Dinner Musings
I had to bite the bullet and go to a certain dinner recently. My readers may recall me saying in the past that I try to attend as few of these types of things as possible, but this was a must. All in all, the evening was enjoyable. A few little observations:
1. The dinner was mixed seating. Finally. Between Yeshiva school dinners, weddings, and various other Tzedakah events, I tend to resent the fact that I get all dressed up, pay for a babysitter, and leave my kids kicking and screaming, on one of the few nights my husband gets home before my bedtime, only to have to bid him goodbye immediately upon arrival at our destination. It was really refreshing to actually eat dinner with him for once, even if it was a not-so-romantic candlelight dinner at a table for ten. From what I understand, only in recent years have all these Yeshiva dinners been separate seating. My daughter's school was apparently mixed until rather recently (still before my time though). And actually, Brooklyn Yeshiva Chaim Berlin's dinner is still mixed. Can you believe?
2. How many combinations of the same 30 phrases can people come up with for their dinner journal ads? "You are true role models for us all". "We are so proud of your accomplishments". "To all the truly deserving honorees". The journal chairpeople should just give out forms with blanks for the names and a few choices of generic terms, and the rest already filled in. You know like that fill-in-the-blank game children love to play in camp called mad libs - or in this case, ad libs.
3. Two women were honored, and were given (drumroll) the Artscroll Women's Siddur as a gift. Nice gesture, but I've made my opinion known here on that particular publication. I'm not the biggest fan.
4. There was dancing, but only for the men. Not that I'm big into the circle dances, but what are the women supposed to do while the men stamp around in a ring holding hands?
1. The dinner was mixed seating. Finally. Between Yeshiva school dinners, weddings, and various other Tzedakah events, I tend to resent the fact that I get all dressed up, pay for a babysitter, and leave my kids kicking and screaming, on one of the few nights my husband gets home before my bedtime, only to have to bid him goodbye immediately upon arrival at our destination. It was really refreshing to actually eat dinner with him for once, even if it was a not-so-romantic candlelight dinner at a table for ten. From what I understand, only in recent years have all these Yeshiva dinners been separate seating. My daughter's school was apparently mixed until rather recently (still before my time though). And actually, Brooklyn Yeshiva Chaim Berlin's dinner is still mixed. Can you believe?
2. How many combinations of the same 30 phrases can people come up with for their dinner journal ads? "You are true role models for us all". "We are so proud of your accomplishments". "To all the truly deserving honorees". The journal chairpeople should just give out forms with blanks for the names and a few choices of generic terms, and the rest already filled in. You know like that fill-in-the-blank game children love to play in camp called mad libs - or in this case, ad libs.
3. Two women were honored, and were given (drumroll) the Artscroll Women's Siddur as a gift. Nice gesture, but I've made my opinion known here on that particular publication. I'm not the biggest fan.
4. There was dancing, but only for the men. Not that I'm big into the circle dances, but what are the women supposed to do while the men stamp around in a ring holding hands?
posted by orthomom at 8:15 PM
76 Comments:
>>what are the women supposed to do while the men stamp around in a ring holding hands?
make them think you're talking about them.
What's wrong with the Artscroll Womens Siddur? I think its lovely. My son's yeshiva gave it out to some women at their dinner as a gift and I use it every day.
And people wonder why there are so many socially inept young Orthodox singles. The sad part is that 98% of these women I'm being screened from couldn't get a rise out of me or any other man with a forklift.
Sorry to hear about your Er . . Deficiency, anon, but it sounds to me like it's not the women who are to blame. Try some Levitra and check out some other website if it's a rise you're looking for. Or come to the next dinner. No disrespect intended, OrthoMom, but this perv needs to be put in his place.
