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Monday, February 26, 2007

Great Post

There's a great post over at the Community Alliance Blog that is highly critical of both Pamela Greenbaum and her lawyer, Adam Feder, while still noting that they disagree with the comments calling Greenbaum a bigot:
Whether or not the words written on Orthomom's blog -- either by Orthomom or one of the many (mostly Orthodox) anonymous posters -- are libelous in nature, even a first year law student knows that derogatory and possibly erroneous statements aimed at a public official are not actionable without a showing of "actual malice." [We suppose that the School Board Trustee's attorney was absent from class the day New York Times vs. Sullivan was discussed!]

We can understand Pamela Greenbaum's frustration with the majority of the Lawrence School Board-- a majority that has the best interests of private school parents at heart, not public school students, or the community at large, for that matter -- and certainly Ms. Greenbaum has every right to be upset (we think "horrified" is too strong a word) when members of the Orthodox community, who rarely see beyond their own, parochial self-interests, call her a bigot and an anti-semite (statements of opinion, not fact), but clearly, there is no cause for bringing a defamation suit here, and surely, no action at law -- at least not one that could conceivably pass muster.

Pamela Greenbaum, as a staunch supporter of public education (though, in our opinion, a less than stellar representative of the cause) -- even in the face of apparent tyranny at the hands of the private school majority -- deserves praise for standing up for the public school children of Lawrence. They deserve better than what both the School Board and the voters are giving them.

To go on record saying that public funds should not be used for private schools -- a position with which we at The Community Alliance blog wholeheartedly agree -- doesn't make Ms. Greenbaum either a bigot or an anti-semite, protests by some of the more closed-minded in the Orthodox community notwithstanding.

That said, on the issue of Ms. Greenbaum's defamation suit -- designed to have a chilling effect upon free speech and public comment -- the Trustee is way off base.

Her lawsuit is nothing short of frivilous (something her attorney knew or should have known), and warrants not only outright dismissal by the trial court, but moreover, the imposition of monetary sanctions against both Greenbaum and her attorney.

Public debate and the fostering of open communications -- particularly in the forum of public education -- is not only useful, but absolutely necessary. Though unfortunate that some would stoop to name-calling and ad hominem attacks, those in the public's line of fire (as is Trustee Greenbaum), must learn to either take the heat or stay out of the kitchen.
Which goes to show you that one does not have to agree with every stated position to be a proponent of the speaker's right to state that same position. Being of the same mind on every issue is not a requirement to be a proponent of free speech and of the right given to us by the First Amendment to practice that freedom. Having (and respecting) differing opinions is what makes this country the great place it is.

132 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

DISCLAIMER
The views expressed in this blog or it's post's DO NOT reflect those of Orthodox Judaism. According to Orthodox Judaism a person is not allowed to say useless negative statements about others OR own a blog which hosts other people's negative comments.
These people do not by any means represent the Orthodox community in the 5 Towns. They represent themselves.
Nothing positive is gained by their negative rants and the world would be a better place without it. Free speech is protected by the Constitution. Useless negative speech is not protected by the Torah.

5:14 PM  
Anonymous Pro OM said...

Anono, it's not for you to decide what is "useless" and what is not, so how about shutting up?

As a matter of fact, I think the CAB blog and the OM blog are the opposite of useless.

Your negative ranting, however, I could live with out.

5:19 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous said...

DISCLAIMER
The views expressed in this blog or it's post's DO NOT reflect those of Orthodox Judaism. According to Orthodox Judaism a person is not allowed to say useless negative statements about others OR own a blog which hosts other people's negative comments.
These people do not by any means represent the Orthodox community in the 5 Towns. They represent themselves.
Nothing positive is gained by their negative rants and the world would be a better place without it. Free speech is protected by the Constitution. Useless negative speech is not protected by the Torah.


Uh, right. Because it's "useless and negative" to talk about something such as the fact that some of our children are getting drunk and stoned with ZERO in the way of parental supervision. Thanks for your disclaimer. It was very necessary, I'm sure.

5:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Which goes to show you that one does not have to agree with every stated position to be a proponent of the speaker's right to state that same position."

