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Wednesday, March 29, 2006

Dinner Musings

I had to bite the bullet and go to a certain dinner recently. My readers may recall me saying in the past that I try to attend as few of these types of things as possible, but this was a must. All in all, the evening was enjoyable. A few little observations:

1. The dinner was mixed seating. Finally. Between Yeshiva school dinners, weddings, and various other Tzedakah events, I tend to resent the fact that I get all dressed up, pay for a babysitter, and leave my kids kicking and screaming, on one of the few nights my husband gets home before my bedtime, only to have to bid him goodbye immediately upon arrival at our destination. It was really refreshing to actually eat dinner with him for once, even if it was a not-so-romantic candlelight dinner at a table for ten. From what I understand, only in recent years have all these Yeshiva dinners been separate seating. My daughter's school was apparently mixed until rather recently (still before my time though). And actually, Brooklyn Yeshiva Chaim Berlin's dinner is still mixed. Can you believe?

2. How many combinations of the same 30 phrases can people come up with for their dinner journal ads? "You are true role models for us all". "We are so proud of your accomplishments". "To all the truly deserving honorees". The journal chairpeople should just give out forms with blanks for the names and a few choices of generic terms, and the rest already filled in. You know like that fill-in-the-blank game children love to play in camp called mad libs - or in this case, ad libs.

3. Two women were honored, and were given (drumroll) the Artscroll Women's Siddur as a gift. Nice gesture, but I've made my opinion known here on that particular publication. I'm not the biggest fan.

4. There was dancing, but only for the men. Not that I'm big into the circle dances, but what are the women supposed to do while the men stamp around in a ring holding hands?

109 Comments:

Blogger GC (God's Child) said...

>>what are the women supposed to do while the men stamp around in a ring holding hands?

make them think you're talking about them.

9:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's wrong with the Artscroll Womens Siddur? I think its lovely. My son's yeshiva gave it out to some women at their dinner as a gift and I use it every day.

9:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And people wonder why there are so many socially inept young Orthodox singles. The sad part is that 98% of these women I'm being screened from couldn't get a rise out of me or any other man with a forklift.

10:50 PM  
Anonymous taboo said...

Sorry to hear about your Er . . Deficiency, anon, but it sounds to me like it's not the women who are to blame. Try some Levitra and check out some other website if it's a rise you're looking for. Or come to the next dinner. No disrespect intended, OrthoMom, but this perv needs to be put in his place.

11:06 PM  
Blogger Ayelet said...

I'd like to make a slight correction, if I may be so bold, coming from a family that has been attending Chaim Berlin dinners for decades. Chaim Berlin's dinner is only "mixed" for those who specifically request it. The majority of guests (certainly, the "Chaim Berliners") do sit separately. My own husband's yeshiva, Chofetz Chaim, has a similar set-up. There is separate seating at either end with mixed seating serving to separate the two. The mixed seating is for families and guests of the honorees or "older" members of the community. The yeshiva strongly discourages the kollel students from sitting in this mixed area. I think that's pretty reasonable policy although I do admit it would be nice to eat dinner with the hubbie for a change. What gets to me is that the cocktail preceding the dinner is so mixed that you feel like you're bumping into members of the opposite sex constantly. Where's the tzniut in that?

11:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yo bring up a very good point. How many times have we all heard that R' Moshe's wedding was mixed seating. Problem is, the world has changed. People think prurient thoughts, and entertain them, more than they did in the past. Case in point: the Red Shul crowd that seems to have taken over here in the comments. OM, you have never been anything but proper in your blog. But these guys are giving your shul and your neighborhood a bad name. Maybe in this case the dinner you mentioned in your post SHOULD have been separate.

11:26 PM  
Anonymous RSAnon said...

Blah, blah, blah, red shul sucks, blah, blah, blah. Why don't you develop a personality of your own instead of this pathetic bandwagon jumping, red shul bashing. The dinner was beautiful, our Rav is terrific, our honorees were honorable, and you're all just jealous of a frum, smart, witty, rather hot-looking bunch. Get a life, losers.

11:38 PM  
Blogger OrthoTricyclen said...

Anon of 11:26pm:

Here you go throwing stones and making accusations about an entire Shul and neighborhood. Apparently lashon hara and motzei shaim ra are just fine in your book, as long as we do so from our separate seats.

As for the comment about this blog being "anything but proper," there is more to being "proper" than using squeaky clean language in posts. Bashing neighborhood rabbanim, charities and other institutions can be vastly more destructive than the offhanded use of a double entendre. I'm not saying I disagree with OM's posts along these lines. I am merely pointing out that this blog was controversial (and hashkafically problematic) long before the last few days, double entendre "eivers" or not. Those who blog and post comments should do so with their eyes open.

To all: if you have a point to make, try to do so without casting aspersions on a Shul or community. Your point will be stronger and you won't look like a fool in the process.

12:03 AM  
Blogger MUST Gum Addict said...

I tend to resent the fact that I get all dressed up, pay for a babysitter, and leave my kids kicking and screaming, on one of the few nights my husband gets home before my bedtime, only to have to bid him goodbye immediately upon arrival at our destination. It was really refreshing to actually eat dinner with him for once, even if it was a not-so-romantic candlelight dinner at a table for ten.

If it were that important to you (or your husband for that matter) to spend a nice evening out together, wouldn't you arrange such an evening on your own? Why do you feel it is necessary to have a shul or tzedakah function conform to your personal wants or needs? I'm not disagreeing with you here, but the purpose of such events isn't so that you can get face time with your husband -- rather to show support for that organization.

You don't even have to go that crazy -- there are plenty enough food establishments within walking distance of your home.

How many combinations of the same 30 phrases can people come up with for their dinner journal ads? "You are true role models for us all". "We are so proud of your accomplishments". "To all the truly deserving honorees".

The phrase "I love you" is repeated ad nauseum between husband and wife (hopefully) and yet the words are still meaningful on some level. As corny as it sounds in a journal, these 30 same phrases mean more than the words themselves can describe. Besides, what else would we read during the speeches?

Two women were honored, and were given (drumroll) the Artscroll Women's Siddur as a gift.

It was nice that those women were acknowledged. Might I ask what you might consider a decent gift for such an honor to be?

There was dancing, but only for the men. Not that I'm big into the circle dances, but what are the women supposed to do while the men stamp around in a ring holding hands?

The guy singing was annoying. I joined the dancing for a bit only because I felt bad that so few men were dancing, but really, the majority of the men were not dancing at all. Are you suggesting that women should have been dancing on the other side of a mechitza? Or are you suggesting that since you never get a chance to dance with your husband because he's never home that the shul function also have mixed dancing for your pleasure as well?

2:08 AM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Continuatin of prior OrthMom string (more relevant to this entry)

*********************************
The plot thickens, Krum. Sounds like we know each other.

Despite the fact that you flip-flopped, you seem to be an informed, level-headed, well intentioned guy, and your conciliatory response is much appreciated. In fact, your point is almost an excellent one, and that’s precisely why I left chewy-land last week. My comments, although Talmudic-based, were admittedly made with a view towards being ambiguously trashy and perhaps tasteless, which ultimately led to the same mudslinging that I mentioned earlier. But that’s me, and the comments that I make are MINE, not the comments of a larger group of people. Am I a bad reflection on the Red Shul? Possibly, but overall doubtful. But, in any event, neither you nor any (other) self-righteous blogger should use my words to pass judgment on an entire Shul and its members.

(By the way, you should rethink your logically flawed yarmulke analogy – assuming you are not a Red Shul member, of course.)

