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Tuesday, October 16, 2007

Governor Spitzer Pledges to Support Private Schools

In the news:
Gov. Eliot Spitzer revealed today his next budget will feature a return to his pitch to give $1,000-per-student income tax deductions for parents who send their children to religious and private schools.

The governor's commitment came in a speech to the New York State Coalition of Independent & Religious Schools. His plan drew applause from the 200 representatives at a conference here.

Spitzer said the budget he unveils in January will be "difficult" to plan because of a looming $4 billion deficit.

But he promised to propose the $1,000 income tax deduction, and said the state will come up with at least $40 million to help private schools pay for administration costs such as taking attendance when students are taking state tests.
In the blogs:
Governor Spitzer Reaffirms Support for Parochial School/Yeshiva Education

Speaking today in Albany Governor Spitzer reaffirmed publicly his support for Non-Public Schools and promised innovative help them in whatever way possible from a legal and public policy perspective. His address to the Conference of Administrators of independent and religious schools was warmly received by the hundreds of attendees from across the religious spectrum. The crowd was full of Yeshiva administrators and representatives there in Albany for a show of support to the Governor’s address and for the informative educational sessions that followed. Askonim pleaded for additional assistance to Yeshivos in the form of tuition tax credits, computers, security monies to protect mosdos and additional State aid for reimbursement of State mandated services.
Please call your elected officials to affirm your support for Governor Spitzer's pledge to assist New York State's private school parents.

59 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

He sure knows how to work a crowd. Come now, you know this will never happen. He promised this last year. This state along with this country is on a save the public school upswing. This community may have a lot of private school students, but this state doesn't. Fiscal Responsibility is what you will hear, and the knowledge Long Island is just a small part of this state.

5:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This community may have a lot of private school students, but this state doesn't.

15% is plenty, imho

5:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tell me again how a $1000 tax DEDUCTION (not a credit) is supposed to help me in a neighborhood where making $250K with 3 kids is barely making end meet???

6:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

15% is plenty, imho 3 kids is barely making end meet,

This is what the public school parents keep saying. I can't imagine the stress that comes along with the tuition. Even though 15% of the state is private school parents, it is still not enough to get the backing of NY state legislature. Public school parents maybe the minority in this little area, but State and Nation wide were not. The pre-k busing is the first of many decisions that is going to end up putting the state in control. It is unfortunate, but in the end non public will get less and less from a state run board.

6:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vemen barestu?

7:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why are we even piddling around for a measly $1000? We aren't going to get it anyway. I found a kind of interesting answer online when I was surfing the blogs--makes for interesting reading and there might be a thing or two we could use.
http://conversationsinklal.blogspot.com/2007/10/another-answer-to-tuition-dilemma-i-am.html

9:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yea, one of the ideas was to register all of the Frum children in the public school as a bluff. First off you would never get permission from your individual Yeshiva and we all know you follow your religious hierarchy like lemmings and second, if the schools are as empty as you claim, by your logic simply enrolling them would do nothing but bring the schools to capacity, so go ahead.

11:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting article. Except it's all BS.

"our children would be the responsibility of the public school system in the morning, for free, and then have yeshiva in the afternoon. From a financial point of view the yeshivot would cut their cost for teaching staff at least in half. Their supply budget would also be reduced. Yeshivot would go out of the business of secular education, something they aren't too happy to be in to begin with. Why has this remained only talk?"

Section 109.2 of the education law allows students to miss 1 total hour of school per week for religious observance/instruction.


"to get all the services they are getting the yeshivot have to state that they do not discriminate according to sex, race or national origin. Technically, if a non-Jewish student from Haiti wanted to register at Chaim Berlin the school would have to admit him, as long as he could pay the tuition asked and would abide by the code of behavior of the school."

More story telling. The Law says:

Statement on Nondiscrimination:

Religious schools may select students on the basis of their religious affiliation. Also, the law allows for single-sex schools.

"what would they do if we all came down in the first week of September and registered all of our children in their public schools?

they would need to rent space until money and location could be found to build the new required schools. We are talking about millions and millions of dollars here. They would also need to find and hire teaching and administrative staff for these schools. Add more millions of dollars."

Read "they" as "you." It would be your millions. Budget passing or not. Education Law §2023 permits expenditures attributed to projected enrollment increases to be excluded from total spending in calculating a contingency budget.

1:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous above,

Section 109.2 assumes that someone is MISSING school for religious instruction. This would not apply if instruction either was in the morning hours from 8:00 to 1:00 or 2:00 or was in the afternoon hours, and religious instruction took place during non-secular studies time. There would be no "missing class." Split instructional times exist, so the section would not apply.

