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Sunday, June 11, 2006

Five Towns Article in Newsday

The article that was in the works when I wrote this post, about some questions the reporter covering the story had asked the editor of the local Jewish paper, has been published. Kudos to the reporter, Carol Eisenberg, who seems to have done her research thoroughly, and, in my opinion, presented an accurate and fair representation of the very real tensions that exist due to the shift in demographics here in the Five Towns.

The question I have is, why is this such a big story? The Orthodox migration is no different from other migrations of visible ethnic groups who make their move from the city to the suburbs. I presume that the added drama of the "Jew vs. Jew" angle makes what is really just a typical demographic shift a more tempting story line.

Update: The first article linked above was aparently one of a series of three articles on the tensions in the Five Towns. Here is one about the Public School board and election conflict that I have been following closely. Also overall, pretty balanced, though there are some quotes that I can't see as anything but combative, such as these two, by a husband-and-wife team who have been known to be a loud advocate of the budget and voting for the "Public school candidates":
"Basically, I feel like they are trying to make us extinct," said Annette Robbins of North Woodmere, a Lawrence High School alumna and a vocal public school advocate. She is the mother of two boys, one a third-grader and the other about to start school, and her anxiety and anger surface quickly when she considers the future of the district.

"We were here first. Why are you trying to take over?" she said. "I hope they do the right thing, but I think the right thing to them and the right thing to us are two different things."

"It's an us-versus-them situation," said Annette Robbins' husband, Jordan. He shrugged. "It is what it is. We didn't make it that way. It's the Orthodox against the public school people."

"They are trying to make us extinct"? "We were here first"? "It's the Orthodox against the public school people"? In addition to being wrong, these quotes, in contrast to every quote that was obtained from members of the private school community, are just a continuation of the rhetoric I've grown used to seeing from some (but by no means all) members of the public school community - both here in my comment threads and elsewhere. Not exactly the bridge-building the community so sorely needs.

The third piece is basically a feel-good piece about some Orthodox and non-Orthodox students attending a local public school together, and how they manage to coexist peacefully.

Update II: Another point that I missed when skimming the second article is, according to a source, this factual error right here:

Two sides to numbers' story

Look at the numbers, private school parents say. They speak for themselves.

Lawrence spends more than $24,000 per pupil - among the highest in Nassau County and more than Garden City, Jericho or Manhasset - and its academic achievement doesn't rank as high as those districts.

Look closer, district officials argue. That number doesn't tell the whole story.

Most districts don't have so many private school students. The district says that artificially inflates its per-pupil spending, which also includes transportation, special education and textbook costs for private school students. State law requires school districts provide those services for private school students.

The State's per/student spending costs do not seem to factor in the private school transportation, textbook, and special education costs. If they did, the number would be closer to $27,000 per student - not the $24,000 number as reported by the state and repeated in the article. (Special Education students that attend private schools are counted in both the private and public school enrollment numbers, according to a source) That discrepancy seems to account for the private school's share of the pie, belying the reporter's claims in the article. If anyone has any information to the contrary, please feel free to e-mail me or comment, but it appears that the figures are pretty self-explanatory.


Anonymous 30 year 5T resident said...

I heard that this is only the first of a series of articles on the problems here. Don't be so sure Newsdays portrayal will stay "balanced". (Not sure it is balanced by the way, but I think so for other reasons then you probably do. The article fails to mention the stores that have lost business due to being forced bt the Orthodox to stay closed. It also doesn't mention the fact that our public schools have a much larger % of minorities due to the Orthodox not sending their students to the schools. It also doesn't mention that the Orthodox DO double-park much more than non Orthodox. It also doesn't mention that we are looked at with disdain by young children who already have their parents attitudes when we drive down the street on "Shabbus". Anything I left out?)

2:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow am I glad they didn't interview the guy above for the article.

2:54 AM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

30 year 5t - Wow that's quite the laundry list of complaints, lets take them one by one, shall we? -

"The article fails to mention the stores that have lost business due to being forced bt the Orthodox to stay closed."

