I Was Wrong
It's hard for me to believe that it's a year after the disengagement, and we are back in Gaza, with the situation in Israel looking worse than it has in years. Looking back, with the clarity that hindsight affords me, at the support I expressed last year for the disengagement, I am willing to admit that my hopes for the pullout actually bringing about widespread change in the situation were not much more than wishful thinking. I'm just not sure that I think things would be diferent right now had there been no disengagement. Maybe I'll change my tune again if and when the situation improves in Israel, and I will reaffirm the lukewarm support for the disengagement I expressed this time last year.
Right now, however, I'm finding it difficult to do so.
Conventional wisdom has always been that when Israel fights back, their military operations succeed only in reinforcing the average Palestinians' support for Hamas and for terrorism, and makes Israel's job fighting terrorism even harder. Well, I can say something similar about the attacks and kidnappings of Israeli soldiers perpetuated by Hamas and Hizbollah in recent weeks. The actions, along with the Qassam and Katushya attacks raining down on Israel, are succeeding, in my view from here, only in turning more and more dovish types into hawks. And the Palestinians do not help themselves or their cause by drumming up hawkish sentiment.
Right now, however, I'm finding it difficult to do so.
Conventional wisdom has always been that when Israel fights back, their military operations succeed only in reinforcing the average Palestinians' support for Hamas and for terrorism, and makes Israel's job fighting terrorism even harder. Well, I can say something similar about the attacks and kidnappings of Israeli soldiers perpetuated by Hamas and Hizbollah in recent weeks. The actions, along with the Qassam and Katushya attacks raining down on Israel, are succeeding, in my view from here, only in turning more and more dovish types into hawks. And the Palestinians do not help themselves or their cause by drumming up hawkish sentiment.
posted by orthomom at 9:06 AM
72 Comments:
wow. great post, om. i give you much credit for admitting you arent sure that you were right.
I was a major "against the disengagement" type of person - but now, (I live in israel), people are saying that it's good they're not there anymore because the army has "free reign" over gaza "to attack" and they don't have to tie up lots of army personell to ensure the safety of Jews that would be there, right in the middle of the war zone.
For what that's worth, anyway.
I'm not sure anyone's really right about this kind of thing ...
It speaks well of you to be able to revisit this.
I was lukewarmly against disengagement, and largely on the grounds that I was doubtful of how much it would increase the security situation. I also felt it was a fait accompli and was just hoping it would go relatively smoothly (as it did). I certainly did not expect it to be quite the disaste rit has turned out to be however.
I never really bought into the conventional wisdom you mentioned above. It doesn't really explain how over 75% of people in Gaza can support the Shalit kidnapping in the post-disengagement world, when they know it will bring the IDF back in. Even if fighting back causes a short term spike in support for the terrorists, its not like they've been lacking support or recruits as it is,and we have seen that the cost of not fighting back is much higher in the long run.
Stop the presses! Om admits she's wrong about something. ;)
But seriously, kol hakavod.
I know how you feel, while I wasn't really for the disengagement, I was holding out hope that maybe some good would come from it. It's nice to see a person can admit it when they were wrong.
Secondly, if it's true as you suggest, that Israel is at the very least in no different a position from leaving Gaza I would argue that to do to those settlers what we did, and to be back at the drawing board is tragic. For what those people had to go through and a year later we are nowhere is in itself a disaster.
I wonder if netureikartanik is capable of expressing himself without using foul language or insults.
As someone who argued with Orthomom (and many others) constantly last summer over the Disengagement, I would personally like to thank her for sharing this post with us.
It's a great sign of character to be able to admit that one's view may have been wrong.
Kudos Orthomom!
Admiringly yours, from all of us at The Muqata.
NetureiKartanik:
HAHAHAHAHAH! You crack me up.
Neturay Karta is in FAVOR of giving land to Arabs...and you're criticizing someone over it?
Thanks for the laugh...even if it is 17th of Tammuz...fast isn't over here yet.
somewhat anonymous- would you be o kind as to define "relatively smoothly" for the rest of us? It seems that we must have used different dictionaries, because as far as I can tell, people not receiving what was promised to them from the government, and protesters being thrown in jail illegally and detained for many days, do not fall under the category of relatively smoothly. At least admit when you're sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes to the facts that surround you.
anon 11:13 - no one got killed and the operation was completed quickly with minimal physical resistance. That counts as relatively smoothly to me, especially considering the type of violence that people were worried about at the time.