The Statement on Non-Descrimination may exist, but so does the Federal statement which says no descrimination on the basis of sex, national origin or race. The courts have reached an accomodation, but that does not mean that someone from Haiti could not challenge the accomodation. Toss a coin to see the winner.

The key in your last statement about Education Law #2023 is "projected enrollment increases." No administrator in Board of Ed projects that all yeshiva students--and all Catholic school students--would need to be accomodated. I read the article to mean an unexpected enrollment of yeshiva students. No contingency budget could possibly deal with the sheer masses of "unknown" students if they were to suddenly register on the first day of school. Maybe the five towns alone couldn't manage the coup, but Brooklyn has far more yeshiva students and probably could. Brooklyn doesn't have any empty school seats. Board of Ed would have to turn to the City, the State and the Federal government, and experience shows that those entities will "pay" to make things go away.

Yes, it would be "our" tax dollars, the same ones we are already paying without getting any of the benefits.

I saw the article as "thinking outside of the box." Maybe it wouldn't give us everything we want but it's better then kvetching that we aren't going to see any relief and leaving it at that. Start with the article's premise and see if there aren't some other ways we can "force" a compromise.

Unfortunately the first anonymous actually stated the problem--getting yeshivas to agree. Even when it is to their benefit, yeshivas are little fiefdoms and the "kings" would rather die then cooperate.

8:59 AM  
Anonymous still wonderin' said...

"Tell me again how a $1000 tax DEDUCTION (not a credit) is supposed to help me in a neighborhood where making $250K with 3 kids is barely making end meet???"

Why don't you us why you think you're entitled to any tax credit or deduction at all!

It's one thing to expect reasonable access to public school services in a district you pay taxes into. It's quite another to expect hand-outs from the state just because you can't afford your neighborhood.

Plenty of people have a tough time. But the state has the right to say, "Tough Luck."

10:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not from the five towns and I'm a little confused here. Aren't most of the yeshivas that the five towns people send their kids to in Far Rockaway? Far Rockaway is New York City. The five towns is Long Island. School taxes paid in Long Island couldn't be used to relieve tuition paid in New York City. Isn't there a problem with asking for services that you pay for in one location to be used in another location?

12:22 PM  
Blogger MDmom said...

anon 601:

if you cannot make ends meet on your income, then there are several options -- someone needs to bring in more money, you need to budget yourselves better, or you need to move to a more affordable neighborhood. there is a world outside of the new york metro area, quite a wonderful one actually, where you could live and pay day school tuition for 3 and more than make ends meet on $250k. no one says you have to live in the five towns, or in new york for that matter.

and if you are really having trouble with your situation, who are you to scoff at any offer of financial assistance, whatever the form?

12:37 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

I'm not from the five towns and I'm a little confused here. Aren't most of the yeshivas that the five towns people send their kids to in Uganda? Uganda is in East Africa. The five towns is Long Island. School taxes paid in Long Island couldn't be used to relieve tuition paid in East Africa. Isn't there a problem with asking for services that you pay for in one location to be used in another location?


(a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ...)

1:54 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

Far Rockaway is New York City. The five towns is Long Island. School taxes paid in Long Island couldn't be used to relieve tuition paid in New York City.


So you're saying that Far Rockaway is in NEW YORK CITY?? ... NOT LONG ISLAND??

Well, whaddaya know.

2:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Far Rockaway is in the borough of Queens, New York

2:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 8:59 am
a few years ago, 2 gentlemen with children in local yeshivas tried to look into sending children to public school for their secular studies and sending them to yeshiva after for religious study (pretty much what the conservative and reform jews have been doing all this time). the public schools were willing to discuss, but the rabbis nixed that idea pretty quickly. i don't remember hearing reasons why other than blanket "no" that the idea was not a good one. the idea was dropped almost as soon as it was mentioned.

2:47 PM  
Blogger MDmom said...

anon 2.39:

last i can recall, the borough of queens was still considered part of the city of new york.

2:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 2:51
CORRECT!

3:28 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

" i don't remember hearing reasons why other than blanket "no" that the idea was not a good one. "

With no intent to ruffle any feathers, here is the god's honest truth truth why the Rabbi's said no. and why few people disagreed:

Sabbath observant, Orthodox Jewish boys and girls who go to yeshiva by and large remain Sabbath observant, Orthodox Jews ... usually marry Sabbath observant, Orthodox Jews ... and have children and grandchildren who remain, for the most part, Sabbath observant, Orthodox Jews.

