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Monday, November 06, 2006

More on Jerusalem Riots

Shmarya, in discussing the Jerusalem anti-Gay Pride parade protests, makes a good point. It is along the lines of one I made a few months back, in the wake of the Brooklyn "Cell-Phone Riots". Back then, when Charedi leadership claimed that some members of the community were simply out of control, and there was nothing to be done, I wrote:
The question is, somehow most of these teenaged boys can be prevented from going online, going to movies, or talking to girls, yet why does no one seem to have any control over them when they decide to go on a destructive rampage?
Now Shmarya provides us with this quote, from JPost, to make a similar point:
The ultra-Orthodox Eda Haredit leadership said Sunday night that although it opposed violent demonstrations against Friday's planned Gay Pride march, it could do nothing to stop them.

Rabbi Moshe Sternbach, head of the Eda Haredit Rabbinic Court, said he had specifically ordered his followers not to use violence.

"I said 'don't give blows,' but the public is really angry and cannot control itself."

Shmuel Poppenheim, editor of Ha'eda, the mouthpiece of the Eda Haredit, said that the rabbis called on their followers to [do] everything in their ability to disrupt citizens' lives.

"But everyone knows not to do anything prohibited by the Shulhan Aruch [the compilation of codified Jewish law]," said Poppenheim.

Poppenheim said that blocking roads was legitimate but other tactics that have been used by haredim in Jerusalem, Bnei Brak and Beit Shemesh, such as pouring oil on roads, burning trash bins and throwing rocks, were all prohibited.

"Most of the public listen to the call to wear sackcloth and smear ashes on themselves [signs of mourning], pray that the abominable march will be canceled and scream gevalt. There is nothing we can do about a few people who lose control."
Crazy. Charedi leadership admits that the violent nature of the protests is prohibited by Halacha. Yet, they are willing to accept that there is nothing they can do to control these protesters, and make excuses for the fact that he protesters are unable to control these urges to violently protest. Yet, there are no similar excuses made for those with homosexual urges - in quotes taken from the same interview:
Asked what is done with haredim who are homosexual, Poppenheim said that they must be ostracized and removed from the community. He rejected the claim that homosexuals had no control over their sexual desires.

"I believe God gave each person the strength to overcome his bad qualities if he wants to," he said.
Right. I agree completely. No matter how angry the hordes may be over the Gay Pride parade, "God gave each person the strength to overcome his bad qualities if he wants to". I think, however, that the disparity in the way these two different "urges" are treated in the Charedi community comes through loud and clear. I guess we all have different definitions of what qualifies as an "uncontrollable urges".

Now, I don't personally believe that Charedim who cannot control their urges to break halacha should be automatically " ostracized and removed from the community", as Poppenheim suggests above. But if he does, why no call for these violent protesters who are so clearly breaking halacha as well?

32 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perfect.

9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great post.

9:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and what would have happened if Pinchas ben Elazar ben Aharon Hakohain would have restrained himself.........as Shlomo Hamelech said there is a time for war....there is such a thing as milchemes mitzvah. Are we all blind as to what is going on???? The attempted systematic destruction of torah judaism in eretz hakedosha??? Gaza, Amona, Chevron...... and now Yerushalayim. On the physical side our dear cousins started with rocks....then stabbings....then homocide bombers....then kassams.....then katyushas....then longer range Iranian missiles....chas v'sholom what is next???? Do you think it's just coincidence that this is occuring in Yerushalayim in Chesvon on Erev Shabbos Parshas Vayera?????? WAKE UP!!!!! The Mabul started in Cheshvon.....Sodom and Amorra were destroyed by Hashem b'chvodo u'vaatzmo in Parshas Vayera????? Have you become so numbed to TRUE TORAH???? Or has true torah just become silver mezuza cases, giant silver kiddush cups, silver megillah cases, long tzitzis, a brand new black hat, being honored at the 167th dinner of the year???? IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP!!!!!!

9:54 AM  
Blogger Robbie said...

I don't think it would be such a bad thing if the charedim behind the riots were, in fact ostracized from the community...

9:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said! And I ask: How come the Heredim didn't protest with equal (or even one quarter!) the passion when 10,000 Jews were being forcibly evicted from Gush Katif, a moral crime no less an abomination and with far reaching consequences and dangers to Am Yisrael? There's definitely a skewed and self-contradictory attitude at play here

10:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great.....so let's give Yerushalayim to the paraders and the Arabs just to get back at the Charedim for not protesting the Gush Katif eviction.....and if you don't mind my asking, what did YOU do to (1) protest the Gush Katif eviction???? Check blogsites on the web???? (2) help those evicted?? Did you send $$$$$? Did you bother to write a letter to a family???? Send toys for the kids???? ANYTHING????? But.....but....that's different.....sure....

10:11 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"Great.....so let's give Yerushalayim to the paraders and the Arabs just to get back at the Charedim for not protesting the Gush Katif eviction.....and if you don't mind my asking, what did YOU do to (1) protest the Gush Katif eviction???? Check blogsites on the web???? (2) help those evicted?? Did you send $$$$$? Did you bother to write a letter to a family???? Send toys for the kids???? ANYTHING????? But.....but....that's different.....sure...."

100% false argument and an obfuscating response to divert attention from you not answering the quesiton.

What did the Chareidim do to prevent Gaza? That is the question.

And don't deflect because it will validate or invalidate your self-righeous piffle. So tell us, what did they do?

10:33 AM  
Blogger David said...

excellent post.

The Hareidi community must accept that ideas have consequences, and behave accordingly. If people are truly slaves to their internal desires, and cannot be expected to control them, they should show more sympathy to those people who feel uncontrolled desire. If people can truly control their internal desires (or are at least expected to do so), then the leadership must forcefully condemn those who behave badly even when they are motivated by similar goals to the rest of the Hareidim.

10:35 AM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

I thought that the "disengagement" was a bad idea. I thought that it would be interpreted by the Arabs as a sign of weakness. And while I am unconvinced that Gaza has much religious significance (it was never settled by Jews in biblical times, and the only prominent Jew I am aware of who was from Gaza was the notorious Rabbi Natan, who fooled much of the Jewish world into accepting a false messiah), I get upset when I hear of some WASP enclave in Westchester County that won't allow Jews. Kol v'chomer for anything in or near the Land of Israel!

But I did not protest the eviction because I was disgusted with the tactics of the opponents. Sorry, comparing Ariel Sharon to Hitler may his name be blotted out is a desecration of the memory of the six million. The tactics of the opponents, not the loss of the land, made me question whether I should consider myself a Religious Zionist. I also do not believe that it is good for Jews in the diaspora to publically organize opposition to actions of the Israeli government. I am convinced that the active opposition to the Israeli government by Jews who identify as Zionists increased the legitimacy of the anti-Zionist claptrap that is found on the extreme Left and Right in the US, and in much more mainstream segments of the body politic in Europe.

I did send money to help the evictees through the OU.

And now I am disgusted with the tactics of the parade opponents. I disassociate myself with those who condone acts of violence in a democratic society. How can we oppose Arab terrorism when we Jews condone acts of illegal violence?

Rather than violently attacking peaceful protesters in the name of God, why don't they target something that really contributes to the decline of religious observance? Get 50,000 people to stage a peaceful sit-in at a shopping mall that is open on Shabat, shutting it down until the mall owners at least let all their employees take Shabat as a day off. Or set up peaceful patrols in the parts of Tel Aviv that are plagued by prostitution, reporting the johns to their families. Or assigning ever single Christian missionary they can find a shadow in order to pass out counter-missionary pamphlets.

There is much good that religious fervor can accomplish. This is not that.

10:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just like the pharmacy protests, why is this a shock to anyone?

Repeat after me, "Fanatics".

This is no different than the stone-age mentality of those whacked-out Re-Born Christians.

11:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In response to Still Wonderin' who commented:

"100% false argument and an obfuscating response to divert attention from you not answering the quesiton.

What did the Chareidim do to prevent Gaza? That is the question.

And don't deflect because it will validate or invalidate your self-righeous piffle. So tell us, what did they do?"

Obfuscate? Deflect? Divert?

Because I didn't daven today....i should not make a bracha when i eat otherwise g-d will see me as a hypocrite.

My dear fellow Jew....that is your logic! Maybe the Charedim did the right thing or the wrong thing when it came to Aza. Let's assume they did the wrong thing for arguements sake. Does that mean they should not do what they believe is right here????

Your life, as is mine, is full of mistakes, contradictions, etc. G-d created human beings!

