More "Protests"
It only gets worse:
Oh, and before the comments begin, a few notes to my readers:
1. Before you tell me how much "worse" of a Chillul Hashem the Gay Pride parade is than what's going on, please keep in mind that we are discussing the behavior here of people who ostensibly hold themselves to much a higher standard. The disdain the Charedi community has shown for those marching in the parade has been made clear. Do they really consider themselves at all comparable in terms of observance as the much-vilified marchers, that we should be comparing their acts on a scale of moral equivalence? Bad behavior is bad behavior.
2. Before you tell me that YNet is biased against Charedim- feel free to read the versions of the story that have been published in JPost and Haaretz.
Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski was pelted with stones Tuesday evening during his visit to the ultra-Orthodox Me’a Shearim neighborhood in the city.Can someone tell me how stoning someone, and potentially causing him great injury, on the pretext that he hasn't done enough to prevent the parade can be considered anything but a huge Chillul Hashem?
Haredim hurled rocks at a function hall in Mea Shearim while Lupolianski and his deputy were inside in protest of the plans to hold the Gay Pride Parade in the city on Friday.
Police forces arrived and rescued the two from the building. Nobody was injured.
The mayor arrived at the Bnot-Yerushalayim hall to celebrate a “Seven Blessings” with Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, head of the Lithuanian sect and one of the most prominent Ashkenazi figures in Israel.
Despite the fact that Lupolianski has called out against holding the parade in the city, many in the haredi community hold him directly responsible.
Oh, and before the comments begin, a few notes to my readers:
1. Before you tell me how much "worse" of a Chillul Hashem the Gay Pride parade is than what's going on, please keep in mind that we are discussing the behavior here of people who ostensibly hold themselves to much a higher standard. The disdain the Charedi community has shown for those marching in the parade has been made clear. Do they really consider themselves at all comparable in terms of observance as the much-vilified marchers, that we should be comparing their acts on a scale of moral equivalence? Bad behavior is bad behavior.
2. Before you tell me that YNet is biased against Charedim- feel free to read the versions of the story that have been published in JPost and Haaretz.
posted by orthomom at 7:54 PM
39 Comments:
I'm with you completely on this.
Nothing worse than people wandering around acting so holy and doing such horrible things.
If you assume for a moment that all the rituals and stuff the Charedi do are of no value, and just look at how they act towards other people, they are pretty much crap.
How many Charedim were involved? There are many nuts in all colors, orders of dress, gender, religion etc. Obviously, no one should be taking the offensive, and those that do should be prosecuted. However, this sets the stage for the coming few days....Charedim = bad evil monsters that only care about themselves and are aggressors here......the vast majority will stand in the streets in peaceful protest....the Kapos will come in and seek to create havoc and provoke the crowd into violence by beating a bunch of the peaceful protestors, thus enabling them to respond with unrelenting force, anger, sinah and hatred to these evil charedim. The media can then get their clips and show it to the masses again and again to further inculcate this notion of the torah, eretz yisroel and those who represent it are our true enemies......
On a separate note, what planet do you think the rest of us are living on to think that we should buy into the notion that Jpost and Haaretz are not biased?????
Picked up from a blog who was quoting a genious of several decades ago.....
"Go through the city... and set a mark on the foreheads of the men that sigh and cry for all the abminations done in the midst thereof." (Ezekiel 9)
The real struggle is the Jews against the (Erev Rav) Hellenist.
The dream of materialism fills the streets and the acrid smell of yearning for pleasure assails the nostrils. In the parlor, on the bus, in the cafe, the talk is of money and what it can buy. The gentile world of magical sensualism and gratificaton of desires fills the bowels with a painful need and the Holiness of Israel is exchanged for the dream of pagan America.
The reality becomes a land whose music rocks to a gentile beat and rolls to the depths of ugly violence. Values that raised the Jew to but a little lower than angels are exchanged for those so base that he pluges lower than the beast. Judaism loses all meaning and Jewishness follows it into the junk heap of antiquity as Zionism becomes a word of mockery and cynicism. It is a land that raises its eyes unto the gentile films and televised pornography and cheers its pagan heroes even as it worships at the feet of uncircumcized foreign basketball athletes playing for the local teams. Sanity cast away for Times Square and purity of the Chosen people is exchanged for the material vomit of Los Angeles. The modesty of holiness is contemptuously abandoned and the nation wallows in nakedness of gentile culture.
