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Monday, June 25, 2007

WalMart Woes

I've always found that it isn't very hard to find people willing to express anti-WalMart sentiment these days. I've heard complaints about their hiring practices, complaints about their putting Mom-and-Pop stores out of business, complaints about how unpleasant the chaotic store organization methods make it to shop there. This time, the NY Times relates a different set of complaints, from residents of the Ultra-Orthodox enclave of Monsey, against the plans to open a new location:
When residents talk about traffic, they are fearful for the safety of families walking to synagogue on Saturdays. When they fret about merchandise, they wonder if frowned-upon items like bikinis and lingerie will be on display for everyone to see. And when they imagine the outsiders who would shop at the store, they worry that their presence could transform the town’s pious, sheltered atmosphere.

“The reason a lot of us came to live in Monsey is because we wanted to raise our families in a safe place, away from the influences of the outside world,” said Yossi Weinberger, 30, a father of four who works at a local travel agency. “I’m not sure it will be easy to do it if we have such a gigantic piece of the outside world move to our town.”
It seems that WalMart is doing everything they can to appease the community:
Elsewhere, Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest retailer, has often acquiesced to public pressure and made adjustments. It has hired local architects to meld stores into particular landscapes, painting a store in desert sandstone in Arizona and building an outlet in Long Beach, Calif., with an Art Deco look. In Middlefield, Ohio, home to one of the nation’s largest Amish communities, Wal-Mart placed hitching posts for horse-drawn buggies in a store’s parking lot and stocked shelves with barley soup and non-electric refrigerators.

Here, Wal-Mart has already agreed to conceal magazine covers that may be deemed offensive, such as the ones picturing celebrities in provocative outfits, “something that’s new for us,” Mr. Serghini said.
But I have to wonder whether this opposition really makes sense. I understand that the members of this community chose to live here because they can live a more insular existence, but they do live in America. The march or consumerism has been going on and on, everywhere you look. And as hard fought as it has been in certain locales, it shows no indication of slowing down. It certainly can be sad to see so-called Big Box stores taking over and putting smaller stores out of business (to wit: Seen a small, owner-operated bookstore lately? If so, take a picture - it's one of an endangered species). That said, there are certainly pros that come with the cons of these large chain stores, such as longer hours, broader product range and far more liberal return policies. In addition, regarding the arguments that a WalMart will somehow expose members of this community to a facet of life they are trying to avoid, I find that hard to fathom. The store is taking over an abandoned lot, and people - as always - have a choice as to whether they will patronize WalMart or not. It certainly doesn't seem to be an issue for the hundreds of Chasidim one can see in the Monticello WalMart on a given summer night.

124 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree. It's a free country. No one is forcing anyone to shop. The success of Walmarts even with all the bad word of mouth they get proves the pudding.

8:49 PM  
Anonymous anonymous Monseyite said...

They are not giving the real reason for the opposition. They are concerned that it will be drive the Chasidish mom and pops out of business. That's the truth. They've already lost out to the smaller Walmart that we got a few years back. Unfortunately, they have no clue how they are being viewed when they provide interviews with these publications. I live in Monsey and I love my Chasidish brothers and sisters, but they don't get it.

9:11 PM  
Blogger DAG said...

OTOH, Monseyite,

A Walmart can save the local community a LOT of money.

I hate to say it, but at this point in my life, I'd much rather patronize a chain store than a Jewish owned store. Most Jewish stores simply cannot compete on price, the shopping experience (returns and hours) and quality. The Jewel right outside of Chicago is a perfect example.

9:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It adds to the commerical tax base, which offsets residential taxes. If everyone in Monsey has a Rabbi in the household, it wouldn't matter then.

WalMart is part of Americana, whether we like it or not. Nobody can compete with the prices, and the poster above is right: it does drive mom and pop shops out. But that's part of the American way too: capitalism.

To those in Monsey, they don't live on another planet. Oh yes, the one in Monticello is banging with the Chasidim up there, so what's the difference?

11:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what would happen if Walmart moved to central avenue where the no.1 school is and opened up a glatt kosher grocery store inside, a judaica department and an in house sheital macher salon. and dont forget a victorias secret section in the back corner of the store.

2:52 AM  
Blogger Abbi said...

No one is forcing Chasidim to shop there with a gun to their heads.

If they want to be completely isolated from the outside world, they need to move to Meah Shearim.

3:06 AM  
Blogger triLcat said...

no, meah shearim is passe... they have to move to kiryat sefer or Beitar Illit.

You'd think that people who don't have much cash would be happy to have the discounts that Walmart offer.

I would, but alas, I live on the far side of the pond.

5:34 AM  
Blogger Mel said...

What the Chassidim are saying is just a red herring. They are doing this to protect their stores and shopkeepers.
The location where Walmart will be located will not impact Shabbos pedestrian traffic. Nobody lives near the future Walmart and no shul is anywhere near it.
The impact on traffic has become a concern of the Chassidim. However, when they put up their multi-family "affordable" housing projects the traffic impact was pooh poohed.
The Walmart Supercenter a few miles from Kiyas Joel is heavily used by the local Chassidim and I don't think it had an impact on their morals.
The real reason again is to protect their own shops.
Go for it Wal-Mart!!!!!

10:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orthomom, I dont know if you noticed, but in yesterdays Post there was an article about the Female MTA Busdriver that didnt want to wear pants. Apparently the Agudah has hired a lawyer to fight her case, on behalf of orthodox woman everyhwere.

11:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Naah ur misunderstanding what Walmart is doing. Its true that they dont have to do this, but like most smart companies and organizations they want to do their best to attract the most clientele. and the way to do that in Monsey is to cover up the magazines. This way the local very frum families will come willingly. I think its a smart buisness decision on their part.Brad

11:59 AM  
Blogger SephardiLady said...

Why not just come out and say we are protecting the business interests of our own vendors? Or maybe the parents don't want their children hanging out in WalMart at all hours of the night? (Which isn't a given if parents lay down the law, but I digress).

It is hard to buy into the idea that the community is anti-consumerism. Let's face it, even the most modest of frum communities are quite material oriented.

12:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To 2:52
I would do what I do now. I do not shop at Wal Mart at all. I do not like their business practices, nor how they treat employees. I have never gone into one, and do not intend to.

1:03 PM  
Blogger Rea said...

SephardiLady - Heaven forbid they hang out at WalMart!!! Whatever will become of our youth?? If they really get rebellious they might walk over to 'Cousins' and play some pool while watching the big screen TV.

1:54 PM  
Anonymous Naomi said...

I never shop at Walmart on principle because of the way they treat employees, fair traide issues, etc. And you're right - if the Chasidim moved to Monsey because they feel it's a closed community - it's not. This is still America: for better or for worse.

2:16 PM  
Blogger Scraps said...

Plenty of Chassidim (and other varieties of frum people) shop at the WalMart in Monsey, the one in the same shopping plaza as ShopRite. It strikes me as disingenuous to protest the one being proposed now.

2:45 PM  
Blogger DAG said...

Anon 2:52...I'd shop there

3:18 PM  
Blogger MordyS said...