The Orthodox are "forcing" stores to stay closed (I assume you mean on Shabbos)? How so? Because the fact that the Orthodox don't shop on Shabbos means it isn't worth opening up? Or because they would not get a hechsher(Did I spell that right OM?)if they opened on shabbos? In either case, it is the store owners deciding to stay closed in response to the makeup of their clientele, no "forcing" required.

"It also doesn't mention the fact that our public schools have a much larger % of minorities due to the Orthodox not sending their students to the schools."

Not sure what you mean by this. Is this a complaint against the Orthodox for not sending their kids to public schools, and thereby lower the overall quality of the schools? Why should you expect Orthodox parents to send their children to schools that teach a message that is wholly incompatible with their beliefs?

"It also doesn't mention that the Orthodox DO double-park much more than non Orthodox."

I could be pedantic and ask for hard statistics on this, but I won't. I will point out that there are a lot more Orthodox people on Central Ave to begin with, which adds to this (unfortunately somewhat true) perception.

"It also doesn't mention that we are looked at with disdain by young children who already have their parents attitudes when we drive down the street on 'Shabbus'"

Not sure why "Shabbus" gets scare quotes here. Shabbos observance is a central tenet of Orthodox belief, and its importance is and should be taught to young children. Obviously any abusive behavior (stone-throwing, cursing, insults, etc.) would be wholly unacceptable. But disdainful looks? Why is it so horrible to you that Orthodox children look down on violation of basic religious tenets? Are they supposed to be indifferent about it?

I can understand that it can be quite uncomfortable for a non-orthodox person to live in an Orthodox neighborhood. I don't see why any of your complaints (leaving aside the double parking thing, which isn't exactly a religious tenet) are things that the Orthodox ought to change their behavior to address.

3:04 AM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

The question I have is, why is this such a big story? The Orthodox migration is no different from other migrations of visible ethnic groups who make their move from the city to the suburbs.

True, but migrations of other ethnic groups that result in drastic neighborhood change are newsworthy as well. Maybe not a "big story," but certainly a worthy topic for an article in the paper. I do agree that the "Jew v. Jew" aspect gives it higher profile

7:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was at Sunday little league a few weeks ago when someone who I assume now was this reporter was walking aroud stopping mothers and fathers who were watching the games and taking interviews. She was with her photographer. I was surprised she got anyone to talk to her, and she even took pictures of the teams. But the pics aren't in the article.

8:36 AM  
Anonymous 25 year resident said...

Dear Mom. I've heard all before. An old timer mentioned to me over 20 years ago " the orthodox forced Toddy's to close on shabbat" or "why do you walk in the street on shabbat?" THE ONUS IS ON US! A former business associate (who is non observant) felt compelled to move when a frum family discouraged their children from playing with hers. (she didn't lose out as a bidding war ensued over her waterfront home). What I'm trying to say- what I'm saying is do we talk to our neighors who are not as observant as us? Have you ever invited the family on the corner in for kiddush or a friday night meal...or a sunday barBq? I think I'm a cordial person but my Jsecular neighbor doesn't even look my way when we pick up or blue plastic NYTImes on sunday mornings! They are not the ones who are going to reach out to us. It is incumbent upon the organized Jewish community of reach out (i don't meant outreach) to our co-religionists-not to try and make them frum but for CRYING OUT LOUD talk to people-invite them to the lavish Bat Mitvah you are making in the Country Club in July. Solicit their participation to the Hatzolah BarBQ- I have not done any of the above deeds as I seem to be inflicted with the same disease as many of my friends & neighbors. But this is going to end right here and now-today.

9:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Didn't something similar occur in Beachwood Ohio about 12 years ago?

9:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Robbins do not come off very well.

10:33 AM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

25 year resident -

It is important to treat our non-orthodox neighbors with basic cordiality, but I disagree with the idea of "reaching out" to them socially UNLESS for the purpose of kiruv , and certainly not expressly disavowing it. I don't think it's possible to take an "I'm ok, you're ok" approach when it comes to non-orthodox neighbors. To become close to non-orthodox neighbors without caring about their lack of observance sends exactly this message. Certainly having orthodox children associate with non-orthodox children (beyond the occasional pick-up basketball or street hockey game) will expose them to people whose standards of acceptable dress and speech as well as their attitudes towards religion and co-ed interaction, we categorically reject. What message doe sit send to our children if it is ok for his friend and neighbor to wear X, say Y, do Z with a girl, and ignore the Torah? We should discourage our children from such relationships.