They reject and stomp upon Judaism of discipline and holiness, steping above the level of the animal desires, and embrace the malignancy of gentilization with its license, total self-indulgence, and self-destruction.
The values of Judaism are, in so many areas and so overwhemingly, different from those of western-gentilized hellenism. What is ethical and what is moral and what is merciful and what is just? Political equality? Democracy? Tolerance of abomination? At opposites poles are the views of the Jews and the Hebrew-speaking Hellenists and imported gentiles.
The war is being fought over the soul and destiny of the Jewish people and the state. The destroyers from within do their job well, eating away at the morality and values of the people once chosen for purity and who today throw off the greatness of yoke of heaven - which alone guarantees the true freedom - for the rotting incense of foreign altars and strange temples of the "I" (ME) Ani, self.
After Baruch Goldstein did his deed all Jews were evil killers of innocents in the middle of prayer in a house of prayer....why not apply the same principal to charedim on account of those who dumbly choose to take the offensive and actively seek to harm fellow Jews....hey just look at global media coverage of Israel and the broad brush strokes they paint about Jews and Israelis.....are u any better than them?????
ROFL
If the Ynet version is biased read Haaretz?
That's like saying, if you think CNN is biased against Israel, go read Al Jazeera.
You're collecting material from sources that are at 'best' hostile and contemptuous towards Haredim and that's on a good day and then fulminating on your high horse about how awful those Charedim are.
Substitute African-Americans for Charedim and wholly white owned paper without a single black reporter on the staff that typically write contemptuous pieces aimed at black people and then go look in the mirror.
Oh BTW I'm waiting for your constant coverage on the Ethiopian riots in Israel and the same condemnations directed at them
Here I'll even help you out with actual Ynet links
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3324656,00.html
The difference of course is that the media approach here treats the Ethiopian protest with great sympathy and reports on police brutality...EVEN THOUGH THE SAME BRUTALITY OCCURS ON A REGULAR BASIS AND HAS OCCURRED FAR WORSE AT CHAREDI PROTESTS
You're collecting material from sources that are at 'best' hostile and contemptuous towards Haredim and that's on a good day and then fulminating on your high horse about how awful those Charedim are.
Please. The battle cry around here every time I link YNet is how biased Ynet in particluar is against Charedim. At the very least, we can certainly accept the fact that some members of teh Charedi community chose to treat Mayor Lupoliansky in a reprehensible manner. Say what you want, nitpick whatever part of my post you would like, you can;t get around that fact.
I have family living not far from the areas of protest in Jerusalem. They fully identify as Charedi, and are part of the Kollel system. Yet somehow, they find the behavior of the violent rioters to be terrifying and reprehensible. They went from being angry at the the marchers in the Gay Pride parade, to be being even angrier at their neighbors who are behaving, in a particluar relative's words "like animals".
You're right......they are ALL disgusting filthy animals
orthomom:
I may have missed it in your posts, but I haven't seen the numbers of rioters. Are we talking about a dozen, fifty, 1000? I think that is rather significant.
The values of Judaism are, in so many areas and so overwhemingly, different from those of western-gentilized hellenism. What is ethical and what is moral and what is merciful and what is just? Political equality? Democracy? Tolerance of abomination? At opposites poles are the views of the Jews and the Hebrew-speaking Hellenists and imported gentiles.
The war is being fought over the soul and destiny of the Jewish people and the state. The destroyers from within do their job well, eating away at the morality and values of the people once chosen for purity and who today throw off the greatness of yoke of heaven - which alone guarantees the true freedom - for the rotting incense of foreign altars and strange temples of the "I" (ME) Ani, self.
What a load of crap. Before you race to defend the brave champions of morality in a depraved and rotting world, you might want to know that it's not just gays they're stoning. Two months ago I was walking in Meah Shearim, six months pregnant and in Bais Yaakov- befitting tznius attire, and stones were hurled at me and my Israeli relatives as we window-shopped. My shaitel may have been long and my stocking were not seamed, but I defy the conclusion that I was destroying the "morality" and "purity" of the psycho with the "vassa zuckin" who took aim at my neices and my unborn child. It seems his morality was evicerated long ago. What's your excuse?