For you, Krum, it’s probably not about bitterness, but for most “anons,” it’s all about their inability to gain social acceptance, possibly because they are simply not likeable. And that is not a generalization; it is a direct attack on the anons who attempt to seize the opportunity to vent their foolish frustrations through nonsensical anti-red remarks. Look in the mirror, guys, and if the picture ain’t pretty, try shifting some of the blame away from the barn (or the band camp) and onto yourselves. If the shteibel will serve a remedy to all of your problems, we wish you all the best, it's a great Shul (and any other Shul for that matter).

So, Krum, now that the dust has settled, all I ask is that you choose your words more carefully, even when typing on your blackberry. We’ve all multi-tasked when driving; trust me, the experience can be both productive and negative implication free at the same time.

I hope your meeting went well. The Wedding was nice. Separate seating, Ma, but the women were dancin’ all night long.

You could have said more about the gala dinner. “All in all, the evening was enjoyable.” That’s the best you got?

The dinner was a huge success (not self-serving – I took no role in this), the journal was exceptional (notwithstanding a few minor typos), and months of hard work and effort were expended by extremely busy people who sacrificed of their time for the benefit of the Tzibur (in the 5 Towns? Without any preferential Principal treatment? No way). Send me an e-mail, Mother Bee; I’ll make sure you have a role in the dinner journal next year. Unless, of course, you’re too busy to involve yourself in Shul or communal matters.

So what do you think, is Jameel a srugi or a floppy hatter? Either way, I’m sure we’ll all be more than willing to assist in the move to Teaneck.

Finally, as a suggestion to Taboo, Eiver, 907, OrthoTri and the rest of the gang, applying the above-mentioned flawed analogy in a logical manner, we should all (assuming, with respect to Taboo, that Taboo is in fact a member) consider cleaning up our perceived smut and, as OrthoTri insightfully remarked, leave the real smut for our predecessors. We are fully capable of offering the public our invaluable opinions while having a good time, without the need to resort to not-so-subtle (incestuous? not sure) innuendos

I accept full responsibility for the direction of the posts until now but, going forward, proceed at your own risk (and the implicit risk you’ve (i.e., as a member yarmulke wearer) have accepted on the 145 other families (i.e., the rest of the yarmulke wearers) in the Red Shul).

3:23 AM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

WIO: I'm quite happy at the Muqata, thanks!

Actually, there are plenty of great communities here in EY for you to move to, though it can't be nearly as fascinating as reading about Five Towns!

PS: The floppy hat disappeared years ago...

4:10 AM  
Blogger Pragmatician said...

4. do what they would do if the event wasn't mixed.

5:40 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

To all: if you have a point to make, try to do so without casting aspersions on a Shul or community. Your point will be stronger and you won't look like a fool in the process.

I am amused at your hypocrisy. You say the above, directly after you said:

As for the comment about this blog being "anything but proper," there is more to being "proper" than using squeaky clean language in posts. Bashing neighborhood rabbanim, charities and other institutions can be vastly more destructive than the offhanded use of a double entendre. I'm not saying I disagree with OM's posts along these lines. I am merely pointing out that this blog was controversial (and hashkafically problematic) long before the last few days, double entendre "eivers" or not. Those who blog and post comments should do so with their eyes open.

I'm sorry Orthotri, but you certainly are the fool here.

You know what, you guys came over here, and invaded my comments with prurient and puerile inuueno-laden comments. I tried to completely ignore it, hoping you would bore of it with no attention. Enough. Seriously. Learn to comment like human beings, and you are welcome to stick around. Otherwise, find a new blog to populate. Seriously.

7:21 AM  
Anonymous Bored Blogger in the 5Towns said...

Dear AskShifra,

I have a big problem. I am a blogger who tries to post a new item on my blog at least once a day. For a long time, it was fun, interesting work -- especially because I maintained my focus on family, community, politics, and other topics that interest me.

Although I didn't always agree with the people who left comments, for the most part they were interesting and somewhat intelligent.

But then, just a few weeks ago, a bunch of schmucks discovered my blog and started leaving inane, poorly written, and unbearably long comments.

Making matters worse, not only were these comments pointless and offtopic, but they were highly contradictory in logic and at times highly offensive.

My question is, should I kill my blog because it's become a waste of my time, or should I quit my job and devote my days to fighting these mindless morons and showing them how moronic and mindless they truly are. Or should I just get over it?

Please respond soon. I'm so bored...

Sincerely,

Bored Blogger in the Five Towns

7:42 AM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'What's wrong with the Artscroll Womens Siddur? '

My wife was looking forward to it. Then, on the very first bracha, she saw "Modeh ani" rather than "modah ani". Women's siddur?

It contains many halachic positions that simply do not reflect normative practice. For example, it says women should not say bircat hagomel. Chas v'shalom that they discourage fulfilment of a mitzvah! And in every community I've been a part of, women say that bracha after having a baby, after being released from the hospital after a serious illness, and after travelling across the Atlantic. Sometimes it is said at the bimah during the regular services, sometimes at kiddush, and sometimes at home. I could go on, but I think you get the drift. She does not use it for tefillah any more.

Regarding mixed seating, visit any old Orthodox shul (more than 50 years old) in the US and see if you find any photographs of their annual shul dinners. I've never seen such a photograph in which there was separate seating. It is clear the mixed seating was a strong minhag of American Jews and it is inappropriate to try to change that minhag. In addition, Rabbi Y. H. Henkin has poskened that it is actually a mitzvah in some circumstances to seat single people together:

http://www.yasharbooks.com/2004/12/seating-arrangements-at-weddings.html

Chas v'shalom that Jews might meet, get married, and create more Jewish children!

I would add that my wife and I are attending a wedding tonight in Williamsburg. We are taking our cell phones as that may be the only way we will be able to communicate with each other.

7:45 AM  
Blogger OrthoTricyclen said...

Interesting, OM. I respected you before this post. Not sure why you have resorted to ad hominem attacks -- no substance in your post, just name-calling. Maybe I hit a raw nerve by stating the obvious? Face it, OM. If you were to ask any Rav whether it is "proper" to do what you are doing on this blog, he would tell you to cease. I think you are smart and you of course know this, and that this realization has generated the first idiotic response I have seen from you yet. Finally, "you guys?" How do you know who I am, where I daven, etc. This is just my second post on your blog. I don't think a person has to daven at the Red Shul (or even be Jewish) to realize the basic principle that it is wrong to slander an entire community or community institutions in public. I'm sorry you had to get personal. It does not say much for you or this blog.

7:50 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

OT, the only one here with ad hominem attacks is you. I said "you guys", I'm not sure how that means anything but that. I am not slandering an entire community, that is clearly your defensiveness showing. I am slandering a group of commenters, who showed up en masse, clearly to banter childishly with each other. Get a room, guys.

8:00 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Charlie:

I agree with you. I don't like it for many of the reasons you mentioned. Also, to be petty about it, I don't like the white leather cover.

8:02 AM  
Blogger OrthoTricyclen said...

OM: calling someone a "fool" and a "hypocrite" without much else is an ad hominem attack. The "you guys" comment was not an ad hominem attack, but was directed at your too-quick assumption that I was part of a particular group. As for the "get a room" comment, I guess you are not immune to double entendres either.

8:06 AM  
Anonymous Fed Up said...

You know what, you guys came over here, and invaded my comments with prurient and puerile inuueno-laden comments. I tried to completely ignore it, hoping you would bore of it with no attention. Enough. Seriously. Learn to comment like human beings, and you are welcome to stick around. Otherwise, find a new blog to populate. Seriously.

