Construction Accident In Flatbush Mikvah Kills Worker
Lovely. One construction worker was killed and another two were seriously injured in an explosion in Flatbush today. According to this account from NBC News, they were building a Mikvah in the basement. Three guesses as to whether they were operating with a permit:
City officials said the homeowners did not have a permit to install the bath, called a mikvah, which is used by Orthodox Jews in a purification ritual. Firefighters at the scene said the basement did not have proper ventilation. Five firefighters suffered minor injuries in battling the resulting blaze, Daley said.People seem to feel that building permits are just a technicality, and that somehow, they are above the law when it comes to building home additions, shuls or mikvahs. Well, the necessary permits aren't technicalities. They are for the safety of both the workers and the residents on the job. Maybe it's time for people to get that into their heads. What's terrible is that it takes a tragedy like this to showcase the necessity.
posted by orthomom at 10:00 PM
45 Comments:
Yet another instance of the mentality that dina d'malchuta doodoo.
This ties in with the post about the riots, IMHO. The disdain for secular authority - whether Jewish or not - is despicable.
Or what TJVM said. :)
Yet another preventable accident. I don't know how many accidents (and there have been plenty) it will take until people understand that safety regulations didn't appear out of thin air.
Um, why would somebody build a mikva in the basement of a private house (which I know the house to be)?
I see a general decline in civility and respect for the law. This includes the radical "pro-life" people who attack abortion clinics, the young Muslims rioting in France, soccer game brawls in England and ... the people who came to Gaza specifically to oppose Tzahal and charedim rioting in Ashdod and NYC.
"Wie christelt es sich, so jüdelt es sich." (I'm not sure how to add in the Muslims.)
Um, why would somebody build a mikva in the basement of a private house (which I know the house to be)?
I was told it was a shteibel?
To do tveilah on lots of kelim? Lots of women? The local mikvah lady isn't polite? A cover for making bathtub gin?
Not to imply that building codes and the like should not be complied with, but I think that technically Dina D'Malchusa generally does not apply to administrative and regulatory regimes such as traffic laws and building codes(at least according to some opinions). This of course does not mean that you can go do something dangerous, but it does mean that there is not necessarily, as a general proposition, a halachic violation (an aveirah) for making alterations to your home without a permit, going 65 MPH in a 55 zone, or hiring an illegal immigrant as a housekeeper. (Anyone here know the specifics of this and want to elaborate?)
Once we're throwing around the term, we may as well use it correctly.
Everyone is certainly running to give the benefit of the doubt to the homeowners.
Let's get real for a minute! I have had numerous repairs and renovations made on my home over the years, and the contractors were usually very quick to jump the gun and tell me that no permit was needed for the work. That includes both Jewish contractors *and* non-Jewish firms. They wanted to get the business and finish the job without the hassle of a permit. If I thought there was a doubt, I usually asked my neighbor, who regularly supervises construction and renovation projects as part of his job. But I could have easily been led astray by him through ignorance regarding residential requirements.
Maybe I should have tried calling the local governmental office in charge of these things? Good luck getting a straight answer there! Or even getting someone to be polite!
I realize that there are *plenty* of situations in which members of our communities assume they are above the law. However, I don't think we know all the facts, and I can easily imagine an eager foreman assuring everyone that "this is not a big job . . . you don't need a permit for this".
If we're really serious about preventing tragedies like this, we need to support uniform building codes and make the whole permit process more straightforward for both property owners *and* the people they hire.
Everyone is certainly running to give the benefit of the doubt to the homeowners.
Let's get real for a minute! I have had numerous repairs and renovations made on my home over the years, and the contractors were usually very quick to jump the gun and tell me that no permit was needed for the work. That includes both Jewish contractors *and* non-Jewish firms. They wanted to get the business and finish the job without the hassle of a permit. If I thought there was a doubt, I usually asked my neighbor, who regularly supervises construction and renovation projects as part of his job. But I could have easily been led astray by him through ignorance regarding residential requirements.
Maybe I should have tried calling the local governmental office in charge of these things? Good luck getting a straight answer there! Or even getting someone to be polite!
