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Monday, February 19, 2007

Women At the Front of The Bus - With Cans of Mace?

Gil has a great post up about the battle in Israel over women sitting at the back of the bus. It's so good I'm reposting the whole thing:
Most readers have probably heard about the woman in Jerusalem who was beaten because she refused to move to the back of the bus (link). In short, there is a growing trend of buses with separate seating, where men sit in the front and women in the back. While I do not believe that this is required by Jewish law, others can disagree and there is certainly room for local custom in this regard. As a woman I know tells me, some women prefer not to sit next to men so this practice suits them well. And it makes sense that women should be in the back of the bus rather than the front, so that men can't stare at them. In my experience, the back of the bus is also the most comfortable and the least crowded.

The problem with the arrangement in Israel is simply that the community there is incapable of controlling its hooligans. This should come as no surprise and has been a growing problem for decades. How widespread is this problem? I don't know. But as long as it exists, women have to be wary. Women and men can be and have been beaten for not being "frum" enough in certain situations.

Shira Leibowitz Schmidt (of Cross Currents) wrote an Op-Ed for JTA in defense of this separate seating, claiming that this seating arrangement empowers women (link). I often sympathize with the plight of apologists (a term that I do not use in a derogatory fashion), who sometimes find themselves defending practices that they find offensive in the name of the greater communal good. Regarding this case, I almost sympathized with Schmidt. But when she claimed that this practice empowers women, she lost me.

Separate seating does not empower women. It doesn't have to weaken them either, if the community is sufficiently responsible. Israeli society is definitely not sufficiently responsible, including (or especially) the Charedi community. I don't claim that women are routinely beaten or humiliated on buses, but anyone who has been in Israel for more than 25 seconds recognizes that politeness... I can't continue this sentence because it is too painful. But you know what I mean.

Separate seating does not empower women. A can of mace and a scream of "Rape! Call the police!" empowers women, and that is what I would recommend for any woman riding the buses in Jerusalem who is not willing to change her seat on demand.
Well done, Gil.

I tend to agree. I am perfectly comfortable with - even supportive of - women and men in certain communities choosing to sit separately as a matter of comfort. But when actual violence is threatened and - in some cases actually carried out - to achieve that end, I become a lot less interested in championing that cause.

(via)

49 Comments:

Blogger YMedad said...

Er, I would go for something like "attempted assault and battery" but there's nothing like a small digital camera for presenting evidence and also eventually uploading a picture to a blog, like that of OrthoMom or even mine.

10:08 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

I wonder how the hereidi community would respond to women distributing cans of mace to the women and young girls in their midst?

11:12 AM  
Blogger yingerman said...

I somehow think this whole issue is getting way outta hand.
The Woman-who-insisted-on-her-seat-in-the-front-the-bus in question should not be a role model for our kids.
Put her pic up near Sara Shnirer, in schools?
I wouldn't use her as a poster of a godol.
Why is there such a fuss, yes the men who attacked her are wrong she should have em arrested.
I wonder why the TV crew, convieniently waiting at the next stop, are very rarely mentioned.

12:06 PM  
Anonymous Yaakov W. said...

This is the classic case of "two wrongs don't make a right"

While the Man who beat her was certainly being barbaric one has to realize that the woman was quite out of line herself. The custom in the area is to do one way and it is accepted by virtually everyone. She should not be an activist. It was already shown that this is not racist or sexest in any way it is just what they feel is religiously right. If the custom of the place is to take of your shoes, you take of your shoes!

Judaism does not allow for violence when one reacts this way they are essentially acting just like our Neturei Karta friends who ruin any sense of freedom of their opinion or religious belief based on the fact that they go against their own religion by using unacceptable methods to achieve their goal.

It should be stated and clearly that this isn't a story of anything but a woman being an jerk and a guy reacting like an idiot. End of story.

12:38 PM  
Anonymous chaim said...

this crazy extremesim knows no bounds in israel,and has to be stopped for their own good,last yom tov succos,was in jerusalem,and walkig with my wife in meah shearim,a guard came over and pointed to us,sorry you cant walk here together,it is men on one side of street and women on other side,
this is absolute talibanism,and should not be tolerated,
and for the record i am chareidi,but this has nothing to do with yidishkeit,but everything with hooliganism

1:50 PM  
Anonymous Yaakov W. said...

