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Saturday, November 11, 2006

Agudah Advertising

From the Agudah Convention advertising insert in this week's Hamodia:

CONVENTION 2006
GET THE ANSWER TO THESE AND OTHER COMPELLING QUESTIONS
...Have bloggers declared open season on Torah Authority?

I look forward to hearing reports from my operatives on the answers the Agudah provides to this "compelling question".

45 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is it so ridiculous?-when bloggers disagree with the Vaad they are treated to invectives on the blog as if they had declared war on Torah.

9:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Is it so ridiculous?-when bloggers disagree with the Vaad they are treated to invectives on the blog as if they had declared war on Torah."

i think you are proving the point here

9:32 PM  
Blogger Ezzie said...

...Have bloggers declared open season on Torah Authority?

Hmm, that's a fair and balanced question.

10:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think they got the question backwards.

10:41 PM  
Blogger Shifra said...

Ah it's all about the phrasing.
Torah "Authority" - not Torah.
This authority was given to the Rabbanim by the people, and the people can choose to reject it when things get out of hand.

My husband says "Open season on STUPIDITY! And it's about time!"

10:47 PM  
Anonymous yisroel said...

Agudah will lose. WE will win. They are wrong. We are right.

They will collapse and implode. We will continue on for many years to come.

They know every word that comes out of their mouth (or doesn't come out) will be super scrutinized. Finally,they know in their hearts (if they have one) that their time is coming to an end.

10:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

not sure they will lose, but it is true that their every word is scrutinized now. that will only make them more careful and resposible. bloggers have done a great service.

11:10 PM  
Blogger Leapa said...

I'm in the midst of a series on this subject @ frumnet.blogspot.com. And IY"H, Ortho, I'll be an operative there.

11:11 PM  
Anonymous yisroel said...

Leapa,

You are our eyes and ears. Make sure you get some good video.

11:17 PM  
Anonymous yisroel said...

That's funny. Agudah declared open season on YU and others for the past 50 plus years.

Hey Agudah, As the old saying goes, if you can't take the heat,stay out of the kitchen !!!

11:21 PM  
Anonymous yisroel said...

I think that Agudah has to come out with a new takana. Nobody should have a computer or the internet,even for business.

Just like Agudah will defend a man's right to wear a yarmulka at work,they will have to defend a frum person from not having a computer at his desk. Even if he or she is a computer programmer !!

Don't put anything past them.

11:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The best thing about blogging is the anonymity. You could be shaking a rosh yeshiva, rov or rebbe's hand by day and then bash him in the evening.

12:38 AM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Just wait till You Tube "declares war on Torah Authority."

10:45 AM  
Anonymous Your conscience said...

Anonymous 12:38AM
The best thing about blogging is the anonymity. You could be shaking a rosh yeshiva, rov or rebbe's hand by day and then bash him in the evening.

You are not as anonymous as you think. G-d sees ALL.

2:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Conscience,

How do you propose speaking about a vital issue (e.g child molestation) to a respected figure and then having him do nothing about it or thinking that you are a complete meshuganna ??

5:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

G-d sees ALL


I hope the Rabbis of the Vaad believe that.

5:15 PM  
Blogger Honestly Frum said...

I think it was Agudah that has declared open season on Torah Authority. Who among the blog world feels that we should go there and protest these people for once again censoring the masses instead of taking some personal responsibility for the shortcomings of their community. Maybe, just maybe, it is not the bloggers but a generation of people that are taught to only respect their rabonnim and their community leaders and look down upon everyone else and kids who grow up with a sense of entitlement that they are going to sit and learn in kollel their whole lives and be supported and G-d forbid they should look for a job or go to college. Are these issues also going to be addressed or is the Agudah once again going to shirk personal responsibility and once again blame outside influences for all of their problems.

8:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SHIFRA said:
Ah it's all about the phrasing. Torah "Authority" - not Torah. This authority was given to the Rabbanim by the people, and the people can choose to reject it when things get out of hand.


