Workplace Discrimination?
This story irks me:
STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- Choosing her religion over her work cost a Rossville woman her job.I cannot see how the firing can be seen as anything but de facto discrimination - even if the company gives a legitimate, ostensibly non-discriminatory explanation for it. As I have said before, regarding similar situations, I am sure that Ms. Sands would have been willing to work out some sort of deal with her employers to work a different day that might not be as popular with her co-workers...like, say, Christmas? Bottom line? Until someone tells me that the company forces Christian employees who are on probation to come in on Christmas, this firing was just wrong.
At least that's what Loretta Sands contends in an employment-discrimination lawsuit that appears headed to trial.
Ms. Sands maintains she was fired from her position as a medical service coordinator at the Travis-based Community Resources because she took off two days in October 2005 to observe the Jewish holy days of Rosh Hashanah.
Community Resources counters Ms. Sands, now 58, was fired for violating the company's attendance policy. Ms. Sands took off Oct. 4 and Oct. 5, 2005, despite receiving permission to be absent only one day.
Ms. Sands had been hired two weeks earlier and was on probation at the service provider for Staten Islanders with special needs, court papers said.
... According to court papers, Ms. Sands, who is Jewish, began working for Community Resources around Sept. 19, 2005. Shortly thereafter, she asked for two days off to observe Rosh Hashanah -- the beginning of the Jewish new year and one of the holiest times of the year.
After consulting her supervisor as well as Community Resources' director of human resources and chief operating officer, she received permission to take off one day. Because she was still on probation, Ms. Sands was technically not entitled to any time off, court papers said.
Despite those conversations, Ms. Sands took off both Oct. 4 and 5, 2005, and did not call in to work either day.
When she returned Oct. 6, 2005, she was fired, allegedly for violating Community Resources' attendance policy.
Ms. Sands subsequently filed a lawsuit, alleging she was discriminated against because of her creed.
posted by orthomom at 9:51 PM
64 Comments:
Good point, if the company is open on Christmas.
Awww, and the constant resounding speech of poor, poor us continues. Is any Jew ever wrong in your eyes? Regardless, she wantonly chooses to ignore her superiors, but that's ok I guess. The postman changed his religious thinking during his employment and according to you, his new found religious freedom was being violated, this woman had the audacity to ignore, yes that's right, ignore her superiors who were nice enough to give her one day which she was not entitled to begin with, are you kidding me? You are making excuses for someone who chose to take a job 2 weeks before a holiday, ignore directives from her superiors and doesn't even bother to either have someone call in to explain that she wouldn't be coming in the second day or have the common courtesy to write a note or email prior to her exiting the day before the holiday. When is it ok to fire someone Jewish, according to you and especially after this pathetic attempt at support, from what I can see, it is never! I'll bet if she were Catholic and chose to take off Christmas and the day after, while not calling in, you would be saying oh, well that's the policy. To top it off, she is looking for restitution...ohhh, what a surprise, she worked for 2 whole weeks and is looking for money. You constant cries of anti-Semitism are really getting old, you might want to pick a more deserving person next time for your pathetic pity post...you really make me sick.
OK, now that I have given you and your pathetic supporters someone to attack, have fun...
she had a problem right away when they only gave her permission for one day off. that's when a complaint should have been initially lodged. clearly her supervisors had no idea what the requirements are for observing rosh hashana (which i find strange in new york city). i notice the article does not mention that the holiday is two days, and does not mention that the reason she didn't call in was most probably because she is observant.
from what was written, it doesn't seem as if she was completely up-front with her supervisors about her needs (maybe because the job was new?) but firing her over this? i don't think it's so clear-cut if she wasn't %100 open with them. important details seem to be missing so i don't think we can say for sure whether or not this was justified.
after re-reading, i see that she did ask for two days, but there was no mention of follow-up as she clearly needed those two, not just the one they granted her. did she pursue this? or did she simply disappear for a second day? if she stated to her supervisors that she needed the second day and this was non-negotiable, and that she would not be coming in because of her religious observance, and they fired her anyway, that would be wrong. but if she simply accepted the one day and decided on her own not to show up on the second day knowing she would not even be able to call in to explain her absence, then i'm not so sure the company would be wrong in this case. a person can't just not show up for work (barring medical emergency).