I realize that there are *plenty* of situations in which members of our communities assume they are above the law. However, I don't think we know all the facts, and I can easily imagine an eager foreman assuring everyone that "this is not a big job . . . you don't need a permit for this".
If we're really serious about preventing tragedies like this, we need to support uniform building codes and make the whole permit process more straightforward for both property owners *and* the people they hire.
Sorry about that -- to much clicking!
What about going 100 in a 55 zone? I can agree that exceeding the speed limit a bit isn't an averah (the police generally won't ticket you for it), but ignoring/violating the laws that are designed to protect people from harm would seem to qualify.
Does "administrative and regulatory regimes" that are exempt include things like prohibitions on insider trading (prevent stealing), licensing doctors (cut out quacks) and OSHA (prevent injury)?
I'm being testy here, but it is always interesting to see what in which areas people choose to be stringent versus lenient.
The contractor should be culpable here, too (if there was a contractor).
ten jew - going 100 in a 55 would be a problem because you are recklessly putting yourself and others in danger - NOT because of violations of the traffic laws.
Insider trading (depending on the form) is generally kind of hard to characterize as theft, but I assume that it WOULD be covered because it is in the business/money realm.
Anything with (enforced) criminal penalties would probably be included as well (practicing Medicine w/o a license as a business might be a problem, treating someone once bec. you know what you are doing, but just aren't licensed might be s/t else)
Again this is based on my recollection of the relevant Halacha and not on anything I can cite to, so I may be off a little. In any case its not my own personally rationalized heter (as you implied), but an actual halachic definition of what is covered by Dina D'Malchusa. Anyone with more specific knowledge is hereby asked to chime in.
See also: Chilul Hashem, which is a separate issue
"People seem to feel that building permits are just a technicality, and that somehow, they are above the law when it comes to building home additions, shuls or mikvahs. Well, the necessary permits aren't technicalities. They are for the safety of....."
While SSSOOOOMMMEE people seem to think that 'J' walking laws are 'just a technicality' and that somehow THEY are above the law when it comes to walking in middle of the street. Well, the neccesary laws, aren't technicalities. they are there for the safety of......
Would OM, or NBC give a rat's tuches if it was an unauthorized bathroom he was building? The same ventilation would have been neccesary. The only reason this story was newsworthy, and anyone is up in arms about it, is because it was supposedly a Mikveh the homeowner was installing. Illegal extra bathrooms, and basement bedrooms are a common occurence throughout New York City, where the permit process is a labirynth. Throughout Bed Sty, Clinton Hill, Bay Ridge, Staten Island, there are illegal basement apartments, curb cuts, etc. OM are you going to tell us that you wouldn't have someone change a light fixture in your house without going down to the Buildings Dept. to get a permit? How about if your pilot light went out on your gas boiler, do you know that you would technically have to turn the gas off, and wait for a liscenced plumber to sign off before you could have the utility come out and turn it back on? Well, guess what, technically you'd be breaking the law. How about the Mikveh Lady where you go to the Mikveh, Does she take an ALS course? In most municipalities, there is a requirement for Any public bathing facility to have a life guard present. The bottom line is, that ultimately the homeowner will be vilified, but it is the contractor who took on the job without applying for permits that should be held responsible. If the contractor were digging a foundation with a permit, and neglected to call ahead to verify whether or not there were any gaslines (as you see in the comercials, "call before you dig") would anyone be screaming at the homeowner? No, everyone would blame the contractor for being negligent. Why in this case is he any less responsible, he did a job without taking the neccesary precautions.
Somewhat Anonymous:
Actually, Rav Aaron Solovetchik Z'l held that even jay walking was assur, let alone violating building codes.
I'll have to post on that...
Would OM, or NBC give a rat's tuches if it was an unauthorized bathroom he was building? The same ventilation would have been neccesary. The only reason this story was newsworthy, and anyone is up in arms about it, is because it was supposedly a Mikveh the homeowner was installing
You MUST be joking. This isn't just newsworthy because they were building a mikvah, this is newsworthy because someone died. I can assure you that the local NBC station reports on these types of construction accidents whether they occur when building a mikvah or a bathroom.