What utter nonsense (or rather ignorance) "This authority was given to the Rabbanim by the people" - It is given to them by G-d ...see Devarim 17 11


לֹא תָסוּר מִן הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל

See Rashi over there as to how all-encompassing the power given to them is.

1:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
SHIFRA said:
Ah it's all about the phrasing. Torah "Authority" - not Torah. This authority was given to the Rabbanim by the people, and the people can choose to reject it when things get out of hand.


What utter nonsense (or rather ignorance) "This authority was given to the Rabbanim by the people" - It is given to them by G-d ...see Devarim 17 11


לֹא תָסוּר מִן הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל

See Rashi over there as to how all-encompassing the power given to them is.

1:47 AM


Who is writing utter nonesense as relevant to the Vaad question?
We don't have a Sanhedrin today-
most important dangers in relying on Rashi. May I suggest that you take out the Torah Temimah on the same pasuk for the 2 other explanations of that pasuk. By memory here they are-but don't believe me check me.
Alternate explanation 1-when do you have to listen to chazal when it is not clear to you what is right or wrong then of course listen to them because they have more knowledge than you-but if it isclear to you don't listen to them. After all no one can tell you to violate the Torah-you are ultimately responsible for it.
Alternate explanation 2-I might have thought that I must listen to our Rabbis on everything-Talmud lomar-no one listens to them when what they say is right is right and what they say is left is left.
It might pay to read Rabbi Michael Broyde's letter to his schul from about 10 years ago-available on line about powers and duties of a Rav.

5:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How sad...

Bloggers have only declared war on those who use torah to cloak their immoral and disgusting behavior...

I guess the convention is not dealing with molestation, abuse, rape, or the charedi population of Ottisville, NY.

What a shame, tell the bloggers there is still more to be done...

12:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How would the Agudah know about bloggers? Didn't they asser the internet?

12:45 PM  
Blogger No Blind Faith said...

The best thing about blogging is the anonymity. You could be shaking a rosh yeshiva, rov or rebbe's hand by day and then bash him in the evening.

12:38 AM

As a frum jew what satisfaction do you get from "bashing" a rosh yeshiva or rebbe? I am still confused from all the hullabalu and horrible things that have been said on the GG blogs. I might not have "blind faith" but I have not been bashing the Rabbonim. I really don't understand the need to "bash" anyone.

1:17 PM  
Blogger No Blind Faith said...

How do you propose speaking about a vital issue (e.g child molestation) to a respected figure and then having him do nothing about it or thinking that you are a complete meshuganna ??


Is the Agudah planning on addressing this issue or are they going to conveniently skip over it in favor of "blog bashing"?

1:19 PM  
Blogger No Blind Faith said...

Can we start a petition and get enough signatures, for a petition that reads "if you are going to speak about bloggers we, the parents in the frum community demand that you address the issues that concern us the most....Child molestation and how you the head of the Rabbinic Authority plan to investigate and punish the perpetrators and violators of the worst offense against the innocense of our children". "Secondly, we demand an answer to the epidemic of Yeshivas throwing our "less than perfect" children into the streets. If Hashem wanted all children to be perfect he would have created all of them exactly the same."

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stop knocking the Agudah.
The agudah is the heimishe velt's greatest employer of the otherwise unemployable.

3:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Secondly, we demand an answer to the epidemic of Yeshivas throwing our "less than perfect" children into the streets. If Hashem wanted all children to be perfect he would have created all of them exactly the same."


If you go and check 2nd grade reading abilities-you'll find an almost perfect correlation with those 8-10 years later who are in the night seder of the Yeshiva of Central Avenue. They would be typically polite kids tolerated through JHS-and when HS came they aren't good academically sayonora. HAFTR HS with its change of administration just changed from being one of the most tolerant of poor students to the least tolerant.

6:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon at 5:05am:
May I suggest that you take out the Torah Temimah on the same pasuk for the 2 other explanations of that pasuk. By memory here they are-but don't believe me check me.
Alternate explanation 1-when do you have to listen to chazal when it is not clear to you what is right or wrong then of course listen to them because they have more knowledge than you-but if it isclear to you don't listen to them. After all no one can tell you to violate the Torah-you are ultimately responsible for it.
Alternate explanation 2-I might have thought that I must listen to our Rabbis on everything-Talmud lomar-no one listens to them when what they say is right is right and what they say is left is left.



I looked it up and you are misquoting him. He specifically states that you don't have to listen to them if they tell you to violate an obvious sin (ie. eating non-kosher fats, or Torah prohibited relations). We are not talking about that here.


Also, you don't seem to be disputing my main point...that Shifra's contention that the "authority was given to the Rabbanim by the people" is sheker.

9:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I looked it up and you are misquoting him. He specifically states that you don't have to listen to them if they tell you to violate an obvious sin (ie. eating non-kosher fats, or Torah prohibited relations). We are not talking about that here.

931 PM-this 505 AM
let me quote from my torah Tmimah not from memory-it states it is quoting from Yerushalmi Horiot

yachol im yomru lcha al imin shu smol ial smol shu ymin tishma lahem? talmud lomar yamin usmol cshyomru lcha al imin shehu imin val smol shehu smol

not an expert of trnasliteration-anyone else please do a better job-my nonexpert translation

It might be that one should listen to chazal when they tell you right is left and left is right? Thus we are taught right and left, when they tell you about right which is right and left which is left.

Am I quoting and translating correctly-I essentially stand on my 505 AM post.

11:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The following is a fragment that I found online-google Rabbi Michael Broyde and a few words and you can probably find the whole interesting letter.


THE FINAL ISSUE concerns the proper place for, and the power of, rabbinic authority. In my opinion, Torah scholars derive their authority from their knowledge of halacha and hashkafa, their respect for and from others (derech eretz), and their ability to grasp the problems that they seek to answer. The gap between the authority of the rabbi and the lay person is a function of the knowledge and ability of the two, and not the mere fact that one is a rabbi and the other is not. I believe that a rabbi or posek earns respect and deference to his authority by demonstrating a comprehension of Torah, its values, and the reality of the world to which Torah is to be applied. These skills allow one (rabbi or lay) to insightfully navigate the complex world we inhabit in a way that our Creator favors; those without these navigational skills should seek the association of one who has them. However, the Latin maxim quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus7 remains true and even the best of Torah scholars or rabbis can make mistakes; there is no obligation to follow their rulings when they are in error. Indeed, it is prohibited to do so -- although one must always be meticulously polite when one indicates disagreement with a scholar. This is precisely what the Jerusalem Talmud means when it states:
Is it possible that if the Sages tell you about right that it is left or about left that it is right that you should listen to them? Torah says “to the right or to the left” meaning that one should follow the Sages instruction only if they tell you about right that it is
right and about left that it is left.8

Rabbi Broydes footnote should be of interest.

8Yerushalmi Horiyot 1:1; See also Shach, Yoreh Deah 242:31; Ran commenting on Avodah Zarah 7a s.v. hanishal lachacham; Hagaot Maymoniut, Talmud Torah 5:1-2; and Rosh Meluneil, Hilchot Talmud Torah 28. This approach is a rejection of some rabbis’ conception of da’as torah, which assigns to rabbis a sense of rabbinic infallibility that creates an appearance that rabbinic pronouncements are nearly a manifestation of the Divine. This approach can be found in Sifri, Mishpatim 154 which states: “’To the right or to the left’: even if the Sages tell you that the right hand is the left and the left hand is the right, obey them” which is quoted by Rashi on Deuteronomy 17:11, Ramban in the introduction to his Hasagot Lesefer Hamitzvot and in his commentary on Deuteronomy 17:11 and Chinuch, Mitzvah 492.

11:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not to mislead-Orthomom has implied different postings by same IP address is an attempt to pretend more people agree than whoever is doing the posting-thus 1148 PM 1131 PM and 505AM are written by the same person ME!

11:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>Am I quoting and translating correctly-I essentially stand on my 505 AM post.

You are correct in quoting him, but the critique of your comment is also correct:
quote "He specifically states that you don't have to listen to them if they tell you to violate an obvious sin (ie. eating non-kosher fats, or Torah prohibited relations). We are not talking about that here." end quote

Your comment doesn't apply to the issue that Shifra was originally discussing, which provoked this whole conversation.

1:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nowhere does Rabbi Broyde agree with Shifra's contention that "authority was given to the Rabbanim by the people"

1:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:47, 9:31, 1:47 and 1:50 are a different "me". [Hey, I posted two days in a row at 1:47am!]

1:53 AM  
Blogger eem said...

It was given to the rabbanim by G-d, but the people are left with a power too-if the Rabbanim want to make a takana, to impose a certain restriction etc. on the people, and they see that the people will not or are not keeping it, they are not allowed to make that takana-this happened with shemen akum. And yamin u'smol only applies to sanhedrin.There is the concept of listening to our leaders/rabbanim as a jewish concept, but listening to everything a rav says applies only in terms of halacha, only if he is your rav and only if you asked for a psak. All Jews listening to their gedolim is the ideal, but today who the gedolim are and who is really doing the talking to and for them is really unclear.

2:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is the concept of listening to our leaders/rabbanim as a jewish concept, but listening to everything a rav says applies only in terms of halacha, only if he is your rav and only if you asked for a psak.

Agree absolutely I am 1151 PM and other posts

6:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I should have emphasized

" only if he is your rav and only if you asked for a psak."

AND ONLY IF YOU ASKED FOR A PSAK
crucial-they only have power if you gave it to them. They can't demand power.

6:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agudah vs. Bloggers:

Agudah, as in Perlow? As in the Novominsker who was told about the Kolko/Margulies horror show and refused to get involved because "this is a tzibur matter and I am a yuchid" and when pressed further tried "this is a flatbush matter and I live in Boro Park" on for size.

Is this the "Torah Authority" and Agudah we are wasting out time discussing?

7:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps the mistake that the bloggers have made all along is to assume that the Agudath and even the novominsker are actually "Torah Authority?"

9:59 AM  
Anonymous simcha said...

I am told by reliable sources that UOJ will be attending the Agudah's Thursday night session.

12:27 PM  
Blogger Sholom said...

Have bloggers declared open season on Torah authority?

This blogger has.

The preceeding has been a shameless self-promotion.

12:12 PM  
Blogger Mississippi Fred MacDowell said...

re the idea that authority derives from the consent of the governed (as opposed to divine right) certainly from a human perspective without followers there are no leaders.

2:43 PM  
Blogger Leapa said...

Drat!

I was just invited to a Bar Mitzva with just a few attendees at a melamed's house, same night as the Aguda Blogosium. Sorry, guys! I'd much rather be at the Agudah, but menschlichkeit calls.

Oh, darn.

2:33 PM  
Blogger Leapa said...

Drat!

I was just invited to a Bar Mitzva with just a few attendees at a melamed's house, same night as the Aguda Blogosium. Sorry, guys! I'd much rather be at the Agudah, but menschlichkeit calls.

Oh, darn.

2:33 PM  
Blogger Leapa said...

Drat!

I was just invited to a Bar Mitzva with just a few attendees at a melamed's house, same night as the Aguda Blogosium. Sorry, guys! I'd much rather be at the Agudah, but menschlichkeit calls.

Oh, darn.

2:33 PM  
Blogger Leapa said...

See the first of a short follow up series I started on the Agudah convention.
frumnet.blogspot.com

2:19 PM  

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