To sum up, non-orthodox neighbors should always be treated with gerneral pleasantness and cordiality (as should pretty much everyone else). But it would be wrong to involve them in our lives unless it was for the purpose of returning them to a proper Torah life (and even then, consult a Rabbi, kiruv is not simple - I certainly know little enough about how to go about it, and I'm an expert on almost everything - ;-))

11:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

they didnt mention the victorias secret story!

12:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a public school parent who lives on a mostly religous block. My children play with all the children on the block when time permits. When we allow our children to be children, then we teach tolerance. The world is not an easy place, and shielding them is not the answer. In saying that I can say I do not agree with your opinion, but it is you opinion. You have the right to raise your children as you see fit. That is not how all people see it. Imagine if you lived in a neighborhood, and as soon as your children come out they all ran in. Your beliefs mean nothing to the children who now see a group not wanting to play with them. They don't care about budgets,schools, they want to know why two children next door to them do not want to play. Either way, it is up to the individual. I am personally embarassed with the fact we were portrayed in any newsday article. Even worse page 8 had a local soldier who died in Iraq. Gee our town is more important than a local soldier killed. I don't know call me crazy, but who you children play with is not as important.

12:41 PM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

Anon 12:41 -

As to running inside the minute other children come out, see my comments about basic cordiality (and pick-up basketball games) above. I cannot teach my children to be tolerant of something that I do not wish for them to believe is tolerable,and unfortunately this will impact on the closeness and cohesiveness of the community. That being said I most certainly will teach my children (they're a bit young yet) as I was taught, to act with basic respect towards other people, orthodox or not.

I do appreciate your civil tone in this discussion. Hopefully, more people will adopt it.

12:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand how you feel as it is your right. What the community as a whole has to realize is everyone is different. That is why we live in a country to have the freedom to do as we please. I drive on Saturday, and had people in the middle of the street not move even though they know I am there. I do not blame everyone, there a non observers who do the same. Look folks there a bad and good where you go, blaming one group of people for anything that does not go the way they want is not good practice. It is something none of us want to have to deal with.

1:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I too live on a mixed block where children play together on occasion. We all have different beliefs, and are not best friends, but we are cordial. When one child brings out a snack, they all know it must be kosher. In saying that I applaud the women for saying she has no disdain for others. It is honest. I have friends who claim there neighbors ignore them. What do I say to that. Try to be cordial. There is no reason to be uncivil. People are People, and really, I get stuck behind people on Cedahurst avenue all the time, I do not care who are what you are, my usual comment is move!!! I certainly don't relate poor driving manners to one group. This is New York you know.

1:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I being of the public sector would love to know what the actual number is. I am dizzy with with all these stats. I want to know where is all this money going to! How about the district send out a book District budget figures for dummies. Have a two sections and line item every thing a student gets for this money. Oh, and by the way the reason the special education rejections are less in the public schools is they don't test us. The give a "screening to students, then tell us how the child is too smart to get services. I have 4 friends that happened too.

1:25 PM  
Blogger Goy Guy said...

"I being of the public sector would love to know what the actual number is."

You and everyone else ;-)

I looked through the budget our district (14) sent out this year and the way it's presented make me laugh (except the bottom line)

Without even trying too hard I could see the money shuffle. I don't have it in front of me. I think I burned it. But I remember seeing something with printing/mailing or some such thing. Last year it was found in with the districtwide administration costs. Somehow it disappeared from there, a nice piece of change, too. In the hundreds of thousands. Turns up in the part of the budget with instructional stuff, teachers salaries, books, etc. Like somehow the administrative costs have been trimmed and instructional money increased.

