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Saturday, December 30, 2006

Local Rav Speaks on GG Affair

A certain neighborhood Rav spoke this morning on the Gourmet Glatt affair. One comment he made that gave me pause was that it's a "kitrig" (a prosecutor) on the community that so many people were questioning their Rabbis. And he went on to give a source of that (mis)information to be the fact that there were so many comments on blogs criticizing the Vaad, and saying all sorts of terrible things about their Rabbanim. This misconception is something I have actually tried to correct here numerous times before, and I will take this opportunity to do so again. The vast, vast majority of commenters here were completely supportive of the Vaad. As a matter of fact, the anti-Vaad commenters all came from a small handful of IP addresses, leading me to believe that most comments were from a very select group. In contrast, just about every person I have encountered (save two), both in real life and in the blogworld, has expressed to me support and trust in the Vaad's actions.

So it's a bit sad to me that this Rav is willing to be Choshed his entire community based on some anonymous comments on my blog he obviously read himself or was told about. Especially after his community has shown him and the other members of the Vaad such unwavering support in the face of this very difficult situation. As a matter of fact, somewhat contradictorily, he did note that the way it all worked out was a Kiddush Hashem, probably referring to the fact that the main reason it all worked had much to do with the community overwhelmingly following the directives of their Rabbanim by not shopping in GG. Unfortunately, he focused far more on the few anonymous complainers than he did on the overwhelming supportive actions of the community as a whole. I am disappointed with the Rav's choice not to take this opportunity to positively reinforce his congregation by praising their show of support. Any expert will tell you that people respond far better to positive reinforcement than negative. I wish that our Rabbinic leadership would internalize this point.

I see this fixation on negative reinforcement in Orthodoxy in the way my daughter's school emphasizes Tzniut, I see it in the way my son's Yeshiva exhorts he and his peers to shun television and internet. I see it in the way my children's administrators threaten punishment for bad behavior instead of implementing a better system of positive reinforcement and reward in advance of the bad behavior surfacing. And I am well aware that this type of Mussar is an important tool for a Rav to use with his followers. But in this instance, when there is so much positive behavior that the Rav can praise in his congregants, one has to wonder why he seized the opportunity to criticize - particularly in a case such as this, when the bad behavior wasn't even there, but made of just so much smoke and mirrors.

107 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

who was that rav?

10:30 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

If I wanted to include his name, I would have. Please do not leave his name in the comments. That's really not the point of this post.

10:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It will come out OM-this town is leakier than a 50 year old faucet!

10:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ironic how you focused on the Kitrug comment but not on the clear contempt the Rav has for bloggers, and you in particular!

If you really do respect the Rav, perhaps you should "internalize" that.

10:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

orthomom you obviously don't have the sefer shmires haloshen
please post your home address so i can ship you the sefer
the price is ONLY $10

10:35 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...


Anonymous said...

It will come out OM-this town is leakier than a 50 year old faucet!



That really isn't the point. He spoke to a shul full of people. I just don't feel like posting names is necessary to the point of this post.

10:38 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"One comment he made that gave me pause was that it's a "kitrig" (a prosecutor) on the community that so many people were questioning their Rabbis."

Does this Rabbi have any idea how the Vaad's poor communications nearly wrecked the kashrus hierarchy of this community? The fact that people were just questioning and not telling rabbonim like him to go-to-hell is the most remarkable thing about this whole sordid affair.

10:38 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"I see this fixation on negative reinforcement in Orthodoxy in the way my daughter's school emphasizes Tzniut, I see it in the way my son's Yeshiva exhorts he and his peers to shun television and internet."

This is called spiritual abuse. And it's abundance is why Brooklyn is one of the most dysfunctional places on earth.

10:39 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

Ironic how you focused on the Kitrug comment but not on the clear contempt the Rav has for bloggers, and you in particular!

If you really do respect the Rav, perhaps you should "internalize" that.


Actually, I think that is quite a misrepresentation. He expressed contempt for people going on the internet and writing their opinions.

As a matter of fact, in this context he was clearly criticizing those who COMMENT on blogs as well.

Perhaps you should internalize that.

10:40 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

" And I am well aware that this type of Mussar is an important tool for a Rav to use with his followers."

You're right. It is a tool. But it's a tool of manipulation, which should not be tolerated.

10:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 10:39 pm

but a sick story like this would have never happend in any part of brooklyn.

so think before you type
you silly five towners

10:41 PM  
Anonymous AVI said...

Next step RYE out of this once tranquil community!

10:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9507E3D71E3DF93BA35753C1A9669C8B63&sec=travel&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

This will bring you to Marcelle Fishlers article published October 2000
You must be a guy-an arrogant lazy know-it-all-too busy griping to actually do a little legwork-I pity your wife!

10:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

avi goldstein are you back on?

10:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yeah, "avi goldstein" is back on. and call me michael bloomberg.

10:46 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"but a sick story like this would have never happend in any part of brooklyn."

You are so stupid my computer slows down every time you comment.

None of this could happen in Brooklyn because there are 10,000 yokel rabbis running around with their hands out posing as some holier than thou hechsher provider. So no one knows anything and they just eat where they hold and look down on those who eat where they wouldn't.

AND....the problem leads back to a time when the Vaad in Flatbush was challenged and they dealt with the problem in an inneffective way.

And this, you dolt, is exactly why the Vaad needs to be supported. BECAUSE, no matter what your agenda is, things could be 1,000 times worse without the Vaad.

10:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So you answer a negative speech with your own negative blog. Why does this Rav need to have you criticize him anonymously. Even if he did overreact in the speech. He didnt mention anyone specific. You did, even if you didnt say his name. You have a problem with him, give him a call. And all the people in that shul who rush to email you every time he says something, should really stop it.

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

or a million times BETTER

10:48 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Why does this Rav need to have you criticize him anonymously

He chose to criticize the community based on evidence that was extremely tenuous. I am offended, especially considering how the community defied the predictions of naysayers and respected their Rabbanim en masse.

10:51 PM  
Anonymous an innocent victim said...

to avi goldstein

can i have your tel #


i have something important to discuss.

thank you

10:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

send a email to @gourmetdiscussion@yahoo.com

10:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

its truley unbelievable that orthomom is saying that her rabbi should be PROUD of her and her friends for NOT shopping in GG and ruining the business. do you have no shame orthomom?

10:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is the sort of thing that turns Jews off of orthodoxy. All this bickering and in-fighting. And to what purpose? It will not make the world a better place. It only makes the world a bitter place.

11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great post. Negative reinforcement is a major problem with Orthodoxy today. Our kids are running for the hills because they don't to be force-fed like geese. There must be some way to put an end to this terribly off-putting trend.

11:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AMEN to that!

11:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone, please send these blogs to Marcelle.. She can be influential and, at the worst, she will expose The hypocrisy of the five town jews... How sad for the rest of us who try to lead quiet, spiritual lives..

11:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Still Wonderin' said...
"but a sick story like this would have never happend in any part of brooklyn."

You are so stupid my computer slows down every time you comment.

None of this could happen in Brooklyn because there are 10,000 yokel rabbis running around with their hands out posing as some holier than thou hechsher provider. So no one knows anything and they just eat where they hold and look down on those who eat where they wouldn't.

AND....the problem leads back to a time when the Vaad in Flatbush was challenged and they dealt with the problem in an inneffective way.

And this, you dolt, is exactly why the Vaad needs to be supported. BECAUSE, no matter what your agenda is, things could be 1,000 times worse without the Vaad.

10:46 PM


Rabbbi Eisen, Good Evening!

11:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"He chose to criticize the community based on evidence that was extremely tenuous. I am offended, especially considering how the community defied the predictions of naysayers and respected their Rabbanim en masse. "

He was speaking to his congregation, not the entire world wide web. A membership trying to build a shul does not need the Rabbis speeches to be broadcast to the universe. Hes not a politician who has every speech written for him, and made sure that noone was offended. If you were offended, find another shul, or ignore them.

11:39 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

If you were offended, find another shul, or ignore them.

I can say the same about my blog. I have no more responsibility than a Rav of a congregation. As a matter of fact, considering I am not a Rav, I have far less. As soon as a Rav gets up and speaks before a congregation, his words are fair game.

I don't think anyone tried that argument on Gil at Hurhurim when he criticized the words of some of the keynote speakers at the Agudah convention. They spoke publicly, their words are not some sort of secret minutes of a meeting for members only. The Rav we are discussing here was speaking to a group that was just as public as the Agudah convention was. No one is barred from attending his shul, and he should choose his words accordingly.

11:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And I am well aware that this type of Mussar is an important tool for a Rav to use with his followers."


Actually not, nothing in the negative is good mussar. A Rav has to be an exemplary Role Model for his Kehillah. If he speaks Loshon Horah, then he is allowing his Kehillah to do so. If he speaks in the negative then he setting and example for his Kehilla.

If his words are kind, gentle and encouraging then they will have that kind of impact on his kehillah and will have a domino effect on everyone they encounter.