Hear, hear! This is a serious blog. It's clear to me, and I live in Israel, that all of you "Orthos" came here together with some kind of plan to hijack OM's blog. You are clearly enjoying yourselves, but no one else is enjoying your not so witty repartee. Make yourselves a blog.

8:07 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

OM: calling someone a "fool" and a "hypocrite" without much else is an ad hominem attack.

Ok, let me do this slowly and maybe you'll understand. You called your little pals "fools" well before I ever addressed you, because you don't like the fact that they are casting aspersions on someone at the same time they make a point. Yet, somehow, in the very same comment, is OK for you to make a point defending your innuendo-laden comments by criticizing my blog. The name-calling on my part was entirely justified. You are hypocritical and juvenile. The hypocrisy is evident. And all one has to do is scroll down to your dumb little conversation on another comment thread to prove the juvenile behavior.

8:14 AM  
Blogger OrthoTricyclen said...

OM: So I guess I should respond even more slowly than you did so you begin to understand. I used the word fool to describe those who engage in personal attacks against others when making a point that could have been made without resorting to such lows. I didn't just say, in Mr. T-like anger, "hey, you are a fool." Your silence on my other point -- that this blog is not in accord with hashkafa and any Rav would agree -- I will take as tacit agreement. If you choose to respond, please try not to be rude (or use any more double entendres; I am easily offended).

8:23 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Your silence on my other point -- that this blog is not in accord with hashkafa and any Rav would agree -- I will take as tacit agreement. If you choose to respond, please try not to be rude

Actually, you might be surprised to know that you are incorrect. I am extremely careful about what I put up here, my long-time readers are aware and can attest to the fact that I have sought out Rabbinic guidance after posting certain posts, and have taken some down. I do not do this with a guilty heart. I am comfortable with what I put up here. If a Rabbinic leader stands up and makes a statement at a community dinner, or sends around an email to enough people who talked publicly about it that I heard about it, or a local organization puts an ad in a paper with a circulation of thousands, I have nothing to ber ashamed of.

Also:

this blog is not in accord with hashkafa

Um...not sure how anything can be in accordance with hashkafah. Maybe the word you are looking for is "Halacha"?

8:33 AM  
Blogger OrthoTricyclen said...

OM: Have to run for the day. Enjoyed our discussion. As for your last comment, strike "accordance with hashkafah" and insert "in accordance with the hashkafic principles espoused by the rav you turn to for guidance." Have a nice day.

8:43 AM  
Blogger MUST Gum Addict said...

Also, to be petty about it, I don't like the white leather cover.

Now that's funny. When I bought my first set of Artscroll machzorim (for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur), I bought the white leather version.

9:20 AM  
Blogger StepIma said...

OM, sorry you have to deal with these trolls... hopefully another blogger will post something else they can all disagree with and they'll all go chasing after the new shiny thing as soon as possible...

Meanwhile, am I missing something, or wouldn't it be possible, duing the times when all the men start circle-dancing, for women to circle-dance too (should any be inclined)? If there's a mechitza, then definitely over on their side, and if not, then on the far side of the room if it's mixed seating (men would certainly give way to get as far the heck away as possible from such a horrible sight!) ... even a makeshift barrier could be devised that's high enough halachically by moving chairs, the same way they clear a dance floor -- am I wrong?

It's a simcha. If dancing is part of the celebrations, and women actually expressed an interest, you can believe that in time accomodations would begin to be made. Personally, I think women sit around because they don't want to dance themselves. And any who might, don't want to make the first move out of fear of being branded with the dreaded "F" word.

9:25 AM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Wow, Ma, someone woke up and flipped out. You are completely out of line, particularly in light of my 3:23am post. I tried to be nice, but you clearly want to play hardball. Your outrageous ad hominem attack on OT was even more defensive than my original post about my Shul mudslinging frustration (and at least I had the decency to acknowledge my defensiveness). Obviously, you are guilt-ridden beyond your breaking point about the destructive nature of your blog and have chosen to take it out on bloggers commenting “with prurient and puerile innuendo-laden comments.”

Let me be clear: The only thing puerile around here is this blog's author and her motives for blogging in the first place. You obviously have the need to fill a gaping void in your life, and instead of dressing up and going out with your husband (as Must suggested), this has become your pathetic lifeline. In light of that, OT, it is quite understandable that OM would resort to her “puerile” ad hominem attacks upon realizing the hypocrisy of her blog, i.e., her entire existence. OM has simply proven to be another “pick and choose” Jew, who will adopt a holier-than-though attitude about what she deems “inappropriate,” yet facilitate wrongful speech and divisiveness within a wonderful community. Don’t get me wrong – I am not lecturing you on your sins as I’m right with you in that department, but do yourself a favor and drop the paternalistic BS.

You claim to have “completely ignored” us “guys.” All one has to do is scroll down to your previous posts to see that’s just simply not true. The only post you “chose” to completely ignore is my message posted at 3:23am, which specifically preempted your entire rant, making it all the more obvious that you have ulterior motives for attacking OT. You also ignored certain comments - not for brush-off purposes, but rather to continue the veil of secrecy and protect your precious identity.

Now that you’ve opened up the floodgates, if there’s any lecture to be given, or ad hominem attacks to be made, here it is:

Learn to live your life like a human being, Ortho. Instead of spending hours of wasteful and unproductive time giving your thoughts to total strangers, do something productive with your talents. Spend more time with your kids; focus a bit more on your husband; do some community service; help out more with your Shul; or get a job for more than two hours a day. I have plenty of projects for you if you’re bored (none of them include “getting a room,” as you would so crassly comment). Or, of course, blog like a human being an do not absurdly attack message posters.

So, whether or not I’m “welcome to stick around,” I’m not goin’ anywhere. I will continue to lead my very productive life, while regularly reminding myself of your sad and pathetic existence by monitoring your blog.

Seriously.

9:44 AM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Orthomom: I'm sorry to see that all these 5T (?) OrthoMonsters have infested your blog.

Can't they get a life? There must be 70 million other blogs to bother, and they choose yours?

Worst case - turn on comment moderation till they get bored and leave.

Think of them as kosher-style Spam ;-)

10:21 AM  
Blogger LkwdGuy said...

1. CB's dinner has only a few mixed tables, mostly the families of the honorees.

2. BMG (Lakewood) at their last dinner actually had a fill in the blank ad. You were able to choose from five or six options and to fill in a name.

Regarding the trolls that have nothing better to do with their time, don't let them get to you. Anyone that has been following this blog for any amount of time will see that the posts are always interesting, well thought out and within proper bounds.

10:30 AM  
Blogger MoChassid said...

my shuls melaveh malkah is SS. This is how I explain it to the women who complain:

If it were mixed, you would be talking to your girlfriends and your husbands would be talking to their guy friends all night. You each would be ignoring the other (because that is what actually happens, l'maisa). At the end of the night, you'd be upset that your husband ignored you and there would be a lack of shalom bayis. With SS, the same eact thing happens but when you get home, there are no tainas and everyone is happy. Shalom bayis prevails.

10:43 AM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

OT, let me get this straight. Orthomom posts several uncontroversial thoughts about her shul dinner (I mean, do you think that mixed seating is a bad thing or that shul dinner ad copy is brilliant and inventive?). You, ostensibly in resonse to Anon's comment, respond by denigrating the blog as "destructive" and "hashkafically problematic." When OM points out your hypocracy in rather strong language, you are shocked (shocked!)by her attacks. I know you asked OM to "be gentle" when it was your "first time" but when does the grace period end?