To Barelyanonymous:
What is it that you are responding to when you said the following,
"What a load of crap. Before you race to defend the brave champions of morality in a depraved and rotting world.......
The author of the words you referenced above was Meir Kahane back in the early 1980s. Who ever said that Charedim as opposed to all Jews who recognize they are mamash standing before their Creator every second of the day is who that is a reference to? Once again the knee-jerk broadbrush stroke response painting a large group of Jews in a negative light based on the actions of a few. Seems like the rest of the world does a pretty good job of demonizing Jews. Not so sure that we need to help them out by creating more fractures, more machlokes, more hatred and more anger amongst ourselves. Wouldn't you agree??
Obviously what was done from you is sad, reprehensible, wrong, etc. etc. and truly sad that any Jew had to go through that. By the way I would not categorize myself as a Charedi.....just a Jew, an eved Hashem who tries.....
Not sure what your point about Meir Kahane is. There are crazed fanatics of every stripe. That the crazed fanatic is modern orthodox, zionist, charedi, or taliban has little relevance to me.
"Not sure what your point about Meir Kahane is. There are crazed fanatics of every stripe. That the crazed fanatic is modern orthodox, zionist, charedi, or taliban has little relevance to me."
on a personal level it obviously wont and shouldnt matter to you. the topic here seems more of a general social one and thus it is significant to analyze the differences in degree and amount of violence carried out by any group, the numbers and percentages involved in those acts, and the leaders response to said acts.
seems just about no one here grasps that.
Point about Rabbi Meir Kahane is (1) he was not a charedi (2) more importantly this was written 25 years ago.
I don't read his writings and barely know much about him. I merely saw this posted on another blog and it just hit me as the absolute EMES and truly reflects how society developed over the past 25 years. We all have to look at ourselves in the mirror and ask "Do I feel like I am the presence of G-d every second of the day and all of my thoughts, feelings and actions are reflective of that, or has my sense of morality, what is right and what I am living for so corrupted by Western anochius (it's all about me) and spontaneous consumption and hedonistic pleasures?"
Is my hatred of the charedi world and every single "animal (chas v'sholom) in that world just an excuse to exempt myself from a Torah true life (through and through) because afterall that is what they represent, right? And I certainly don't want to be like them!
I learned something awesome last night. We should look at the world as if it were in the state of pre-creation....meaning only G-dliness. What our eyes see and our ears hear are only the chitzonious, the outer dimension of this world. And this applies to everything in this world. Everything is the hand of G-d. You just have to find it, but first you have to willing to look for it!
Is it that difficult to let go of hatred?????
Start looking at the world as if it is just you and G-d!!!!
Orthomom:
So when it fits your point of view you trust the newspapers, such as Ynet, and when you criticise Hikind and the boys involved in the brooklyn incidient, but when it doesnt fit your point of view such as the 5 towns articles, and the nassau herald articles you rip them apart.
And enough of those requests about loshon hora and you may need to moderate the comments. You know that every time you write a topic that there will be alot of loshon hora, lies, complaints, and comments by those with agendas (Lifnei Iver) , so you obviously feel you are doing some sort of a service with this blog (for the life of me I cant figure out what that purpose is, and what you have accomplished) but if you need this blog, live with the comments.
So when it fits your point of view you trust the newspapers, such as Ynet, and when you criticise Hikind and the boys involved in the brooklyn incidient, but when it doesnt fit your point of view such as the 5 towns articles, and the nassau herald articles you rip them apart.
Um, no. But I can understand why if you don;t read closely, you can get confused. My posts rarely hinge on minor points that the news source may or may not be getting right. For example, i don;t think anyone can argue that Charedim are not behaving badly in Jerusalem. Nor can anyone say that regardless of how the fight began, a Pakistani youth was not beaten up by Orthodox youth in Brooklyn last week. It's the incontrovertible truths in the articles that I generally accept as fact.
In terms of my criticism of local newspaper's coverage, I generally do so when they use poor journalistic standards and go against the basic tenets of journalistic integrity - which happens far too often. When I do so, however, I generally do so by providing direct examples that prove my complaints.
