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Wednesday, February 27, 2008

Quick Thoughts on the Concert Ban

Reading about the recent Jewish music concert ban and the resulting cancellation of a widely promoted upcoming Jewish music concert in Madison Square Garden made my head spin. How did this happen? I mean, I know that a similar ban had gained foothold in the Israel Charedi world - but for some reason I thought things were different here. There are also apparently members of the Israeli Charedi community who seem to find it appropriate to spray women dressed in clothing deemed inappropriate with bleach, or get violent with a woman sitting at the front of a public bus. I guess I should have paid closer attention to the warning bells going off in the back of my brain. After all, recent events have brought us a boycott over headshots of women displayed in a storefront on a main public thoroughfare, and calls for elementary school Rebbes to stop playing ball with their Talmidim - we've even graduated to rioting over in the ostensibly more mixed Charedi neighborhood of Boro Park (before you disagree, remember that in BP, as compared to the Israeli Charedi neighborhood of Bnei Brak, men and women still shop in the same stores and walk on the same side of the street, and restaraunts in BP still seat groups of men and women eating together).

But I can still admit to being shocked that views that I consider to be so extreme have started to affect my world. Do I expect a Jewish music concert ban to come to the more moderate Yeshivish/Charedi Lite segment of the Five Towns any time soon? Well, no... but I am starting to worry that the possibility might not be as implausible as it seemed just a few years ago. I know locals who had planned to take their kids to the now-canceled concert in question - their kids were (almost) as excited for the concert as the multitudes of shrieking tween girls I saw lined up in a news story about a Hannah Montana concert. I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Jews need our own version of Hannah Montana, but I am suggesting that kids need an outlet that allows them the opportunity to have some fun and let off some steam.

The Jewish Star actually reports that the text of the ban would seem to imply that all Jewish music concerts are affected - though a Rosh Yeshiva who signed the ban seems to dispute that, leaving the whole situation a bit confused:
...the text of the ban was identical to that of a ban enacted in Israel last year, which succeeded in shutting down a joint performance of Mordechai Ben David and Avrohom Fried. It included references to Israel and called for a complete end to Jewish music concerts. That made it unclear if the document was intended to apply only to the Madison Square Garden event, or if American Charedi rabbonim intended to follow the lead of Israeli colleagues and enact a sweeping prohibition against Jewish music.
In an interview with The Jewish Star, Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky, a rosh yeshiva in Philadelphia who signed the ban, said, “It is very general, you’re right, but I don’t think it will refer to all concerts. You have to have an outlet for kids.”
I can certainly get behind the sentiment that our kids need an outlet. It's one thing to live a lifestyle that encourages our barely pubescent kids to spend long hours in the Beit Midrash, 6 days a week. I can fully appreciate that sort of commitment to Torah study - but how can we realistically expect our kids to sign on for said lifestyle when the opportunities for getting some release via "kosher" fun get taken away, one by one? Are we entering an era where just about everything we teach our children includes the word "don't" or "can't"? Say it ain't so...

63 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

unreal!!!

10:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Observer here. Welcome back: long time no post. I guess when a community keeps moving to the right, eventualy ...

10:48 AM  
Blogger MoChassid said...

This is what I think:

http://mochassid.blogspot.com/2008/02/lipa-ban-and-sanctity-of-contract.html

11:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't think it can't happen here. I know of Rebbeim in local Yeshivos indoctrinating their students to not listen to Jewish music of any kind. The Taliban are around the corner. This is not the Judaism G-D wants. We need Moshiach so desperately.

muttil

2:38 PM  
Blogger Yonah said...

Events like these only reinforce my decision to move out of Brooklyn, almost a decade ago. As a kid, I remember going to MBD and MBC concerts and everyone sat as a family - there was no triple-section seating with a mechitza (i.e. Men, Women, and Family).

It's Sad

4:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

who are you kidding? My bar mitzvah age son in a local yeshiva was already told by his rebbie not to listen to Lipa.

4:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well if there won't be jewish music concerts (what no more YBC - what will my kids do?) then i'll just have to take them to hannah montana.

this is ridiculous!

music is a tremendous outlet. rabbis should speak and discuss first, and ban second.

4:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem is not the music as much as the socializing an fraternization going on between boys and girls, before and after the concert, or during intermission. It's almost as bad as a Saturday night in Monticello!
I'll bet that most of these teens would not want to go to these concerts, if they are told they have to go with their parents! The outlet they are seeking is "chillin" AWAY from adult supervision.

5:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The outlet they are seeking is "chillin" AWAY from adult supervision."
So instead they'll go to bars or pool halls. This is ridiculous.

6:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

where else are boys and girls supposed to meet? this separation of the sexes is getting a little to extreme. instead of meeting in public places under the eyes of adults (and hopefully parents) kids are sneaking off who knows where with who knows whom. (i don't know if i used the who/whom correctly).

when did socializing become such an issur?

8:03 PM  
Anonymous Anti-Taliban said...

So why are youngsters prohibited from attending Blue Claws minor league baseball with their families in Lakewood?

There is a sickness abroad that has zero connection to Jewish life prior to this century. It is a reactionary attempt to capture a past that never existed. It indeed has more in common with the Taliban than with anything historically halachic.

The Orthodox community must stand up to the perpetrators of all this nonsense in service to what the perpetrators call "Das Torah" but which has nothing to do with Torah. Etz Chaim He!!!

8:44 PM  
Blogger XGH said...

> Are we entering an era where just about everything we teach our children includes the word "don't" or "can't"? Say it ain't so...

It is certainly so.

And I have zero sympathy for you (sorry!). You bring your kids up in a fundamentalist isolationist sect, what the heck did you expect?! Just be glad they're not being pushed into suicide bombing or anything really crazy.

10:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Before you go 'nuts' about these
issues, do your homework!
These are not some 'taliban' rabbies banning 'westernesation',
they have a problem in their cong.
and are working to solve it to the best of their ability.
We, and you, are outsiders, and we can't judge them.
If your child had a problem, you don't expect the whole wide world to tell you what to do or to write articles and blog as how close-minded you are or classify you as some fanatic. So chill out and let the sun-shine in...

11:10 PM  
OpenID thegameiam said...

I'm thoroughly appalled.

First of all, who says we can't judge this because we're outsiders? Last I checked, the right answer to "am I my brother's keeper?" is YES!

Second, if there is some specific problem with a specific child, then his/her parents should discipline him/her. Why should entire communities be affected?

Third, we're talking about a concert where men sing songs of praise to God. Really, what's the problem here? Extra prayers? Sheesh.

1:31 AM  
Blogger MDmom said...

the trend is troubling in an increasingly right-leaning modern orthodox world, it's not just happening in ny, and not just in regards to music and other seemingly mundane events.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3511151,00.html

worldly, secularly educated modern orthodox gdolim of the past would be horrified i think. it is the chumra-taking, holier-than-thou therefore better-than-you-jew pseudo puritanism that is completely at odds with modern orthodoxy's stance of torah u'mada.

1:57 AM  
Blogger mother in israel said...

mdmom--thank you for the link. I blogged about it.

4:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mdmom, thanks for the excellent link! It is so true, and so sad. It is starting to feel like modern orthodox Zionists like me and my family (and we've been MO pretty much since it first became defined, even when we lived in Boro Park in my youth) have few places to live in the world. Right now, we live in South Florida, we send our 5 kids to one of the local orthodox day schools, and are generally very happy and comfortable here with regards to our level of frumkeit and the community around us. We believe that our family belongs in Eretz Yisrael and soon since our children are between ages 2 1/2 and 8 1/2, and it only gets more and more difficult as they get older.

But it is very difficult for us to envision a place we might be comfortable in Israel and we know quite a lot about it, having lived there for nearly 10 years, and having been married there. The biggest problem is choosing a proper school for our children, and the secondary problem is the whole "neighborhood" thing - it scares us to death. We have a few friends that moved to Ramat Bet Shemesh and simply didn't fit in after a few years and some of them have even been "forced" (one literally *forced* by serious threats made by his new Charedi neighbors) to move out (this a few years ago before the recent Charedi nastiness in RBS). We are looking at Modi'in, Petach Tikvah (where we lived just after we were married, and where my wife has family living). Yerushalaim would be great, but impractical for a family of 7, and impossible due to our limited finances. But the school issue still is a problem that we have not yet seen a solution to, Chorev is great, but also trending towards the Charedi side as described in the article. Oy Vey.

5:56 AM  
Anonymous open the gates said...

I noticed some comments regarding the issue of "kids hanging out" with kids of the opposite gender.
Regardless of anyone's opinion about this topic, it was/would have been a complete non-issue at this particular concert.
Not only was the concert to have been totally separate seating, with separate entrances and no way to get from one section to the other, Lipa agreed to do the show with no intermission, so that even if a way was found to get around all the safeguards, there simply wouldn't be time for the boys & girls to hang out.
It seems to me that Lipa went above and beyond all the guidelines, even more than any other Orthodox performer in history, and only got shafted for his troubles.
I know Lipa. In person he's a sweet, unassuming guy who wouldn't hurt a fly. My heart aches for him.