Chaim, while this is one of the more extreme examples and also one of the hardest to see in their point of view, we should still try.

They are spiritually on a much higher level than us and we have a lot to learn from their devotion to their religion and simple way of life. We should also try to understand what it must feel like to live in a purposefully secluded and quiet "shtetl" only to have it become an international tourist attraction due to its uniqueness. When they have women of all backgrounds and cultures often dressed in provocative clothing waling through their narrow streets, peeking into their windows, and hanging out, it is more than just a nuisance to their daily lives.

Throughout the year they bare with it and attempt to avoid the main streets as much as possible but when it comes to Yomim Tovim (especially sukkos which is the big tourist holiday) it often reaches extreme levels. There are times during sukkos (usually at night for simchos beis hashoeva) that the streets are literally packed and overflowing to the point that if a man was attempting to be careful not to even casually bump into a woman he would not be able to. They therefore have security officers directing traffic and setting designated sides of the street for men and for woman.

It is very easy to judge but I think that we should attempt to understand. They are holy people and these very streets are home to the likes of R' Elyashiv and the Mirrer Yeshiva. It is truly a spiritual place that deserves our respect.

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Anon-o-mouse said...

Wow, it's mind boggling how many people can justify the physical assault of a woman.

Who's asking anyone to put up a pic of Mrs. Shear next to Sara Snirer? (who was probably equally derided in her time if not more, how ironic).

All any of us (the larger and probably saner part of the Jewish community) want is for the Israeli charedi community to take some responsibility for the violent elements in their community. (as exhibited by the gay parade riots, arson and bleach spraying of "non tzniusdik shops and people, etc.)

It's shocking how this is pretty much an impossible request. Take some freaking responsibility!

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The issue is NOT the segregated bus line. The issue is the method of enforcement. The cultural norms of those neighborhoods are such there are separation of the sexes, those areas are not the 5 towns. However, what can be agreed upon is when someone violates those norms accidentally they can be politely informed of the local custom, & even when they willingly and provocatively violate them (assuming they are religious and presumably should understand the propriety of such a custom, Secular people have no concept of such customs and should always be regarded as unwilling violators) someone who is offended can do no more than protest verbally, without threats. The violation is not so egregious to warrant physical intervention. This is not Pinchos & Zimri when you can say Kanoim poigim bah. At most you can look at the offender as an arrogant idiot. I listened to Naomi Ragan's report on NPR and that’s exactly what she sounds like. She also seems to think of herself as a champion of women’s rights, but my experience has been that most Charedi women are just as uncomfortable at sitting next to unrelated men as Charedi men are uncomfortable sitting next to unrelated women.

3:51 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

Jerusalem belongs to all Jews. Separate seating on buses is not halachically required. Neither are separate sides of streets. We are talking about Orthodox people being harassed or assaulted because they didn't follow a chumrah that is accepted by a very small minority of Orthodox communities. That is not kedushah. There is no excuse.

4:18 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

Jerusalem belongs to all Jews. Separate seating on buses is not halachically required. Neither are separate sides of streets. We are talking about Orthodox people being harassed or assaulted because they didn't follow a chumrah that is accepted by a very small minority of Orthodox communities. That is not kedushah. There is no excuse.

4:18 PM  
Anonymous charliehall said...

Jerusalem belongs to all Jews. Separate seating on buses is not halachically required. Neither are separate sides of streets. We are talking about Orthodox people being harassed or assaulted because they didn't follow a chumrah that is accepted by a very small minority of Orthodox communities. That is not kedushah. There is no excuse.

4:19 PM  
Blogger YMedad said...

What TV crew?