I'd like to make a slight correction, if I may be so bold, coming from a family that has been attending Chaim Berlin dinners for decades. Chaim Berlin's dinner is only "mixed" for those who specifically request it. The majority of guests (certainly, the "Chaim Berliners") do sit separately. My own husband's yeshiva, Chofetz Chaim, has a similar set-up. There is separate seating at either end with mixed seating serving to separate the two. The mixed seating is for families and guests of the honorees or "older" members of the community. The yeshiva strongly discourages the kollel students from sitting in this mixed area. I think that's pretty reasonable policy although I do admit it would be nice to eat dinner with the hubbie for a change. What gets to me is that the cocktail preceding the dinner is so mixed that you feel like you're bumping into members of the opposite sex constantly. Where's the tzniut in that?
Yo bring up a very good point. How many times have we all heard that R' Moshe's wedding was mixed seating. Problem is, the world has changed. People think prurient thoughts, and entertain them, more than they did in the past. Case in point: the Red Shul crowd that seems to have taken over here in the comments. OM, you have never been anything but proper in your blog. But these guys are giving your shul and your neighborhood a bad name. Maybe in this case the dinner you mentioned in your post SHOULD have been separate.
Blah, blah, blah, red shul sucks, blah, blah, blah. Why don't you develop a personality of your own instead of this pathetic bandwagon jumping, red shul bashing. The dinner was beautiful, our Rav is terrific, our honorees were honorable, and you're all just jealous of a frum, smart, witty, rather hot-looking bunch. Get a life, losers.
I tend to resent the fact that I get all dressed up, pay for a babysitter, and leave my kids kicking and screaming, on one of the few nights my husband gets home before my bedtime, only to have to bid him goodbye immediately upon arrival at our destination. It was really refreshing to actually eat dinner with him for once, even if it was a not-so-romantic candlelight dinner at a table for ten.
If it were that important to you (or your husband for that matter) to spend a nice evening out together, wouldn't you arrange such an evening on your own? Why do you feel it is necessary to have a shul or tzedakah function conform to your personal wants or needs? I'm not disagreeing with you here, but the purpose of such events isn't so that you can get face time with your husband -- rather to show support for that organization.
You don't even have to go that crazy -- there are plenty enough food establishments within walking distance of your home.
How many combinations of the same 30 phrases can people come up with for their dinner journal ads? "You are true role models for us all". "We are so proud of your accomplishments". "To all the truly deserving honorees".
The phrase "I love you" is repeated ad nauseum between husband and wife (hopefully) and yet the words are still meaningful on some level. As corny as it sounds in a journal, these 30 same phrases mean more than the words themselves can describe. Besides, what else would we read during the speeches?
Two women were honored, and were given (drumroll) the Artscroll Women's Siddur as a gift.
It was nice that those women were acknowledged. Might I ask what you might consider a decent gift for such an honor to be?
There was dancing, but only for the men. Not that I'm big into the circle dances, but what are the women supposed to do while the men stamp around in a ring holding hands?
The guy singing was annoying. I joined the dancing for a bit only because I felt bad that so few men were dancing, but really, the majority of the men were not dancing at all. Are you suggesting that women should have been dancing on the other side of a mechitza? Or are you suggesting that since you never get a chance to dance with your husband because he's never home that the shul function also have mixed dancing for your pleasure as well?
WIO: I'm quite happy at the Muqata, thanks!
Actually, there are plenty of great communities here in EY for you to move to, though it can't be nearly as fascinating as reading about Five Towns!
PS: The floppy hat disappeared years ago...
4. do what they would do if the event wasn't mixed.
To all: if you have a point to make, try to do so without casting aspersions on a Shul or community. Your point will be stronger and you won't look like a fool in the process.
I am amused at your hypocrisy. You say the above, directly after you said:
As for the comment about this blog being "anything but proper," there is more to being "proper" than using squeaky clean language in posts. Bashing neighborhood rabbanim, charities and other institutions can be vastly more destructive than the offhanded use of a double entendre. I'm not saying I disagree with OM's posts along these lines. I am merely pointing out that this blog was controversial (and hashkafically problematic) long before the last few days, double entendre "eivers" or not. Those who blog and post comments should do so with their eyes open.
I'm sorry Orthotri, but you certainly are the fool here.