OM: I'm surprised that you felt you needed to print that paragraph. It seems (to me, anyway) that you thought (or think others think) that anyone who is a proponent of passing the school budget would think this discovery motion was a good idea.

My personal feelings about PG aside, I do feel that there is a lynch mob mentality on this blog (not necessarily created by you, btw) in regard to PG and the entire public school community. There are very few commenters here that will give ANY credence to what their "opposition" is saying, no matter what the issue. (Come on now, does anyone REALLY think a pre-k and k building should not have safe fire escapes?!)

The fact that so many bloggers have decided that AB residents are bigots and want their kids segregated ... this is galling. Forget about the fact that #6 school is over 50% minority, making this statement ridiculous. But coming from the Orthodox community, this is downright absurd...LOL stuff. Everyone knows it's just another attempt to yet again close a school, regardless if it's feasible or not.

Having said all of the above, I will defend your right to have your rants. I happen to agree wholeheartedly that this lawsuit is completely frivolous. While I don't believe this case has any merit, I don't even like the idea of it. I have been online since the early 80's and like everything else, when a good thing gets too common and too big, it gets bastardized. The thought of courts tracking down online identities of non-criminals is scary.

I also feel very badly for PG. I think she's frustrated, and IMO, rightfully so. She has received terrible advice from her attorney. In the end, I believe she is only hurting herself. As for Adam Feder...well, I don't think he did himself any favors, career-wise.

6:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I have been online since the early 80's"

On what line?

6:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the above Anon,
Please explain to me why a public school student has any more rights to use the public school facilities after school hours than a private school student, so long as the facilities are not being used for religious instruction?
It is not the student's school building, it is society's building, and it's primary use is to educate society's children. Once that primary use is completed any secondary use is completely independant, and there should be no reason for anyone to be charged unless one charges public school students the same rate. If you don't see discrimination in that, then I can't help you.

6:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There was also no justification for Pam Greenbaum to oppose the prospect of District-funded extracurricular or enrichment programs open to public and private school children in the early morning - BUT SHE DID. (I won't venture to say why she opposed it, since nobody needs another frivolous lawsuit.)

6:49 PM  
Blogger NYFunnyman said...

they usually dont teach NY Times v Sullivan in 1st year con law classes, as there is a separate class for 1st amendment law

6:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 6:37: I'm sorry...is my age showing? I meant communicating on the internet. If your comment was in fact, trying to make fun of me, then you have proven what I said above.

anon 6:42: There are too many variables for after school building usage so the way you posed the question, I can't answer it. I do know that Lawrence-Cedarhurst Little League pays for building use though. Or used to, when there were inside practices.
For games, the buildings are closed and there are no bathroom facilities available to our kids.

Thanks for your offer, but I don't need your help in understanding discrimination. Why be snide ?

Anon 6:49 - Indefensible. Unless the programs were intended to be only for the private school kids and not open to all.

7:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 6:37: I'm sorry...is my age showing? I meant communicating on the internet. If your comment was in fact, trying to make fun of me, then you have proven what I said above.

I would guess that Anon 6:37 was merely questioning the implication of your comment - that the internet as we know it existed before the 1990's

7:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OM,

Here's a new blog that you and others should to have a look at.

Maybe it will give you a better understanding of how some others in the Jewish blog world see this issue:

Ploni Baloney

8:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 7:59 - I did assume at first that is what he or she meant, but from my perspective, there is a lot of mockery and hostility here.

Anyway, the internet as it is today perhaps didn't exist before the 90's (I really don't remember when AOL came on the scene) but internet communication has been around a lot longer. I used to work for Compuserve running online games in chat rooms.

I actually met my husband online in 1989.

