Shabbat at the JCC
The topic of the week seems to be the operating of JCC's on Saturdays and Jewish holidays. In this piece from the NY Sun, the Staten Island Orthodox community is up in arms over their local JCC planning to remain open on Saturdays. And the topic in general of JCC's operating on Shabbat and holidays is addressed in this week's Jewish Week as well.
In Staten Island, the JCC seems to have gone to great pains to remain inclusive to all members of the Jewish community. They have instituted a schedule of separate swimming hours for men and women, as well as a Sunday sports program to acommodate Shabbat observers. The question seems to be whether the JCC should be similarly inclusive of non-observant Jews by allowing them the option of recreating on Saturdays. My knee-jerk response was that it seems to me to be unreasonable for Staten Island's Orthodox community to expect a non-Orthodox Jewish association to follow rules that they do not consider applicable to them. Though I do feel that it would be great if the JCC would have agreed instantly to close on Saturdays to minimize the public desecration of Shabbat, it just seems unrealistic in the year 2006 to have that expectation, and seems like the Orthodox who oppose it are themselves risking being seen as less then inclusive. When I mentioned the topic to OrthoDad, however, he had a different take. While he agrees that it might be an unrealistic goal for the Staten Island Orthodox community, he feels that their uproar is perfectly justified. As he pointed out, as Orthodox Jews, though we might respect those who are not observant, we should never view that as a desirable life choice, and no amount interest in being inclusive can stand in the way of that inescapable fact. And so although my thoughts on the matter tend toward more of a live-and-let-live kind of attitude, I can see where my husband has a point.
He also pointed out that the Orthodox community in Baltimore, MD organized an uproar over a similar proposal by the local JCC to open on Saturdays, and that they were successful in getting the proposal rejected.
Interestingly, some of the complaints in the Jewish Week piece come from a family who are self-described as "somewhat observant" Conservative Jews who objected to the fact that the 92nd St. Y had scheduled some of their son's art classes over Sukkot and Simchat Torah, which actually tells us that this issue isn't just an Orthodox one.
So what's my word on the subject? I can understand JCC's remaining open on Saturdays and holidays - but I would love to see them draw the line at doing so only for Shabbat and Yom Tov programming, especially as the articles point out that most do not allow money to change hands on those days. I am aware that there are people who probably rely on these associations for much of their Jewish connections, and I can understand such programs' value. Still, the thought of an organization calling itself a Jewish one and yet routinely scheduling extracurricular classes of a non-Jewish theme, scheduling sports leagues, or opening their gym on Shabbat and holidays does get to me. Does it get to me enough to stand outside and protest? Well, probably not. But I'm not sure that the fact that in this day and age, I'm so inured to the trangression of Shabbat that I can shrug it off is something to be particularly proud of.
In Staten Island, the JCC seems to have gone to great pains to remain inclusive to all members of the Jewish community. They have instituted a schedule of separate swimming hours for men and women, as well as a Sunday sports program to acommodate Shabbat observers. The question seems to be whether the JCC should be similarly inclusive of non-observant Jews by allowing them the option of recreating on Saturdays. My knee-jerk response was that it seems to me to be unreasonable for Staten Island's Orthodox community to expect a non-Orthodox Jewish association to follow rules that they do not consider applicable to them. Though I do feel that it would be great if the JCC would have agreed instantly to close on Saturdays to minimize the public desecration of Shabbat, it just seems unrealistic in the year 2006 to have that expectation, and seems like the Orthodox who oppose it are themselves risking being seen as less then inclusive. When I mentioned the topic to OrthoDad, however, he had a different take. While he agrees that it might be an unrealistic goal for the Staten Island Orthodox community, he feels that their uproar is perfectly justified. As he pointed out, as Orthodox Jews, though we might respect those who are not observant, we should never view that as a desirable life choice, and no amount interest in being inclusive can stand in the way of that inescapable fact. And so although my thoughts on the matter tend toward more of a live-and-let-live kind of attitude, I can see where my husband has a point.
He also pointed out that the Orthodox community in Baltimore, MD organized an uproar over a similar proposal by the local JCC to open on Saturdays, and that they were successful in getting the proposal rejected.
Interestingly, some of the complaints in the Jewish Week piece come from a family who are self-described as "somewhat observant" Conservative Jews who objected to the fact that the 92nd St. Y had scheduled some of their son's art classes over Sukkot and Simchat Torah, which actually tells us that this issue isn't just an Orthodox one.