4:48 PM  
Anonymous Yaakov W. said...

anon-o-mouse,

what do you mean take responsibility?

he is an idiot, that was made clear, but it isn't prevalent, it is just you women's rights activist losers who think that every incident where some bozo acts like an animal is cause for drastic reform in a community. there is no need to blow this up and turn it into a news story unless you are anti-frum and looking for something to mock.

and Charlie,
the separate sides of the streets was (in my opinion) adequately explained in my earlier post, if you disagree then please explain why. Also, separate seating on a bus is actually quite smart especially if you are a G-d fearing jew who cares about his neshoma and shmiras eiynayim. The only time that I feel slightly badly about the system is when the back of the bus is packed and there are women standing and there is a seat available in the front. The women don't complain at all nor do they seem to mind but it breaks my heart to see little girls having to stand on a bus ride due to lack of seating. The same is often true vice versa.

7:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The last time I checked, beating anyone and even touching a woman is a greater sin than mixed seating. How does it happen that the man is not chastized for that?

7:50 PM  
Anonymous deemer said...

"but my experience has been that most Charedi women are just as uncomfortable at sitting next to unrelated men as Charedi men are uncomfortable sitting next to unrelated women"

Did you take a poll? Because I, as a very orthodox woman, could care less. It's a public bus, for crying out loud.

God made men and women together, on the same planet. If he wanted us to be that segregated, I believe He would have created life on the moon and a way to get there. In the meantime, stop apologizing for fanaticism. Soon you'll be banning kites and women's education.

8:23 PM  
Blogger yonatan said...

The woman was not a jerk, rather a frum grandmother visiting family in Har Nof that found a seat that she found comfortable.
She was dressed tzniusly.
She did not seat down next to a man.
She rode that bus for an entire week seating in this seat.
She was observing halacha properly.
This is not minhag hamakoem, since many frum married couples sit together on this busline going to the Kosel. Lets stop blaming the victim and try to educate the "ADULTS WHO ARE A RISK".

8:43 PM  
Anonymous Yaakov W. said...

"The last time I checked, beating anyone and even touching a woman is a greater sin than mixed seating. How does it happen that the man is not chastized for that?"

Who said he wasn't chastised?

He was wrong, period, very very wrong.

She was also wrong (to a lesser extent, but still wrong)

Deemer: I am assuming you are American, correct? Then you don't count for the poll. Israeli women who have Israeli mentality feel that way and I know it for a fact (at least Yerushalayim women). There is a large demand by men and women for more "Mehadrin" buses.

Why is everyone going so crazy over this incident? It is just an incident. It is not prevalent at all, as a matter of fact this is the first such case that I have heard of like this, calm down. The lady can bring the guy to a din torah and they will surely reprimand him. I think the reaction by some people here on this blog reflects much deeper religious issues that they should work out.

11:07 PM  
Anonymous Emily said...

Yaakov W.- You say she did something wrong, I'm not sure I understand what that was. She sat in a seat that both secular law and halacha allowed her to sit in, and refused to move when asked to. If the man didn't want to sit next to a woman, the onus was on him to find another seat. If I recall, the story said there were plenty of empty seats he could have chosen. There was no need for him to sit in her seat to avoid sitting next to a woman, so she wasn't even keeping him from being as strict as he wanted about sitting next to an unrelated woman. (Although I personally have my doubts about how committed he could have been to real observance since his response to not being allowed to sit in his seat of choice was to spit on and then beat up the woman, surely that is far more damaging to his neshoma than sitting in a different seat for the length of a bus ride.)
And people are making a bit deal about this because if we don't then it becomes to easy to say that we didn't care about this, so why do we care about the next time, when a woman is sent to the hospital because of the beating she received for refusing to stay in the place someone else feels she ought? You have to draw the line somewhere, and I think everyone can agree that physical violence is over any line.

11:48 PM  
Anonymous Yaakov W. said...

Emily,

you should really first read the previous posts to understand what she did wrong.

while I can't say that what she did was wrong on a secular or halachic basis I also can't say they she was right in either of them. she falls in what I would call a gray area for both.

Secular - the bus is an official Eged Mehadrin bus. this means it is created with separate seating as a feature. Many people ride these buses exclusively with a large personal convenience price tag. So according to Israeli law she was going against policy, I don't know if you can call it illegal though.