The same, in most cases, cannot be said for Sabbath observant, Orthodox Jewish boys and girls who go to public school -- even when they attend a supplemental Torah studies program.

If a parent wants Sabbath observant, Orthodox Jewish children and grandchildren, in most cases, they must send their children to a private yeshiva.

3:29 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"last i can recall, the borough of queens was still considered part of the city of new york.

Who cares. The premise of the original post was entirely inane. We "five towns people" don't all send our kids to Far Rockaway yeshivas.

Evidently people who don't live in the five towns don't know too much about local issues and if they can resist the temptation, should refrain from offering opinions based on inaccurate facts. Wouldn't you agree?

3:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

3:29 PM: Oh, there was MUCH MORE on the subject of sending the Orthodox children to public school and supplementing their torah education. The most influential Rabbis spoke out to say, and I am paraphrasing, that "sending your children to public schools would amount to a great sin." These rabbis scared all the parents into thinking that there is a great sin to be had.

As an observant jew, I went to public schools. My parents went to public schools. My children go to public schools. While we embrace our Judiasm a great deal and center our lives around our shul, I feel my parents, my children, my spouse and I have all received an excellent, well-rounded education.

You have to also understand one thing: all of these Rabbis receive salaries and benefits from the education they provide in the schools. We are actually threatening their livelihood when we choose the public school route. Personally, I don't like my faith and my family's faith to be harrassed by the Ravs. But that, essentially is what they have done to most families in the Five Towns.

Our faith remains strong and our children are very well rounded. I have more "finger-pointing" from the frum families than I do from the gentiles.

3:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Look at a map.

Queens and Brooklyn are both part of Long Island.

3:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ANON 3:44 - Geographically, not politically. Big differenc there.

3:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why are we arguing? The yeshivas will just raise tuition by $1000 to give much-needed raises to those overpaid, underworked poor excuses of principals.

4:02 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

" The most influential Rabbis spoke out to say, and I am paraphrasing, that "sending your children to public schools would amount to a great sin."

Even though you're paraphrasing, i wouldn't doubt for a moment that some equally silly warning was given. But regardless of what they have been, the core motivation is related to what i wrote above.

There are thousands of exceptions to this reason. From my point of view, i say, fortunately you are one. But this doesn't mitigate concerns about Orthodox continuity.

As for protecting rabbinic interests, though, while I can be just as cynical, and while there is no question many yeshivas are in the yeshiva business, there's more to the inflexibility.

Putting aside the stupidity that goes on today, the yeshiva day school (all day yeshiva) movement began in the 1940s when R' Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz created Torah Umesorah. His goal was to create a yeshiva day school in every reasonably large Jewish community to stem assimilation, which was exponentially exacerbated by a lack of consistent yeshiva education.

While the public school option seemed reasonable in theory, it was actually a throwback, and a damaging one at that.

I don't know why people point their fingers at you -- jew or gentile - or how you've been harassed; i don;t like being harassed or pointed at or looked down upon, so I'm sure you have more than a right to be upset.

Nevertheless, I can assure you there is nothing sinister or cynical about the vociferous opposition to the half day idea.

4:07 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

" ... to give much-needed raises to those overpaid, underworked poor excuses of principals."

Forgive me, but your comment sounds interesting, though seems to be sorely lacking in detail. Would you please elaborate?

For instance, if their raises are "much-needed," then how are they overpaid?

Also, on what information are you basing your assessment that principals are under-worked?

In addition, what would make someone a "poor excuse" for a principal, and how do you know the principals you refer to as befitting that description?

Finally, would you please provide an example or definition of what is a good excuse for a principal?

Much appreciated.

4:13 PM  
Blogger MDmom said...

sw --

yeah, i'd agree.

i wonder where that all came from anyway? when i was growing up the area, i didn't know too many people who went to far rock for school, though there were quite a few kids from far rock in my school. and now there are so many options in nassau county, why would 12.22 even ask this question? clearly 12.22 is someone who has not been to the area in quite some time.

4:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "much-needed" phrase was an attempt at sarcasm. The day school principals in my area are all prostitutes. They'll bend over backwards for a kid from a super-rich family, but couldn't care less about anyone else. I'll name names, since they all know who they are. And some of them even brag about it!

5:32 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

Oh. I hope you don't live in the 5 towns. I'm pretty happy with the educational system here ... especially since escaping the schools in Brooklyn.

6:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:59 AM Anonymous said...

"Section 109.2 assumes that someone is MISSING school for religious instruction. This would not apply if instruction either was in the morning hours from 8:00 to 1:00 or 2:00 or was in the afternoon hours, and religious instruction took place during non-secular studies time. There would be no "missing class." Split instructional times exist, so the section would not apply."