You have a problem with YNet's coverage? Great. I'd love to hear all about it. But please try to bring specific complaints that rebut the reporting done in the articles you take issue with. It always helps buttress your case.
you obviously feel you are doing some sort of a service with this blog (for the life of me I cant figure out what that purpose is, and what you have accomplished) but if you need this blog, live with the comments.
Well, that's not really true. You see, whether you feel it serves a purpose or not, it's MY blog. So really, I can do whatever I want with the comments I don't like. Feel free to start your own blog. It's heady stuff.
Orthomom define what makes this a chillul hashem.
Orthomom define what makes this a chillul hashem.
"Orthomom define what makes this a chillul hashem."
Anon are you kidding? Ultra-Orthodox jews harming others in the name of religion? Setting fires, throwing stones, and canned food? That's what i consider a Chillul Hashem. Do they say that Mordechai stood outside Ahashverosh's palace throwing stones, setting fires, and causing mayhem?
No. He wore sackcloth and ashes. Let the Charedi community stand in front of all Jerusalem's municipal buildings wearing sack and ashes, crying and praying and fasting. That's what religion is about. Not violence.
anon 12:46 wrote:
Is my hatred of the charedi world and every single "animal (chas v'sholom) in that world just an excuse to exempt myself from a Torah true life (through and through) because afterall that is what they represent, right? And I certainly don't want to be like them!
There is a lot of arrogance in that statement. Why is it always the assumption that the reason some people disagree with the charedi (and I love how it is disagree=hate in so many posts) is that we are trying to exempt ourselves from Torah living. I can say that I have put a great deal of thought and study into my views and feel that I disagree with their views BECAUSE I feel they do not represent Torah living, not to escape from it.
This happened. Even charedi sites say so:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=3592#comments
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT WENT ON INSIDE THE MIRER YESHIVA LAST NIGHT IN ERETZ YISROEL??? BOYS SITTING AND LEARNING TORAH WERE ATTACKED BY YASSAMNIKIM WHO BROKE INTO THE YESHIVA. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND THERE IS BLOOD EVERYWHERE AND MANY INJURIES!!!
AM YISROEL WAKE UP! ORTHOMOM STOP BEING A SOURCE OF SUCH SINAS CHINAM, RICHILUS, LASHON HARAH PLEASE SHUT DOWN YOUR SITE OR FIND A NEW MO
"Well, that's not really true. You see, whether you feel it serves a purpose or not, it's MY blog. So really, I can do whatever I want with the comments I don't like."
It may be your Blog, but its our neighborhood, and our people. Its Rabbi Eisen, our Rabbis, Gourmet Glatt, the Charedim etc. who are the victims of the comments.
Interesting. I was listening to shiur this morning. The whole point of the shiur was exactly that. Moshe said Anochi Omeyd Bain Hashem Uvayneichem....."I am standing between Hashem and You" "I = EGO" Your EGO separates you from G-d. Your right, this country has conditioned you to believe it's all about YOU. The TORAH is supposed to be conditioning you that it's all about G-d. If you don't want to BE close to G-d, even if you "FEEL" (another Western conditioning it's all about how you feel on things not b'mitzious what they are) than continue what you've been doing. Mitzvos are there to tell you what G-d wants. If you think about Lech Lecha that is pre the appearance of G-d to Avraham. Everything in Lech Lecha is in the form of a vision. Therefore, all of the building that Avraham did in Lech Lecha was through his perception of what G-d wanted - Halevey we should be zocheh to the slightest feelings like that. At end of Lech Lecha Avarham has his bris milah, meaning Hashem I am dedicated my entire physical being to your service. Only after the bris when we get to Vayera do we see G-d APPEAR to Avraham. It's no longer about Avraham's attempt to sense and feel for what G-d wants. Now it's clear...now it's the lashon of Hashem Appearing! Enough with how YOU feel about what G-d wants. If you ever want to start growing truly close to G-d (as opposed to feeling close to G-d) stiffle those FEELINGS, get rid of the Western ideologies it's all about ME and how I FEEL....I FEEL G-D WANTS...etc. Open a chumash, open a mishna, open a Rambam, Shulchan Orach, Mishna Breruah. If you want to LITERALLY (not just in feeling) be close to G-d then learn what G-d wants from you!!! There is no first amendment in the Torah -- and Jews seem to forget that. You're right, Lashon Harah, Richilus, Expressions of Sinah are all perfectly allowed under the First Amendment. May I suggest you make a First Amendment to your life, which is to stop FEELING about what G-d wants and start LEARNING about what G-d has commanded you.....that is of course only if you desire to be close to G-d...your neshomah is crying out.....