Now I don't really care how much that line item is. If they need $XXX for that, so what, although I doubt they spend much time price shopping. But what bothers me is, what else, if anything, is being shuffled around? It's all smoke and mirrors as usual. The thing is....WHY? Hey, the schools here are expensive, but also wonderful. The faculty and staff (even the ones I don't like) are overwhelmingly professional and helpful, both to the parents and students. Acedemics, music, sports the arts are all well supported. Sure there's some dead wood, patronage jobs and the usual govt. agency waste. Like always.That's another issue.

If things were a little more detailed and transparent in the way they were presented, then people probably wouldn't be so darn suspicious. I doubt there is some big giant scandal stashed away in there. Just lots of money spent for good schools. Like it is just about everywhere on Long Island, NJ, Westchester, Conn., and where ever there is local control of schools and residents who care about them. So why make things so confusing in the budget?

We know that good schools cost money. Outside of maybe hiring the school superintendant, the school board has only ONE duty. Watch the money. And if you want to get re-elected and the budget passed, just convince the voters that you are watching the money. It's not the amount, or the salaries or the building projects, but the sense that the school board isn't doing their main job that people wonder about.

I'm sure the complete financial records of even the smallest districts are way too many pages to print and mail to everyone. But they could be online. Outside of individual paychecks, i can't see why every financial transaction the district makes shouldn't be public. Something goes out to bid, lets see the bid specifications and results of the bidding. And not some brief BS like in the legal notices. How much are we paying for toilet paper a roll? Not just 'Maintainance supplies-$XXXX' How much a gallon for gas for the fleet of cars? For copier paper? For grass seed? Utility bills for each building? Auto repairs? Light bulbs?

Sure you can go down and demand to see the records, but who's got the time? And if we had the time, do the people that work there have the time? Just post it online once and let the school board answer the questions.

Most people won't read it but those that do will be glad to see if someone's watching the pennies. Or not, if that's the case.

And of course all of the above applies to private schools, too. If people are screaming about the tuition what they really mean is "Show me the money!"

4:21 PM  
Anonymous 25 Year said...

Somewhat Anon- Guess you live on the West Side (of Rockaway Tpke) Even us frummies can't agree on much

5:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just want somone to show me where are $24,000 goes to I have 2 in public school. Yes I want the budget to pass, but, I cannot blame anyone who thinks $24,000 a child. The explanation from ALL board members confuses everyone, it is not acurate it is acurate, make up your mind. FYI classes have been combined,24 in a class, so that is less teachers. I was told there is plenty money to fix the high school roof. One portion has been deemed dangerous. So why haven't they fixed it. Perhaps the key to all of our headaches is just the truth.

7:16 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'it can be quite uncomfortable for a non-orthodox person to live in an Orthodox neighborhood.'

Why? Instead shouldn't we be inviting our non-orthodox neighbors for Shabat?

'a frum family discouraged their children from playing with hers'

Why? Can't we just explain to our children that we can't eat their food and leave it at that?

'Have you ever invited the family on the corner in for kiddush or a friday night mea'

We make a point of inviting non-orthodox folks for Shabat meals. Sometimes they actually come!

'It is incumbent upon the organized Jewish community of reach out '


'Certainly having orthodox children associate with non-orthodox children (beyond the occasional pick-up basketball or street hockey game) will expose them to people whose standards of acceptable dress and speech as well as their attitudes towards religion and co-ed interaction, we categorically reject. What message doe sit send to our children if it is ok for his friend and neighbor to wear X, say Y, do Z with a girl, and ignore the Torah?'

It lets them know that they are our fellow Jews and that they are just as important as someone who is shomer everything.

The first Shomer Shabat Jew I ever met was at a college that was well known for its "godlessness" and "anything goes" atmosphere. He kashered the kitchen in his dorm suite and refused to eat the dorm food. Three decades later, I still remember him. It was one of the things that starte me on a long path so that decades later, I myself and Shomer mitzvot. Suppose his parents had adopted that attitude and refused to send him there?

I would also like to put in a strong objection to the idea that Judaism is some kind of fragile religion that requires us to segregate ourselves from the rest of the world lest we be tempted to fall off the derech. To the contrary, it is clear that we are expected to live in and enjoy the world and that the life of isolation is for at most a small minority of very pious individuals.

10:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank You, and some people believe the way you do. My family has been invited and has gone. I don't judge. Last weekend when my son was playing football with 15 religous boys during break three asked if he was Jewish. His answer was yes. He walked away happy with his answer while the three sat there for twenty minutes trying to figure out how he was Jewish. I am a conservative Jew. I worship the way I was taught. I like most want what is best for my children. I really don't care who is on the board as long as I get the answers I want and all the children get the education they deserve. Perhaps if we all work together and not let some divide us we can set an example for all.

11:14 PM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

25 year - I'm quite impressed with your Jewish geography skills. As to us Frummies not agreeing much - you know the old line about two Jews, three shuls.

Charlie Hall - We can't just tell our kids that we "can't eat their food" because there is a lot more to it than that, both in terms of religious observance and in terms of the influences that we should be protecting our children from.

Of course you are correct that in theory they are our fellow Jews and "just as important as someone who is shomer everything." But this message can be (and is) taught without having the children interact overly with kid's who are likely to be poor influences on them. At least in my own yeshiva experience, the concept of "Yisrael af al pi she'chata yisrael hu" (A Jew, even though he is a sinner, remains a Jew), and the greatness of baalei t'shuva (B'makom She'baalei tshuva Omdim, Ain Tzadikkim yachol la'amod - In the place where Ba'alei Teshuva stand, even the righteous are unable to stand) were heavily emphasized.

There is a significant difference between a college age student being out on his own, and the influences that a child is exposed to in his formative years. I went to a pair of secular institutions for my college and post-college education, one with a significant orthodox presence, and one with a minimal presence, and I think older and more mature people can usually handle that, as they already generally have a strong sense of self (although there are unfortunately those who go to a secular college and are lost - know your kid before sending him off).

Finally, inviting over non-orthodox neighbors for the purpose of kiruv is certainly an admirable thing, but kiruv is a complicated enough thing, that one should probably ask a Rav how ot properly go about it.

1:19 AM  
Blogger queeniesmom said...

How sad "somewhat anon", you don't have enough faith in yourself, your beliefs and the beliefs that your children will learn in school that you fear they will be tainted by children who observe differently. Try telling your child "they observe differently from us" even small children understand this and will accept that what you say. how do you think bigotry starts?

Remember - we lost the Beit hamikdosh thru sinat chinam. Please consider whether or not you are continuing this?

For the record my kids are in yeshiva and play with those who aren't as frum or even jewish. Should they be expelled from their yeshiva lest they comtaminate someone else's child? who knows what they might learn from these other kids - how to kick the soccer ball, play jump rope?

2:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The question "why do we have an us v. them" mentality in the Five Towns has an answer, at last, thanks to Somewhat Anonymous:

"I don't think it's possible to take an "I'm ok, you're ok" approach when it comes to non-orthodox neighbors. To become close to non-orthodox neighbors without caring about their lack of observance sends exactly this message."

"fellow Jews are 'just as important as someone who is shomer everything.' But this message can be (and is) taught without having the children interact overly with kid's who are likely to be poor influences on them."

In other words, its fine to take the taxes and commerce from non-Jews and their evil twins the Jewish-but-not-quite-Jewish-Enough. But it must end there, it will end there, and it will always end there because those kids are a bad influence and their parents, raised to drive on the Sabbath, are morally corrupt.

I'll never forget the pain of telling my three-year old daughter that her school friend was not coming to the birthday party, and was not coming to our house that day or any other. I left out from my explanation the part about us being morally bankrupt, spiritually sub-par, and a generally demoralizing bad influence on that lovely child, but I certainly got the message and had managed to chalk it up to paranoia until now. Thanks for explaining.

Orthomom, can you not agree that this is a sad state of affairs rather than a march forward for Judaism? What on Earth are we to do?

10:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OM's non-Orthodox and/or non-Jewish readers should understand that the views of "Somewhat Anonymous" DO NOT represent the views of most Orthodox residents of the Five Towns - even the most ultra-orthodox among us. That sort of my-way-or-the-highway arrogance is repulsive, and we do not believe we do others a favor by being courteous to them or their children. My kids are proud, happy and secure enough in their religious observance that I do not fear if they talk to and play with the kids waiting for the public school bus on our corner. We have invited our non-observant elderly neighbors into our Sukkah and to our daughter's bas mitzvah (not to convert them, but to include them) and our kids go over to check up on them if they haven't seen them for a few days. These folks know all about kosher and shabbos, even if they don't observe the way we do, and my kids learn respect, kindness and tolerance, and the fact that being frum is not a badge of honor unless you behave accordingly to everyone around you. Perhaps having grown up ultra-frum, but not chassidish, in Boro Park, taught me a thing or two about judging who's "good enough" to play with my kids.

1:15 PM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Frum Father of Three, while I admire the vociferousness of your comment, I can't help but wince at your comment about shiksas and shkatism. Everyone's children should grow up to be happy, healthy and loved, right? In expressing your wish that Somewhat should be anguished at a child's choice of life partners outside the Faith, you've only reinforced the point he or she has made. I fear for us all.

2:14 PM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

Ok, leaving aside the hopefully soon to be deleted nastiness above, I think I am being slightly misunderstood, and would like to explain my position and reasoning, and see what people's substantive critiques of it are.

As should have been apparent from certain comments of mine throughout this thread (pick-up basketball games for example), I do not believe that all social contact with non-orthodox children is to be avoided and forbidden. Furthermore, I do not think , as one commenter said that "and we do not believe we do others a favor by being courteous to them or their children". Rather basic courtesy is OWED to all other people, and should as such be given.

What I am concerned with (and had a more cordial disagreement about with some of the earlier commentors) is the extent to which closer relationships are a good idea. I think everyone here would agree that children are influenced by their friends and peers. The basis of my position is that if certain values (see: religion) is important to impart properly to one's children, it is probably best that they not have strong influences that are contrary to those values, not necessarily because those influencing parties are to be disdained, but because the effect they will have on the child is contrary to the upbringing you wish to provide them with.

I do not have the time now to go into specific details of the objecting posts, but I think the above should give a window on my thinking, that will dull the animosity here.

2:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Understood, somewhat anon, but how are you so sure that public school parent down the block has values with regard to raising their children, i.e., what they should wear (unprovocative kids clothing, presumably), how they should speak (respectfully, no cursing), and how they should treat others kids (with kindness and generosity - you've seen Barney - not an orthodox Jew - right?) that are so different than yours? You come off as extremely arrogant and judgmental. Non-Jewish kids are not necessarily hoodlums and delinquents. My crazy frum neighbor actually turns her sprinkler on to chase away the public school kids whose skateboards sometimes touch her front lawn. THAT'S deviant behavior - not the normal kids acting like kids who live on our block. Perhaps that would explain some of the animosity of the young skateboarders profiled in the Newsday article. These kids used to talk to my kids - now they just stare at them blankly or mutter under their breath when we pass by. I don't have to VOTE for their school budget, but I do have to treat every neighbor with respect and consideration - and certainly not like I'm somehow superior in my values and child-rearing skills. Being frum in my opinion (unless you're a baal teshuva) is simply an accident of birth.

3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Somewhat, you've explained your thinking sufficiently. My Jewish family poses a threat to your kids' developing value system. Got it. Please don't invite us to your bar-b-que, I've lost my appetite.

3:11 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Somewhat, I was in a meeting. Sorry it took me so long to delete the comment - which was certainly offensive. People, I'm sorry I have to remind you of this again, but play fair. You can disagree with someone without resorting to nasty diatribes. Anything that doesn't conform to civil discourse will be deleted.

3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is Anon FatherofThree. Sorry if I offended Somewhat or anyone else - it was not my intention. I was just so incensed at his close-mided way of thinking I typed and posted without thinking. My apologies.

Anon 3:09 and 3:11 - RIGHT ON! Anon 3:11 - you and your children are welcome to my house for a BBQ or just to hang out anytime.

As for you Somewhat Anon - you really need to think before you speak (I know, I am not one to talk...) but you need to think about the consequences of what you post how it will resonate with those on this post that are not frum or jewish bchlal. Please also do not represent that you speak for the "frum" community as a whole - because you dont.