Public schools are all still open at 1 or 2 PM. Therefore you would be missing school. Split sessions are rare if not nonexistent outside crowded urban areas where they are used to temporarily alleviate overcrowding. People LIKE having their kids in school most of the day. So they can work. Also, public school districts aren't "little fiefdoms" like yeshivas. They participate in interscholastic educational and athletic activities. The district schedules need to more or less coincide on a regional basis.

"Federal statement which says no descrimination on the basis of sex, national origin or race"

From the state website:

http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/nonpub/manualfornewadministratorsofnps.htm#NEW%20SCHOOLS

In order to retain its 501 (c) (3) status with the Internal Revenue Service, a nonpublic school must comply with the Federal government's requirement of regular publication of the school's nondiscriminatory policy...The following portion of Revenue Ruling 75-50 may be helpful:

The following notice will be acceptable:

NOTICE OF NONDISCRIMINATORY POLICY AS TO STUDENTS
The M school admits students of any race, color, national and ethnic origin to all the rights, privileges, programs and activities generally accorded or made available to students at the school. It does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, national and ethnic origin in administration of its educational policies, admissions policies, scholarship and loan programs, and athletic and other school-administered programs.

Nothing about sex or religion.

"The key in your last statement about Education Law #2023 is "projected enrollment increases." No administrator in Board of Ed projects that all yeshiva students--and all Catholic school students--would need to be accomodated. I read the article to mean an unexpected enrollment of yeshiva students. No contingency budget could possibly deal with the sheer masses of "unknown" students if they were to suddenly register on the first day of school."

Right. That's why you aren't allowed to register your kids on the first day of school, unless you just moved in. Existing residents are given a date well prior to school opening to register by.

8:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I found the link to Conservations in Klal, and found the idea of flooding the schools an interesting idea. I also think it would be fun to watch people lined up for hours waiting to fill out forms. You know what else would be fun, to watch parents keep children home this year duing state tests. Think about it the district will not make AYP, and the state will want to know why, and they will have to spend millions to offer state mandated AIS, academic intervention services and the district would be up against a wall, and then they would have to fix the playgrounds and computers, and actually have to acknowledge the schools are being ignored.

9:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry anonymous but Brooklyn certainly qualifies as a crowded urban area, and it does have schools on split schedules. So does Staten Island, so does Queens and so does Manhattan. The Bronx I don't know about.

And our Borough President's Office had this to say about registering on the first day of school--yes you can get the paperwork on that day and be admitted the next. And no, local residents who are not already in the school system do not automatically get notices to register, nor is the notice printed in any of the local papers. It is parents who have to find out when registration is to take place. Should they miss that date they cannot be kept out of the school system.

Even if you had been correct, do you think the impact would be less if 20,000 or more Brooklyn students all decided to "change schools" and register in the second week of school? And what a wonderful hue and cry there would be if any one of the stuffed shirt administrators that the Board of Ed hires in lieu of qualified personnel were to try and deny these tax paying citizens entry to the public schools for the mandated education.

12:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whoa! Where did this come from just wondering?
"Who cares. The premise of the original post was entirely inane. We "five towns people" don't all send our kids to Far Rockaway yeshivas.

Evidently people who don't live in the five towns don't know too much about local issues and if they can resist the temptation, should refrain from offering opinions based on inaccurate facts. Wouldn't you agree?"

I could swear the person who made this statement said they didn't know much about the area and was asking if his/her statement was accurate. And Spitzer's floating the idea of the $1000 was not only for the five towns--careful, your "ethnocentrism" is showing. Nothing like a transplant from Brooklyn who arrives in the five towns and "goes local." Did I miss something vital? Is this blog exclusive for the five towns? OM never covers general interest topics?

12:20 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

Anon. 12:20 How does this sound?:

I don't read blogs and I'm a little confused here. Aren't most blogs with a blue background for Protestants only? This blog has a blue background. Yet, all the posts center on subjects of Jewish interest. Why in the world would the blog owner focus on Jewish issues so often when only Protestants are allowed to use?

The initial premise of the comment is false:

1) All "5 Towns people" (ugh) send their kids to schools in Far Rockaway.

2) Only Protestants are allowed to visit blogs with a blue background.

Anyone can write and think what they want, but it struck me as bad form for someone to acknowledge ignorance, then proceed to present a grossly inaccurate factoid, and then go one to base a series of pointed arguments premised entirely on their admittedly uneducated assumption.