What are yassamnikim?
From another blog...
Storm troopers. Powerful words. For those not raised exclusively in the Star Wars era, the words were used to describe Nazi SS troops (may their name be blotted out). To be described with the same words today is offensive. It's meant to be.
During the Yitzchok Rabin administrator in Israel, the Oslo Accord process was started, giving away parts of Israel. Not elected on that platform, no matter. In Israel, with a non-representative pseudo-democracy, the citizens have no one to whom to protest nor any practical way of influencing the government. Only 1 form of protest was effective, trade union strike. But the party in power controlled the trade unions.
So an American immigrant decided to change the equation. American style civil disobedience. Sit-down protests in major intersections stunned the nation and, more importantly, the government. They were prepared to be arrested and refused to play by the unwritten rules (where once arrested you "agree" not to recommit, and the police let you go). Unable to deal with it, the government upgraded arrest charges to TREASON.
When Ariel Sharon came to power and decided on a radical path directly counter to his election mandate, he remembered the civil obedience movement. He would not let a minor thing like public opinion or protest affect his plans.
So he ordered the preparation of a new security unit. Yassam. Young men, non-religious, preferably non-Jewish, trained to deal with protest. Their methods? Not arrest, not crowd control, not tear gas or water cannon. No. They trained exclusively with riot gear and just-barely non-lethal violence techniques. Metal batons, armored fists, causing broken bones and head serious head wounds. Stun grenades and huge oversized riot control horses for charging crowds.
Black armor, grey uniforms, black shielded helmets, black armored gloves, black jack boots. No id, no badge, crew cuts. No females, no yalmuka's, no handcuffs (no arrests). Beatings, rage, trampling, that's their training. Religious may not apply, Zionists are forbidden.
They exist to break the will (and bones) of protestors.
They are the Yassamnikim, the Israeli government's private storm troopers.
They were deployed in Gaza, but only at the 'severe' protesting points. They were deployed in Chevron to clear the Jewish owned market, the shuk. And they were deployed in Amona in all their gory (sic), trampling, beating, breaking. They physically threw a friend's 15 year son out a second story window (they were sitting waiting to be annoying by being dragged away). He survived, no bones broken, but they broke his spirit, today he's thrown away his kippah and his observance.
They exist to break bones and break spirit.
Their name is well earned. Storm troopers.
This week, they are deployed to the ultra-religious neighborhoods of Meah Shearim and Geulah in Jerusalem. Tonight reports are they are literally storming yeshiva's and beating the SITTING student population
Yassam = Special police force thugs brought in increasingly lately to crush protests in brutal and violent ways.
some of their work can be seen here
The key difference from this with Charedi protests is the Charedi fight back.
People like the blogger here will usually excuse and even defend their brutality on the grounds that the charedim\settlers (insert religious group despised by upscale liberal Jews here) deserved it.
I don't believe this is the full story. I saw a documentary that was filmed live as Gush Katif was being evacuated. Soldiers were instructed by Israeli military officials to sit, talk and pray with the families and not harm them in any way. After days of patience and attempts at rational pursuasion, they gently carried off the few remaining holdouts who were, honestly, largely weirdos and hippies who didn't necessarily even live there. In fact, these last holdouts surrounded themselves in barbed wire on rooftops and threw chemicals and attacked the soldiers who exhibited extraordinary restraint and patience. You may or may not agree with the Israeli government's overall policies, but to compare them to Nazi storm troopers is entirely inaccurate and a gross exaggeration akin to Palestinians saying they are being innocently slaughtered by the Israeli army when their militants are the ones escalating the violence.
A bit of restraint before a rush to judgment, please.