He should have praised the vast majority for follwing the lead of their Rabbonim even though it was difficult and uncomfortable for them. Even thought the discussions made them feel like they were being pulled between their yetzer horah and yetzer tov.

He didn't need to say more. Anyone who was guilty of spreading loshon horah or saying negative things about Rabbonim would have understood enough from the words left unsaid. Now that is a much better tool used to give mussar than negative reinforcement.

Sherree

11:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to wear the name rabbi
or rav you gotta earn it

so far i am dissapointed in all


rav's and rabbis who were involved in this.

they shouldn't wear a name that doesn't fit them.

11:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to the rav who is so concerend about the kitrug.

all of you have brought it on yourselves

and it's a kitrug that you all didn't keep your promise

11:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh look rabbi! here come all the hundreds of commenters who hate the rabbis! you can tell theyre not the same person because they keep leaving separate comments, right? there must be hundreds of rabbi-bashers in the 5t then, right? not.

11:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

stop bashing our holy rabbis OK?

12:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I don't think anyone tried that argument on Gil at Hurhurim when he criticized the words of some of the keynote speakers at the Agudah convention."

You may have a point, BUT, Gil is not anonymous, and he has credibility. You dont.

12:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you people MUST chill out. what OM is criticising here from her ravs speech is perfectly reasonable. she didnt say anything disrespectful. all she did was point out thatthe rav made a mistake in his assumption of who was doing the commenting.

12:15 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...


You may have a point, BUT, Gil is not anonymous, and he has credibility. You dont.


I never said I did. As a matter of fact, I am always the first to say that an anonymous blogger's words must be taken with a grain of salt. But what does that have to do with whether I am entitled to take issue with something a Rav said that was in error - especially as no one here has taken issue with the substance of my post? If a rav makes a public statement, he must be prepared to have an error in that statement challenged, particularly when that error serves to tar the undeserving members of my community.

12:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was there, and I think this post is fair. I was also surprised that he beleived all the commenters on the blog. None of us kept shopping in gourmet glatt when he told us to stop. So I was also surprised that he was upset.

12:30 AM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

The problem is that rabbis as a group overemphasize the popularity of blogs. Even if the anti-Vaad comments were coming from more than a couple of different individuals, blog commenters are not at all reflective of the community at large and this rav was misguided to think otherwise.

1:16 AM  
Blogger queeniesmom said...

OM - you make a very good point about negativity in general. our kids are loosing the beauty of shabbat and yiddishkit (sp, sorry) as a whole because everything is presented to them in the negative. In the zeal to be "holier" than the next person, the inherent beauty of our beliefs is lost behind this chumra, this Rav's interpretation of ....(fill in the blank). No one is willing to stand up and say wait a minute; instead like a flock of sheep they run out to follow the next ...(fill in the blank). I wonder how many of our grandparents and greatgrandparents are/would be rolling their collective eyes at some of the things that pass for frumkeit nowadays.

Maybe people will wake up and realize this is one of the reasons why we have kids "at risk" and kids going off the derech becuase the constant negativity. If you don't conform, you just hear lots more negative messages.

1:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Having moved out of the 5t, I would guess it's that holy smoky roller. Only he thinks he can divine the future.

7:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doesn't this whole GG affair remind you of the time when that rav in Guyana told everyone to "drink the kool-aid"?

Oh wait... Never mind, I'm confusing cults here...

8:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The use of negative mussar has no place in Yiddishkeit. I am not suggesting that we use the false self esteem approach either. An example of using a positive approach for giving someone appropriate mussar can be found in Shmuel. Dovid Hamelech had sinned (according to someone at his level) and when he was reprimanded by Nosson it was done in a positive way. This approach made Dovid Hamelech realize that he had sinned and resulted in his doing teshuva.

While it is an oversimplication of a major issue, one of the reasons that some people fall off the derech is because they are verbally treated with contempt when they are not performing 100%. I know a yeshiva bochur who was called a goy by his rosh yeshiva because he ordered a coffee (I believe in a stryrofoam shop) from a non kosher diner. The hurt that he experienced put him over the edge and he fell off the derech for a long time. We need to think before we criticize other people's frumkeit. Words can harm so we need to choose the right words when we appropriately dispense mussar.

9:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OrthoMom,

Consistent with the view of a particular popular female blogger, please do not hastily criticize Rabbinic authority. Perhaps this Rov secured files of conclusive IP address evidentiary data to support his venomous attack on the entire community, including Far Rockaway. Perhaps these files have been quarantined along with the GG kashrut violation files, and perhaps you and he have a personality conflict. Perhaps we have leaders for a reason, and when one of those leaders speaks from the podium on Shabbos morning, we should listen and absorbed his message. Perhaps we should pick and choose when to abide by the words of our leaders and when to conclude to defy those words outright. Perhaps we should only do so to the extent following their words will not expose us by name and face in the eyes of the public. Perhaps we are all cowards for continuing to post anonymously (whether or not in support of the Vaad), an act that in of itself defies the words of the community Rabbonim.

And perhaps you and I should both purchase a mirror.

9:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The problem is that rabbis as a group overemphasize the popularity of blogs. Even if the anti-Vaad comments were coming from more than a couple of different individuals, blog commenters are not at all reflective of the community at large and this rav was misguided to think otherwise."

Krum,

The problem is that you underestimate the popularity of OM's blog. This is not your blog; people actually read this one and take it somewhat seriously. The Rabbonim would never have sat at the negotiating table to work out this GG mess in the first instance if blogs like Orthomom's did not exist. Orthomom did an excellent job manipulating this process, and the community has her to thank for facilitating the ultimate rersolution. So, on behalf of the community, I take this opportunity to say "thank you" to Orthomom for giving us an outlet through which to criticize anonymously to further our personal interests.

10:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's completely unfair to criticize a Rav who has such limited knowledge of blogs and has no knowledge of how many "IP addresses" the comments came from. If he even read or just heard about the comments they were horrible and nasty and they were all anonymous. Yes, the community was supportive of the "boycott" but that could have been out of shame of not wanting to be seen there. You did say that GG's order dept had more business than usual. I can see how a Rav would criticize blogging. Because it is anonymouse people get their nasty agressions out that they probably wouldn't publicize to anyone. And the bottom line, total loshon hora.

10:02 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"Perhaps this Rov secured files of conclusive IP address evidentiary data to support his venomous attack on the entire community, including Far Rockaway."

Perhaps you overestimate the power of the Rabbonim. The Vaad / GG detente was broken, without breaking the Vaad, sole because people, by and large listened to their Rabbonim.

And why did they listen to their rabbonim?

Because THEY stood together and offered the entire community a unified front of Orthodox rabbonus.

To criticize the community in the wake of a success that in ANY OTHER COMMUNITY would have ended with the Vaad being transformed into yet another impotent, rubber stamping non-entity, they emerged as an authority that is supported and respected, having succeded in their original goal, all without dividing the community.

That's prety heavy stuff AND a testament to the respect and trust this community has in its rabbonim

AND then, this Rov comes along and bashes the communiy??!!??

I don't know which Rav said this and I hope it isn't someone I feel that I respect.

But criticizing a community of many successful professionals -- who in their day-to-day issue orders more than take them -- for having the audacity to ask questions they are well within their right to ask is counter productive, arrogant, destructive, naive, and just plain stupid.

This Rov is out of line.

10:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, let's quote this Rov more precisely. He called OM, her blogalicious self, as the Kitrig (but it's easier for her to forget that fact so she can attack the Rov "without" a personal agenda.). And as any other Kitrig, needs to be done away with.

10:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps you need to better understand the art of sarcasm.

10:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The problem is that you underestimate the popularity of OM's blog. This is not your blog; people actually read this one and take it somewhat seriously. The Rabbonim would never have sat at the negotiating table to work out this GG mess in the first instance if blogs like Orthomom's did not exist. Orthomom did an excellent job manipulating this process, and the community has her to thank for facilitating the ultimate rersolution. So, on behalf of the community, I take this opportunity to say "thank you" to Orthomom for giving us an outlet through which to criticize anonymously to further our personal interests"



I can tell you as an insider, that OM blog did help resolve this situation.. the vaad rabbonim read and got nervous about all the talk about RICO, sherman anti-trust violation, IRS, Slander lawsuits, etc.. When it was discovered that none of the rabbi or vaad had insurance much like directors of large companies get to insulate them from lawsuits, they got a little panicky,, snitow told them not to worry, due to his cockiness, but the vaad rabbonim were nervous......and rightly so,,,, GG could have and should have sued the vaad.. they chose not to and try to settle this fiasco quietly.. the publicity brought to this area by OM's blog went a lot further than was originally thought.. so, OM the bolenders should be thanking you and the vaad should be condemning your site. The rabbi's really dont want the whole world to know what they did----your site make their actions known throughout the whole world..

10:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Actually, let's quote this Rov more precisely. He called OM, her blogalicious self, as the Kitrig (but it's easier for her to forget that fact so she can attack the Rov "without" a personal agenda.). And as any other Kitrig, needs to be done away with. "

That's a lie and you know it. he referred to to the anonymous comments as a kitrig.