Halacha - many of the same reasons make this halachicly unacceptable as well. since this bus is advertised as a mehadrin bus her refusal to abide is denying people paying for it the service that they payed for. she also is causing a chilul hashem by going against these rules. Again, I don't know if she did any Aveirah d'oreisa but she certainly wasn't making Hashem proud.

1:30 AM  
Blogger Abbi said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2:18 AM  
Anonymous Anon-o-mouse said...

Yaakov

"I am assuming you are American, correct? Then you don't count for the poll."

Are you for real? I'm an Orthodox American Jew who made Aliya six years ago. I pay half of my income every year in taxes so I MOST CERTAINLY COUNT!!

And I can tell you loud and clear that I don't feel more comfortable sitting in the back of the bus. Maybe in your weird charedi fantasy land, that flies, but not in the real world.

"just you women's rights activist losers"

Do you discuss parsha with your children and daven with that mouth? Lovely example of lashon nekiya. I'll have to write that one down.

What do I mean by take responsibility? If you can't see the prevalence of violent sickness in the charedi community and the need for the charedi leadership to actually do something about instead of whining "But we caaan't control them" (wierd, you seem to be able to control all other aspects of their lives) then I really can't help you.

(I'll repeat my other two examples of violence, since you conveniently ignored them the first time: the gay parade riots where CHAREDI men trashed numerous neighborhoods setting huge fires, destroying public property, blocking streets etc AND the new "chumra" of setting fires to stores selling untznius clothing and spraying women wearing such clothing with bleach)

Israeli charedim are completely out of control and I think these incidents are going to be the tip of the iceberg unless the leadership doesn't do something promptly.

But of course, it's always easier to blame feminist losers instead of actually doing a cheshbon hanefesh and teshuva. Oh, right, teshuva is only for feminist losers. Can you quote which part of Hilchot Teshuva exempts charedim from actually doing teshuva? That seems to be the tenor of the charedi apologist set.

Once again: Charedim are welcome to take on as many chumras as they want. THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO FORCE THEM ON THE REST OF THE POPULATION!

2:20 AM  
Anonymous Yaakov W. said...

""just you women's rights activist losers"

Do you discuss parsha with your children and daven with that mouth? Lovely example of lashon nekiya. I'll have to write that one down."

I apologize. I got excited, that was wrong. I hope you forgive me.

I feel as if people take this stuff to ridiculous levels. Women are different then men, they are not above or below them, they just have very different roles in life. I can't stand when people try to infer that Chareidi people don't treat women with respect.

"Once again: Charedim are welcome to take on as many chumras as they want. THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO FORCE THEM ON THE REST OF THE POPULATION!"

Don't "conveniently forget" my comments either. The bus situation has been clearly explained and is not a case of anyone forcing any chumras on anyone, it is merely an optional Mehadrin bus and one should follow the rules when riding one.

I don't have any first hand info on the two other cases you mentioned. I am first hearing of the bleaching thing now. It is sad when I hear of people who don't use their heads and act for the sake of Yiddishkeit only to embarrass it. This is not a common thing but sad nonetheless. It gives excuses for people to avoid the beauty and responsibility to live life as a true orthodox jew.

3:42 AM  
Blogger BJ said...

Yaakov W. said
"The bus situation has been clearly explained and is not a case of anyone forcing any chumras on anyone, it is merely an optional Mehadrin bus and one should follow the rules when riding one."

If you read the details of the incident, all the various accounts say that the bus was not officially mehadrin.

Having read all the blog entries and comments (or at least as many as I could find with the help of Google), I'd say that (if it were up to me....), I'd assign most of the blame for the incident to the men involved (what part of ' no, thanks, I think I'll stay here - why don't you use one of the empty seats you walked past?' didn't they undersatnd?) left over for Egged's half-hearted policy, based on the reported lack of signs about which buses have been designated mehadrin and which ones haven't been so designated.

7:05 AM  
Anonymous Emily said...