You know what, you guys came over here, and invaded my comments with prurient and puerile inuueno-laden comments. I tried to completely ignore it, hoping you would bore of it with no attention. Enough. Seriously. Learn to comment like human beings, and you are welcome to stick around. Otherwise, find a new blog to populate. Seriously.
Dear AskShifra,
I have a big problem. I am a blogger who tries to post a new item on my blog at least once a day. For a long time, it was fun, interesting work -- especially because I maintained my focus on family, community, politics, and other topics that interest me.
Although I didn't always agree with the people who left comments, for the most part they were interesting and somewhat intelligent.
But then, just a few weeks ago, a bunch of schmucks discovered my blog and started leaving inane, poorly written, and unbearably long comments.
Making matters worse, not only were these comments pointless and offtopic, but they were highly contradictory in logic and at times highly offensive.
My question is, should I kill my blog because it's become a waste of my time, or should I quit my job and devote my days to fighting these mindless morons and showing them how moronic and mindless they truly are. Or should I just get over it?
Please respond soon. I'm so bored...
Sincerely,
Bored Blogger in the Five Towns
'What's wrong with the Artscroll Womens Siddur? '
My wife was looking forward to it. Then, on the very first bracha, she saw "Modeh ani" rather than "modah ani". Women's siddur?
It contains many halachic positions that simply do not reflect normative practice. For example, it says women should not say bircat hagomel. Chas v'shalom that they discourage fulfilment of a mitzvah! And in every community I've been a part of, women say that bracha after having a baby, after being released from the hospital after a serious illness, and after travelling across the Atlantic. Sometimes it is said at the bimah during the regular services, sometimes at kiddush, and sometimes at home. I could go on, but I think you get the drift. She does not use it for tefillah any more.
Regarding mixed seating, visit any old Orthodox shul (more than 50 years old) in the US and see if you find any photographs of their annual shul dinners. I've never seen such a photograph in which there was separate seating. It is clear the mixed seating was a strong minhag of American Jews and it is inappropriate to try to change that minhag. In addition, Rabbi Y. H. Henkin has poskened that it is actually a mitzvah in some circumstances to seat single people together:
http://www.yasharbooks.com/2004/12/seating-arrangements-at-weddings.html
Chas v'shalom that Jews might meet, get married, and create more Jewish children!
I would add that my wife and I are attending a wedding tonight in Williamsburg. We are taking our cell phones as that may be the only way we will be able to communicate with each other.
OT, the only one here with ad hominem attacks is you. I said "you guys", I'm not sure how that means anything but that. I am not slandering an entire community, that is clearly your defensiveness showing. I am slandering a group of commenters, who showed up en masse, clearly to banter childishly with each other. Get a room, guys.
Charlie:
I agree with you. I don't like it for many of the reasons you mentioned. Also, to be petty about it, I don't like the white leather cover.
You know what, you guys came over here, and invaded my comments with prurient and puerile inuueno-laden comments. I tried to completely ignore it, hoping you would bore of it with no attention. Enough. Seriously. Learn to comment like human beings, and you are welcome to stick around. Otherwise, find a new blog to populate. Seriously.
Hear, hear! This is a serious blog. It's clear to me, and I live in Israel, that all of you "Orthos" came here together with some kind of plan to hijack OM's blog. You are clearly enjoying yourselves, but no one else is enjoying your not so witty repartee. Make yourselves a blog.
OM: calling someone a "fool" and a "hypocrite" without much else is an ad hominem attack.
Ok, let me do this slowly and maybe you'll understand. You called your little pals "fools" well before I ever addressed you, because you don't like the fact that they are casting aspersions on someone at the same time they make a point. Yet, somehow, in the very same comment, is OK for you to make a point defending your innuendo-laden comments by criticizing my blog. The name-calling on my part was entirely justified. You are hypocritical and juvenile. The hypocrisy is evident. And all one has to do is scroll down to your dumb little conversation on another comment thread to prove the juvenile behavior.