And then you critizice her for her "too-quick assumption that I was part of a particular group." Ha! You, along with several others, appear simultaneously on this blog, all with "ortho" in your screen name (clever), do not so much as raise a peep for days when others in this group acknowledge Red Shul membership, and now your deny being part of this group? Was this all some incredible coincidence? Who exactly do you think you are fooling?

O, toilet bowl shaped friend of the Orthodox persuasion, just keep in mind that you attacked first.

I have a meeting soon so I won't get to Who's comments until later.

10:53 AM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

MOC: Yes, but if its MS, then you get to sit next to your wife, and go get drinks for her from time to time...pass the salt...little things.

Even more shalom bayis.

10:55 AM  
Anonymous mochassid said...

jameeel

You DO those types of things. wow. what a tzaddik..

(actually, you can do those things during the smorg. I always scope out the veggies for MHW while i'm pounding down the franks in blankets, if you know what I mean).

11:24 AM  
Anonymous jdub said...

OM:

You have a quality blog. I'm always interested in what you have to say.

I'm with the commenters that said to exercise some comment control here. I'm not in NY, and have no clue what the controversy is, or even what the Red Shul is (or why a bunch of Orthodox Jews would be Communists, but that's a separate issue). But wading thru their inanities is becoming a chore!

jdub

11:38 AM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'wouldn't it be possible, duing the times when all the men start circle-dancing, for women to circle-dance too'

I've seen that in many O environments, even where there isn't a mechitzah.

And I don't see anything wrong with this blog, either halachically or hashgafically. This blog owner seems particularly careful regarding the laws of lashan hara, which is not true for many supposedly frum blogs.

11:39 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"my shuls melaveh malkah is SS. This is how I explain it to the women who complain:"

Speeches in a shul don't count.

The reception (and kiddushim on shabbos) are MS as they should always remain.

12:12 PM  
Anonymous Rocko said...

Wow OM, there must have been a lot of Whine at that dinner.

12:39 PM  
Blogger orthomess said...

OM,

Your posts on this subject are upsetting to say the least. I have read your blog periodically (check the site meter) and am absolutely horrified by your apparant lack of human respect for people not to mention how many halachos and averios that your blog is causing. Do yourself a favor and SHUT IT DOWN and please open up a new blog as "Conservadoxmom". You will do the world justice. How many worlds are you destroying by what you view as seemingly playful bantor.

12:46 PM  
Blogger glen roth said...

Must
Your 2:08 comment was great. Ortho must really be jealous of how "you guy's" find time for your wives and she has to go to a shul dinner just to spend time with her husband. Maybe he also can't stand the way she puts down his friends on her blog and causes such a chilul hashem.

1:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You guys are children, whoever you are. Orthomom's point here, that we should all try to rise above political infighting and name-calling, is lost on a group with your weak intellectual capacity. You also may have noticed that her blog is very popular, well before you came here she had very high readership.

1:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Maybe he also can't stand the way she puts down his friends on her blog and causes such a chilul hashem."

She needed to do no such thing. You guys put yourselves to shame with no extra help.

1:31 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Who, I was composing a response to your 3:28am comment but then I saw your comment of this morning which caused me to choke on my reakfast. "[O]utrageous ad hominem attack"? "absurd[] attack[s]?" While your rhetoric is hot, your content is not. Keep in mind that this started with a completely unjustified attack by your buddy, OrthoT, on this blog. Her reply, although accusing him of hypocracy, was decidedly not ad-hominem, which means replying to a comment by attacking the person. Instead, she attacked the comments: "prurient and puerile inuueno-laden comments," "Learn to comment like human beings, and you are welcome to stick around. I challenge you to find me one." However, I admit that hurling accusations of "ad hominem attacks" is a good way to deflect when you realize that you stepped in the s***.

2:21 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

*****"I won't chalk your misconstruing of my comment to defensiveness but rather to the fact that you must be running out to a wedding and didn't give my comment as careful a read as you ordinarily would."*******

Krum:

I won’t chalk your overly-weak Ortho-Defense to your lack of allegiance to the Orth, but rather to the fact that you choked on your breakfast. Called Hatzalah?

Looking forward to your original composition in response to my 3:28am comment. And please, watch your language, the reputation of Krums around the world are at stake…

2:50 PM  
Anonymous OrthoEIVER said...

Hachibur haseh lo chibarti l’lameid l’vnei h’adam es asher lo yadoo, ellah l’haskirum es h’yadooa lahem k’var umipforsum etzlum pirsum gadol.

This blog, as are many others, is old. Krum, OM, do you think you have such deep thoughts with regards to Yarmulka wearing? Do you think you are the first person to rant about the mixed seating issue (or non issue)? Krum, your analysis on our wonderful community is nothing new (there have been arrogant creeps passing judgment on groups way before your time). Your self serving opinions on things are not new….V’ein Kol chadash tachas hashamesh. (on a side note – are you aware that R’ Yonason Eibeshitz wanted to do away with Tashlich, entirely, because of Taruvus?...nothing is new)

For you guys (mom) to sit there and bitch about society and decide what’s wrong with it, is more inappropriate than any innuendo laden comment that I’ve seen. Incidentally, while my comments, and I do admit this, were off color, they were subtle (okay only sometimes) innuendo that a pure person such as yourself should not have picked up on. Further, there is a difference between making eiver jokes and using the word penis….that my friend is tact.

As far as the Red Shul goes. Those of you who know me, know that I have serious, founded and most importantly, legitimate issues with OUR shul. However, my country right or wrong.

The red shul is comprised of people that come from extremely disparate backgrounds, and who for the most part manage to get along with each other. They do chessed, learn, and raise beautiful families. Can you poke fun and call them morons, turks and many other brilliant names…absolutely. But couldn’t you do the same with any place. Can you use names to refer to0 any of the five towns…absolutely! Can you do it about any shul you feel like….without a doubt.

So why don’t you sit in your torah book filled house and internalize some of the stuff you occasionally study. Keep doing your thing, which you obviously take way to seriously and I’ll do mine. We’re both wasting time and accomplishing nothing…..the only difference, that fact is not lost on me! Look at that…a totally innuendo free comment by me…wow I can do it.

Eiver and out!
Oops

4:01 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Well, I didn't think you could respond to my post, but, in all fairness, it was OrthoT who first worked up fake indignation at imagined "ad hominem" slights, not you. You merely followed him down the black hole he jumped into.

The other option is to abandon your buddy, like the swift boat vets did to his buddy in 2004. Look, OrthoT already gave you an opening, implying that he is not part of you group. If he is abondoning you guys, you should have no problem doing the same.

4:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orthomom, your blog is great -- interesting, insightful, amusing and a pleasure to read. People who don't like it should simply not read it (and be concerned about their own halachic observance rather than someone elses!!!)

4:16 PM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

MOC: Sorry, I can't be tzaddik - since we don't have real shmorgs here in Israel.

4:16 PM  
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4:23 PM  
Anonymous orthooverachiever said...

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4:27 PM  
Anonymous orthobore said...

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4:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is Anon Fisheater - some may recognize me from Krum's posts.

All I have to say is I always enjoy OrthoMom's posts - though it now gets even more exciting knowing she belongs to the Red Shul.

More importantly, with regard to "Who is Ortho's" comment at 3:23 am - you are RIGHT on the MONEY! It is always the people who don't fit in that bad mouth the red shul. It is always the weirdo's or people that just arent socially "there". I love the Red Shul - I love the "exclusive" factor of it and think that (most) people are good guys. I love the camradrie; poker games; BBQ's; Ruthie's; movies, everything. Anyone who bad mouths it is a LOSER who doesnt fit in. Go daven at the Young Israel Lawrence Cedarhurst young married minyan with all the other weirdos.