Again do you disagree with what Pinchas did? Do you disagree that what this parade repesents is 100% against the Torah, and is something that G-d himself responded to twice in wiping out the world in the mabul and again by sodom???? Do you debate that??? Is your heart so closed that you do not see that the gov't of Israel has launched an all-out campaign to destroy Torah-Judasim? Do you not understand their attempts to take away the most holy lands from us in exchange for the ability to sip Tequilas half naked on the beach in Tel Aviv undisturbed? Take a step back...really....and just think about the events of the past few years. If you are a Torah-Jew you are an Enemy of The State....don't matter if you wear fur on your head, velvet, leather, yarn or nothing at all....don't matter if you are ashkenazi, sephardi, taymani, eidat mizrach, etc. don't matter if you are male or female....don't matter if you are just standing on the street corner (did you forget)? don't matter if you are 13 years old (did you forget)? IT'S TIME TO SAY ENOUGH!!!!! Was Amona not enough of a walk up call as to what they (PM, Courts, Think Tanks, Universities, Police, and unfortnuately Tzahal -- which by the way was stripped naked of any thinking leader by Sharon so he could control without disagreement -- which of course led to our downfall in the recent war --- go do some research. I really mean all of these things from my heart and I am not doing it in a way to put you down. I am just begging you to open your eyes and think about these things.

To the topic at hand....The notion that what I do behind closed doors is always the defense. i've seen it used here many times. Is that really the case? (1) THIS IS NOT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS....IT IS ON THE HOLY STREETS OF MY HOLY CITY; (2) This movement along with every other "associated movements" driven by the liberal/socialist left with the help of the media have destroyed the moral and ethical fabric of MY society (go speak to people who grew up in the 1930-1950s what their society was like), and now along with the MAJORITY of the WORLD that views this as an abomination, have to raise kids in a morally corrupt world. The borders are gone.

Chazal bring down that destruction during ikvasa d'moshicha will come from the oceans....meaning the borders between gashmius (as represented by the ocean --- and yes water also represents torah, but there is a teaching that every koach or power has a good side and a bad side) and taken to limit is being represented by this parade and ruchnious (as represented by dry land) will be wiped out. Was the same by the Mabul. If we are going to live without borders....chas v'shalom G-d will take away the borders of Eretz Yisroel and his borders around the world that protect us.

Furthermore, while one can ask many many questions on Charedim (I'll let G-d judge them), one thing I can say is that at least they as a group protect SANCTITY and HOLINESS (obviously not everyone of them....there are ALWAYS exceptions)....THEY ARE READY TO DEFEND G-D's TORAH AGAINST ABOMONATIONS OF THE SORT THAT HAVE LED TO DESTRUCTION BY G-D HIMSELF IN THE PAST. The world of innocence (probably massacred the spelling) that I grew up in is gone....now little innocent holy children have to be subjected to ideas behind this parade...half naked women everywhere u look (including this blog site).....immorality....i don't need to go on b/c u all know in your hearts that this is true....you and I are fighting for your kids neshomas...unfortunately some of us have no will to fight. It's just so sad that this is what we've come to. Sinas Chinom which this site, unfortunately, appears to do its fair share of spreading.....lack of morality...lack of concern about of holy Jewish brothers.....machlokes....divisions.....HOW MANY WAKE UP CALLS DO WE NEED?????

Yes a completely disoriented stream of thoughts.....but please take them to heart, b/c they do come from the heart?

11:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Somehow, "The Masses" always seem to miss the point because they forget logic and reason and get all tied up in emotional arguments.
This blog, including the blogger, is no different.
The bottom line here that Homosexuality exists - for better or for worse. The fact is, it's been around forever. The other inconvenient little fact is that the Torah (remember that legal document OM?) just so happens to prohibit homosexuality and the Homosexual lifestyle.
The second part (Homosexual lifestyle) is the more important issue at stake. Let me explain.
As I said above, there have been Homos (Abbreviation for Homosexual NOT homoSapien which is a whole other thing) since forever. To me, it's an urge, a very strange urge, but an urge nonetheless that some people have. It is also a VICE (Something that many people today refuse to acknowledge) Why it's a vice is complicated - but the fact is, it is a purely selfish act that goes against the natural state of the world and leads nowhere productive. As with many other vices, INCLUDING promiscuous heterosexual behavior, right or wrong, people DO IT. And, I would take it one step farther...IF you do partake in this behavior, or any other vice for that matter, that is an issue between you and you maker. You can choose to not care about that and I would say fine - again that's your choice to make not mine.
HOWEVER, the "Homosexual lifestyle" is something else entirely. This term refers to the ACCEPTANCE of homosexuality as a NORM. This agenda attempts to force people accept the "Gay Community" and legitimize the behavior.
"We're HERE and we're QUEER! Live with it!"