I was talking about the actual removal of the people, not the way in which they were treated afterwards, which I agree is disgraceful and wrong.
why can't we all just get along.
NetureiKartanik:
Actually, I think its YOU have the misconception of neturei karta.
Neturei Karta has representation in the Palestinian Authority's HAMAS government -- Moshe Hirsch is the JEWISH minister! Neturei Karta is against the entire Zionist enterprise, and would prefer that Israel ceased to exist.
No real, self-respecting, card-carrying, Israel-flag-burning member of Neturei Karta would have ever written what you wrote about giving away land to Arabs. Their entire hashkafa is based on cowering before the enemy...dare we raise up our heads in pride to live as Jews in Israel.
Neturei Karta doesn't even want a medinat halacha today - they want ZERO Jewish self-leadership till Mashiach comes.
So give it up. I don't know what you are, but you're language is far from that of mentsch, and the content is not that of Neturei Karta.
nk was around for centuries?
That's a great slogan for the NK website: Fighting Zionism since 1492.
nk: depends on if you live in Eretz Yisrael or not. And in any event, it would be nice if you used cleaner language.
NetureiKartanik - I've always felt that there was a special place in HELL for those who give support to organizations who kill, and maim innocent people.
How can you justify expressing support for the likes of Hamas who send their OWN children into Pizza Stores to blow up Moms having lunch with their babies?
I REALLY believe that you simply have no concept whatsoever of what the aftermath of a suicide bombing looks like...Pools of blood running in the streets, body parts strewn about, Maimed and injured women and children screaming and begging for some relief from their agony...
These are your brothers and sisters (not to mention fellow human beings) and you SUPPORT the people that perpetrate these crimes? Your leaders go to these people and break bread with them as one does with an old friend?
I don't care WHAT you think about the politics of...who should run the country...are they religious enough...should we wait for moshiach...blah blah blah...how DARE you cohort with murderers and thugs and then ride a some high moral horse...you and your kind are SICK and have no place in civilized society.
"Conventional wisdom has always been that when Israel fights back, their military operations succeed only in reinforcing the average Palestinians' support for Hamas and for terrorism, and makes Israel's job fighting terrorism even harder"
The convensional wisdom is wrong. History shows that when the arabs are blasted enough, they get submissive. they respond and exploit their enemies' weakness. This is their only strategy.
Modern terrorism began in 1972 when the Munich murders barely registered a yawn. The arabs recognized an opening due to a shift in public tolerance for radicalism and they drove a truck through it.
If the arabs were being blown to bits on every front -- around the world -- you can be assured that the whole tone of the war on terror would be different (i.e. it would be over).
Historically, arabs were cowards who become agressors when given the opportunity and stay invisible when kept in their place.
Steven Plaut has this to contribute and although I really held back for a while, after hearing that Haifa has now been targeted by Hizballah, I'm putting this up but I want to clarify that this isn't intended personally but reflects the feelings of people who just couldn't copmprehend how some people could so misunderstand the situation we are really facing here:
The New Song of the Israeli Left (and fellow travellers)
[From West Bank Story
Music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics almost by Stephen Sondheim]
(to the tune of "I Feel Pretty")
We feel stupid,
Oh, so stupid,
We feel stupid, dimwitted and dumb!
What a pity
That we didn't wise up some.
We feel helpless,
Oh, so helpless
It's alarming how clueless we feel!
And so stupid,
That we hardly can believe 'tis real.
We feel useless
And abusive,
As Katyushas extinguish our plan,
After so long
With the state eating lard from our hand!
(La lalalalalalalalala)
Have you met my good friend Avnery,
The craziest bat in the place?
You'll know him the minute you see him,
He's the one with the henna paint face.
We thought we had love.
We though we were really in Spain.
We offered our love,
We were Hamas-infatuated insane
It must be the heat
Or some rare disease,
Or too much to eat
Or maybe our fleas.
We feel stupid,
Oh, so stupid
That the city should give us the boot.
A committee
Should be organized to execute.
GIRLS
La la la la . . .
We feel dizzy,
In a tizzy,
We feel fizzy and cloddish bovine,
And so stupid,
Yossi Beilin can just go resign!