4:28 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

eiver, WHO INVITED YOU HERE?!?!?!?

Listen: if you don't think that my musings (or OM's) are interesting or insightful enough for you, than do something else!

And I re-read your comments from your previous post. You are right. Penis is way more tactful than your Beavis and Butthead style double-entendres.

Finally, I never denigrated the Red Shul on my blog or here (as opposed to you, who we all no know has "serious, founded and most importantly, legitimate issues" with the Red Shul, and expressed them to "the people that know" you).

4:39 PM  
Blogger orthosnore said...

Hey girls...now you've got your very own place to muck up. Enjoy!!!

http://orthosnore.blogspot.com

4:43 PM  
Anonymous orthoeiver said...

Let’s analyze this great response.

**eiver, WHO INVITED YOU HERE?!?!?!?**

Don’t you mean to say “I know you are, but what am I” or something else from you playground days?

**Listen: if you don't think that my musings (or OM's) are interesting or insightful enough for you, than do something else!**

As I just wrote, I don’t find them insightful, but since I don’t have my own blog, I have to post my own musings somewhere, no?

**And I re-read your comments from your previous post. You are right. Penis is way more tactful than your Beavis and Butthead style double-entendres.**

Yet another mature response this one more similar to hmmm, lets see….”I’m rubber you’re glue…..”

**Finally, I never denigrated the Red Shul on my blog or here (as opposed to you, who we all no know has "serious, founded and most importantly, legitimate issues" with the Red Shul, and expressed them to "the people that know" you).**

And finally, If you re-read, as you like to do, my post, you will see that I never singled you out as a red shul attacker….

5:18 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

For the record, although Anon Fisheater indicated that I am “RIGHT on the MONEY,” I cannot stress enough (not without figuring out how to italicize on this damn blog thing) how strongly I disagree with much of his post.

(As an aside, I do agree that -- until this morning -- I enjoyed OM -- and had much respect for her opinions and entries. But her attack on my friend (yes, my friend, whether or not he is part of a "group") was unwarranted, and deserved an e-spanking (no, mudslingers, that's not an innuendo). In fairness, I believe OM owes OT an apology, and then (and only then) I owe OM an apology. OM, Krum, OT, Eiver and the rest of us (sorry if I omitted anyone’s name – I don’t even know who is and is not part of the “group.”) would probably get along very nicely in the real world (ask Must – he’ll tell it to you straight). It’s a shame this blog is cloaked with secrecy.

Now to the specifics of Fisheater’s comments:

“It is always the people who don't fit in that bad mouth the Red Shul. It is always the weirdo's or people that just arent socially "there"….”

Disgruntled members exist in every Shul. In fact, if you read Must’s history lessons, you’ll find that the Red Shul began as a spinoff of disgruntled Shteible members. Everyone needs to feel like Norm from Cheers from time to time and, to accomplish that, needs to find other people with similar backgrounds, beliefs, etc. Yes, there are community members who left the Red Shul for lack of Norm-fuzziness feelings. And yes, a subset of those people do not recognize the sociological reasons for these clashes and, therefore, express their displeasure in the strange ways. But I don’t believe that these people are “weirdos” or not socially “there” (regrettably, and yes I’m anticipating the flip-flop comments, I used the words “not likable,” but hope this post clarifies what was meant by that phrase).

“I love the Red Shul - I love the "exclusive" factor of it and think that (most) people are good guys”

I agree, other than the “exclusive” part. I’ve been davening in the Red Shul for 9 years, and never thought of it as exclusive. New members join all the time and feel welcome. Most families have an eclectic group of friends. In general, everybody interacts with each other with the same common goal of effectively growing the Shul - spiritually and structurally. If that means we’re exclusive, then it’s just semantics and I’ll accept the compliment.

“I love the camradrie; poker games; BBQ's; Ruthie's; movies, everything.”

The camaraderie is certainly nice, I’ve never actually attended a poker game (not a gambler), but there’s no denying that they exist, and the Ruthie’s and movies references are completely lost on me (are Ruthie’s and Green Acres/Sunrise/Malverne, etc. now also “exclusive” to Red Shul members?).


“Anyone who bad mouths it is a LOSER who doesnt fit in.”

Whoa. Relax. Let’s just leave it as anyone who “bad-mouths” ANY Shul is probably acting improperly.

“Go daven at the Young Israel Lawrence Cedarhurst young married minyan with all the other weirdos.”

Huh? Other than the “Rabbi” at YILC, everyone else seems perfectly normal and nice. You lose all credibility by labeling any class of persons as “weirdos.”

Krum – I think we’re squared away on all issues (other than the fact that you’re messing with my friends, but they’re doing a fine job fighting their own battles). Too bad I can’t allocate more time to the Blogsphere – it’s nice in here.

OK, mudslingers, who’s next? But something REAL, please. Don’t waste everyone’s time with general junk.

5:24 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

OK. I the spirit of conciliation expressed in Who's latest, I will attempt this comment without any hint of sarcasm.

Who, seriously. I feel like I made this point more than once today, but you continue not to address it. So I'll ask it as a question:

When did orthomom make an "ad hominem" attack on your friend?

Eiver, let me restate my points of my prior comment in declarative sentences, again, stripped of any sarcasm and attemtped cleverness:

1. If you have an issue with a blog post, then leave your view in comments. If, on the other hand, you take issue with the whole concept of bloggers espousing opinions about society on a blog, than don't read them.

2. I do not think that your sexual innuendo in the prior post was subtle or more tactful than the word penis.

3. It is true that you never "singled me out" as a red shul attacker, but fairly read, your comment was directed to two bloggers. And I'm one of them.

5:45 PM  
Anonymous taboo said...

WHO's next? (I can't italicize either) Me, I guess. Your insights are, at times, refreshing but you seem to have appointed yourself the Don Corleone of the Blogsphere, and I for one don't remember taking an oath.
Leave Fisheater alone - he's just trying to fit in and show you he's part of the family. And OM, you're too smart to take the bait and resort to mudslinging, but quit the little miss innocent routine - it doesn't do you justice. Anyone who bristles at the idea of a woman's siddur surely has views that are inconsistent with traditional hashkafah, and, gasp, may even herself violate halacha now and again. Let's hear more free thinking, and less indelicate attacking. And Mom, let's take Eiver for what WE know he is: a little hard to swallow at times, but really a harmless appendage that can't control his need to pop up whenever the urge overcomes him. Just ignore him - he'll go away. (sincere apologies to all, but it was truly irresistable)

6:02 PM  
Blogger OrthoTricyclen said...

I'm back.

Just to be clear about how this all started, I posted a response to anon of 11:26pm, asking anon to refrain from casting stones at community shuls etc. In that post, I referred to this blog itself as controversial. OrthoMom responded with a direct attack on me -- not on the issue -- calling me a fool and a hypocrite. I believe OrthoMom thought my post was directed at her when it wasn't, but the response was uncalled for all the same. Then ensued a back and forth between me and OM in which, inter alia, she asked the "guys" to refrain from using innuendoes while telling me to "get a room." Finally, in response to my point that this blog does not conform either to halacha or hashkafic principles, OM asserted that she has consulted with a Rav regarding "certain posts."

Cum on everybody, enough innuendoes.

Bye all.

6:11 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

In that post, I referred to this blog itself as controversial.

And "destructive" and "haskafically problematic."

You forgot that.

6:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did anyone else read this comment by the guy who calls himself orthotricyclen?