While you're certainly entitled to disagree, I thought the comments was supremely ridiculous and justifiably mock-worthy.

10:24 AM  
Anonymous anonymous said...

still wondering,

And this is in support of what?
"I don't read blogs and I'm a little confused here. Aren't most blogs with a blue background for Protestants only? This blog has a blue background. Yet, all the posts center on subjects of Jewish interest. Why in the world would the blog owner focus on Jewish issues so often when only Protestants are allowed to use?"

If you are trying to make an analogy to this blog and the five towns, you didn't succeed. There is absolutely no indication posted anywhere that only things of interest to the five towns will be presented, nor that only those residing in the five towns may post. No blue in sight.

Last I looked, the SY community is still firmly entrenched in Brooklyn. And yet, here, on your "blue" blog is an article pertaining to it. If we follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, OM should not be discussing the SY community because she doesn't live there and, therefore, anything she says is a "factoid" based on second-hand or heresay evidence. Get real.

By the way, grammar has not changed. When a sentence ends with a question mark it indicates that someone is asking something. The anonymous who posted about where five towns people send their kids to school did indeed use that question mark. There is no false initial premise, since there was no initial premise at all--merely a question. The rules of logic say that a question cannot be considered a premise.

And actually, the comments about the tax ramifications vis a vis Long Island vs. New York City have some basis in fact. Paying school taxes in the five towns does not entitle you to ask for services that other five towns' residents get if the school your children are attending is not in Long Island. In a New York City school you are only entitled to ask for the services that apply in that venue. There are, of course, some services that are state mandated, and would apply in both locales, although probably not equally.

And since you are such a stickler for detail, I'm sure you meant to say "the comments were," not "the
comments was." Yes indeed, the devil is in the details.

1:59 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2:05 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"There is absolutely no indication posted anywhere that only things of interest to the five towns will be presented, nor that only those residing in the five towns may post. "

Above all, please forgive me for offending you with my grammar. There's no excuse for lousy prose.

That said, i wish you would have read everything as carefully as you proofread my comment -- although to your credit, you are reading quite a bit too much into my offhand, and quite apt, analogy.
No deeper meaning, I assure you.

2:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why are we arguing? The yeshivas will just raise tuition by $1000 to give much-needed raises to those overpaid, underworked poor excuses of principals.

I don't know how much principals make but as a former Rebbe in a local yeshiva we weren't paid enough to make ends meet.

5:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"I don't know how much principals make but as a former Rebbe in a local yeshiva we weren't paid enough to make ends meet."

That's a shame. If you worked in a public school, you, along with everyone in the community, would know exactly what your principal made. Which wouldn't be 2-3 times a teachers salary. You would also be able to feed your family.

6:24 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

Sounds like a good deal.

Do you know if there are any openings for Rebbeim in District 15?

if need be, I'd take Dist. 14.

Please let me know.

9:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the "Rebbe"--you should've worked in a MO day school, not a yeshiva. You would've made a cushy six-figure salary and gotten lots of freebies.

2:48 PM  
Blogger Ahavah B. said...

Of course he's happy to give a tax deduction to all private school students - if they all suddenly started going to public schools, the cost would be enormous, far more than $1000 dollars. As long a significant percentage of parents choose private schools, their tax money gets to support other people's public schoolchildren. If these parents en masse suddenly couldn't afford private school, the public schools would have less money to go around and could not raise taxes significantly enough to cover the added population. All this means is that the economy is getting so bad that the governor is seeing more parents pull their kids from private schools and make them his problem. To try and prevent more of that - he offers a tax break. He WANTS to keep more kids out of public school. That's the only real goal here.

11:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"As long a significant percentage of parents choose private schools, their tax money gets to support other people's public schoolchildren...He WANTS to keep more kids out of public school. That's the only real goal here."

Hmmm. So If that's the secret plan, then maybe he'll start a program to keep people from having kids at all. $1000 for a vasectomy. $500 bonus for Republicans ;-)

7:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course he's happy to give a tax deduction to all private school students - if they all suddenly started going to public schools, the cost would be enormous, far more than $1000 dollars. As long a significant percentage of parents choose private schools, their tax money gets to support other people's public schoolchildren. If these parents en masse suddenly couldn't afford private school, the public schools would have less money to go around and could not raise taxes significantly enough to cover the added population. All this means is that the economy is getting so bad that the governor is seeing more parents pull their kids from private schools and make them his problem. To try and prevent more of that - he offers a tax break. He WANTS to keep more kids out of public school. That's the only real goal here.

You're an idiot...

5:20 PM  
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