So what's my word on the subject? I can understand JCC's remaining open on Saturdays and holidays - but I would love to see them draw the line at doing so only for Shabbat and Yom Tov programming, especially as the articles point out that most do not allow money to change hands on those days. I am aware that there are people who probably rely on these associations for much of their Jewish connections, and I can understand such programs' value. Still, the thought of an organization calling itself a Jewish one and yet routinely scheduling extracurricular classes of a non-Jewish theme, scheduling sports leagues, or opening their gym on Shabbat and holidays does get to me. Does it get to me enough to stand outside and protest? Well, probably not. But I'm not sure that the fact that in this day and age, I'm so inured to the trangression of Shabbat that I can shrug it off is something to be particularly proud of.
posted by orthomom at 10:26 AM
33 Comments:
This brings to mind a story of when I an MO lived in Flatbush and relied upon the Eruv, only to be called a macahall shabbat for pushing my child to shul. It cuts both ways. If the Orthos want the pool hours they need to be a little flexiable, or resign as a member.
If the Orthos want the pool hours they need to be a little flexiable, or resign as a member.
I agree from a realistic point of view. They want inclusiveness, they should have to show the same quality towards others. Orthodad was just pointing out the fact that as an Orthodox Jew, my hands-off policy toward the actions of other Jews isn't necessarily the right one, even if it feels right. His point is that I SHOULD care if the local JCC has Saturday hours, even if my first reaction is not to care.
Make your point publically (as u have and move on). If the JCC gets an ortho board the schedule will change.
Unlike the holy roller in Flatbush who yelld at me for 2 blocks
inclusiveness
This topic has come up many time here in the 5 towns. There was amove a # of years ago to "invite" your neighbor to shul, but many were worried how should I react when they recipricate and want me to come to their reform or conservative service. Live and Let live.
The JCC of the Five Towns wants open a mixed use with separate hours pool and gym on Temple Israel Central Avenue proeprty with assurances of their Shmeris Shabbos but is the other JCC's are proof of what could happen then we have more to worry about. If you to JCC of FIve Towns web site you will see there are only two orthodox board members and that can change any time. Also nothig will stop the Temple Israel members from renting the pool privately for a pool party bar mitzva on Shabbos. They already have weddings on Shabbos and that is a reform Jew's choice but why should the orthodox communitiy want to encourage a new JCC in the heart of Lawrence?
The difference, Anonymous, is that the majority of the 5T community is observant and JCCs do tend to respond to the wishes of their members. If there's no demand for Shabbat opening, it won't happen. Again, look at Baltimore.
Don't forget, the new JCC will be serving the whole 5T community--frum people included.
Personally, I feel (and have always felt despite varying levels of observance) that Jewish organisations should respect Jewish tradition so that all can participate. Even when I happily ate anything treif, I believed that Hillel/the JCC/etc should serve kosher food and that they should respect Shabbat and Yom Tov. For me it's about a commitment to Jewish identity and tradition, and it never offended me that I couldn't go to the JCC pool on Shabbat.
I understand why the Orthodox community would be upset about this, it is not hard to follow. At the same time I want to ask a general question about their goals.
We know for a fact that some Jews are never going to be "Torah Observant." They are not going to keep Kosher, they are not going to be Shomer Shabbos. However, if we give them a place at the table they will come. And not only will they come some of them will have family/friends that come along too and it is possible that their exposure might lead to something more.
Several of my friends who are BT got started in a similar fashion.
IMO, The point here being is that if the Orthodox community wants more Jews to head down their derech inclusiveness is the best policy.
IMO, The point here being is that if the Orthodox community wants more Jews to head down their derech inclusiveness is the best policy.
Excellent. Is't that Chabad's approach. We will tolorate your actions if you will participate.
I'm not sure what the question is here.
To clarify. The SI JCC is giverned by secular jews. They want to be open of shabbat for use of the facilites (sport etc), amybe some religious. The ortho community is upset about this. While no on is questioning that the orthos consider those who use the JCC on Shabbat for non religious purposes to be mechalal shabbat, obviously those who so use the facility do not consider them selves to be mechallal shabbat, but still consider them selves to be good jews, beacuse they are in part members of the JCC, so
a - do we take otherwise unaffiliated jews, and unaffilliate them because the orthos want to have seperate swim hours and a shomer shabbat JCC, or
b- do the ortho's show their displeasure in non violent means (resign, join and overcome the non religious majority and change the rules etc)??
My feeling. B
That's the Staten Island Advance, not the NY Sun.
I remember seeing the famous bumper sticker in Baltimore, "Keep the JCC closed on Shabbos" -- on a car driving ON Shabbos!
Jameel @ The Muqata said...
I remember seeing the famous bumper sticker in Baltimore, "Keep the JCC closed on Shabbos" -- on a car driving ON Shabbos
WHOO, Jameel is in an orthomom thread. My 2 favorite bloggers
Gee, it seems a bit tough living in Galus.
And btw, that's it? You're back blogging and nary a word about the hiatus?
nary a word about the hiatus?
orthomom is smart. If she discusses her hiatus it might lead on as to where she was and then her cover is blown.