"As for the comment about this blog being "anything but proper," there is more to being "proper" than using squeaky clean language in posts. Bashing neighborhood rabbanim, charities and other institutions can be vastly more destructive than the offhanded use of a double entendre. I'm not saying I disagree with OM's posts along these lines. I am merely pointing out that this blog was controversial (and hashkafically problematic) long before the last few days, double entendre "eivers" or not. Those who blog and post comments should do so with their eyes open."


That sounds like an unprovoked attack on Om to me. OT, you ARE a fool.

And with that, i will stop feeding the trolls.

6:17 PM  
Anonymous orthoEiver said...

I will be serious as well.

To comment on your response.

1) The second sentence, in my understanding, falls under the rules of the first sentence and therefore is a legitimate reason to respond to a post. I saw you posting on these pages and chose to take issue with your "Krum's Guide" post here, as it is more popular.

2) I respectfully disagree, it is more tactful - no different than network television censors (at least of earlier years) that allowed innuendo as a substitute for banned dialogue. And honestly I don't really believe that the subtle difference is lost on you.

3) You are right, and truth be told I was deliberately vague as to who I was directing that statement to. Again, that was because of your, in my opinion - and I'm not starting up - very shallow and inappropriate remarks in your Guide to the 5t's.

How is that for civility?

6:20 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

OrthoT, I am sure you wish you were more levelheaded in your comment. Dut the words are there. And there is no way you can deny it. When you regret something, the correct response is not making believe it never happened, but apologizing.

6:20 PM  
Blogger MoChassid said...

can't we all get along. And, by the way, the weirdos are not at YILC; they're at my shul

6:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hate to interupt all the childish bickering, but back to a real issue: SS at dinners, weddings, etc. Personally, I hate it. I like to spend time with my husband, and do not enjoy having to go searching for him all the time on the other side of the wall. We live in a pretty MO town over here where 80% of the women in our shul dont cover their hair. Most of our events are MS. Here is the problem: big issue with flirting amongst the table sitters and we have a couple of divorces pending already, many of which involving other spouses. One of my sons maintains that our shul would not be in this horrible mess with it's members if we had more SS at events. What are your thoughts?

6:26 PM  
Anonymous orthoEiver said...

Following Krum's wonderful example, I will attempt to keep the highly inappropriate innuendo laden comments to a minimum.

I have but one question for you taboo. Do you know who screwface is? When you get that reference feel free to email me, I always like hearing the "you've got mail" message.

6:46 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

SS anonymous:

We're finally establishing civility here. No need for your annoying "childish bickering" comment. Make your point and leave it that. As an alternative, OM, do you have a way to generate an automatic signature line on each and every anonymous post (and lkwd guy posts) stating something like "stupid, childish, adolescent, blah, blah, blah…but,…). It would really save people a lot of time. More substantive Who (or “Don”) post to come momentarily.

7:17 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Come on, Taboo, let the filth go (and you too, OT – the least you could have done was spell it with a “K”).

Don't piss off the Don.

And besides, if you want OM to respond, don't give her the excuse of not responding to what she deems as inappropriate content.

I agree, OM’s siddur issue appears to be bizarre, but that could be because I haven’t bothered to view the specific entry she referred to when belittling the thoughtful gift given to those deserving women.

Oh, and on the topic of the siddur, here’s my response to Charlie Hall (I once knew someone with a similar last name, by the way), who was agitated that someone actually used the Art Scroll Women’s Siddur on a daily basis:

*****“It contains many halachic positions that simply do not reflect normative practice. For example, it says women should not say bircat hagomel. Chas v'shalom that they discourage fulfilment of a mitzvah! And in every community I've been a part of, women say that bracha after having a baby, after being released from the hospital after a serious illness, and after travelling across the Atlantic. Sometimes it is said at the bimah during the regular services, sometimes at kiddush, and sometimes at home. I could go on, but I think you get the drift. She does not use it for tefillah any more.”*****

I have no problem whatsoever with your wife reciting birchas hagomel from the bimah, a Kiddush or the hospital, for that matter, but how can you say that the Siddur’s position “does not reflect normative practices?”

Open up a Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim and flip to Article 219. First, in Section 1, the Mishna B’rurah clearly states (subsection 1) that these b’rachos should be recited in front of 10 people, and it’s not proper for a woman to speak in front of men in this way.

Moreover, in Section 6 (and subsection 17 of the Mishna B’rurah), the Chofetz Chaim gives specific instruction about the text of the b’racha for a man to recite for his wife (and contemplates his wife being present -- not at home or in the hospital).

Indeed, you can find other sources permitting a woman to bless for herself in front of men, and the p’sak of the Mishna B’rurah is not necessarily binding. But to say that something that is in fact normative practice and something that’s detailed in the MB is not normative practice, is simply inaccurate.

*********** “My wife was looking forward to it. Then, on the very first bracha, she saw "Modeh ani" rather than "Modah ani". Women's siddur?”*********


Hmmm...an alleged dikduk maven. I like it. Indeed, Halls, you are technically correct about the meaning of moduh ani (with a kumetz, it’s feminine) and modeh ani (with a patach, it’s masculine).

You are incorrect, however, in your assertion as it relates to a change in tikun t’fillah, other than in very few instances (such as “sheloh asani isha”).

The t’fillah of modeh ani is actually a bad example since it is not brought in the Gemara, Rishonim, etc. at all (in fact, the only source for this tefilah is the G’RA, who cites the Seder Ha’olom who says that K’lal Yisrael accepted this tefillah upon themselves - period).

In any event, to the general question about adapting a Women’s siddur and tefilah to women in particular, the best example would be the one discussed in the Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, Section 187, in which the Mechaber and the Rama discuss whether it is appropriate for women to omit the phrase “v’al b’rischa shechasamta bivsareinu” in bentching since, as you know, women are not commanded to have a bris milah. I can only imagine the tantrum thrown by your wife when she reached that page and found those words in a “Women’s Siddur.”

(If you’re interested, the halacha is actually that women DO say those words, similar, by the way, to the discussion by the Rishonim in Kiddushin 29 as to whether women say “v’tzivanu” on mitzvos on which they are not commanded (according to shitos other than Rabbeinu Tam, of course, who maintains that women don’t make those b’rachos at all (which, by the way, is the practice among sefardim to this very day))). Enough parentheticals?

There are hundreds of examples of this throughout davening (the first that comes to mind is “hanosein layoeif co’ach”, which is in the Gemara in B’rachos) and, to my knowledge, no credible source exists obligating or permitting a woman to change the nusach.

As for modeh ani itself, a woman would probably have more leeway to change the nusach if she so chooses, since it is not a part of davening that was actually a takanas chazal. Deep breath…..

I agree with you on the separate seating. I think it’s ridiculous and while not unfounded in halachic literature, if we’re going to make extra g’darim regarding the separation of men and women, it would begin at the bump and grind Shmorg, not the spacious dinner tables.

****************“wouldn't it be possible, during the times when all the men start circle-dancing, for women to circle-dance too' I've seen that in many O environments, even where there isn't a mechitzah.”***********

Bump and grind Shmorg aside, dancing presents more serious halachic issues. Viewing women in a wiggly state can (at least according to the poskim) incite prurient thoughts and lead to improper behavior.

Again, I’m not preaching halacha, and watching TV, going to a movie, walking on the street, trading sexual overtures on this blog is, in each case, probably far worse, but as to the question of wrong and right in halacha, dancing without a mechitza is wrong (even simply walking behind a woman in the street is prohibited – See Shulchan Aruch, Even Haezer, Chapter 22).

**************“And I don't see anything wrong with this blog, either halachically or hashgafically. This blog owner seems particularly careful regarding the laws of lashan hara, which is not true for many supposedly frum blogs.Chas v'shalom that Jews might meet, get married, and create more Jewish children!”*****************

Anyone single around here?