Why is it newsworthy for my blog? Let me spell it out for you:
Yes, I put it on my blog because they were building a Mikvah and thus identifiable as Orthodox Jews, Why?
First, because I generally tend to be interested in issues that affect the Orthodox community. It's the "ortho" in "orthomom" that might tip you off to that fact.
Second, there is certainly an epidemic in the Orthodox community (as well as other communities) of doing work without a permit. Now, you are correct, the contractor bears much of the blame here for performing this work without the necessary permits, and I am quite sure that the owner was assured by him that "they don't need to file for the permits". That said, the point of my post was not to place blame on the homeowners, but to point out the ignorance that exists in this comunity and others when it comes to the resposibility of getting work permits, which are required by law.
The homeowner in this case may not have moral responsibility, but they certainly have some legal responsibility for not obtaining the proper permits.
And to answer your question, I actually did file for the necessary building permits, even for a very minor construction job. I was warned by a friend that the local building departments do not take well to attempts to skirt the law. And I think that is a good policy.
How about if your pilot light went out on your gas boiler...
Come on now, we all know that OM has an oil boiler...
actually this has to do with our collective leadership caring less about known common violations of the law, than getting themselvesi nvolved in idiocy like marriage protections acts that have nothing to do with them in the first place
OM-"You MUST be joking. This isn't just newsworthy because they were building a mikvah, this is newsworthy because someone died."
Bull-I'll prove it. About 6 months ago, exactly 2 blocks from where this tradgedy occured (e 31 st., between avenues L and M), there was a Mexican day laborer knocking down a garage for someone. No permits were filed, the garage collapsed on him, and he was found dead two days later (it was winter, and no one was home at the time). You didn't hear one word about it in the news. I was looking for it, because I know the person who found the body, and was looking for it on the wires. There was a death, same as here, no news story. On Ocean Parkway, in Brooklyn, two months ago, A worker was killed when there was improper support while digging a foundation, and NBC didn't even find it worth mentioning, that story made the radio, for a split second, but nothing close to the bruhaha this one made.
OM-"I actually did file for the necessary building permits, even for a very minor construction job."
Please don't obfuscate. The question was, and remains, wheteher or not you would file permits to change A LIGHT FIXTURE. If not, then it is just a matter of degrees. For a minor construction job, the building permit process pertains to you, but for smaller jobs not. The home owner in this case determined that his/her line was at a different point.
OM-"I was warned by a friend that the local building departments do not take well to attempts to skirt the law. And I think that is a good policy."
This statement may very well nail home my point. Ask yourself, would your friend NOT have warned you, and if the local building dept. was NOT so diligent, but instead had your contractor said "this is only minor, I can do this without getting the permit, by the time the buildings dept. came down to inspect, the job would be complete, and there is no way they could know", and your friend in-the-know backed him up, would you then have tried to skirt the law?
typo lad: as Joel Rich said, there are quite the range of opinions on it, (Note the caveat "at least according to some opinions" in my original post). I'll admit I'm looking for a tzad z'chus here - also I don't think that the stringent view is all that widely accepted.
Joel - I'd be interested in seeing that pdf. Kindly send it to somewhatanon41 AT yahoo.com
PRICELESS!!
There is a certain house in Cedarhurst, being put up by a certain person, on a certain street (you cant miss the house - it is a MONSTROSITY) that, from what I understand, will have a mikvah in it. Does anyone have any intel on this?
You know, nowhere in the article does it say that the homeowner was the one who failed to file the permits. For all we know the workers were negligent on this.
Mind you, the homeowner could have been at fault, but assuming is bad.
Anon, of course I remember the mexican worker story. It got as much billing as this one. You have a bone to pick or an axe to grind - I'm not sure which.