Yaakov- I did read your previous posts before posting my comment, but since you asked me to go through them again, I guess I can do that.
"one has to realize that the woman was quite out of line herself. The custom in the area is to do one way and it is accepted by virtually everyone."
No, this is not the custom of the area. This was not a mehadrin line, so who ever wants to can sit wherever they want to. Sorry, that doesn't hold water. It may have been the custom of the men on the bus, but since it isn't their bus, their rules don't hold for everyone. Egged, the bus owner, said that on that line, anyone can sit wherever they want, and so you can't say that it's disrespectful to do so. However, I am guessing that Egged has a rule against beating up other riders.
"Judaism does not allow for violence when one reacts this way they are essentially acting just like our Neturei Karta friends who ruin any sense of freedom of their opinion or religious belief.”

I completely agree, you’re right. Violence to make other people adhere to your religious standards is completely out of line. When he wanted to make her adhere to his standard of women in the back of the bus, rather than being violent he should have stood, or sat in any one of the number of empty seats that he walked past.
Oh, wait, do you think SHE was the one to start using violence? Ooops. I didn’t realize that sitting in the front of the bus (where we have established it was acceptable for her to sit) was considered violent. Or maybe it turned violent when she refused to be put in her place by the man who wanted her seat? Or was is that she started using violence when she was attacked, and started to defend herself? Are you honestly arguing that she caused the problem when she started to defend herself? Surely this is a mistake on my part, and please explain where I’m wrong, since I can’t honestly believe that any reasonable or good person, much less a religious Jew would be suggesting that women just take a beating and learn to do better next time.

“separate seating on a bus is actually quite smart especially if you are a G-d fearing jew who cares about his neshoma and shmiras eiynayim.”

Ok, fine, they can have separate seating if they want it, ON MEHADRIN LINES. This was not one, so they had no ground to ask her to move. They had not even started the petition process to have that line made mehadrin, so it couldn’t have been too important to them. Also, again, if he cared that much about his neshoma, wouldn’t that have stopped him from touching a woman, especially to beat her up? Perhaps he cared more about the appearance of being extremely frum than he did about actually BEING observant.

Again, I don’t see anything here that the woman did wrong. She was not forcing him to sit next to her, he had the choice of any empty seat, and could have sat where he wasn’t next to a woman without problem or issue. He chose not to, and decided he wanted to sit in her seat and would do anything to get it. Why did he need to be in her specific seat? There is no halacha, or even chumra that I know of that would require you to sit in the same bus seat each day. She was not in any way forcing him to break his standards, so what did she do wrong?

9:32 AM  
Anonymous Yaakov W. said...

This is going around in circles so I will stop trying to explain my view on why she was wrong as well.

I just want to clarify, in response to:
"I completely agree, you’re right. Violence to make other people adhere to your religious standards is completely out of line. When he wanted to make her adhere to his standard of women in the back of the bus, rather than being violent he should have stood, or sat in any one of the number of empty seats that he walked past.
Oh, wait, do you think SHE was the one to start using violence? Ooops. I didn’t realize that sitting in the front of the bus (where we have established it was acceptable for her to sit) was considered violent. Or maybe it turned violent when she refused to be put in her place by the man who wanted her seat? Or was is that she started using violence when she was attacked, and started to defend herself? Are you honestly arguing that she caused the problem when she started to defend herself? Surely this is a mistake on my part, and please explain where I’m wrong, since I can’t honestly believe that any reasonable or good person, much less a religious Jew would be suggesting that women just take a beating and learn to do better next time."

You misunderstood me, I was saying that he was very wrong for using violence and that removes all his validity and any shield of religious belief. I was not saying or inferring that the guilt of violence had anything to do with her. She did nothing wrong in that aspect. She was not the violent one.

1:54 PM  
Blogger RR said...

How about putting cameras on the buses? Forget it, the hooligans would probably smash them in before attacking the women.

To the guy who defended men and women having to walk on different sides of the street by saying:

"They are holy people and these very streets are home to the likes of R' Elyashiv and the Mirrer Yeshiva. It is truly a spiritual place that deserves our respect."