Until someone tells me that the company forces Christian employees who are on probation to come in on Christmas, this firing was just wrong.
Christmas is different, it's a Legal Holiday.
Why on earth would she take a job without making sure, IN ADVANCE, that they would be able and willing to accommodate her religious needs? They should be suing her for jerking them around and making them waste their time and money hiring her, firing her and having to rehire someone else.
Awww, and the constant resounding speech of poor, poor us continues. Is any Jew ever wrong in your eyes? Regardless, she wantonly chooses to ignore her superiors, but that's ok I guess. The postman changed his religious thinking during his employment and according to you, his new found religious freedom was being violated, this woman had the audacity to ignore, yes that's right, ignore her superiors who were nice enough to give her one day which she was not entitled to begin with, are you kidding me?
"Nice enough to give her one day"? "Is any Jew ever wrong in your eyes"? Wow. There was nothing "nice" about her empolyers giving her one day for Rosh Hashana. This place of business in Staten Island, for heaven's sakes, everyone in teh NY area knows that to Jews, two days of Rosh Hahana is as important as Christmas to non-Jews. They should have given her two days. Read the articlke. Even the judge seemed to feel that they were wrong as it would not have harmed them to acommodate her,
Anonymous said...
Why on earth would she take a job without making sure, IN ADVANCE, that they would be able and willing to accommodate her religious needs? They should be suing her for jerking them around and making them waste their time and money hiring her, firing her and having to rehire someone else.
Honestly? I can't imagine asking that as I can't imagine not being given off. I am a nurse who has worked in medical facilities all over the Tri-state area, and I was always able to work out RH and YK, even it meant swapping shifts with my non-Jewish coworkers. Here it sounds like there was nothing this woman could do to make the business acommodate her religious needs. They had a policy and they weren't waiving it.
You have to understand that in 1:14's world a Jew can do no right.
"You have to understand that in 1:14's world a Jew can do no right."
No. You have to understand that in 1:14's lonely world, a gratuitously obnoxious comment that generates two days of back and forth by clueless suckers unfamiliar with the expression "taking the bait" is a delightful way to feel important.
And Maybe Wendrow can swoop in and save us all.
Anonymous said...
Honestly? I can't imagine asking that as I can't imagine not being given off. I am a nurse who has worked in medical facilities all over the Tri-state area, and I was always able to work out RH and YK, even it meant swapping shifts with my non-Jewish coworkers. Here it sounds like there was nothing this woman could do to make the business acommodate her religious needs. They had a policy and they weren't waiving it.
8:01 AM
That may be the case, but most jobs don't offer the kind of flexibility that allows employees to swap shifts. If your job suddenly forbade shift swapping I'm sure you would find one that did. A large operation with many employees doing the same thing at different times is ideal for someone who needs this kind of flexibility. But it is up to the employee to check into this before accepting the job. The article said that another Jewish worker replaced her and was able to make arrangements. The time for this is at the job interview. As an employer I have been asked this before hiring someone and have never objected, but that's me. The way this went down, taking the job and then asking would set off the flashing "troublemaker" sign in my head.
"This place of business in Staten Island, for heaven's sakes, everyone in teh NY area knows that to Jews, two days of Rosh Hahana is as important as Christmas to non-Jews."
What in incredibly arrogant statement, so everyone in the NY Area should know about the religious necessities of the Jewish religion? I'm sure that is because you can quote chapter and verse on holidays regarding the Catholic, Hindu and Muslim religions, right? I only state this because of their large collection of worshipers within the NYC boundaries, as well as what must be your apparent encyclopedic knowledge of all religions.