GIRLS
La la la la . . .
See the stupid Left in that mirror there:
GIRLS
What mirror where?
What can that retarded camp be?
GIRLS
Which? What? Where? Whom?
Such a stupid camp,
Such a stupid plan,
Such a stupid psyche,
Such a stupid me!
GIRLS
Such a stupid me!
ALL
We feel stupid,
Oh, so stupid
That the city should give us the boot.
A committee
Should be organized to execute.
You folded too quickly.
Pulling out of Gaza brought Israel *loads* of benefits, the freedom to act with impunity when rockets fall (and with the world's support no less) being just one of them.
World Support?? Russia, France & Greece have already condemned Israels actions I'm sure there will be more from Kofi and more sanctions and censures ... What World support??
Here is more world support.
President Bush today seemed more concerned about the survival of the Lebanese government than about the lives of Israelis:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/07/20060713-4.html
IMNSHO, regardless of our positions in the past regarding settlements, disengagements, or anything else, we should now all speak as one nation in support of Israel's attempt to defend itself against an unprovoked act of war.
Quote from President Bush, from the above link:
'My biggest concern is whether or not actions taken will weaken the Siniora government. '
the ideas behind the pullout were fundamentally false, to try and create a palestinian state on israel's terms was a doomed idea from the very start
pulling out of gaza accomplished nothing except to retreat further, give the terrorists bases with which to strike deeper into israel currently into ashkelon
by now much of the israeli military establishment has admitted it was a mistake but they were afraid to buck sharon
what impunity does israel have exactly and support of the world? israel has some slight support from the bush administration, but which like the rest of the world is shoving israel towards making concessions to the terrorists
in short has the same 'support' it always did
bush is following the same line every single US president has taken with regards to Israel whether it was LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, etc
aside from Carter who has a special place reserved in hell, most US presidents agree vaugely that Israel has a right to defend itself and then caution Israel not to actually go and use it and when Israel does, they look uncomfortable and say they hope Israel doesn't do too much damage in the process
Let's ask Greece what they think.
Wait, hold the presses ... we got more world support.
Let's ask Amnesty International how they intend to support Israel.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The anticipated outcome as far as sharon was concerned, then, wasn't an illusory peace but a more effective way to fight the war, now we have any enemy with a place they are trapped in.
Wait ... I spoke to soon ... speaking of more World Support .... Let me let the U.N. tell you what its doing now ...
Close U.N. Vote Expected on Motion To Denounce IsraelLink here
The United Nations Security Council is to vote on a resolution condemning Israel for its retaliation in the Gaza region following heavy Kassam rocket attacks. A close vote is expected. The United States wants to postpone the vote until after the weekend, but Qatar wants a vote Thursday night.
The United States is lobbying the council's 15 member nations to vote against the motion, while Qatar is pressing for its passage. A two-thirds majority is required to pass the resolution. France said it will vote for it.
Chaim--the U.S. vetoed the motion.
DB just doesn't want to face facts and reality: the Arabs will not be satisfied with our yieldings and it is they that count because they kill us and want to continue to do so, whether or not we have more or less "world support". In one of our most darkest hours in 1973, Kissinger (and his being Jewish is irrelevant as it only worsens the problem) wanted Israel "to bleed a little" before finally allowing support to be flown in.
CH - in fairness to the Bush administration, they are trying to play both sides here for a reason. Lebanon's new government is anti-Syrian, open to dealing with the U.S., and on the whole no great lover of Hezbollah. Bush doesn't want the Lebanese governemnt to go back to being a Syrian proxy, which could happen if they feel that the U.S. is fully behind Israel's attacks on them. Even Israel is making some distinction between the Lebanese government and Hezbollah. If you look at Bush's actions such as today's U.N. veto, I don't see much to complain about, yet anyhow.
Chaim: Wanna guest blog for me?
:-)
You were dead-wrong about the disengagement and so was I. It has put Israel in a terrible position security-wise. And destroyed thousands of family homes. Al eileh...
Maybe we're being punished for not protesting loud enough about the gay parade week in Jerusalem this August.
Maybe we're being punished for not protesting loud enough about the bleeping terrorists "not building bombs" in the backyard!