THIS IS WHERE THE LINE IS CROSSED. A liberal minded Torah Jew (Oxymoron alert!) could reasonably hold as I stated above – “Homosexual behavior is a private matter between a person and his g-d”. But a Torah Jew CAN NOT be pro the homosexual lifestyle and the “Gay Rights” movement. If you are, you have to seriously rethink your position on everything. You can not claim to be a religious Jew and support a parade march through the heart of the holy city in support of everything the Torah is against.

I agree that people should not damage property and should most defiantly not attack police or soldiers. However, I get the sense from many of the commenter’s that t=somehow this is not a serious issue when, in fact, it is as serious as it can get.

12:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Somehow, "The Masses" always seem to miss the point because they forget logic and reason and get all tied up in emotional arguments.
This blog, including the blogger, is no different.
The bottom line here that Homosexuality exists - for better or for worse. The fact is, it's been around forever. The other inconvenient little fact is that the Torah (remember that legal document OM?) just so happens to prohibit homosexuality and the Homosexual lifestyle.
The second part (Homosexual lifestyle) is the more important issue at stake. Let me explain.
As I said above, there have been Homos (Abbreviation for Homosexual NOT homoSapien which is a whole other thing) since forever. To me, it's an urge, a very strange urge, but an urge nonetheless that some people have. It is also a VICE (Something that many people today refuse to acknowledge) Why it's a vice is complicated - but the fact is, it is a purely selfish act that goes against the natural state of the world and leads nowhere productive. As with many other vices, INCLUDING promiscuous heterosexual behavior, right or wrong, people DO IT. And, I would take it one step farther...IF you do partake in this behavior, or any other vice for that matter, that is an issue between you and you maker. You can choose to not care about that and I would say fine - again that's your choice to make not mine.
HOWEVER, the "Homosexual lifestyle" is something else entirely. This term refers to the ACCEPTANCE of homosexuality as a NORM. This agenda attempts to force people accept the "Gay Community" and legitimize the behavior.
"We're HERE and we're QUEER! Live with it!"

THIS IS WHERE THE LINE IS CROSSED. A liberal minded Torah Jew (Oxymoron alert!) could reasonably hold as I stated above – “Homosexual behavior is a private matter between a person and his g-d”. But a Torah Jew CAN NOT be pro the homosexual lifestyle and the “Gay Rights” movement. If you are, you have to seriously rethink your position on everything. You can not claim to be a religious Jew and support a parade march through the heart of the holy city in support of everything the Torah is against.

I agree that people should not damage property and should most defiantly not attack police or soldiers. However, I get the sense from many of the commenter’s that t=somehow this is not a serious issue when, in fact, it is as serious as it can get.

12:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...when 10,000 Jews were being forcibly evicted from Gush Katif, a moral crime no less an abomination and with far reaching consequences and dangers to Am Yisrael

Nice idolatry you have there.

1:15 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

To anonyous -- I read every word your wrote and I agree that it is important to stand up for the Torah. But Chareidim demonstrate time and time again that the end can justify any means. But by doing so they drain themselves of every ounce of credibility they have for the their cause, the Torah, and themselves.

The vioence and threats are just wrong. Thir leadership is culpable unlerss they announce that THIS march is peaceful and anyone who violates that prcept will be just as ostracized and estranged as the homosexual Jews they are protesting against.

The only reason why violent behavior is not supressed is because the culture does not take the merasures necessary to reign it in. This is disgraceful, humiliating, and the cause for Jews of similar mind-sets to so vehemently protest to how badly their correligionists distort the Torah in their transparent bid to defend it.

1:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Idolatry? What is your point? How on Earth (part of the problem) do you profess to know what is more of "less [of] an abomination" or what bring further reaching consequences and dangers to Am Yisrael. We all cry over Gaza, Amona, Lebanon, Chevron and now Yerushalayim, but I don't profess to know what is "worse" this parade or Aza eviction. I will leave that to G-d. What YOU and I DO KNOW, is that G-d destroyed the world during the Mabul and overturned Sodom despite Avraham's attempts. There is some pretty damning evidence that G-d doesn't look kindly on this behavior, wouldn't you say? As for Aza. The absolute worst part was that many of these families have been destroyed and are destitude while we all [obviously not meant literally] stand by and do virtually nothing. That, my friend appears to me to be the real deep tragedy. And what do you know of what various Charedim did in support of these families from Aza as opposed to the rest of Amcha Yisroel? Are you aware that during the war with Lebanon there were masses of families from the north, most not charedi and some completely chiloni, staying with Charedi families? They've realized two things from the beginning (1) Breakdown of barriers in kedushas habris leads to broadspread moral decay -- look around you for proof of this -- look at all the children in various "orthodox" communities -- innocence is gone at Age 6 -- I cry; (2) the government has always had every intention of undermining their community and way of life -- go read the history of the state of israel from the beginning -- go research what was done to the taymanim. The truth sometimes hurts

1:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Still Wonderin'
Please explain what Pinchas ben Elazar ben Aharon (ohav shalom, rodef shalom, ohav es habriyos) did so that Hashem himself tells us HE single-handedly saved klal yisroel [hashiv es chamasi]? Chazal tell us Moshe and Aharon stood there and cried. It's not such a simple issue. Arayos is one of the BIG 3 my dear friend! It's unfortunately is just not that simple. Mabul....sodom...etc

1:36 PM  
Blogger YMedad said...

Poppenheim was on Channel One Israel TV tonight (from a back/side angle so his fall face was not visible - according to Edah Hareidit custom) and repeated that since we have no Snahedrin, the people know that a death sentence can't be passed so all they can do is protest as activiely and forcefully as possible but no more.

3:26 PM  
Blogger YMedad said...

BTW, is this Gay Pride Festival a punishment for the lack of engagement by the Hareidim in the matter of the disengagement?

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oy. O-mom, your syllogism is flawed.
Gays can't control themselves = bad.
Unruly Hareidi youth who don't control themselves = bad.

BUT THAT THE EIDAH CHAREIDIS RABBIS CAN'T CONTROL THE UNRULY YOUTHS...that part doesn't fit!
It is really not their fault if people don't want to listen to them!

5:40 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"To Still Wonderin'
Please explain what Pinchas ben Elazar ben Aharon (ohav shalom, rodef shalom, ohav es habriyos) did so that Hashem himself tells us HE single-handedly saved klal yisroel [hashiv es chamasi]? Chazal tell us Moshe and Aharon stood there and cried. It's not such a simple issue. Arayos is one of the BIG 3 my dear friend! It's unfortunately is just not that simple. Mabul....sodom...etc"

Sorry. Your hurting your cause. First, for anyone today to take upon theselves to fancy themselves as a modern day Pinchos is a dangerous egomaniac. We are not living in the time of Moshe Rabbeinu. Regular people cannot run spears through people they deem unworthy. Arayos or not. There is no justificaiton, right, or precedent in our times. Second, if the chsreidim would act appropriately with issues that do not include arayos and in this instance jump to action with murderous threats, at least, they would have the credibility to commuicate the seriousness of this particualr issue.

Instead, chareidim have spent the last 30 years throwing rocks at windmills and alienating frum and non frum alike. To scream arayos now, when EVERYTHING to chareidim is arayos is a weak argument and a transparent justification for the coming, and condoned violence.

I am also devastated to hear that Gay Pride marchers will be prancing through Yerushalayim. But I will be equally devastated to hear the violent acts perpetrated by thugs who supposedly represent me and all frum Jews.

Such behavior inexcusable and I relish hearing that those who do will spend many, many, many, many years in uncomfortable cells with the time to consider their misguided actions.

5:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm wondering the same thing - how can a community with no police force of its own control the mafia-type characters in their midst? You think they are listening to anyone??? You, who bash gedolim, are giving them more power than anyone else ever has.

6:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

***
How come the Heredim didn't protest with equal (or even one quarter!) the passion when 10,000 Jews were being forcibly evicted from Gush Katif, a moral crime no less an abomination ...
***

The Torah calls the gays an abomination. Where does it call giving land for peace an abomination? (I am not calling into Q if it was land for peace or a non-peace. but the pretext was land for peace)

7:41 PM  
Anonymous Azmat said...

I am anon 12:04
Still Wonderin', I appreciate you reading my post - I tend to get long winded and boring so THANKS!
As I said above, I agree wholeheartedly that ANY rioting or violence is inexcusable. And, unlike some of the other "pro-torah" (you like that huh?!)posters, like Anon 6:52, I fully agree that if the Rabbanim REALLY did not want this they COULD prevent it to a very large degree. No Anon, they have no police force but if the rabbanim issue a sharply worded proclamation stating that anyone who partakes in violence is a "mazik" and is in clear violation of halacha, there would be only a fraction of the violence that there is now - If ANY.
Fact is, the response from the rabbanim has been weak and that is probably not a mistake. They feel that this is the ONLY way to prevent the holy city from being violated.
My original post was mostly directed towards OM and the implied moral equivlancy in her post.
Again, I really believe that what someone does in their own bedroom is between him (or her) and his maker. But marching through the streets of the Holy City and demanding that we accept their lifestyle as normal? Uh Uh!

7:56 PM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"They feel that this is the ONLY way to prevent the holy city from being violated."

I don;rt accept this as an excuse. It's a convenient way to justify increasingly violent tactics. The ends DO ONT justfity the means. Chareidi leadership will just have to learnhow to deal with issues that offend their sensibilities in a peaceful manner or they will have to deal with having their heads cracked open.

The latter choice sickens me and all other thinking, caring Jews. So I hope they strive for the former option.

10:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crying......see below....still believe there is not a crusade by the anti-religious forces in the country?????? They are trying for all of their might to detatch Torah-true Jews from the holiest parts of Eretz Yisroel....and where that is not possible, they will try to inject the most vile thing that can be conjured up. We should all be tearing kriah, because Amona was not an isolated incident. Hashem Yerachem

Early morning Israel time, R. Nati and I spoke. He was there and has these tidbits to share...by R. Nati

The West Bank has been stripped of security forces, all have been allocated to Immoral Pride Parade protection. But, that's Friday and the forces are gone since yesterday! Scattered towns have reported odd attacks or attack preparations. Itamar was hit by a rocket, possibly a Kassam (in the West Bank). Maaleh Levonah was hit with an anti-tank missle. Ignored, not reported, no one to respond.

Meah Shearim and Geulah are the ancient ultra-orthodox neighborhoods of Jerusalem outside the old city. It's cramped living conditions but more Torah per block than any other place in the world. It's not near the 'new' parade route, nor near the secular district nor near the immoral organization's that are planning this event. It's actually bounded by Arab neighborhoods and business districts. So when they protest, they go to the local square, shout for a while, and go home. There's one main road that goes through the area, in a heated protest they'll go to the intersection and shout at passing cars. (When this happens, police will just reroute traffic for a while.)

Last night, they were protesting. But rather than reroute traffic and let them vent, or rather, let them exercise their democratic right to assembly and speech, the storm troopers (because it's not the regular police) charged the neighborhood. Black or grey uniformed, on huge horses, with shields and helmets and clubs, in they came swinging. And they were there to injure and kill. Never in my life have I seen such vicious violent attacks.

They targeted the small, the weak, those separate from the crowd. I saw a teenage boy, maybe 13, beaten just walking past on his way home. I saw a women beaten who had the nerve to walk out of her house. Beaten and beaten and beaten until unconcious, and still beaten. I was shaken by the pure rage shown by the troopers. True inhumanity on display.

But the neighborhood young men were not just going to stand there and let the blood flow. Large groups charged back chasing off the troopers. The weak charedim sitting quietly in shul and being stepped on were not to be found this night. Strong, arms locked, holy fire in their eyes, they went to defend Torah, their neighborhood, and literally the lives of the weak.

It was a battle, and it was terrible. But these people are no pushover, and even if the full security forces of Israel are brought to bear as in Gaza, they outnumber them 10:1.

Much of what I saw was right out of the navi, midrash, and holy words of the gedolim of the past. I fully believe that we're literally living the words of the prophets. But I'm too shaken right now to track down the references.