it's all about the traffic. noone wants to say so, but that's really it. no rebbe can possibly justify why there shouldn't be one of these things in monsey, especially while there already is one, and especially while monroe has one. and the reason the housing developments aren't a traffic problem is b/c many chassidim just don't drive. if you knew how many families lived inside those monstrosities and ever noticed that there really aren't too many cars outside those things. notice how that large development behind amazing savings doesn't really have much room for parking? i'm sure you know that's b/c the developers incorporate proximity in their plans. the closer they build to the businesses, the less the people who live there will need cars. basically, never judge a chassidish population by how many cars are outside.
and also, they can't legitimately claim that it's going to put out of business the mom & pops, cuz then they would have to claim the same thing when they opened shoppers haven. there are how many little groceries in monsey? noone was worried that shoppers haven would put them out of business? truth is, with the growth rate in monsey, i'm sure there'll be enough people to go around to support all the mom & pops just like there's suddenly enough people to keep open all the restaurants. how many places have opened in the past 5 years and actually stayed open? ave r and purple pear across the street from one another? two chai pizzas and two shelli's?! 10 years ago, impossible. times are a-changin in m-town. and i know there have been plenty that haven't made it, but that's really just cuz they sucked so bad.
also, when i talk about traffic, i don't just mean cars. the rabbis in monsey, and whoever was consulted, (i'd really love to know who wal-mart approached on this, probably whoever christ lawrence sent them to) i'm sure are a lot more worried about all the random people from around the county that will start showing up out of the wood work. people that have probably avoided monsey for years, and to our betterment, will probably find a new reason to come back here. i don't know if anyone else noticed, but there's already been that sorta thing at pathmark. since the closing of the shoprite in the spring valley market place, there has definately been quite a different crowd that started using the pathmark. but like ya'll are saying, it is america and monsey is in no way a shtettle. maybe certain blocks, but it's not impenetrable.
me, i just gave up caring. it'll increase the tax basis by who knows how much, and they are known for contributing all kinds of interesting things to the community, like paying for new equipment at local fire houses and whatnot. plus, it already takes me 20 minutes to get to the post office and i live around the corner. how much worse can it get already?

3:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The opposition to Walmart is the same everywhere--the destruction of mom and pop businesses. I have sympathy about this and feel concern about the box stores and what they are doing to America. Probably, and to an extent sadly, nothing can be done about this overall situation. As Orthodox Jews, however, we ought to be disgusted by the playing of the religion card in this particular Walmart scenario. It is wrong to hide behind the Torah and Yiddishkeit in this case when everyone knows the issue is economic and identical to that in the entire fifty states.

6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey 2:52am, great idea. I don't know if you meant it, but a kosher walmart on central avenue sounds superb to me. Perhaps some of the kids or underemployed in the neighborhood could actually work for a living?! Perhaps we could have affordable kosher food to offset the rising cost of tuition?! Traffic WOULD be horrible, but just think about all of those newly employed teenagers, off the streets and out of their (ie birthday gift) luxury cars. Wouldn't that cut down on the traffic? Oh yeah, teenagers don't work around here at STORES like Walmart. Heaven forbid. That's minimum wage after all.

11:09 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

This seems to be the topic of the day on Jewish blogs! Here is what I posted on DovBear's blog:

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/dovbear/329403060556632023/#418303

11:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Increased traffic, plain and simple.

12:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is the difference if it is WalMart or Costco? You will find the same types of bargains on different levels. They will sell what they will sell and those who "choose" to shop there will and those who will "choose" not to shop there won't. It is a store that will offer a variety of different items to a variety of different people.

If someone was desperate for a High Chair and needed it ASAP, I am sure they would run in and pick one up as well as a cholent pot, telephone or whatever else was needed at the last minute or at a better price.

It is not as if a "Victoria Secrets" was trying to open up like we had here and one local Rav took the credit for chasing them out of town. Let's be real. The whole thing is ridiculous and blown out of proportion. The people come off making the community of Jews look foolish and immature. Adults obviously know that we have choices. Bikinis are sold in other stores in Monsey as well. The Jews do not have a monarchy on telling ALL the business owners in town what to sell or not but they do have a choice where they choose to shop and where they allow their children to go. If the store finds that they don't have enough customers, they will be forced to close. That is the only way to make a point. That is consumerism at its finest.

12:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orthomom, did you notice that the Times article described the Monsey Jews as essentially the same as the Amish?

7:07 PM  
Anonymous anonymous monseyite said...

Mordys, the Chasidim were furious about Shoppers' Haven. There was a lot of negative energy about that. Shoppers' basically gave the vendors in it no choice. Join us or get out of business. It's all about the little stores. About a year ago the Community Connections ran a bunch of ads begging people to use the community Heimish stores, that it was our responsibility. The reality is the stores in Monsey are so overpriced and offer such awful service that they need to offer a Din V'Cheshbon about it at Rosh Hashanah. $2.29 a pound for chicken (even if it is actually Kosher), $25 for a cake, $20 for a lousy bandanna, electronics, toys!!!, linens...these people are absolutely, certifiably insane. Oh no, wait a minute, they're not insane, they're still in business with stupid people continuing to buy there. Bring on Walmart and all other chain stores. Bring us Brachs and Supersol pleeeeease. Oh and how about a decent Deli, for G-d sakes!!!!!!!!!!!! Oy.

11:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i was wondering- whats going on with the orthomom courtcase?

1:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

can we all take a step back and ask- sice when was walmart considered a bad thing? its a SUPERMARKET!! for some social reasons, the one in the mountains has become somewhat of a hangout- but people- CHILL OUT!! wal marts in genral are just places where one can purchase different items they may need. they should be thanking walmart for offering to cover the magazines! ANYWAYS- can we try to keep this blog FIVE TOWNS oriented? when was the last time any of us were in monsey any way?

1:35 AM  
Anonymous Brooklyn said...

Monsey has some of the best Rabbis money can buy. I'm sure Wall-Mart will figure that out soon enough. That is real reason behind the protests.

1:54 AM  
Anonymous anonymous monseyite said...

Good point, Brooklyn. And regarding this not being of interest in the Five Towns, it wouldn't kill you people to get outside of your beautifully groomed, upper class box once in a while and think about the outside Orthodox world. This is called Orthomom, you know. That said, move on.

7:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I disagree, since when is the host obligated to discuss topics that you want and not that she wants. This is a blog on all ortho topics, some trivial some big.

8:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

5 towns. thats it. and hey anonymous monseyite- do i sense, ny any chance, some jealousy?

11:55 AM  
Anonymous anonymous monseyite said...

Nah. Truth is, I don't care for excess in my neck of the woods either. I am jealous of your "civilization" which we don't get out here in the sticks. Of course she can discuss what she wants. She brought this up. If we digress, we digress for a second. I personally learn a lot from the digressions on these blogs. Other frum people's issues are important to me. I read all about your school district stuff with rapt attention. I read about the Tenafly Eiruv...and other nitty gritty stuff that matters less. Anyway, like I said, move on if you want. Take care all. I'm out counting my deer and the high prices on my Shabbos shopping bill. I'll see you at King David. Good, good, good deli.

1:38 PM  
Blogger LakewoodShmuck said...

lakewood shoprite covered most filthy magazines, usually. if enough people ask they will do it.

10:57 PM  
Blogger khia said...

didn't avraham live in a non-jewish environment? whatever! judaism isn't supposed to be lived in a bubble IMO.

10:02 AM  
Blogger Notsofrummie said...

Its amazing at all the feedback on here is against Monsey people fighting walmart. Its as if the NY Times people only interviewed the certain people who were against but not us or the many others that think its sheletered of them to stop a franchise cuz of their own personal reasons. Have the Times interview the bloggers and those pro walmart or Pro capitalism and American culture and just know its 'not our place and responsoblity to go against it'.

11:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

didn't avraham live in a non-jewish environment? whatever! judaism isn't supposed to be lived in a bubble IMO.


now would that be a fair comparison being that NOBODY WAS JEWISH at the time? just a point to ponder.

1:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What it amounts to is that Monsey is defending its right to live in the dark ages.

9:12 AM  
Blogger gadgetsmom said...

I agree that they are just hiding behind judaism, the real reason is the local shops. I must wonder who they took quotes from, what business they are in.

I don't think they had this opposition in Monroe. In fact, since Monroe hardly has any stores, I think people were happy to see it. Now there is Kohl's and Target.. and everybody's happy (i think)..

Now, in my community, I'd love to show patronage to local shops, if only their return policy would match the department stores, as well as general customer service.

When i have to wait on line to pay in a small lets say, clothing store. The same person is handling the incoming phone calls, cashier, and general questions, it kind of turns me off as well.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When middle-American protests against Wal-mart to protect Mom and Pop shops, everyone cheers, and lots of towns have succeeded in keeping Wal-Mart out, at least for a time. Maybe Chasidish shopowners would do better to protest on those grounds instead of grounds that most Americans just don't get. Bikinis? Not on a woman? On a hangar? That's offensive? Yeah, that doesn't fly with most Americans.

www.truth-in-parenting.blogspot.com

10:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH THE ORTHOMOM CASE???? ORTHOMOM- ARE YOU THERE???? and by the way- this blog is running ou t of things to talk about. we need another election. that stuff was juicy.