Another point OM was too proper to make: in the NY times story on this mikvah explosion, the Orthodox family whose house was the scene said "it was a miracle that Mrs. ___ didn't get hurt (the house owner). Which is a typical idiotic Orthodox quote. Are we to understand that the workers didn't merit the same miracle? Boneheaded comment. Its one thing to say that in shul, but to the ny times??
I don't see any assumptions by OM that the homeowner is at fault. Didn't she say above that they are not morally at fault?
I'm sure prior to this they were also planning to heat the mikvah water with a pool heater that probably wouldn't have been properly ventilated, risking carbon monoxide poisoning of the homeowners in question and whatever innocent children live in the house. There are reaons for building codes: a mikvah is not a bathtub! Bathtub water is heated by the existing water heater.
These homeowners and/or contractors should be ashamed of themselves doing this with illegal subs.
Anon 10:28
I checked the wires everyday for a week after that story, it was nowhere to be found. The only place it made play was in the shuls and (public) mikvehs in the neighborhood. NBC was nowhere to be found. Would it have made the wires, someone in the media would certainly have made the "no permit" connection, and played it up, with the first incident having occured only two blocks away.
Did you see the write up of this incident in the NY Times? The chilul Hashem is that the stereotype of the ortho only caring about themselves is perpetuated. For one, they didn't file for permits or insist that the contractor do so, but then - even worse - a relative of the homeowner praised God for the wife's narrow escape from the explosion. Nary a word of sympathy about the workers who were horribly burned. If this relative did acknowledge the tragedy, and the reporter left it out, then that reporter has no problem perpetuating the negative stereotype, which is bad journalism.
We really need to work on the "or la-goyim" concept. It doesn't matter if everyone else is rude, jaywalks or doesn't file permits. WE still should act correctly.
Sorry - didn't see that previous commenter already referred to the NYT article.
rebba shlita said...
regardless of a permit the workers used a product incorrectly. the product is called Rub-R-Wall and it clearly says it is not to be used inside, for outdoor use only.
so regardless if there was a permit or not this accident still happens b/c people do not know how to use products, not b/c of a stupid permit. a permit is a stupid paper that is used for the city to make money. i am very familar about permits and the process its all bogus.
By the way, that's why you hired skilled workers who are properly licensed. Nice try, Rebba.
Goy Guy said...
Anon 2:57 is way off base. The story is newsworthy because someone got killed and others were injured.
Of course, any explosion where someone is killed is newsworthy, my problem is with the fact that OM, and NBC made this into an "Orthodox think the laws don't pertain to them" issue. This was a tradgedy. Whether or not there was anything illegal done by the homeowner is debateable (as per Fox News, there were no permit violations in the construction, although the use of the materials chosen by the contractor-who happens to be a very professional, reliable, certified, liscensed plumber, used throughout NYC- may have been in violation of some material codes). OM's choice of "home additions, Shuls and Mikvehs", as the preeminent violators of building permit laws is what got under my skin. Anyone who has been to a few buildings throughout NYC (as my position in the real estate field has brought me) knows that this is something that cuts across the entire spectrum of NYC home/building owners.
I guess my real point is-OM, just because you experienced it only in your limited, insulated, exposure to orthodox people, don't assume that the "problem" is limited to them. That would be like me saying all bodega owners were Pakistani, simply because the corner where I by my lotto ticket is owned by one. While everyone knows, that there are a few owned by Indians as well ;P
OM-"They never charged him with anything. That's enough for me. Shame on you for looking for it to be otherwise"
OM-"Three guesses as to whether they were operating with a permit"
A quick check of the buildings department website shows that there was no violation issued for working without a permit. The only violation was for a structual check of stability. This lends credence to the Fox News report quoted earlier that there was no permit violation. In other words, this is one Flatbush dweller that was not charged, yet seems to be assumed guilty until proven otherwise.
A quick check of the buildings department website shows that there was no violation issued for working without a permit. The only violation was for a structual check of stability. This lends credence to the Fox News report quoted earlier that there was no permit violation. In other words, this is one Flatbush dweller that was not charged, yet seems to be assumed guilty until proven otherwise.