Here in the Bronx, the Riverdale Y is closed on Shabat and Yom Tov, but Bronx House has been open on Shabat for decades. Bronx House mostly serves a non-Jewish clientele today -- one of the few such Jewish institutions in the New York area. But Riverdale is still mostly a non-Jewish neighborhood, and most of the Jews are non-observant. I vaguely remember Rabbi Avi Weiss saying a year ago that 3/4 of the Jews in Riverdale would not enter *any* shul on Yom Kippur (not even a Reform or Conservative shul). That is in spite of three decades of efforts by one of the most successful kiruv rabbis anywhere -- Rabbi Weiss!
I had intended to mention in the previous comment that both Bronx House and the Riverdale Y have had separate single-sex swimming times for some time, even though, as mentioned, neither Pelham Parkway nor Riverdale are predominently Orthodox.
ymedad:
"Gee, it seems a bit tough living in Galus."
i think you have the same disputes in your neck of the woods as well.
Yes, but here in Shiloh, if things get really bad, we can shoot back.
Just because we are religious Jews, and we have non-religious Jews who come to us, we do not have to bend over backwards to help them be mechalel.
The finger that you are pointing can be pointed right back at you. The same thing can be said about you.
If you are cold does the whole world have to wear a sweater.
You may not like it, but there are millions of Jews who are not Shomer Shabbos who do not feel badly about it. They don't spend a moment feeling guilty. They don't see this as a problem and if you ask them they might say something like
People around us will acclimate to our schedule as we do to the schedules of other facilities we use.
we do not have to bend over backwards to help them be mechalel
If you are a member of the JCC does that mean that you are fostering mechalal shabbat??
If you see a non-religious jew being mechallal is it your obligation to stop them??
Its the same argument by those who watch TV and dont like what they are seeing. Turn it off or change the channel.
If you dont like what the JCC is doing don't join.
okay well here we go
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In a community where the JCC wanted to open on saturday only for cultural and educational programs, the local Orthodox rabbi objected, saying that the greater sin was in tempting people to violate shabbos by having to drive to the JCC. The president of the JCC suggested that the rabbi close his shul on saturday for the same reason, since his president and others drove there every Saturday and parked a few blocks away.
In a community where the JCC wanted to open on saturday only for cultural and educational programs, the local Orthodox rabbi objected, saying that the greater sin was in tempting people to violate shabbos by having to drive to the JCC. The president of the JCC suggested that the rabbi close his shul on saturday for the same reason, since his president and others drove there every Saturday and parked a few blocks away.
this has nothing to do with a community like SI or the 5 towns. Maybe out of town.
Thr fact of the matter is the JCC is a member orginization. No one is forced to join, just like no one is forced to join any other orginzation. You don't like how they operate, take over the management or resign as a member. The premise that the JCChas to bend to the whims of the community that is a minority is foolish. They people who will travel ther by car on Shabbat do not consider their action mechallal they are not enligthined as us orthos, and by enforcing a shomer shabbat rule for them in an orgnization that is only nominally religious is foolish. Protest and or resign but don't for a minuite think that if the orthos come into power and lose on sahbbat that the nonorthos will stay as members. There has to be some happy medium.
And now for a very serious comment:
In my yishuv, there is almost a 50-50 mix of secular and religious Jews. When we built a municipal pool a few years back, the issue of being open on shabbat came up. Both sides were extremely adamant in their desire to keep it open or closed...and since unity was the most important issue at hand, we worked out the following compromise.
The pool would remain open on shabbat, HOWEVER, there would be no financial transactions available; if you wanted to go to the pool on shabbat, you needed to either be a member (and just show your membership card) or purchase tickets in advance before shabbat. No cash registers were open...if you didn't have a ticket; tough luck. Additionally, there would be no concession stand open on shabbat, so no food would be cooked or sold.
Granted, this is not the ideal halachik situation for those who insisted on keeping it closed on shabbat; people would still drive to the pool, people would still swim and shower...However, the Kashrut of the concession stand would remain intact and the pool as a Jewish rec center would not be michalel shabbat by charging money.
On the other hand, the people using the pool were not 100% thrilled either, as they couldn't buy food there, and the issue was a minor inconvenience.
The bottom line is -- the solution works.
As important as it was for both sides to have their viewpoints validated, it was far more important for us to continue living as a united community.
With all the disharmony going on in our universe, I'm glad that we managed to pull ourselves together and do the right thing.
Jameel, great solution, but the orthos here are more militant then those of u in the mquata, and they have an all or nothing attitude.
anonymous: Actually, I disagree (though I'm not personally knowledgeable about the Staten Island JCC). Who actually CARES about the JCC to begin with from an Orthodox perspective (and who uses it?). If anything, it's Modern Orthodox or the Left Wing Yeshivish crowd -- and they are not as "militant" as the crowd to the right of them.
Honestly? I think this is a perfect opportunity for Staten Island to attempt to come up with a mutually agreeable solution.
Jameel-I love the solution. I don't think you create a respect for Shabbat by shoving it down people's throats. But, by creating institutional policy that is Shabbat friendly, the chance of creating respect for the day is much higher.
Jameel,
That is a solution that I can agree with. I like it.
Great solution, Jameel. It's right in line with my feelings on the subject.
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