9:44 AM  
Blogger almost_frei said...

This ban is the biggest 'snow job' perpetuated on us. The guy behind it, bamboozled the rabbonim to agree to it, by playing one off against the other, and saying it's been signed by rabbonim in E"Y etc and creating the ban and signatories BEFORE they even agreed to sign on!

What a chillul Hashem

I think it shows complete lack of backbone by rabbonim here in the US for not standing up and saying, we were fooled.
What else is new?

10:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Observer here. I feel a need to respond to the following:

"Before you go 'nuts' about these
issues, do your homework!
These are not some 'taliban' rabbies banning 'westernesation',
they have a problem in their cong.
and are working to solve it to the best of their ability.
We, and you, are outsiders, and we can't judge them.
If your child had a problem, you don't expect the whole wide world to tell you what to do or to write articles and blog as how close-minded you are or classify you as some fanatic. So chill out and let the sun-shine in..."

With all respect, I have to disagree, This is not a case of a Rav speaking to his congregation: it is a group of Rabaaim who issued a public proclaimation that it is forbidden to attend the concert.

As to letting "the sun-shine in," I would, but last time I saw Hair, there were female vocalists singing the song (who am I kidding? -- it is on my I-Pod)

10:39 AM  
Blogger Abbi said...

I agree with xgh. This is what happens when you sell your soul to charedi-ism.

11:19 AM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

I think the real point from XGH is that "moderate Yeshivish/Charedi Lite" cannot easily exist -- and eventually it alls divides into Chareidi and Modern Orthodox.

"but how can we realistically expect our kids to sign on for said lifestyle when the opportunities for getting some release via "kosher" fun get taken away, one by one" That's EXACTLY the issue. Chareidi worldview does not officially accept "kosher" fun. The internet can't be kosher, it's assur. Concerts can't be "kosher." "Fun" is basically "chukos hagoyim" and is therefore, extremely limited.

11:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

for; thegameiam & the observer.
There is nothing to observe & no game to be in.
To these Rabbis, it is not a game.
I don't agree to all they say either, but I would not bud-in to another community's issues when I'm not part of it.period.

If the concert would have been geared to the 'modern orthodox',i.e. 5-towns,NJ,FL etc.
nobody would have blinked.
The 33, or so, rabbis only became
'concerned' when the bulk of the ads were directed to BP, Willi, & Flatbush. The singers are their own people, so they feel obligated to say whats on their mind.
So back to square one...
DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST!!

1:26 PM  
Blogger Abbi said...

Hmm, I'd say judging by the punctuation, diction, grammar and syntax, one of the YW intellectual heavyweights have made their way over here.

Hey, Anon, isn't it assur for you to be on the internet altogether?

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

These Rabbis should stick to doing what they do best – advocating that young couples should meet each other at least twice (under supervision, of course) before they get married.

What a great way to “socialize.” It’s much better that they “meet” in bed on their wedding night rather than go to a concert.

3:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wait a min. Rabbi Shmuel kaminetsky is involved in this. You all know his brother from here in the 5T's Rabbi B Kaminetsky from YOSS. Does YOSS not run a fundraiser each year, and was the entertainment this year none other then Lippa Schmeltzer??

3:23 PM  
Blogger SephardiLady said...

Orthomom, I put up a different angle, that which I would call "Economic Terrorism." I certainly am glad we don't make our parnasah from owning a wig store or organizing events.

3:55 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"Wait a min. Rabbi Shmuel kaminetsky is involved in this. You all know his brother from here in the 5T's Rabbi B Kaminetsky from YOSS. Does YOSS not run a fundraiser each year, and was the entertainment this year none other then Lippa Schmeltzer??"

And SURPRISE SURPRISE it was mixed seating .... how odd the Yeshiva World hagiography, in canonizing Lipa as the Chasid who saw the light and fell in line dim-wittedly gushed over how Lipa already doesn't perform in mixed seating venues in the same fawning breath it took to describe how Lipa's rosh yeshiva chavrusa has convinced him to limit his repertoire to songs that were circumcised.

6:11 PM  
Anonymous anon said...

does this mean i can't take my 3 year old to an uncle moishy concert?

and did anyone think of the parnossah the artists themselves are losing by no longer being able to do concerts?

g-d forbid a teenager should see a member of the opposite sex or a talmid chochom-in-the-making spends an hour or so away from learning. and these rabbis moan about the droves of teenagers going off the derech???? who do you think is practically showing them the door???

8:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chas V'shalom, Uncle Moishy... Next they'll say socializing is assur from infancy.

This really gets under my skin. "Al Tosuf" is a mitzva these Jews don't keep to and they will continue to add mitzvos as long as people keep listening to them and not standing up to it.

9:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just don't like this "in your face" massive p'sak. This is El Al and Gourmet Glatt all over again. I am surprised we have not heard a universal condemnation of Bagel Boss. This is how these people get power. Just stop supporting their schools and direct yoru Tzedaka to needy orphans in Russia or Israel. That was were the money was to go. Just another attack and we again let them win.

11:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mayer Fertig had an excellent in the Jewish Star. He named the guy behind the ban and how he practically bamboozled the rabbonim to sign this ban. Rabbi Kaminetzky stated that the rabbonim usually meet to discuss a ban but didn't in this case because time was of the essence and agreed to sign it because they thought it came from israel. Rabbi Kaminetzy came off as very candid - but it scares me to think that very prominent rabbonim will make decisions, judgements, and bans that affect klal yisroel without doing their howmework first.

11:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Its a herd mentaility. Once a few join, you don't want to be left out. Rabbonim are human, and the screw up often (and a lot more then people want to admit to), even a "daas hatorah" can make mistakes. They sure bdid in this instance.

1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

where else are boys and girls supposed to meet? this separation of the sexes is getting a little to extreme. instead of meeting in public places under the eyes of adults (and hopefully parents) kids are sneaking off who knows where with who knows whom. (i don't know if i used the who/whom correctly).

when did socializing become such an issur?

better they socialize in Jewish events-would you want to wait to they socialize in college with non Yehudim-or even worse socialize in a coed rehab center after they have been pushed out.

9:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pure Religious Fascism. Our women are 2 generations from wearing burkhas

10:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

With all due respect to Hrav Shor who works with teens at risk in his Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel.

Perhaps it was the venue MSG or the cross over of Jewish music to pop that is the problem. In any case an edict was served on the public by Dass Torah.

It is shcoking to go to weddings today and see guys and girls do moves that belong on the streets of Bedsty and Harlem rather than adhere to the beauty and deveykus of traditional Jewish Music.

I am not a Tzadik I enjoy HBO in the privacy of my home and occasionaly I will go with my wife to see a movie, and when a familiar song from my teens years is heard I will humm along,I root for the home teams and attend ball games.

Perhaps a suggestion to our community at large is to make that distinction between Jewish Music and culture and Our gentile world around us. Is it possible to enjoy American Culture and stay frum?
Of course it is our parents do/did.

However when we tear down that division along with incorporating Gentile culture, to the point like putting lipstick on a pig it does become dangerous to the Frum world.

How many of us listened to the Yankees at Yeshiva How many of of us cut school to go to a movie. How many of us went down to Miami Beach and behaved like Yeshiva Bachurim and Baid Yakov Girs shouldnt. There was allways the fear of getting caught by our parents and our Mechanchim and that is how we learned the fear of heaven. In addition drugs were unheard of and promiscuity was rearly heard of.

When Frum and Chassidish society begins to cross into gentile society and makes all the taboo kosher, we are venturing into dangerous waters, legitimizing "kosher brothels in Brooklyn" H'Y
A Frum/Chassidish Concert at venues performed by the rolling stones? Let's all take a step back and look at our Charedi society. The outcome and damage of the past 20 years may be so severe that it could Chas V'Sholom never be repaired

2:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is a very valid point - one that i disagree with but i concede to be valid.

however, the issue arises as to how this ban was issued and why was it issued so late in the game. On top of that, this concert was a tzedaka concert, there was going to be separate seating and entrances, and lipa was only going to sing songs with chassideshe niggunim.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

pure rabbinic tyranny and the talibanization of yiddishkeit

6:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ridiculous, what fools we all look like. Just to be clear, I plan to attend the CAHAL concert this Sat. night! :-D

Lawrence high-school @ 8PM - be there if you care, want to make a statement, or just to get a Mitzvah, and enjoy this very appropriate activity for the month of Adar Bet.

1:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ever heard of emunas chachomim. everybody that is bashing the rabbanim here is 'over' many hilchos loshon hara, look them up smart allecks!!!

8:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Emunas Chocomim -- does not preclude questioning -- does it? The "charedi culture" has taken ove halacha. For example, the HaModia (which i read and subscribe to) does not show pictures of any women -- whatsoever. Is that a halacha? Are we muslims? Where does that come from? It is merely that the "culture" has pushed the halacha aside.

E mail me at kenyonmartin2003@yahoo.com

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