8:49 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"We should all be tearing kriah, because Amona was not an isolated incident. Hashem Yerachem"

Why didn't 300,000 chareidim petition and protest after Amona? Or do they only care when things happen in their back yard?

8:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Again you get back to well if they didn't do it here.....they don't have a right to do it there....meaning if I did not daven this morning, I should not make a bracha when I eat because G-D will view me as a hypocrite. Again G-d created us with the clear ability to live in complete hypocrisy, as do you and I my friend. We should all work on fixing the hypocracies in our lives and we would if we truly truly felt we were mamash standing in front of G-d every second of our lives. The problem is we don't feel that -- aside from the ocassional pang on Yom Kippur or Shabbos, etc. THIS DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT ARAYOS, AND PARTICULARLY OF THIS NATURE IS ONE OF THE MOST VILE THINGS BEFORE G-D. OPEN A CHUMASH PLEASE. Stop with you hatred of charedim because you've been conditioned to hate them based on the media portrayal of them. These days some of the most hated Jews in Israel are the "settlers". It was not long ago when they were the pride and joy of all the Jews. The government encouraged them to move to Gaza and Yehuda and Shomron. Now they are HATED by the non-frum and many facets of the frum world! The government and media has done a massive job of scapegoating them and turning vast portions of the populace against them! How utterly sad. Look inside of your heart...should you really have this kind of sinah for charedim?????

9:40 AM  
Anonymous Azmat said...

From JPost.com

"A Jewish invocation will be used by ultra Orthodox rabbis in Jerusalem to curse the organizers of the Gay Pride March and the police who protect them, said a spokesman for the Edah Haredit Monday.

In a ceremony known as "Pulsa D'nura" (blows of fire), rabbis of the anti-Zionist Edah Haredit rabbinic court will convene sometime before the march, which is scheduled for Friday, to conduct the kabbalistic ceremony which is believed to unleash unearthly powers against specified sinners.

According to Shmuel Poppenheim, a spokesman for the Edah Haredit, Rabbi Moshe Sternbach, head of the Edah Haredit's rabbinic court proposed conducting the ceremony during a meeting of rabbinic judges Monday morning.

11:51 AM  
Blogger Still Wonderin' said...

"THIS DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT ARAYOS, AND PARTICULARLY OF THIS NATURE IS ONE OF THE MOST VILE THINGS BEFORE G-D. OPEN A CHUMASH PLEASE."

you're not getting that 99.44% of the world has no iea what you are talking about and acting like barbarians (as the arabs do) does not lend credibility to the cause of Chareidim. They only make themselves look like backward barbarians --- even if rhat is how they view their oppostion. They just don't get that this world is reality and if they want to make a point and get something accomplished they need to act civilized.

....and conduting thir death ceremony doesn't hewlp either. They sound like a bunch of Iranians screaming "Death to Israel. Death to America."

Maybe if these schmucks would read a newspaper every now and then they'd understnad that they appear no different than the rest of this planet's fanatical whackjobs.

12:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahhh.....which gets right to the point.....lowering your sense of morality to the standards of the rest of the world. Early on Israel did what it thought was RIGHT. Forget that....it's now about bowing to Communist Russia and China, the leftist media and "Peace Loving Europe" now getting bombarded by Muslims who will ultimately destroy their culture in our lifetime, mind you. BTW I do live in this world....go to earliest minyan go to work and at desk by 7am and don't leave job till 6pm, but that does not stop me from drawing BORDERS!!! BORDERS!!! Jews are losing BORDERS!!! Since when did the desire to please the world and rally around the banners of every right under the sun in the name of democracy supercede the banner of TORAH?????? If I am upholding Torah values, I could not care less what the world thinks....I am far more concerned with what G-d thinks...period end of story! By saying a Jewish State (not a democracy by the way -- understand what a democracy truly is -- US is not one either, though closest thing but that's for another time) should accept things anti-religious -- even in their severest forms due to concerns about what the rest of the world thinks is ridiculous. Are you a JEW and servant of G-d first, or are you slave to something or someone else first??????? You know in your heart of hearts that what i speak is the emes, it just contradicts how you've been living your life so it's very hard for you to digest....THINK ABOUT IT!

12:41 PM  
Anonymous typo lad said...

So when did people forget that we're in Galut?

i think this is a good reminder, no?

12:45 PM  

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