Your silence on my other point -- that this blog is not in accord with hashkafa and any Rav would agree -- I will take as tacit agreement. If you choose to respond, please try not to be rude
Actually, you might be surprised to know that you are incorrect. I am extremely careful about what I put up here, my long-time readers are aware and can attest to the fact that I have sought out Rabbinic guidance after posting certain posts, and have taken some down. I do not do this with a guilty heart. I am comfortable with what I put up here. If a Rabbinic leader stands up and makes a statement at a community dinner, or sends around an email to enough people who talked publicly about it that I heard about it, or a local organization puts an ad in a paper with a circulation of thousands, I have nothing to ber ashamed of.
Also:
this blog is not in accord with hashkafa
Um...not sure how anything can be in accordance with hashkafah. Maybe the word you are looking for is "Halacha"?
Also, to be petty about it, I don't like the white leather cover.
Now that's funny. When I bought my first set of Artscroll machzorim (for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur), I bought the white leather version.
OM, sorry you have to deal with these trolls... hopefully another blogger will post something else they can all disagree with and they'll all go chasing after the new shiny thing as soon as possible...
Meanwhile, am I missing something, or wouldn't it be possible, duing the times when all the men start circle-dancing, for women to circle-dance too (should any be inclined)? If there's a mechitza, then definitely over on their side, and if not, then on the far side of the room if it's mixed seating (men would certainly give way to get as far the heck away as possible from such a horrible sight!) ... even a makeshift barrier could be devised that's high enough halachically by moving chairs, the same way they clear a dance floor -- am I wrong?
It's a simcha. If dancing is part of the celebrations, and women actually expressed an interest, you can believe that in time accomodations would begin to be made. Personally, I think women sit around because they don't want to dance themselves. And any who might, don't want to make the first move out of fear of being branded with the dreaded "F" word.
Orthomom: I'm sorry to see that all these 5T (?) OrthoMonsters have infested your blog.
Can't they get a life? There must be 70 million other blogs to bother, and they choose yours?
Worst case - turn on comment moderation till they get bored and leave.
Think of them as kosher-style Spam ;-)
1. CB's dinner has only a few mixed tables, mostly the families of the honorees.
2. BMG (Lakewood) at their last dinner actually had a fill in the blank ad. You were able to choose from five or six options and to fill in a name.
Regarding the trolls that have nothing better to do with their time, don't let them get to you. Anyone that has been following this blog for any amount of time will see that the posts are always interesting, well thought out and within proper bounds.
OT, let me get this straight. Orthomom posts several uncontroversial thoughts about her shul dinner (I mean, do you think that mixed seating is a bad thing or that shul dinner ad copy is brilliant and inventive?). You, ostensibly in resonse to Anon's comment, respond by denigrating the blog as "destructive" and "hashkafically problematic." When OM points out your hypocracy in rather strong language, you are shocked (shocked!)by her attacks. I know you asked OM to "be gentle" when it was your "first time" but when does the grace period end?
And then you critizice her for her "too-quick assumption that I was part of a particular group." Ha! You, along with several others, appear simultaneously on this blog, all with "ortho" in your screen name (clever), do not so much as raise a peep for days when others in this group acknowledge Red Shul membership, and now your deny being part of this group? Was this all some incredible coincidence? Who exactly do you think you are fooling?
O, toilet bowl shaped friend of the Orthodox persuasion, just keep in mind that you attacked first.
I have a meeting soon so I won't get to Who's comments until later.
MOC: Yes, but if its MS, then you get to sit next to your wife, and go get drinks for her from time to time...pass the salt...little things.
Even more shalom bayis.
jameeel
You DO those types of things. wow. what a tzaddik..
(actually, you can do those things during the smorg. I always scope out the veggies for MHW while i'm pounding down the franks in blankets, if you know what I mean).
OM:
You have a quality blog. I'm always interested in what you have to say.
I'm with the commenters that said to exercise some comment control here. I'm not in NY, and have no clue what the controversy is, or even what the Red Shul is (or why a bunch of Orthodox Jews would be Communists, but that's a separate issue). But wading thru their inanities is becoming a chore!
jdub
'wouldn't it be possible, duing the times when all the men start circle-dancing, for women to circle-dance too'
I've seen that in many O environments, even where there isn't a mechitzah.