"everyone in teh NY area knows that to Jews, two days of Rosh Hahana is as important as Christmas to non-Jews"
• Mary, Mother of God (Tuesday, January 1, 2008) Holy Day of Obligation
• Ash Wednesday (Wednesday, February 6, 2008)
• Holy Thursday (Thursday, March 20, 2008)
• Good Friday (Friday, March 21, 2008)
• Holy Saturday (Saturday, March 22, 2008)
• Easter (Sunday, March 23, 2008)
• Divine Mercy Sunday (Sunday, March 30, 2008)
• Ascension (Thursday, May 1, 2008) Holy Day of Obligation (transferred to Sunday, May 4, 2008)
• Pentecost (Sunday, May 11, 2008)
• Trinity Sunday (Sunday, May 18, 2008)
• Corpus Christi (Thursday, May 22, 2008; transferred to Sunday, May 25, 2008) Assumption of Mary (Friday, August 15, 2008) Holy Day of Obligation
• All Saints Day (Saturday, November 1, 2008) Holy Day of Obligation (abrogated because it falls on a Saturday)
• First Sunday of Advent (Sunday, November 30, 2008) Complete Advent schedule
• Immaculate Conception (Monday, December 8, 2008) Holy Day of Obligation
• Christmas (Thursday, December 25, 2008) Holy Day of Obligation
Hmmm, nowhere in there do I see a multiple day requirements, does that mean for every 2 Jewish Holidays, everyone else gets only one day for theirs?
Oh for heavens sake, religion is not an exercise in parity. If it comes to that, Ramadan is one month--shall we all go complain that we aren't getting ours?
Ramadan is one month--shall we all go complain that we aren't getting ours
If they get one month off...yes.
Good grief. OM have you actually checked out the above url, because if you did why would you allow it to be posted? It's not like it adds anything of value to your blog. Come to think of it, it doesn't add much of value to the world period. Gratuitous sexual material at the expense of frum jews--and the author doesn't spell well either. Sentence structure is poor. Has no sense of paragraphing. Not even well done offensive material.
anon 8.09
Ramadan is one month--shall we all go complain that we aren't getting ours
If they get one month off...yes.
and you can feel free to spend the entire month fasting along with them. without the extra vacation time.
Strange thing is that no one in any of the frum communities in SI has ever heard of this woman. She could be a baalas tshuva or an observant conservative jew--in which case using the phone is not considered wrong by them. And OM did not present here the full article where the judge refused summary judgment for either party and remanded the case to trial because there are substantive facts on both sides that need to be decided by a jury. In other words, we are all arguing here without having all the facts or knowing what this woman actually said and did, what the company actually said and did and when they both did it.
I'm no friend of religious descrimination but something about this case is "smelly" and I'll wait for the facts before yelling "foul."
twenty years ago in new jersey...i worked for a large commercial bank as a customer service rep. rosh hashana was coming so i asked for two unpaid days off. my catholic manager said to me" the other jew on the platform beat you to it, so no, you may not take the time off". i told her that this was a recognizable and serious holiday and that i would not be in so she told me she would put me on probation.. after i called my rabbi and the dept of labor in trenton, she relented but made my life miserable..i finally quit after 1 year of employment there. so, these things still happen..the difference is that now everyone sues..
It used to be that simply expending some mesiras nefesh was enough if you wanted to be an orthodox jew in the mainstream workforce.
Today, we're machmir ... if they don't make it easy, and do it with a smile, we sue.
She accepted the job without it being established in advance that she was going to observe religious holidays. Had they still offered the job even with that sticking point, then the responsibility is theirs. As it is, it was hers, she took longer than she should have, and without calling in which itself is a firing offense in an at-will workplace, and so she was in the wrong.
I usually agree at least in part with most of your posts, but I believe in this particular instance you may be mistaken. With her actions and total disregard for a new position and its requirements, as well as her ignoring her supervisor’s specific statements, the fact that she was on probation and chose not to call in effectively abandoning her position, in this particular instance, I believe you may have chosen to back the wrong horse.
Anonymous said...