In any event, your final point is neither here nor there. We all know that blogs are a great way of communicating, but if our collective goals in life were really to becoming closer to G-d by performing mitzvos, this blog would not exist. No disrespect, Orth, but it’s a fact. And we’re all equally guilty. At least I can admit it.

So sorry, Charlie, looks like you’ll be digging through the trash tonight. It’s not all that bad after all.

7:47 PM  
Blogger orthosnore said...

For all the latest self-aggrandisment claptrap --

http://orthosnore.blogspot.com

7:53 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

OM, do you have a way to generate an automatic signature line on each and every anonymous post (and lkwd guy posts) stating something like "stupid, childish, adolescent, blah, blah, blah…but,…). It would really save people a lot of time.

Wow. You don't spend much time around here if you accuse me of being Lkwdguy.

I have no problem whatsoever with your wife reciting birchas hagomel from the bimah, a Kiddush or the hospital, for that matter, but how can you say that the Siddur’s position “does not reflect normative practices?”

Open up a Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim and flip to Article 219. First, in Section 1, the Mishna B’rurah clearly states (subsection 1) that these b’rachos should be recited in front of 10 people, and it’s not proper for a woman to speak in front of men in this way.


You are dead wrong. I have asked many poskim - some considerably to the right of where I consider myself - and have been told to bench gomel in front of ten men by every one. Some said to do so from behind a mechitza or the next room, but every one said it would be better to say it myself instead of giving the task to my husband.

8:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They are poskim and certainly not ashamed.....Who named names (R' Tam. Chofetz Chaim, and even the Mishna Berurah :)) why don't you?

8:07 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

The problem is that Artscroll is not using a consistent standard. There certainly are many, many opinions in support of women saying the bracha (see Aruch HaShulchan, Magen Avraham). Ordinarily, Artscroll's policy in situations where a tefillah is not universally accepted is to print it, and indicate in some manner that the practice is subject to dispute (e.g., "many congregations omit the following"). This approach respects the reader's autonomy and dignity as it gives him the opportunity to inquire with their Rav or figure out his minhag. By not printing the bracha, Artscroll is essentially telling women that they are unable of making that decision.

8:11 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

And it isn't a minority minhag. Maybe in certain circles it is not the minhag, but in many it most certainly is. Either Artscroll is making that decision for women, as Krum says, or they are simply uninterested in having their siddur used by anyone who is not part of a certain slice of Orthodoxy.

8:18 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

First of all, thank you for acknowledging my existence, OM. Pleasure to hear from you on a substantive level (or at least an attempt).

Even though I don’t spend much time around here (is there something wrong with that? site meter not showing enough time spent?), I obviously know you’re not lkwd guy. I was referring to the anon who called certain posters “trolls,” in the same way lkwd guy did yesterday (or maybe today). The reference to you in that paragraph was solely a deferential one – you are the owner of the blog and the only one that could possibly create the hypothetical signature line. Just read it again – not sure how you misinterpreted that.

On the gomel issue, you should re-read what I wrote, and use caution when using the phrase “dead wrong.” You, not me, are DEAD WRONG, but will probably disappear until your next post and never apologize for your error. You conveniently excerpted only a portion of my post , and omitted the part where I CLEARLY indicated that my only issue was with Charlie’s denial about “normative practice.” The Siddur follows the Mishna B’rurah’s view. You and Charlie follow the other views which again, I CLEARLY acknowledged exist. Go up to the Torah – read from the Torah for all I care.

Man, you should really read stuff before responding. And I’m assuming, of course, that before exclaiming that I’m “dead wrong” in front of a large audience, you checked the clear, express references that I served to you on a silver platter. A self-proclaimed squeaky halachically-clean blogger such as yourself would never attempt to embarrass a fellow Jew in front of many without first being extra, extra careful that she was correct.

I hope you did more homework about your Hatzalah (potential) slander than you did on this one.

Oy vay, OM, how far you’ve fallen. You’ll bounce back – you seem like a real trooper.

8:23 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

I totally agree, Krum. But for Charlie to cite an example of why he trashed the Siddur from a view supported by the Mishna B'ruruah (the Mishnah B'ruruah, G-d dammit) is ridiculous. Come on, Krum, back me up man, you read what I wrote and clearly indicated that the MB view was not binding.

8:26 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Krum:

Please cite me examples in which Art Scroll does not follow the Mishna B'rurah's view on a real issue (i.e., as opposed to whether or not to say Av Harachim on Shabbos Mevorchim Iyur). I'm not saying there aren't examples - just curious.

8:31 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

You conveniently excerpted only a portion of my post , and omitted the part where I CLEARLY indicated that my only issue was with Charlie’s denial about “normative practice.” The Siddur follows the Mishna B’rurah’s view. You and Charlie follow the other views which again, I CLEARLY acknowledged exist. Go up to the Torah – read from the Torah for all I care.

I read your comment. Normative halachic practice is absolutely to bench gomel. To indicate that it might be on the same level as your offer to "Go up to the Torah – read from the Torah for all I care" is, and I repeat, dead wrong.

8:39 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Agreed. That is dead wrong. But I said nothing in my original post about majority/minority view. Only questioned how Charlie can say normative practice is contrary to MB and, on that basis, not use a Siddur.

Do you own a MB, by the way?

8:42 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

I like how instead of apologizing for your error, you instead picked on my line that was obviously inserted for emphasis purposes. There was absolutely no need for clarification that reading from the Torah would -- in your view -- be different than bentching gomel.


Or maybe there was, ConservoMom?

8:45 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Who, one that comes to mind is the pesukim printed next to each word of birchas cohanim. Mishna berura (if I recall correctly) says that they may not be read, yet it is still printed and the commentary gives a range of opinions.

8:53 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Your recollection is accurate.

8:56 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

OM’s siddur issue appears to be bizarre

So, do you retract?

Or are you waiting for OrthoT to get back so you can retract your offending comments together?

8:58 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Retract what?

8:59 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

How do you italicize the quoted text?

9:02 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Let's start with this:

who:

OM’s siddur issue appears to be bizarre

OrthoT:

Bashing neighborhood rabbanim, charities and other institutions can be vastly more destructive than the offhanded use of a double entendre.

9:03 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Bracket the text with html tags like this:

bold: [b]text[/b]
italics: [i]text[/i]

Use this "<" instead of brackets (if I used the correct characters above, blogger interpret the characters as HTML code).

9:08 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Firstly, I do think it's bizarre that a blogger would make a negative comment about a Shul gifting a Siddur at a dinner solely on the basis of the siddur following the MB view on a specific issue. I assume neither you nor OM (or her husband, if not redundant) own or use any Art Scroll gemarahs for this very same purpose (and would be horrified, or at least disappointed, if a set was gifted to you)?

Secondly, would the use of such rhetoric ever warrant a retraction? My answer would be no, even if she had demonstrated that it contained a picture of Jesus nailed to a cross under Uva L’tziyon. All I said was that her issue with it was “bizarre,” and even hedged that with the fact that I hadn’t read her reasons.

What’s up with you and OM? You seem like a sensible guy but, in this regard, you’re just trying to defend a ridiculous position because it’s OM’s position. What’s blinding you?

And if you view the use of the word “bizarre” in that context to be offensive, stay away from eating breakfast for the next few days…

9:19 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

cool. thanks.

9:19 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

What’s up with you and OM? You seem like a sensible guy but, in this regard, you’re just trying to defend a ridiculous position because it’s OM’s position. What’s blinding you?