And I don't see anything wrong with this blog, either halachically or hashgafically. This blog owner seems particularly careful regarding the laws of lashan hara, which is not true for many supposedly frum blogs.
"my shuls melaveh malkah is SS. This is how I explain it to the women who complain:"
Speeches in a shul don't count.
The reception (and kiddushim on shabbos) are MS as they should always remain.
Wow OM, there must have been a lot of Whine at that dinner.
You guys are children, whoever you are. Orthomom's point here, that we should all try to rise above political infighting and name-calling, is lost on a group with your weak intellectual capacity. You also may have noticed that her blog is very popular, well before you came here she had very high readership.
"Maybe he also can't stand the way she puts down his friends on her blog and causes such a chilul hashem."
She needed to do no such thing. You guys put yourselves to shame with no extra help.
Who, I was composing a response to your 3:28am comment but then I saw your comment of this morning which caused me to choke on my reakfast. "[O]utrageous ad hominem attack"? "absurd[] attack[s]?" While your rhetoric is hot, your content is not. Keep in mind that this started with a completely unjustified attack by your buddy, OrthoT, on this blog. Her reply, although accusing him of hypocracy, was decidedly not ad-hominem, which means replying to a comment by attacking the person. Instead, she attacked the comments: "prurient and puerile inuueno-laden comments," "Learn to comment like human beings, and you are welcome to stick around. I challenge you to find me one." However, I admit that hurling accusations of "ad hominem attacks" is a good way to deflect when you realize that you stepped in the s***.
Hachibur haseh lo chibarti l’lameid l’vnei h’adam es asher lo yadoo, ellah l’haskirum es h’yadooa lahem k’var umipforsum etzlum pirsum gadol.
This blog, as are many others, is old. Krum, OM, do you think you have such deep thoughts with regards to Yarmulka wearing? Do you think you are the first person to rant about the mixed seating issue (or non issue)? Krum, your analysis on our wonderful community is nothing new (there have been arrogant creeps passing judgment on groups way before your time). Your self serving opinions on things are not new….V’ein Kol chadash tachas hashamesh. (on a side note – are you aware that R’ Yonason Eibeshitz wanted to do away with Tashlich, entirely, because of Taruvus?...nothing is new)
For you guys (mom) to sit there and bitch about society and decide what’s wrong with it, is more inappropriate than any innuendo laden comment that I’ve seen. Incidentally, while my comments, and I do admit this, were off color, they were subtle (okay only sometimes) innuendo that a pure person such as yourself should not have picked up on. Further, there is a difference between making eiver jokes and using the word penis….that my friend is tact.
As far as the Red Shul goes. Those of you who know me, know that I have serious, founded and most importantly, legitimate issues with OUR shul. However, my country right or wrong.
The red shul is comprised of people that come from extremely disparate backgrounds, and who for the most part manage to get along with each other. They do chessed, learn, and raise beautiful families. Can you poke fun and call them morons, turks and many other brilliant names…absolutely. But couldn’t you do the same with any place. Can you use names to refer to0 any of the five towns…absolutely! Can you do it about any shul you feel like….without a doubt.
So why don’t you sit in your torah book filled house and internalize some of the stuff you occasionally study. Keep doing your thing, which you obviously take way to seriously and I’ll do mine. We’re both wasting time and accomplishing nothing…..the only difference, that fact is not lost on me! Look at that…a totally innuendo free comment by me…wow I can do it.
Eiver and out!
Oops
Well, I didn't think you could respond to my post, but, in all fairness, it was OrthoT who first worked up fake indignation at imagined "ad hominem" slights, not you. You merely followed him down the black hole he jumped into.
The other option is to abandon your buddy, like the swift boat vets did to his buddy in 2004. Look, OrthoT already gave you an opening, implying that he is not part of you group. If he is abondoning you guys, you should have no problem doing the same.
Orthomom, your blog is great -- interesting, insightful, amusing and a pleasure to read. People who don't like it should simply not read it (and be concerned about their own halachic observance rather than someone elses!!!)