I usually agree at least in part with most of your posts, but I believe in this particular instance you may be mistaken. With her actions and total disregard for a new position and its requirements, as well as her ignoring her supervisor’s specific statements, the fact that she was on probation and chose not to call in effectively abandoning her position, in this particular instance, I believe you may have chosen to back the wrong horse.
I appreciate your opinion, though I still tend to disagree. Even the judge mentioned in his ruling that he felt that the employer's position seemed discriminatory: "It still appears, at least from the record ... that discrimination may have been the real reason for the termination", and he also noted that the employee failed to show that reasonably accommodating the employee would have caused them undue hardship.
So I'm certainly not alone in backing the horse I'm backing.
No, of course not, since a Jew can do no wrong...ever I guess.
7:07p, that was unnecessary, but I tend to agree with the interpretation of 6:39P
A "Holy day of obligation" for Catholics just means that they are supposed to attend mass that day (at 7 a.m., say, or 7 p.m, or at noon, doesn't matter). It does not mean they have to take a day off and I don't know anyone who does.
No we don't "take off" they are
legal holidays, sooo... we have the day off;)
I started my first job out of College around Labor Day. Iwas young, inexperienced, and my employer was taking a huge chance on me. I was not entitled to any personal, sick or vacation days for the first six months of my employment.
When I explained to my boss about Rosh Hashanna (and Yom Kippur, and Simchat Torah, and Sukkot), I was graciously given unpaid leave. I'm not clear why that should be so complicated.
Had the woman been hit by a bus, and been unconsciously hospitalised for a few days, would that be grounds for dismissal?
Had the woman been hit by a bus, and been unconsciously hospitalised for a few days, would that be grounds for dismissal?
...not exactly sure where you are goin' with this analoy?
I may be wrong, but I believe it is illegal for a potential employer to even ask what a person's religion is during the hiring and interviewing process. Likely, it didn't come up, and she just presumed they weren't the only people on Stanton Island who had never heard of Judaism.
Hearing about Judaism and knowing the ins and outs of orthodox or observant Judaism is quite different. When you work with a jewish person who is having lunch with you at McDonalds--and may or may not have the bacon with their cheeseburger--then what do you know about judaism? When your jewish co-worker takes off only part of a day to drive to an abbreviated synagogue service for Rosh Hashana and then comes into work, or only takes off one vacation day for "personal reasons" then what do you know about judaism? When a jewish co-worker does not leave early on Friday to make lecht bentching because their "Sabbath Services" are scheduled for 8:30 pm then what does this person know about judaism?
Ahavah B. said...
I may be wrong, but I believe it is illegal for a potential employer to even ask what a person's religion is during the hiring and interviewing process. Likely, it didn't come up, and she just presumed they weren't the only people on Stanton Island who had never heard of Judaism.
3:45 PM
That doesn't have anything to do with the job seeker having the responsibility to make sure the employer will be able to accommodate their religious schedule. They can't ask, but you can tell them.
also...
Until someone tells me that the company forces Christian employees who are on probation to come in on Christmas, this firing was just wrong.
That's a pretty ignorant remark. Christian employees are required to work on Christmas all the time. I've done it. No one particularly likes it I'm sure, but that's life. Cops, firemen, EMS workers, airline employees, hotel workers, toll collectors, utility employees, railroad and transit authority personnel, heating service workers, gas station attendants, nurses and doctors, taxi drivers, power plant operators...
shall I go on?
Had the woman been hit by a bus, and been unconsciously hospitalised for a few days, would that be grounds for dismissal?
...not exactly sure where you are goin' with this analoy?
Where I'm going is that while an employer certainly has a right to refuse paid leave to a worker during a probationary period, there will always be exceptions to the rule, where unpaid leave is appropriate.
If a person becomes sick, has a death in the family, gives birth etc during a probationary period, you don't have to pay them, but are you really going to fire them??
In my mind, a religous exemption to the rule would also be appropriate.
Of course, an orthodox person has to be responsible, and not claim every Rosh Chodesh, Chanuka, Lag B'Omer etc, but stick to the days where work is prohibited. And as a matter of good faith, should offer to work on Thanksgiving, Chrismas etc (where possible) to make up for it.