Again. Read my post. It's one thing to note what the MB's position is. It's another to blind your readers from the fact that there are other normative positions. Especially where Artscroll generally gives a multiplicity of opinions where they exist (Birchas Cohanim being a prime example). The obvious reason is that Artscroll is trying to stay far away from any position that smacks of giving any autonomy to women. I can imagine why a woman would find that offensive.

9:29 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Again, I agree, but another boycott?

We all know that Art Scroll is very right wing. We don't need examples for that. But since when did people who are not far right stop using (or turn their noses up at receiving) their extremely helpful product?

Heck, I don't consider myself far right, and my views on the role of women in religous practice is probably more towards yours than towards the Art Scroll rabbis. But that doesn't stop me from enjoying their s'forim. Does it stop you?

If a dedicated member was being given a gift by your Shul as a gesture of appreciation, would you specifically instruct (assuming it was your decision, of course) those purchasing the gift to stay away from AS?

Focus on the point here. We're agreeing, yet your blind allegiance is not allowing you to admit it. In any event, I hope OM is at least a friend of yours. That would somewhat explain your (bizarre) conduct.

9:42 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

What's bizarre? A group of people descending en masse on someone's blog to cause trouble. Did OM advocate of "boycott" of artscroll? All she said was:

"Two women were honored, and were given (drumroll) the Artscroll Women's Siddur as a gift. Nice gesture, but I've made my opinion known here on that particular publication. I'm not the biggest fan."

That's it. "Nice gesture...not the biggest fan." I don't see how anyone can possibly characterize that mildly expressed opinion as "bizarre." Yet, based on your comment, I don't think her position is that far from yours! And if you think that stating a position that is slightly too hot or cold for your taste is "bizarre" than I have another adjective for you: crazy.

10:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I cannot believe this stupidity is still going on

10:32 PM  
Anonymous OverthroOrtho said...

My Mamma used to tell me..."you're arguing for the sake of arguing" I think Krum as a bagel just likes to hear the sound of his own Keyboard.

As for "Don Who" you're pretty good, initialy, but your no Al Pacino

10:42 PM  
Anonymous OverthroOrtho said...

Once again without the typo (everyone should have an ally :)

My Mamma used to tell me..."you're arguing for the sake of arguing" I think Krum as a bagel just likes to hear the sound of his own Keyboard.
As for "Don Who" you're pretty good, initially, but your no Al Pacino

10:58 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

Boy, and this used to be a nice peaceful blog! I have a couple of questions, the first because I'm not a resident of the Five Towns: What is the Red Shul?

And secondly - why is it wrong for Orthomom to express her opinions in her own blog? If you don't like it - don't read it. The rest of us don't feel the need to be "corrected" by your attacks on her.

11:23 PM  
Anonymous jerusalemom said...

Reading these comments makes me really glad I don't live in the NY metro area anymore. You guys sound like you haven't left high school yet.

Grow up and find something productive to do with your time.

12:29 AM  
Blogger YMedad said...

Wow. I just got to this and all I can say is: "and heeeeeere comes...Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.

1:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

we want Moshiach now, yeah right. this is much more fun.
bashing, judging, name calling, flirting,
GREAT

10:45 AM  
Anonymous Katie B. said...

I wish that the Orthofrauds would find something better to do instead of attacking Momof4's character and person.

Please don't let this clown stop you from blogging. The nature of this attacker/Orthowhoever is clearly filled filled with rage, selfishness, self-righteousness, and the desire to hurt someone as smart and interesting as the proprieter of this blog.

1:07 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Or, Katie B. (what does the B. stand for?), just someone who does not appreciate an anonymous blogger attacking his friend.

But, in fairness, I had a life until discovering blogs a few days ago, so I'm incapable of viewing this entire exchange from the perspective of someone who has not had a life in months and, in some case, years. I repeat, years.

Nice of you to stick up for your sister, by the way.

Finally, what makes me a "fraud?"

1:22 PM  
Blogger OrthoTricyclen said...

Katie B: who, exactly, is the "attacker" here and who has been attacked? I began this discourse by asking people to refrain from personal attacks and pointing out that this blog does exactly that on ocassion. And there went the neighborhood. Usually prim OrthoMom lost all semblance of self control, the OrthoMomDefenders unleashed a torrent of, yep, personal attacks, while others lamented the loss of the bais hamikdash and the rift between kamtza and bar kamtza. Can you say, wild overreaction?

As to OrthoMom's response yesterday about it being permissible to opine on the statements of community rabbanim when they are public, I lay down the following challenge on which Mom should consult her rabbinic authority: is it permissible to lambaste a community Rav or organization -- in public, on this blog -- by dint of the fact that the Rav or organization has said something in public with which one disagrees? And make it specific: if a Rav makes a controversial statement in a drasha (query whether that is really public, like a newspaper, but this blog makes no distinction), is it permissible to blast the Rav on this blog?

Let the attacks on my "character and person" fly. Yes, yes, I can feel my powers growing.

2:09 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Ortho T:

I am no Rabbi, but the answer to your question is clearly "NO," it is absolutely forbidden – I repeat, forbidden. There is no justification for facilitating further discussion of an issue, if the disclosure would have been forbidden in the first instance. But, Ortho T, we’re all guilty, and need to accept the fact that we’re sinners just like OrthoMom (clearly, that was your point in the first instance, but some read too quickly and need it spelled out.).

[OrthoKrum: Please insert here: OM: “No, you’re DEAD WRONG. I am a woman. Hear me ROAR!”]

Ortho T made an observation, and OM, Katie B. and their gang of friends from Israel and Teaneck with fond (and apparently recent) memories of High School (GED at age 40 guys, huh?) turned this into a personal bashing session. We’ll continue to respond in kind unless y’all want to actually have a substantive discussion. I gave everyone a shot last night to shift direction but, aside from Krum, the only non-GED response I got was from the Boss Lady that I’m DEAD WRONG.

[i] “He comes out looking good here. He accepted and published an ad, was subsequently informed of its inaccuracy, and promptly retracted and apologized. This is the classy way to behave.” [i]

I agree with your comment about LG, OM, but it’s time to follow your own advice.

See ya on Shabbos…

2:55 PM  
Blogger OrthoKrum said...

Thaks for the tip Who, would you like to join my staff? I have an opening for a level headed/instigating/peace making/provoking/clarifying/belligerent writer. Interested?

3:09 PM  
Blogger Who is Ortho? said...

Not really. But I appreciate the offer. Your comments are clever and entertaining but, as you probably know, I have enough on my plate already. As a suggestion, once these old-timers follow their own advice and clean up their act, be nice, they're probably all good people in real life.

INSERT HERE [Anonymous... I cannot believe this stupidity is still going on. Glad I moved to Jerusalem where everyone has the same opinions and gets along in our own little fairytale land…]

[Lkwd Guy…The trolls are still here? At least we have pot-smoking as an excuse for our behavior…]

[Charlie Hall…Can you believe that guy said Jesus and Siddur in the same sentence? I’m trashing this computer…]

[Katie B… Oh, Orthomon…you are so smart, interesting and beautiful…ignore these adolescent frauds (and, for the record, I wasn’t a day over 35 when I got my GED).]

3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow i heard about this in shul today but had to see it to believe it. glad i don't daven in the red shul if this is what passes for fun for you guys.

10:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why must people generalize? At worst you are talking about a handful of red shul members if not less. why label an entire shul based on the actions of a few people?

10:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ortho's probably the only red shuler on this blog. those guys probably don't even know how to use computers.

12:37 AM  
Blogger Angela Dixon said...

I really like your writing style. Such a nice Post, Can’t wait for the next one.

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