12:41 AM  
Blogger David said...

I think O-Mom went to the Mountains this summer. She's been MIA.

12:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

any comments about the startling revelation that transportation costs will be higher than anticipated?

1:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes. Transportation costs are now up to $900,000 and will probably climb higher. Nick Fabrizio said something like up to $1.6 million, which sounds more accurate.

Shame on those board members who pushed it. Let everyone be happy with a double digit budget next year and higher taxes.

Many are already putting their homes up for sale in anticipation of this - yes, even the frum. We've had enough.

7:56 PM  
Blogger Chana said...

Here, Wal-Mart has already agreed to conceal magazine covers that may be deemed offensive, such as the ones picturing celebrities in provocative outfits, “something that’s new for us,” Mr. Serghini said.

There is nothing wrong with that. Here in flyover country, where the Jewish community is strong but tiny compared %-wise to the larger community, I once very politely but clearly made my case for taking a Marie-Claire issue off the checkout stands to the grocery store manage, and he agreed it was over the top, took them down right away, and was completely accomodating about it. Speaking up on these things is just the right thing to do!

And why shouldn't the Chassidim want to protect their own businesspeople?? Why would anyone want to see people lose their parnassa in their community - they could be businesses that have passed down through families, representing blood sweat and tears of generations, stuff of local lore to be destroyed by a big box conglomerate that just wants to make another tiny percentage of their profit off the frummies because they can?

I didn't know there are Wal-Marts in Israel. That kinda makes me sick. Nothing is sacred.

10:07 AM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Will you people PLEASE, lulei demistafina, STOP believing everything you read. ESPECIALLY in the Times. I saw this story too and was confused. I know Monsey very well, and there already IS a Wal-Mart in Airmont, which is part of greater Monsey and where everybody already shops. There's also a Wal-Mart right outside of Lakewood, where everybody shops.

Trust me, Wal-Mart is not an issue in Monsey. Chevra, I used to be a journalist. The guy needed a quote for his story (what he really needed was a story!) and this is the best he could get.

12:59 PM  
Anonymous Get a cloo said...

Will you people PLEASE, lulei demistafina, STOP believing everything you read. ESPECIALLY in the Times. I saw this story too and was confused. I know Monsey very well, and there already IS a Wal-Mart in Airmont, which is part of greater Monsey and where everybody already shops. There's also a Wal-Mart right outside of Lakewood, where everybody shops.

Trust me, Wal-Mart is not an issue in Monsey. Chevra, I used to be a journalist. The guy needed a quote for his story (what he really needed was a story!) and this is the best he could get.


Cloo, before trashing the Times as an unreliable source of information, perhaps you should actually read the article. In fact, the article does note the existance of the Wal Mart in Airmont:

If constructed, it would replace a Wal-Mart in Airmont, a village two miles to the east. Company officials estimate it would add 170 jobs.

Do you really think the reporter made the story up? He cited extensive evidence of a very public and organized opposition campaign, including ads, newspaper editorials, fliers and even the hiring of a transportation engineer to conduct an analysis. He also quoted a number of Monsey residents and a Wal-Mart official who spoke extensively regarding the company's outreach efforts. Your glib dismissal of this story as the work as the product of the imagination of a bored NYT reporter makes no sense.

While it may appear odd that there are Wal-Marts (and other similar stores) in the Monsey region with no apparent protest, Route 59 is the heart of ultra-orthodox Monsey. Would it be odd if Jews protested the opening of a Blockbuster video store on 13 Avenue. Even though there are other Blockbusters (and much, much worse) in other parts of Brooklyn?

2:13 PM  
Blogger triLcat said...

chana: nono. I was complaining about the LACK of WalMarts in Israel.
We do have an IKEA, though!

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