If a person becomes sick, has a death in the family, gives birth etc during a probationary period, you don't have to pay them, but are you really going to fire them??
In my mind, a religous exemption to the rule would also be appropriate.
Of course it would seem appropriate, but required? Not really. It's up to you to bring it up before you're hired. Besides, don't you want to know before you start if your company sucks or the boss is a jerk?
Well, at least the woman has a lawyer willing to take her case to court and a J-blogger willing to bemoan the injustice done to her. She should consider herself lucky. Some of us are just left to the Nazis. Consequently, despite the clear injustice, I am finding it difficult to be sympathetic. Signed, someone who has been fired for taking off Rosh Hashanah, Shavuot and other Jewish Holy Days ... not once, not twice, but many times.
Oh, and each time, each firing was despite a pre-employment agreement. So, employment law and pre-employment agreements are worthless.
Maybe she can find a job where she has to work in an area where she is forced to listen Christian preaching 4 out of 5 days every week right outside her closed office door like I do. Sympathetic? I'm sorry. I'm just not.
Liorah-Lleucu said...
Well, at least the woman has a lawyer willing to take her case to court and a J-blogger willing to bemoan the injustice done to her. She should consider herself lucky. Some of us are just left to the Nazis. Consequently, despite the clear injustice, I am finding it difficult to be sympathetic. Signed, someone who has been fired for taking off Rosh Hashanah, Shavuot and other Jewish Holy Days ... not once, not twice, but many times.
5:40 PM
After reading this on your blog/website...
In the way of introducing myself as a witch and as a religious author - I am an eclectic, self-initiated, solitary Jewitch whose practice combines elements of kabbalistic Judaism, Celtic witchcraft (and Druidry), and Native American shamanism. These traditions are the ancient roots of my known natural ancestries. I endeavor to honor them all.
...it occurs to me that you keep getting fired because you're friggin' nuts. Just a thought.
It is incredible that any employee should be able to tell their employers that they have a right to be off. You take a job with a company and you have to follow their rules. If you don't like it you look for another job. How arrogant to tell someone who is paying you when and where you will take off without settling this before you started. Go ask a non jewish employee of your local shopping places what happens when they want off for a non jewish religous holiday and see what the answer is. WORK OR BE FIRED is the answer and before you all come saying thats not true believe me it is I've been there and have friends who have been there. Look at all the doctors offices in the 5 towns which are of course mostly all jewish, they close for the jewish holidays but yet they are always open for all the non jewish holidays (except Christmas which has become a universal holiday)are you going to tell me that their employees are all jewish? Hardly as I have worked in the medical field for 20 years mostly all in private offices most employees are not jewish and getting a day off for a religious holiday that is not jewish is almost impossible. So spare me your empathy for this person and tell her to go work for a jew they always take care of their own.
My problem is in the fact that the Jews in my company not only get paid days off for their Jewish holiday, they also get paid days off for Christmas and Good Friday.
Whereas the Christians only get Christian holidays paid.
Where's the fairness in that?
honestly christians have a lot of holidays too... infact someone listed them above.... i can't tell you the last time i had off for christmas or easter... i do admit it is unfortunate that jewish holiday's aren't observed the way christmas and easter are... but if christians observed every holiday the way the jewish community does, they'd be fired to. I have a college student in my class that took off at least 10 days this semester for jewish holidays, and i'm sorry but religion or no religion class is important. and i'm sick of doing the work for him to just come in off holiday and just copy.
discrimination or for reporting violations to the authorities. Federal law prohibits discrimination in a number of work-related areas, including recruiting, hiring, job evaluations, promotion policies, training, compensation and disciplinary action.
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You constant cries of anti-Semitism are really getting old, you might want to pick a more deserving person next time for your pathetic pity post...you really make me sick.
Because she was still on probation, Ms. Sands was technically not entitled to any time off, court papers said.
Here in my country, we even dont now what discrimination is.
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