Soldiers very different from Yassam troops....Sharon's use of them very different than current clown -- may he do teshuva. They were used in Amona and they were used in Yerushalayim....not the army....not the police....a specially designed brutal troop that is not to carry identity whose sole purpose is to crush resistance to the government and crush people both physically and in spirit. Go look at the Amona pictures and videos before you talk about restraint. By design, by the way if you read a few posts ago, most of them are not Jewish and they are using riot horses supplied by none other than.....u guess. No rush to "judgement", but full videos in Amona don't lie and videos of what occured in Yerushalayim don't lie either. The government is on an all out assault to destroy the religious Jew (not a reference to guy just wearing a yarmulka or vice versa). They are trying to separate Jews from the holiest parts of Eretz Yisroel (obviously reference to portions of W. Bank, Shechem and Yerushalayim). With the "kippah seruga settlemet crowd" trying to do it with force (Amona, ridiculous arrests, forced evacuations) and with the Charedi crowd through money and now through force. It is so clear to those whose minds are not clouded by brainwashing and distortion from major media outlets. So please give us all a break about "rushing to judgement". Olmert unfortunately clearly appears to hate the religious Jew!! All the promises to the Gaza refugees....poof up in smoke -- lives and families utterly destroyed. My friend, that is the goal here, but on a far grander scale. Think about what has gone on.
1. the chemical story is a lie that continues being repeated by a biased press.
2. some were evacuated non-violently, some were evacuated by force. soldiers generally acted non-violently, border police less so.
3. In any case we are not talking about the army or Gaza, but about the Amona police riot which is a part of the general brutality of israeli police and in particular the yassam units something a variety of groups from charedim, settlers, russians and sefardim can testify to.
Is an entire week of continuous, city-wide activism, including a film festival, a parade? I thought a parade was a parade. English is my first language and I am good at it.
They are making it a whole week to be the last ones still standing.
They were hoping the others would have to go back to their jobs and families. These people cannot take a whole week off, was the theory. We can.
Life is nice on Long Island. In Manhattan, we see some realities you do not, and what the consequences. Enjooooy your safe suburb, sucker.
1. the chemical story is a lie that continues being repeated by a biased press.
2. some were evacuated non-violently, some were evacuated by force. soldiers generally acted non-violently, border police less so.
3. In any case we are not talking about the army or Gaza, but about the Amona police riot which is a part of the general brutality of israeli police and in particular the yassam units something a variety of groups from charedim, settlers, russians and sefardim can testify to.
1) I watched the documentary. It was done by an independant filmmaker not the "biased press." The chemical story is not a lie. Unless you were there to witness otherwise, I don't see how you can claim it's a lie.
3) Be careful with your characterization of the "general brutality of the Israeli police . . . ." You sound exactly like the Palestinians. I'm surprised they're not on your list of those brutalized. And if indeed that is the case, perhaps they do have the right to fight back and demand the destruction of Israel . . . (obviously tongue-in-cheek) Somehow I doubt that's your position, so be careful your ignorance and anger doesn't undermine your own argument.
I can't pretend to know much about the Amona police riot, but just like the NYPD or the LAPD, instances of bigotry and violence should not serve to condemn an entire group who, for the most part, devotes their lives to protecting others.
TO ANONYMOUS WHO IS NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE AMONA INCIDENT.....MAY I SUGGEST YOU SEND YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS SO THAT WE COULD SEND YOU SOME PICTURES AND VIDEOS......OR ALTERNATIVELY GO TO THE SULTANKNISH SITE LISTED BELOW!!!!! WHEN YOU ARE DONE, PLEASE REPOST YOUR THOUGHTS
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2006/02/amona-police-brutality-video-photos.html
1. Calling someone 'independent' does not disprove bias. It's simply rhetoric. I am independent that doesn't make me unbiased.
The claim about undefined chemicals never had any basis or a shred of proof except occasional vague claims by police spokesmen
2. The level and scale of Israeli police brutality has long since been documented. After Amona the police showed open contempt for the investigation and outrightly obstructed it. Your attempt to dodge the issue by linking it to Palestinian terrorism is weak and lame.
The Israeli justice system has long been corrupted by judicial activism, an old boy's network and police units that seem to exist primarily to beat protesters, particularly those belonging to any Jewish religious or national minority in Israel.
Being a Zionist means being willing to stand up and oppose that and fight for change.
The bottom line is that the civil disobedience is wrong.
welcome to democracy
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