Are you joking? Do you honestly think that a street becomes holier and deserving of respect (????) because a yeshiva or rabbi's house sits on it? That is ridiculous. A street is a street is a street. It can't be holy or unholy. It's concrete, for crying out loud. And how are men and women walking together EVER showing any sort of disrespect?

I don't usually like to belittle the beliefs of people more religious than me, but this is going too far. Men and women have been sharing street space since the beginning of time- why has it always been all right until now?

3:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Derech Eretz Kadma L'Torah. That doesn't just mean that the particular hooligan was wrong. It means that the entire world view that would embarass or harass someone (or stand by while they are embarrased or harrassed) is wrong. It means that when people are so wrapped up in their own "frumkeit" that they no longer treat other people respectfully (or look away when someone else asks disrespectfully), then they fakert, they are committing a chilul Hashem and it would have been better to just sit down next to the woman in the first place. And I do not believe that any Gadol would countenance a lack of Derech Eretz. Reminds me of a story I read somewhere about the Satmar Rav who visited a shiva house of an individual who had played a major part in rescuing him from the Churban in Europe. One of his chassidim asked how the Satmar could give such kavod to a Jew who didn't have a beard, and the Satmar replied "It is true that when he gets up to Shamayim he will be asked "Jew, Jew, where is your beard"; however, when you get up to Shamayim you will be asked "Beard, Beard, where is your Jew?". It is a shame their was no Gadol (and I mean a Charedi Gadol)on that bus to put a stop to this which I am sure they would have.

6:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Derech Eretz Kadma L'Torah. That doesn't just mean that the particular hooligan was wrong. It means that the entire world view that would embarass or harass someone (or stand by while they are embarrased or harrassed) is wrong. It means that when people are so wrapped up in their own "frumkeit" that they no longer treat other people respectfully (or look away when someone else asks disrespectfully), then they fakert, they are committing a chilul Hashem and it would have been better to just sit down next to the woman in the first place. And I do not believe that any Gadol would countenance a lack of Derech Eretz. Reminds me of a story I read somewhere about the Satmar Rav who visited a shiva house of an individual who had played a major part in rescuing him from the Churban in Europe. One of his chassidim asked how the Satmar could give such kavod to a Jew who didn't have a beard, and the Satmar replied "It is true that when he gets up to Shamayim he will be asked "Jew, Jew, where is your beard"; however, when you get up to Shamayim you will be asked "Beard, Beard, where is your Jew?". It is a shame their was no Gadol (and I mean a Charedi Gadol)on that bus to put a stop to this which I am sure they would have.

6:34 PM  
Anonymous Emily said...

Yaakov W.- Yes, it is rather going in circles. I still think you're wrong, and it would seem nothing will convince you that Ms. Shear had the right to sit where she was sitting.
I am however glad that my interpretation of your comment about violence was incorrect, your clarification is perfectly reasonable, and I agree with that statment.
Thank you.

7:19 PM  
Blogger yonatan said...

What are the rules for mehadrin busses? i thought men and women sit seperately, but does it have to be men in the front and women in the back, why not like the mOnsey bus line, men on the left and women on the right?

11:28 PM  
Blogger triLcat said...

First, it's not clear whether Egged even has the legal right to make mehadrin lines. Second, since all the lines going to certain places are mehadrin, it forces those of us who don't wish to use those lines to either take taxis or use the mehadrin lines.

As a kalla in shana rishona, when I get on a bus, I generally sit with my husband if I possibly can. Now that I am pregnant and bus rides make me nauseous, my husband makes sure that I'm taken care of if I need to drink, eat, or (excuse me) vomit. The mehadrin lines are a real problem for me. They force me to be away from my husband when I need him most.

I have been yelled at for sitting across the aisle from my husband in the center of the bus, and told to move back to a place where there was not adequate seating for me. I have been treated rudely by men and women despite modest dress and a general adherence to these rules which are posted nowhere and are probably not legal by Israeli law.

One of the sins of the ancient Egyptians was "prishut derech eretz," keeping husbands and wives apart. How can a religious Jewish society advocate doing the same here and now?

9:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I pity a man who ever strikes my wife; he will not live long enough to regret it.

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