3:49 PM  
Blogger Somewhat Anonymous said...

Thanks OM.

Anon 3:09 - I don't find much to disagree with in what you are saying (See my repeated comments on cordiality and basic decency). I certainly agree that being frum is pretty much an accident of birth - that's why I'm so concerned about who influences my kids. There is unfortunately nothing that makes them frum except the way they are raised. I am not assuming that non-orthodox kids are hoodlums (or I wouldn't want my kids playing ball with them at all), but rather that they hold a value system that is wholly incompatible with the one that I wish to my children to adopt. As such, a close relationship between my kid and the non-orthodox kid would be problematic to me.

Anon 3:11 - Value systems include basic religious beliefs. If your Jewish family doesn't keep Shabbos or Kashrus (which is the situation I've been discussing), then the clash of values is something I would be concerned with, even if you are otherwise wonderful and generous people. (Side note: Not making any BBQs until I actually have a home with a grill, which is looking unlikely anytime soon given the local Real Estate market)

Anon Frum Father of Three - I'm fairly certain I have never presented myself as the voice of pretty much anyone other than myself. That being said You make a good point about staying concious of who the audience is, and making efforts to avoid negative misperceptions of what is being written. I will note that the non-public shool parent(s?) early in the thread did not seem to take offense.

To clarify one last time: My position boils down to the following and proposition. Non-orthodox children have basic religious beliefs that are irreconcilably different from those that I want to inclcate in my children. Children are influenced by close friends. Therefore, as a general rule, I would not want my child to be close friends with a non-orthodox child.

4:40 PM  
Blogger projgen said...

Children brought up in a confident, loving home are influenced by their parents, not friends. I have cousins who are frum who played with their extremely secular cousins when they were all young. They grew up fairly close, and only became distant when the frum family made aliyah. The children were teenagers at the time.

All the frum children have grown up to be frum adults who strictly adhere to mitzvot, and are raising their own children to be frum.

Secularism doesn't rub off like chalk. How your children turn out depends on how you raise them, not who you keep them from.

9:14 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

projgen said...

Children brought up in a confident, loving home are influenced by their parents, not friends. I have cousins who are frum who played with their extremely secular cousins when they were all young. They grew up fairly close, and only became distant when the frum family made aliyah. The children were teenagers at the time.

All the frum children have grown up to be frum adults who strictly adhere to mitzvot, and are raising their own children to be frum.

Secularism doesn't rub off like chalk. How your children turn out depends on how you raise them, not who you keep them from.

Progjen, I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.

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Last post for me in this thread for those of you still reading.

To completely confuse those of you who have been attacking me so vociferously, I wanted to make a note about something.

I attended the Chai Lifeline dinner last night and was quite impressed by the Kiddush Hashem that the organization creates. Although they are an Orthodox organization , they offer their wonderful services to orthodox and non-orthodox alike. As one of the speakers said (paraphrasing due to bad memory) "this is an organization that brings together a broad spectrum of people who otherwise usually would not have much to do with each other."

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While I am not religious or Jewish, I can easily see how people interpret Orthodox practices as being, for lack of a better word, a little "off-putting".

With all due respect, please consider what kind of messages that these practices send.

First, at its core, doesn't Orthodox Judaism fly in the face of what we, as a nation, are striving for- full integration?

How can we truly be a part of each others lives, on any level, with all that is restricted? Think about it. Your children are not educated with our children, you cannot mourn with us or celebrate with us if it falls during Shabbos or if we don't keep a kosher home.

Imagine how this country would be if EVERY racial, ethnic and religious group had a similiar doctrine.

I shudder to think of the consequences...

Please do not view this post as disrespectful. I am really just asking, what I feel, to be a legitimate question.

As a side note, I truly have friends across the board and I have personally seen, as I am sure you have, this pose a problem in Jewish families where one family member is more observent than the other.

I find it sad to think of how many pontentially wonderful relationships have been stunted or never were allowed to flourish in the name of ANY religion.

Thanking you in advance for any thoughts on this matter.

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