I think everyone has to chill out. I was there, I was annoyed too. Stop being so defensive about the Rav under discussion. If he knows about blogs then he knows his words could end up on one.

If you want this to go away stop drawing attentyion to yourselves and the shul by commenting so defensively.

10:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you, 10:19am. I agree - this blog represents the greatest Rabbinic defiance of all.

Great job, (Anti)Orthomom!

10:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" It's completely unfair to criticize a Rav who has such limited knowledge of blogs and has no knowledge of how many "IP addresses" the comments came from. If he even read or just heard about the comments they were horrible and nasty and they were all anonymous."

you cant criticize a community because a tiny minority if the community misbehaves. if the rabbi sees a woman in pants on the street would he get up and trash his shul for teh communitys lack of tznius?

"Yes, the community was supportive of the "boycott" but that could have been out of shame of not wanting to be seen there. You did say that GG's order dept had more business than usual."

did you ever hear of "mitoch lo lishma ba lishma?" if the community was supportive of the boycott they were supportive of the boycott. they were supportive enough to bring GG to the negotiation table. so Om has a valid point that praise, not criticism is in order here.

10:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I myself along with a group of greater than 10 of us continued to shop at GG while this was going on. We have no faith in the VAAD and will never give a penny to their cause...if our shul gives money to them we will speak out as a whole. Everyone non kosher person in the area who is aware of it believe this is extortion and this is surely no kiddush hashem rather another embarrasment to this messed up community. Little by little as more people from brooklyn move in, the VAAD will be removed from their ivory tower.

10:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"so, OM the bolenders should be thanking you and the vaad should be condemning your site. "

Ridiculous. I spoke to a Vaad rav who gave this blog praise for the support it showed the vaad. the pro-GG anti-Vaad spin you put on it cant change that.

10:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Vaad behaved badly and their actions will only directly and indirectly lead to more work with teens for Sherree. While all of us continue to sit behind our computer, that is. Get off your butts and go out and make a difference - enough with this BS.

10:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The problem is that you underestimate the popularity of OM's blog. This is not your blog; people actually read this one and take it somewhat seriously. The Rabbonim would never have sat at the negotiating table to work out this GG mess in the first instance if blogs like Orthomom's did not exist."

I dont think people take this blog seriously. They come here for one reason. This is the source of the latest gossip . Where else can you hear how Rabbi Eisen was responsible for non kosher food at Nathans. Or all sort of theories on why the Rabbis conspired against GG. Look at how many comments there are on posts that could lead to Lashon Hora compared to the posts that wont.

Wow, you give her so much credit, maybe if Orthomom wrote about Trump and Rosie, they will get together and make up.

There are alot of things that Rabbis and Yeshivas can improve. But to blame the kids at risk and other problems on the negativity at yeshivas is overstating things. I could say the overemphasis on luxury and material items could be the reason. Perhaps its also the fact that parents are very quick to criticize Yeshivas and Rabbis even in front of their children. Maybe its the fact that parents are leading lives of which children see hypocracy from what they are taught in Yeshiva.

Finally, so what if it wasnt one of the finer speeches the Rabbi has ever given. Leave him alone. Its not that big a deal. It may not have been a place for it. But he went after blogs, because he was going after Lashon Hora. I cant say hes wrong about that.

10:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's amazing how people claim to speak to Vaad Rabbonim privately, publish their views on this blog, yet continue to maintain that the Vaad is UNIFIED on this issue?

Have you ever heard of POLITICS? This Vaad is FAR from unified on ANY issue, signatures on the letter notwithstanding. Using the "unified Vaad" argument only serves to prove that no other legitimate argument exists to support the Vaad. Pathetic. Stick to the merits and stop with the unification argument - maybe then you'll have an ounce of credibility. Maybe.

10:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that the good rabbi should realize that this is the FIVE TOWNS not Anatavka or Chelm.There are many talmidei chachomim and educated business men and professionals.The rabbis should treat them as such.Not as ignorant shtel yidden.

11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have we become like Catholics and assume that our leaders are infallible like the Pope? Disagreement when done in a respectful manner helps us arrive at the truth. We shouldn't be like robots and follow our leaders "just because they said so." We should question in a respectful manner in order to understand.

11:10 AM  
Anonymous AnoMan said...

I don't understand why the Vaad is getting a pass, or why you are attempting to minimize their crime by saying only a few of your readers critcized them.

Their behavior was horrible and no one should be shy about saying this.

11:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mark bolander

it's time for you to stop blogging already.

11:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
mark bolander

it's time for you to stop blogging already.

11:23 AM


why do you assume that all anti-vaad sentiment is from a bolender (or mark,in particular)? dont you think the rest of us can feel let down by our rabbonim ? I know many of the so called anonymous bloggers and they most certainly, are not part of the bolender family... some of us know that the vaad fell short of our expections; how we deal with this is still up in the air. Malkie

11:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Take a minute to study the writing styles of the commentators. There are many thought-out, sensible comments that respectfully question the Vaad and its actions - those are NOT Bollender comments.

But if it gives you comfort to once again shift blame to the Bollenders without any legitimate basis whatsoever (other than a self-proclaimed non-credible blogger who wants us to believe her IP address information), go right ahead - whatever floats your boat.

Respectfully,

Not a Bollender.
Not Avi Goldstein.
Not a GG shopper before or after Vaad ruling.
Not Orthodad.
Not Happy with the Vaad.

12:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"(other than a self-proclaimed non-credible blogger who wants us to believe her IP address information),"

of course i believe that a blogger sees the IPs of her commenters. whether shes credible or not, that part is pretty foregone.

12:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

whatever......... bla...bla....bla.....bla......bla.......

12:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We don't need OM's credibility to know that a blogger can view IP addresses. We can set up our own blog to concusively reach that point. Obviously, I was referring to her credibility to accurately convey facts to her readers.

Remember, people, the same way Orthomom drops "little white lies" every so often to distract the public from positively ideifying her, she is also very capable of (white) lying about other matters. Don't be fooled by the "Ortho" or the "Mom" in her name. She has proven on many occassions to be severely lacking in both areas.

Respectfully,

Not a Bollender.
Not Avi Goldstein.
Not Sherree Belsky
Not a GG shopper before or after Vaad ruling.
Not Orthodad.
Not Happy with the Vaad.

12:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

bla..bla...bla...bla...bla...

12:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Talmid Chochom blogger Gil Student on whether a blogger can criticize a public figure such as a Rav as Om has done here:

yes

and yes.

1:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RABBI Gil Student, actually.

1:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well stated, Orthmom. The Talibanization of orthodoxy in our community is becoming truly terrifying. This has nothing to do with halacha, this has to do with the taste of raw power by various rabbis.

1:37 PM  
Anonymous The Hand said...

"I can tell you as an insider, that OM blog did help resolve this situation.. the vaad rabbonim read and got nervous about all the talk about RICO, sherman anti-trust violation, IRS, Slander lawsuits, etc.. When it was discovered that none of the rabbi or vaad had insurance much like directors of large companies get to insulate them from lawsuits, they got a little panicky,, snitow told them not to worry, due to his cockiness, but the vaad rabbonim were nervous......and rightly so,,,, GG could have and should have sued the vaad.. they chose not to and try to settle this fiasco quietly.. the publicity brought to this area by OM's blog went a lot further than was originally thought.. so, OM the bolenders should be thanking you and the vaad should be condemning your site. The rabbi's really dont want the whole world to know what they did----your site make their actions known throughout the whole world.."

Hey, I'm an outsider so let me ask two silly quesions:

1) What would have happened w/o our hero orthomom?

2) Since she recently posted that the guys who bought the store had their eyes on it before this whole mess, is it possible that they were involved in creating the mess? i.e. Has the wrongdoing been absolutely established?

1:59 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...


1) What would have happened w/o our hero orthomom?


Hey, I never said I was a hero.

2) Since she recently posted that the guys who bought the store had their eyes on it before this whole mess, is it possible that they were involved in creating the mess? i.e. Has the wrongdoing been absolutely established?

I'm not sure where I posted that. Was it in one of the articles?

3:10 PM  
Anonymous The Hand said...

"1) What would have happened w/o our hero orthomom?

Hey, I never said I was a hero."

Sorry -- I was asking sincerely. The guy sounded like it would have worked out differently and as an outsider, I didn't know what he meant. I haven't followed all the detail of this from the beginning.

"I'm not sure where I posted that. Was it in one of the articles?"

Yes, but don't remember which. A recent one.

3:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Have we become like Catholics and assume that our leaders are infallible like the Pope? Disagreement when done in a respectful manner helps us arrive at the truth. We shouldn't be like robots and follow our leaders "just because they said so." We should question in a respectful manner in order to understand. "

I absolutely think it's OK question in a respectful manner in order to understand. And I would expect that if people privately went to their Rabbis with specific questions, that those questions be answered in good faith.
Anonymous commenting is not that.

4:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This only proves that the local Rabbis (Rabonim etc) are so totally out of touch with the reality of their olam. I suggest that they take some community education classes, to learn that by and large the locals are good people.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since she recently posted that the guys who bought the store had their eyes on it before this whole mess, is it possible that they were involved in creating the mess? i.e. Has the wrongdoing been absolutely established?


The repoted sales price world seem to blie that rumour. If they were lloking for a fire sale they sure are rumored to be paying top dollar.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This whole thing with GG -It's over. Done. Finished. Complete. Gamar. Water under the bridge. Get over it. There are other things to speak about and write about and blog about.

7:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm confused, OM are you for or against girls being tznius?

The hot chani post was pretty neg on your part.

9:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He didn't need to say more. Anyone who was guilty of spreading loshon horah or saying negative things about Rabbonim would have understood enough from the words left unsaid. Now that is a much better tool used to give mussar than negative reinforcement.

Sherree

11:53 PM

so much for drug induced ADHD GG comments

9:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I never went to GG-except for a couple of times during the controversy-now that the Vaad is back I can go safely back to Brach's.
Anyone who believes that the Rabbis were supported because of belief in their justice is deluding themselves-one who is not a party to the dispute does not want to face personal retribution for not following the Vaad.
A secret ballot on this side of the 5T's would show overwhelming disgust on all who were part of this sordid affair.

8:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This whole thing with GG -It's over. Done. Finished. Complete. Gamar. Water under the bridge. Get over it. There are other things to speak about and write about and blog about.

7:17 PM


gg is done-but we still have the same Rabbinical political establishment that lost along with everyone else-see YIdwithlid for balanced description of the trtagedy.

8:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear OM,

Just curious, why haven't you posted the letter returning the VAAd hechsher back to "Gourmet Glatt the same way you posted the letter removing the hechsher"? Is it because ALL the Rabbonim didn't sign it like the original nasty deed?

1:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The text of the letter was posted.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

where???

6:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i dont know if this tznius thing is a healthy trend for the kids. we have developed a neutered set of girls, boys who have no social skills with the opposite sex, and a big singles crisis. tznius is a cultural relic of the middle ages and isn't essential to Judaism. now it's mostly about men keeping women under their thumb, and it does harm to the community.

8:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

where??

see comments OM's posting "More on GG Buyer". at 11:26am. Very short letter.

8:11 AM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

" tznius is a cultural relic of the middle ages and isn't essential to Judaism. now it's mostly about men keeping women under their thumb, and it does harm to the community. "

Kol Kevudah bas melech penima, Mimishbitzos Zahav Levushah(Psalms 45:14)

It seems that at least someone thought that tznius was important - or is Tehillim a mere cultural relic too?

10:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see this fixation on negative reinforcement in Orthodoxy in the way my daughter's school emphasizes Tzniut,
.......................
if thats the case than why call yourself ORTHOMOM

REFOMOM suits you better.

6:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see this fixation on negative reinforcement in Orthodoxy in the way my daughter's school emphasizes Tzniut,
.......................
if thats the case than why call yourself ORTHOMOM

REFOMOM suits you better.

6:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that the good rabbi should realize that this is the FIVE TOWNS not Anatavka or Chelm.There are many talmidei chachomim and educated business men and professionals.The rabbis should treat them as such.Not as ignorant shtel yidden.

Point taken, but next time if you'd rather not sound like a shtetl yid yourself, better make that "business men and WOMEN" lest you sound like you hail from Chelm. After all, the blog you chose to read and comment on is written by one such professional WOMAN!

7:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In my humble opinion there is a lack of RESPECT all the way around. RESPECT is a given and it should be reciprocated. It is not reserved for only one particular group of people or Yiddin alone. It is meant for EVERYONE, young and old, although some might deserve a higher level according to what madreiga they hold. However, RESPECT in and of itself is appropriate to give and to show to everyone. Whether you are speaking to adults or children, whether you are speaking to one person, one kehilah, or an entire community.

RESPECT us as people, RESPECT us as JEWS, RESPECT us as LEARNED JEWS, RESPECT us as EDUCATED PEOPLE, RESPECT us as CHESSEDIK well meaning and well caring people. Don't assume that you know what we are thinking and feeling. Don't assume you know what we are doing and what we will do, and don't talk down to us, any of us. Treat us with the same RESPECT you would expect us to treat you. And that goes for everyone across the board.

8:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amen to 8:35 !!

10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes Respect the community, lets all respectfully tell Rabbi Eisen to pack his bags and get the h-ll out of town.

2:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

once again, RYE sought to undermine the Vaad by not having a mashgiach at GG when the teudah was in the window.. How typical of him....perhaps his real goal is to destroy the vaad by making them look like fools, then putting himself as the new and individual supervison of the five towns. KING of supervision. Vaad - please wake up and see what this snake is up to!!

8:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I think that the good rabbi should realize that this is the FIVE TOWNS not Anatavka or Chelm.There are many talmidei chachomim and educated business men and professionals.The rabbis should treat them as such.Not as ignorant shtel yidden."

SORRY,Of course the women in our community are of the highest level and deserve to be treated with as much respect as the men.

9:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a great believer of "if you give a person enough rope to hang himself with, eventually he will". Let's all sit back and watch what happens.

Sherree

1:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok, I am concerned about Rabbi Pincus because he is an innocent bystander as much as Rabbi Chait was. The GG issue is over and should be put to rest but the VAAD issue isn't. There are many concerns that arose here and should be addressed before another disaster happens. Point in quesion. If Savitsky claims that that the VAAd should be funded by the community, and why he needs more than the $100,000 that the establishments already generate I don't personally understand, since the mashgichim generate their own salaries vis a vis the establishments they work for, then he has an obligation to this community to answer the questions we have and explain how exactly the VAAD is set up and run.

Let me explain something in regard to other institutions who claim to be community based and community related. There was a local Yeshiva that closed recently who "claimed" to be a community yeshiva as all the others do. They kept coming back to the community for finacial and moral support. Yet when I had to go in and advocate for a local child there was no one to talk to. The administration was so closed minded and had absolutely no respect for any of the Rabbonim here in the community. They ran they Yeshiva as they felt and answered to no one. There were no checks and balances set forth and they were extremely difficutl to make headway with. It was only at the point that I threatened to write an article in the 5 towns paper, that they finally backed off from the child. Again, when I asked for assistance from local Rabbonim, I was told that the administration of this school did not RESPECT the authority of any of the community Rabbonim. This came from a local RAV in the community the school claimed to be part of. They of course are not the only ones to say they are a community school and then proceed to reject the community children for whatever reasons they can come up with.

My point being, it is really chutzpadik to claim to be a community organization, demanding community funds, chizuk and support yet telling the community to mind there own business when it comes to imparting information or explaining how the organization is set up and run. If it is a regular business and its transactions are between their clients/customers, vis as vis the stores who hire them and themselves, then they are correct. It is not our concern. However, when they reach into our pockets and demand that we pay "dues and donations" to this same organization, then we have a right and an obligation to check them out and make sure that everything is run as proper and as above board as any tzedaka or shul organization in the neighborhood.

I am not an accountant or lawyer, but I have over 25 years of experience as an office manager and bookkeeper, as well as working in yeshivas, an accounting firm and setting up my own organization. Most of the members of my family are CPA's and many are deeply involved in chessed. You just can't have it both ways. I would ask that some of the professionals in this community, CPA's and Lawyers, step up to the plate and form a committee to check into this. I would be happy to serve on the committee as well, but I am deeply rooted into helping children, and cannot organize and head such a committee. The committee should hold an open forum for the community to gather all the questions they have and then meet with the President of the VAAD, Mr. Steve Savitzky to address these issues. We cannot have a VAAD that should be held up to the highest standards of Halacha and Kashrus, demanding that we all follow the highest standards of Halacha, yet portray to the community that they are not following the Laws of the Land.

In addition, it is a conflict of interest to have the stores pay the mashgichim directly. In this particular incident with GG and this can happen again in any store, the Rabbonim might have felt that a mashgiach who is paid by the owner of the store might have loyalty to that person. In that case would he really be capable of giving truthful and honest "eidus", eyewitness testimony. If a mashgiach cannot be trusted to give "eidus", how can we trust him to uphold kashrus? If he is not honest in one area how can we expect him to be honest in another. The mashgichim can have only one loyalty and that is to the VAAD, therefore in my humble opinion, they should be getting paid directly from the VAAD, so there is no chance of conflict of interest and they have no feelings of loyalty to their employers, the store owners, because then they would truly have only one employer and that would be the VAAD.

I am not looking to start a new conflict here. I am looking to settle a situation that has come to light. We cannot bury it under the rug and it has nothing to do with RYE, that is a totally different issue that needs to be addressed and should be addressed privately and personally to each RAV by any individual that has an opinion on the subject. However, if the Five Towns wishes to uphold the standards of community, continuity, Kashrus and achdus. We should really make sure that the VAAD lives up to OUR standards.

Sherree

1:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did anyone read Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum's piece "The Only Solution" on Kosher unkosher blog? Its a riot.

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