The contractor was charged for operating without a permit. If you were a careful reader, you will note that I made it very clear here that I don't"blame" the homeowners. As a matter of fact, I said that I believe that they bear no moral responsibility, as the contractor should have obtained permit. That said, homeowners should always ask the contractor if he has obtained the necessary permits. You should really read all the comments before you type.
"People seem to feel that building permits are just a technicality, and that somehow, they are above the law when it comes to building home additions, shuls or mikvahs"
"Why is it newsworthy for my blog? Let me spell it out for you:
Yes, I put it on my blog because they were building a Mikvah and thus identifiable as Orthodox Jews"
How is this not blaming the homeowner? If you were refering to the contractor, how or why would you assume J.M. Pereira & Sons were Orthodox Jews? The wording of your post clearly insinuates that the homeowner share the blame in this situation. You were assuming in your post that the homeowner being another "typical" Orthodox "the law doesn't apply to me, Flatbush dweller" was operating without a permit. Evidence seems to point out that he wasn't.
Enough said on this subject. You owe a seemingly inocent family of 8 in Flatbush, whose name you helped drag through the mud an apology. Owe, and please don't assume that, just because I view this post as offensive, that I'm troll. Quite the contrary, when your posts are on point I just don't feel any need to point it out.
"The contractor was charged for operating without a permit."
No, the contractor received a citation for storing more than 5 gallons of the material. Not for any operational violations.
"Why is it newsworthy for my blog? Let me spell it out for you:
Yes, I put it on my blog because they were building a Mikvah and thus identifiable as Orthodox Jews"
How is this not blaming the homeowner? If you were refering to the contractor, how or why would you assume J.M. Pereira & Sons were Orthodox Jews?
Well, let's see. The accident affected a house wherein Orthodox Jews lived. To say that the responsible is not at all responsible to obtain necessary permits is silly. I don't think this family bears any responsibilty for the deaths and injuries - as the contractor made thye mistakes that caused the deaths of hiw workers. That said, to deny that obtaining the proper permits and licensed workers does not create a safer situation for all, involved is silly.
The wording of your post clearly insinuates that the homeowner share the blame in this situation. You were assuming in your post that the homeowner being another "typical" Orthodox "the law doesn't apply to me, Flatbush dweller" was operating without a permit. Evidence seems to point out that he wasn't.
My post "Insinuates"? I am "assuming"? No one here is making assumptions or putting words in my mouth but you. As a matter of fact, if you would just scroll up, you would see that I made a very clear statement that even if the law does require the homeowner to file the necessary permits (and check the laws - the onus is on the homeowner, even if they generally choose to transfer that responsibility to the contractor), the homeowner does not bear any moral responsibility for this accident.
You owe a seemingly inocent family of 8 in Flatbush, whose name you helped drag through the mud an apology.
Please. I don't think so. And by the way, you are a bit tedious with this refrain, on post after post of mine.
I think that some of the blame should be put on the contractors. As a contractor myself, taking on jobs with out permits is not uncommon. Having said that you should know your work and understand what it is your doing. If there is something wrong that could harm yourself or anyone else later, red flags should go up. This is a go time to tell those in charge the errors or walk from the job. My motto is I wish my kids to know who I am, not who I was.
are these workers covered by accident at work insurance? will the deceased family be able to obtain compensation due to the accident possibly being someone elses fault or is it a risk he undertook?
OMG! I still hoping that this incident should a lesson for us. So next time to those construction companies, you need to apply the safety first before the go on of the projects, work is important but the most important is life, we have only one life, okay?
The workplace accidents are very common. It mostly occurs due to the lack of safety and security measures provided by a company to its workers. If you are involved in a work accident you have a right to make a compensation claim. In order to make the claiming process easy you should follow the basic steps given below:
* Get advice and medical attention from a doctor.
* Report your accident to your employer and record it in the employer's accident book.
* Collect all evidences and details of witness.
* Look for help and guidance of a work accident solicitor.
To avoid such accidents, building permit laws should be more strict.
Oh! I hear this daily, either on newspaper or TV..Hope some safety precautionary should be taken to stop these accidents!
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