MOC: Sorry, I can't be tzaddik - since we don't have real shmorgs here in Israel.
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This is Anon Fisheater - some may recognize me from Krum's posts.
All I have to say is I always enjoy OrthoMom's posts - though it now gets even more exciting knowing she belongs to the Red Shul.
More importantly, with regard to "Who is Ortho's" comment at 3:23 am - you are RIGHT on the MONEY! It is always the people who don't fit in that bad mouth the red shul. It is always the weirdo's or people that just arent socially "there". I love the Red Shul - I love the "exclusive" factor of it and think that (most) people are good guys. I love the camradrie; poker games; BBQ's; Ruthie's; movies, everything. Anyone who bad mouths it is a LOSER who doesnt fit in. Go daven at the Young Israel Lawrence Cedarhurst young married minyan with all the other weirdos.
eiver, WHO INVITED YOU HERE?!?!?!?
Listen: if you don't think that my musings (or OM's) are interesting or insightful enough for you, than do something else!
And I re-read your comments from your previous post. You are right. Penis is way more tactful than your Beavis and Butthead style double-entendres.
Finally, I never denigrated the Red Shul on my blog or here (as opposed to you, who we all no know has "serious, founded and most importantly, legitimate issues" with the Red Shul, and expressed them to "the people that know" you).
Let’s analyze this great response.
**eiver, WHO INVITED YOU HERE?!?!?!?**
Don’t you mean to say “I know you are, but what am I” or something else from you playground days?
**Listen: if you don't think that my musings (or OM's) are interesting or insightful enough for you, than do something else!**
As I just wrote, I don’t find them insightful, but since I don’t have my own blog, I have to post my own musings somewhere, no?
**And I re-read your comments from your previous post. You are right. Penis is way more tactful than your Beavis and Butthead style double-entendres.**
Yet another mature response this one more similar to hmmm, lets see….”I’m rubber you’re glue…..”
**Finally, I never denigrated the Red Shul on my blog or here (as opposed to you, who we all no know has "serious, founded and most importantly, legitimate issues" with the Red Shul, and expressed them to "the people that know" you).**
And finally, If you re-read, as you like to do, my post, you will see that I never singled you out as a red shul attacker….
OK. I the spirit of conciliation expressed in Who's latest, I will attempt this comment without any hint of sarcasm.
Who, seriously. I feel like I made this point more than once today, but you continue not to address it. So I'll ask it as a question:
When did orthomom make an "ad hominem" attack on your friend?
Eiver, let me restate my points of my prior comment in declarative sentences, again, stripped of any sarcasm and attemtped cleverness:
1. If you have an issue with a blog post, then leave your view in comments. If, on the other hand, you take issue with the whole concept of bloggers espousing opinions about society on a blog, than don't read them.
2. I do not think that your sexual innuendo in the prior post was subtle or more tactful than the word penis.
3. It is true that you never "singled me out" as a red shul attacker, but fairly read, your comment was directed to two bloggers. And I'm one of them.
WHO's next? (I can't italicize either) Me, I guess. Your insights are, at times, refreshing but you seem to have appointed yourself the Don Corleone of the Blogsphere, and I for one don't remember taking an oath.
Leave Fisheater alone - he's just trying to fit in and show you he's part of the family. And OM, you're too smart to take the bait and resort to mudslinging, but quit the little miss innocent routine - it doesn't do you justice. Anyone who bristles at the idea of a woman's siddur surely has views that are inconsistent with traditional hashkafah, and, gasp, may even herself violate halacha now and again. Let's hear more free thinking, and less indelicate attacking. And Mom, let's take Eiver for what WE know he is: a little hard to swallow at times, but really a harmless appendage that can't control his need to pop up whenever the urge overcomes him. Just ignore him - he'll go away. (sincere apologies to all, but it was truly irresistable)
In that post, I referred to this blog itself as controversial.
And "destructive" and "haskafically problematic."
You forgot that.
Did anyone else read this comment by the guy who calls himself orthotricyclen?