Or maybe we're being punished because HaShem knew I'd have to break my fast earlier today. Should I have foregone one of the two pieces of pineapple? Or maybe a bite of the half of the bagel?
(sarcasm off)
Dang, I have a nasty headache. Fast isn't over for another hour or two here.
TO the biggest fan:
I am shocked at your comment about comparing the SD news to what is going on in Israel...what is wrong with you!!!
It only shows how disrespectful you are to others and narrow minded with your opinion as far as Israel and SD are involved (and youdon't even need to share it with me). Because I don't believe that anyone would be happy about the attacks in Israel.
One year after the evacuatuion of Yammit we went to war in Lebanon; almost one year since the Katif evacuation, we're at war in Lebanon. Is this deja vu (all over again?)
I'm also wondering about my previous opinions on some matters, including the disengagment. DovBer's point is nice, mind you.
Am I the only one slightly weirded out by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt supporting Israel in this?
Anyone?
doesn't anyone recognize that this war is quite necessary to the comming of moshiach and that it is more punishment for lach of sufficiant ahavas yisroel and all this nasty talk going on more than anything else?
nu hashem has to make a biur before the rest can happen, so we should repent, and take his patch with loving silence, then IY"H moshiach will come as a result of this war.
Hlaf- they said that about the Gulf War too.
- typo lad: I think you meant saudi arabia, not Syria.
Yes, yes I do.
Boy is my face red.
this is such a nasty war
Israeli Jets Strike Hezbollah Targets in Southern Beirut
olmret is a jackass final you dont bomb lebenon and beruit for no good reason at all probably olmret had some dopes well
id rather have osama as prime minister of isreal if i were beruit i wolud kick some ass angiast isreal
om's biggest fan
I don't believe any civilized god fearing , decent human being is happy about what is going on in Israel. You're an unspeakable bastard to relate two entirely unrelated topics of discussion. Apoligize.
PS Parent....
I always enjoy reading your perspectives on American Orhtodox Jewry as it develops on its own unique path.
For those of us with children now actively across the border into Lebanon and Gaza (I have one of each this morning, and write this at 5am Israel time, so you know how much sleep I got last night), your comments regarding the situation here are completely inappropriate--not for their content but for the timerity of stating an opinion from the Five Towns.
You elected not to live here with us, and make up for it via some biazrre self-approved concept of checkbook Judaism. Worse, you proudly as an American Orthodox Mom shield your children from even doing sherut leumi, which would at least free my daughter from her present combat unit assistance role now over the border in Lebanon within the Golani Brigade.
The ultimate sin of American Jewry, and for what it will be damned in eternity and history, is the sin that even the 2 1/2 tribes did not commit in their pursuit of wealth and materialism -- using my children to do the dirty work of their Zionist delusions from Flatbush and the Five Towns while keeping their children as far from basic responsibilities to Am Yisroel during a Milchemet Chova as possible. Haifa burns, Tzefat burns, Tiveria burns this evening, and your children are safely in bed in Lawrence and Flatbush.
At least have the intelligence to keep quiet out of shame, no matter what your political view.
Tzahal dad, I don't get you. Are you really saying that american Jews are not entitled to opine in any way on Israeli politics? I think that is crazy.
you also think sending your child into a war zone on behalf of klal yisrael is crazy, which illustrates how warped your perspectives really are. Of course you have forfeited right to opinion if you place yourself and your children in the shelter of American during milchemet chova.
What does the term milchemet chova mean to you anymore? You have created this wild self-defined set of terms of halachic observance in Frum America, that have no basis in halacha in history. Wake up and realize the magnitude of your sins.
And at least have the common decency to shut up and stop pontificating, particularly when your position is to fight to the last of MY children, so long as yours are not only safely in America, but your wives literally brag to us that "as responsible parents they want their children home on the next flight" from their seminaries and yeshivot in jerusalem rather than volunteering to at least clean up debris (boys) and serve as emergency social workers for the 20% of the population that is no longer in their homes as of this evening. Twnety percent.
Can you even begin to comrpehend that one aspect of the situation sitting in bed watching CNN? How long did you really think about us before clicking over to the Yankees game?
At least have the intelligence and halachic charata to know when to keep quiet in your shame
Martial Law has been formally declared from Acco north, and across the entire country to Tiveria. No one is to go to work in that region, and all civilian rights are temporarily suspended.
