not wear slits up to there. I do not wear short sleeves. I do not wear wide neck or low neck shirts.

Just because a school tries to drive home the meaning of tznius does not mean "harrassment". If your office has a dress code, and your employee insists on wearing clothes inappropriate for the office, is it harrassment to "get on his/her case" to comply with the rules? The schools have a dress code. The Torah has a dress code. There is a reason for it. Men also have rules of tznius. So this subject is not for women only.

One more thing. How can a man, be it a father or a husband, allow (and I mean that loosely translated) his daughter/wife to be seen entirely in public. I have seen the outline of every piece of underwear (or lack thereof)and entire body oulines as if there were no clothes on at all! That goes especially to the 7-9 months pregnant stage. You can see the baby's every movement. It embarrases me as a woman and as a mother with teenage sons.

Take a step back and look objectively at what you are wearing. Analyze it. Does it show your body to perfection? Yes? Then get the next size. No one is looking inside your clothes to see what size you are. Only you care.

9:52 PM  
Blogger flatbushrenegade said...

"Call it what you want ... but no matter how you perceive your experience, the reality is that your daughters are being pounded into a spiritual stupor."

You mean you actually believe you have a better feel for what my daughters are experiencing than I do?!?!! I now understand where all of your rediculous rants come from. You are such an egotistical maniac, that you believe that you know better than anyone else! You can call gedolim jack***es because YOU know better! You believe chareidi women are "retarded baby making machines" because YOU don't understand that there are women that get a complete sense of accomplishment from raising a family. After all, how could anyone get a sense of accomplishment from serving G-d, if I need more than that (don't get me wrong, there are many ways to serve G-d, but if a chareidi women chooses this path, it doesn't mean that she is retarded) After all since they aren't behaving in the way which I would choose, they MUST all be retarded. The fact that there are many women who come from secular backgrounds that have been exposed to all the secular world has to offer, and still CHOOSE to raise large families only means that they too are retarded.

11:03 PM  
Blogger MDmom said...

it's not only about the tzniut of the actual clothing. it is also about the image that a certain store puts across. there are several major chain stores here that advertise in a way that could only be described as shockingly blatantly sexual, including nudity, scenes of debasement, and sign-language profanity. after a loud grassroots campaign in my strongly modern orthodox community coupled with an unofficial ban of these stores, led by our non-orthodox mayor, we succeeded in having their posters removed from street and bus stop advertising, and i would not be surprised if the same thing happened in other family-oriented towns as well. this is advertising you would not find anywhere in america because any self-respecting ad agency would not let it get past the conference room. (and i am aware of how companies advertise in america today, i haven't been here that long, and i've been back several times). the images portrayed by the ads of those stores in question is not one which any self-respecting woman, let alone one who is torah and mitzva abiding, would want to be associated with.

2:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The skimpiest outfits, the highest slits the lowest cut cannnot make an ugly girl/woman look hot. A hot woman looks that no matter what. What's this I just heard that in certain frum communities a long skirt/dress is not permitted?

8:37 AM  
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10:53 PM  
Anonymous getreal said...

To your conscience

Enforcing office dress codes is not harrassment but if it included being "watched on weekends" it most certainly would be.

Flatbushrenegade said

"don't get me wrong, there are many ways to serve G-d, but if a chareidi women chooses this path, it doesn't mean that she is retarded)"

You're obviously assuming these women are making a "choice". Now there's a joke.

9:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i agree with the above post...yu are assuming that a woman truly has a choice.

this is a "choice" to be part of the charedi community, just like a cedarhurst woman chooses to live in the area and adhere to her rav psaks ( no matter how stupid or irresponsible they may be). there are so many factions now of judaism, a woman can make her choice. yes, if she chooses to get out from under oppression, she will be ostrazied by her family and the neighbors. all CLOSED COMMUNITIES seem to operate the same way. this is how cults or extremists of any sect control their women. why do you all think that charedi is anything more than a cult of jews.

4:05 PM

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