"As for the comment about this blog being "anything but proper," there is more to being "proper" than using squeaky clean language in posts. Bashing neighborhood rabbanim, charities and other institutions can be vastly more destructive than the offhanded use of a double entendre. I'm not saying I disagree with OM's posts along these lines. I am merely pointing out that this blog was controversial (and hashkafically problematic) long before the last few days, double entendre "eivers" or not. Those who blog and post comments should do so with their eyes open."
That sounds like an unprovoked attack on Om to me. OT, you ARE a fool.
And with that, i will stop feeding the trolls.
I will be serious as well.
To comment on your response.
1) The second sentence, in my understanding, falls under the rules of the first sentence and therefore is a legitimate reason to respond to a post. I saw you posting on these pages and chose to take issue with your "Krum's Guide" post here, as it is more popular.
2) I respectfully disagree, it is more tactful - no different than network television censors (at least of earlier years) that allowed innuendo as a substitute for banned dialogue. And honestly I don't really believe that the subtle difference is lost on you.
3) You are right, and truth be told I was deliberately vague as to who I was directing that statement to. Again, that was because of your, in my opinion - and I'm not starting up - very shallow and inappropriate remarks in your Guide to the 5t's.
How is that for civility?
OrthoT, I am sure you wish you were more levelheaded in your comment. Dut the words are there. And there is no way you can deny it. When you regret something, the correct response is not making believe it never happened, but apologizing.
hate to interupt all the childish bickering, but back to a real issue: SS at dinners, weddings, etc. Personally, I hate it. I like to spend time with my husband, and do not enjoy having to go searching for him all the time on the other side of the wall. We live in a pretty MO town over here where 80% of the women in our shul dont cover their hair. Most of our events are MS. Here is the problem: big issue with flirting amongst the table sitters and we have a couple of divorces pending already, many of which involving other spouses. One of my sons maintains that our shul would not be in this horrible mess with it's members if we had more SS at events. What are your thoughts?
Following Krum's wonderful example, I will attempt to keep the highly inappropriate innuendo laden comments to a minimum.
I have but one question for you taboo. Do you know who screwface is? When you get that reference feel free to email me, I always like hearing the "you've got mail" message.
OM, do you have a way to generate an automatic signature line on each and every anonymous post (and lkwd guy posts) stating something like "stupid, childish, adolescent, blah, blah, blah…but,…). It would really save people a lot of time.
Wow. You don't spend much time around here if you accuse me of being Lkwdguy.
I have no problem whatsoever with your wife reciting birchas hagomel from the bimah, a Kiddush or the hospital, for that matter, but how can you say that the Siddur’s position “does not reflect normative practices?”
Open up a Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim and flip to Article 219. First, in Section 1, the Mishna B’rurah clearly states (subsection 1) that these b’rachos should be recited in front of 10 people, and it’s not proper for a woman to speak in front of men in this way.
You are dead wrong. I have asked many poskim - some considerably to the right of where I consider myself - and have been told to bench gomel in front of ten men by every one. Some said to do so from behind a mechitza or the next room, but every one said it would be better to say it myself instead of giving the task to my husband.
They are poskim and certainly not ashamed.....Who named names (R' Tam. Chofetz Chaim, and even the Mishna Berurah :)) why don't you?
The problem is that Artscroll is not using a consistent standard. There certainly are many, many opinions in support of women saying the bracha (see Aruch HaShulchan, Magen Avraham). Ordinarily, Artscroll's policy in situations where a tefillah is not universally accepted is to print it, and indicate in some manner that the practice is subject to dispute (e.g., "many congregations omit the following"). This approach respects the reader's autonomy and dignity as it gives him the opportunity to inquire with their Rav or figure out his minhag. By not printing the bracha, Artscroll is essentially telling women that they are unable of making that decision.
And it isn't a minority minhag. Maybe in certain circles it is not the minhag, but in many it most certainly is. Either Artscroll is making that decision for women, as Krum says, or they are simply uninterested in having their siddur used by anyone who is not part of a certain slice of Orthodoxy.