For those of us in the Merkaz, we will receive a ONE MINUTE early warning siren of incoming missiles, which the IDF now concede can reach at least Netanya, Raanana and Herzliya.
So how was Sunday moring Lox and Learning in your local shul? Take the kids to the Yankees game Sunday? Wife out shopping at Clothing Warehouse because you haven't bought any new clothing in 48 hours?
Going to a rally at your shul? Writing a check? No doubt reaffirming just how right wing hard line you are, so long as it is MY children getting shot at this morning.
Calling your daughter (or even worse, your son) to get on the next plane home immediately, and then taking pride in being such a responsible parent?
The maginitude of sin for which American Frum community will be remembered in history is beyond comprehension. Even the 2 1/2 shevatim knew how to act in time of milchemet chova.
Tzahal Father, though I recognize that you have a unique perspective on the war, and I sympathize with your travails, I think your judgmentalism here is reprehensible and more than a little self-defeating. I don't think that focusing your anger on those of us who live in Chutz L'Aretz is the most effective use of your energies right now.
wow. the holier than thou atitude of those who are there really shines during times of crisis. yes living there makes you a better person than the rest of us a certain level. but this kind of rant surely doesnt help anyone and you arent a better person for it.
you make fun of bagels on sunday morning, but im sure you have enjoyed your fair share in the rova or a cappucino on the side walk.
socialized medicine? free education?
is your life in the holy land not all lox yankees? when thing get tough you have tanyas on most of the jews inthe world who are scattered around the globe?
not nice, not fair and it doesnt make you better than them.
al pi halacha until you get your children's tushes on tonights flight and put them in the war zone, at least as supply and relief aides, then you are over some of the greatest aveiros possible. mi'de'uraysa. Period.
If you want to live your life of wealth me'ever hayarden that is your decision, but there are specific halachic requirements that you not only dodge but flaunt in our faces in times of war. Your deli cannot be glatt enough to compensate for that scandal, and history will remember you and this generation of American Frum community for its perfidy.
Perfidy. An excellent word for the present American Frum duplicity.
Was that clear enough? There are over 1 million displaced persons tonight. Put your daughter on a plane and send her into the war zone to assist these people as an emergency social worker in sherut leumi. Put your son on a plane tonight and have him cleaning grease out of tank turrets tomorrow morning safely behind the front lines (well, not really, since the front line is now HAIFA)
And then, al pi halacha, I am obliged to keep quiet about your selection of wealth and comfort over the halachic obligation to live here. Until then, it is time to call your life decisions what they are --absolute perfidy against Halacha and Klal Yisrael.
TF, your attitude makes me sick.
Good, true charata is supposed to be nauseating when we confront the enormity of our sins and their unintended consequences on others.
You were simply doing "what everyone else was doing", and never giving it a second thought. No different than eating treif. Except the lav of not sending your children into battle is so important that in sefer yehoshua there was almost a civil war to completely wipe out the Five Towns on the other side of the Yarden if they don;t send their children at once to battle.
You are making excellent progress on the first steps of kiruv and teshuva.
Now start pumping some blood and sending it over here ASAP with one of your kids, as we are running out of all types.
tzahal father: Why are you blaming the five-towns...or orthomom, for the current situation in Israel?
Your ranting at them isn't going to make anyone stop what they're doing and fly here tomorrow.
See how Treppenwitz posted about "handy things to do" to support Israel now, both inside and out.
And if you have 2 kids fighting our war now -- good for you! Be proud of them!
Exuding bitterness at Jews who honestly care (and even admit they made a mistake concerning the disengagement) will not get us any points, or convince anyone to move here.
Tsahal Father said...
al pi halacha until you get your children's tushes on tonights flight and put them in the war zone, at least as supply and relief aides, then you are over some of the greatest aveiros possible. mi'de'uraysa. Period.
Who the heck made you judge, jury, executioner and posek?
There are people all around the world, many of them doing holy work that no one else will do, for jews all around the world. that doesnt make them the scum you condemn them, just because YOU had the fortunate pleasure of being able to be in israel.
You belittle your own credibility when you make such harsh declaration just like other irrational people.
and have him cleaning grease out of tank turrets tomorrow morning safely behind the front lines (
MY FAMILY ALREADY DID THAT IN PLASOW.