You conveniently excerpted only a portion of my post , and omitted the part where I CLEARLY indicated that my only issue was with Charlie’s denial about “normative practice.” The Siddur follows the Mishna B’rurah’s view. You and Charlie follow the other views which again, I CLEARLY acknowledged exist. Go up to the Torah – read from the Torah for all I care.
I read your comment. Normative halachic practice is absolutely to bench gomel. To indicate that it might be on the same level as your offer to "Go up to the Torah – read from the Torah for all I care" is, and I repeat, dead wrong.
Who, one that comes to mind is the pesukim printed next to each word of birchas cohanim. Mishna berura (if I recall correctly) says that they may not be read, yet it is still printed and the commentary gives a range of opinions.
OM’s siddur issue appears to be bizarre
So, do you retract?
Or are you waiting for OrthoT to get back so you can retract your offending comments together?
Let's start with this:
who:
OM’s siddur issue appears to be bizarre
OrthoT:
Bashing neighborhood rabbanim, charities and other institutions can be vastly more destructive than the offhanded use of a double entendre.
Bracket the text with html tags like this:
bold: [b]text[/b]
italics: [i]text[/i]
Use this "<" instead of brackets (if I used the correct characters above, blogger interpret the characters as HTML code).
What’s up with you and OM? You seem like a sensible guy but, in this regard, you’re just trying to defend a ridiculous position because it’s OM’s position. What’s blinding you?
Again. Read my post. It's one thing to note what the MB's position is. It's another to blind your readers from the fact that there are other normative positions. Especially where Artscroll generally gives a multiplicity of opinions where they exist (Birchas Cohanim being a prime example). The obvious reason is that Artscroll is trying to stay far away from any position that smacks of giving any autonomy to women. I can imagine why a woman would find that offensive.
What's bizarre? A group of people descending en masse on someone's blog to cause trouble. Did OM advocate of "boycott" of artscroll? All she said was:
"Two women were honored, and were given (drumroll) the Artscroll Women's Siddur as a gift. Nice gesture, but I've made my opinion known here on that particular publication. I'm not the biggest fan."
That's it. "Nice gesture...not the biggest fan." I don't see how anyone can possibly characterize that mildly expressed opinion as "bizarre." Yet, based on your comment, I don't think her position is that far from yours! And if you think that stating a position that is slightly too hot or cold for your taste is "bizarre" than I have another adjective for you: crazy.
I cannot believe this stupidity is still going on
My Mamma used to tell me..."you're arguing for the sake of arguing" I think Krum as a bagel just likes to hear the sound of his own Keyboard.
As for "Don Who" you're pretty good, initialy, but your no Al Pacino
Once again without the typo (everyone should have an ally :)
My Mamma used to tell me..."you're arguing for the sake of arguing" I think Krum as a bagel just likes to hear the sound of his own Keyboard.
As for "Don Who" you're pretty good, initially, but your no Al Pacino
Boy, and this used to be a nice peaceful blog! I have a couple of questions, the first because I'm not a resident of the Five Towns: What is the Red Shul?
And secondly - why is it wrong for Orthomom to express her opinions in her own blog? If you don't like it - don't read it. The rest of us don't feel the need to be "corrected" by your attacks on her.
Reading these comments makes me really glad I don't live in the NY metro area anymore. You guys sound like you haven't left high school yet.
Grow up and find something productive to do with your time.
Wow. I just got to this and all I can say is: "and heeeeeere comes...Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.
we want Moshiach now, yeah right. this is much more fun.
bashing, judging, name calling, flirting,
GREAT
I wish that the Orthofrauds would find something better to do instead of attacking Momof4's character and person.
Please don't let this clown stop you from blogging. The nature of this attacker/Orthowhoever is clearly filled filled with rage, selfishness, self-righteousness, and the desire to hurt someone as smart and interesting as the proprieter of this blog.
wow i heard about this in shul today but had to see it to believe it. glad i don't daven in the red shul if this is what passes for fun for you guys.
Why must people generalize? At worst you are talking about a handful of red shul members if not less. why label an entire shul based on the actions of a few people?
ortho's probably the only red shuler on this blog. those guys probably don't even know how to use computers.
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