You soundlike you were american once. Im sure you were aware that not everyon here is wealthy - or even wealthy enough to affordin a freggin 1200 plane ticket at the drop of hat.
You were simply doing "what everyone else was doing", and never giving it a second thought. No different than eating treif.
KOL KOREH FOR AM YISROEL
the great tsahal dad has just paskened that all jews who dont live in israel and beiing oyver an issur of eating treyf!
how much humanitarian or holy work do you do tsahal dad? outside of your son training in the army, what do you do on a daily basis for klal yisroel? what do you do in israel to help retreive the many many many lost souls and israelis who hav strayed so far?
People - Just because Tzahal dad made an error of judgement in expressing his anger the way he did (he does have 2 kids serving on both fronts now) -- please go easy on him. Put yourself in his shoes -- I assume you would be stressed out as well.
Tzahal Father-You are clearly an angry, bitter person, and in a time in which so many American Jews are davening and agonizing over Eretz Yisroel, you choose sinas chinam as your path just after the 17th of Tammuz. You do not represent any legitimate viewpoint that anyone should be concerned about.
Anonymous said:
"what kind of humanitarian work, and work for klal yisrael do you do?"
Anonymous--that compartmentalized halachihc observance of doing good deeds in lieu of adherence to explicit halachic requirements because they are exceedingly burdensome or downright scary (such as sending your child into a war zone) is the very definition of Frum/Dati criticism of the Reform movement. You cannot substitute halachic observance with good deeds. Full stop. Nekuda.
I will defer from getting into a discussion of what I do for klal yisrael, not ismply because you would simply be humiliated but because that is the basis of argument of Reform lack of halachic observance.
Don;t you see the bitter irony of your stance? Particularly in the three weeks?
Jewboy,
"You do not represent any legitimate viewpoint that anyone should be concerned about"
Thank you Pravda Thought Police.
This seems to be a uniquely New York Frum rebuttal for anyone voicing an opinion outside the envelope of All if Wonderful in Our Frum Community. I would have thought you learned your lesson when it backfired in the many, many sexual scandals now plaguing the Perfect New York Frum Community.
For the record, I speak for explicit b'ferush halacha. Mi laShem Elay. You may attempt to awkwardly silence, but offer no intelligent nor cogent makor for your bizarre compartmentalization of halachic observance, going overboard on glatt kosher in American and completely sidestepping halachot milchemet chova as if they don;t even exist because, candidly, they are too scary.
Isn't this pick-and-choose attitude to 613 mitzvot the very basis of all Frum criticism of the Reform and Conservative movement?
As an attempt at a serious dialogue with anyone willing to run the risk of new ideas, see my extended reply above under OrthoMom's Gulf War Memories
Tzahal Father: During wartime, I don't think now is the time to lambast Jews to pick up and move here. If people are so inclined, I'll welcome them with open arms -- and if their kids decide to come here to help, then terrific.
However, it use halacha as a basis to hit people over the head with is just not a sensible thing.
During Bayit Sheyni, the majority of the Jewish people lived in Bavel...and not in Eretz Yisrael. So we have a lot of work to convince people to move here, but the stick instead of the carrot will definitely not work...and it will just antagonize poeple, causing the opposite effect that you are looking for.
"New York frum rebuttal"? I almost fell off my chair laughing at that one. I am about as non New York as you can get; I have never lived there nor do I intend to. I still haven't seen any halachic source for all your claims that we should send our children to Israel right now, all I see is someone who should be hellping out instead of blogging and trying to write off the entire American frum community. Get a life.
TZAHAL DAD
YOU ARE THE ONE who began ranking on every single jew in the world who has good reason to be where there are.
YOU are the one who misjudged and prejudged every sinhgle jew in the world not in israel
YOU ARE THE ONE who misjudged and prejudged Orthomom and everyone else in the world who doesnt live the same way you do
YOU are the one spewing sinas chinam and hostility during a time of crisis
YOU are the one who is putting an onus on everyone that is not so simple logisitacally and NOT SO CLEAR HALACHICALLY DESPITE WHAT YOU SAY and as much as the re are mitigating circumstances everyone else might have just as strict HALACHIC REASONS why they ar where they are, whereever that may be.
But now we are all reform jews too. (i supose you think they are bad people too?)
You are not alone in your regrets.
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