8:21 PM  
Anonymous sad ps mom said...

you know, i feel i have to say that this is a pity. of all the enmity that exists here, its like greebaum et al are wearing blinders if they think om is the source of the problem, and that attempting to silence her will solve the fracture here. om is certainly not an offender, she always shows respect to her commenters even if she disagrees. i say this as a public school mom who has been following this blog for a while. this blog may get the people who i disagree with on many issues that affect my children directly, but thats ok. thats why we have these types of forums. why is this any different than the school board meetings i attend? is pam going to start suing parents who speak up there? i think this is a bad precedent to set, and a bad example for my children who have been taught they can speak up about anything.

i wish this never happened. this will make things so much worse. does anyone think that suing orthomom will get a budget approved? who thought this was best for the kids? this will just make the fracture wider and deeper. it makes me want to cry.

i was always a champion of pam. i always thought that she wanted what was best for my kids. i cant say im so sure anymore. excuse me if this sounds outdated, but we should have made peace not war.

om, please accept my apologies for the miguided act of my so called elected official. i am deeply embarassed that this was allowed to progress to this level and i hope you consider endorsing passing the budget despite pam's behavior here.

some of us are good people, good parents, who just want our kids to get whats best for them. please consider us and our blameless kids when you rally your community to vote against our kids education.

thank you.

8:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...


Uh, right. Because it's "useless and negative" to talk about something such as the fact that some of our children are getting drunk and stoned with ZERO in the way of parental supervision. Thanks for your disclaimer. It was very necessary, I'm sure.
OM-
Is this post about winter break or more USELESS negative talk about PG
I didn't post the disclaimer on that post which I thought was very important.

8:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your negative ranting, however, I could live with out.so how about shutting up?

hmm telling someome to shut up, sounds pretty USELESS and negative.
It's the use of useless negative statements such as yours that I wrote the disclaimer so that people do not get the wrong idea that Orthodox Jews SAY TO EACH OTHER THINGS LIKE "how about shutting up" Thank you for proving the need for the disclaimer.
As for who defines useless you are right it is not for me or you to define. The Torah defines it.
I would repectfully suggest looking into it.

8:55 PM  
Blogger Mike Miller said...

OM,
You may find this interesting:
http://www.acsblog.org/economic-regulation-employment-federal-court-reaffirms-immunity-of-bloggers-from-suits-brought-against-commenters.html
Yet another recent decision against people who bring lawsuits against bloggers.

9:39 PM  
Blogger Aaron said...

I came across this on Slashdot.org, perhaps it may be of help. The following link is to an article speaking about a case similar to yours. The court of appeals found that blogs or other forums cannot be held responsible for comments.

http://tinyurl.com/yo4amb

This next one is a link to the actual court ruling. Be warned, it is a PDF.

http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opinions/06-1826-01A.pdf

Best of luck!

10:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sad ps mom:

Great post. I agree completely with everything you said here.

11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the sincere blogger who tries to
justify the segregation in the elementary schools in our district with the population of number 6 school. As Vicki Karant did at an early meeting in INwood NUmber 2 (she is asst supt for curriculum and education) why not look at the demographics of 6,5 and 2. Two is by far the worst.,by some measurements 21/2 times as segregated along demographic and economic criteria as Number 5. Our children deserve the best education possible, they also deserve it,in this country, in a public school system that honors Brown vs the Bd of Education as the law of the land. This district has always said it believed in its diversity. Now is the time to show it.The public schools must be revamped to adjust for disparity.

12:04 AM  
Anonymous jmaimarc said...

This just in:
Federal Court Reaffirms Immunity of Bloggers from Suits Brought Against Commenters

http://www.acsblog.org/economic-regulation-employment-federal-court-reaffirms-immunity-of-bloggers-from-suits-brought-against-commenters.html

Looks like the Federal government just rained on Greenbaum's parade.

2:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

12:04 - I wasn't trying to justify anything, just stating the facts. I am for the Princeton Plan. However, the crocodile tears cried at this blogsite for the poor minorities are offensive because it's disengenuous. Be honest and say what it is you want: Close A School. When it was suggested that the HS be closed and the Middle School become 7-12...that didn't go over too well in the Lawrence community, did it? I didn't hear one Public School parent complain about that scenario if the numbers worked out to reasonable class size and fire codes were adhered to.

#2 happens to be a great school. The Principal and the teachers that I know of are of the finest caliber.

If you are so worried about "at risk" kids, you should agree that it is simple fact that not every child is college bound. It's a disgrace on this district that we no longer allow our children to participate in the many BOCES programs in which the students learn a trade, enabling them to obtain employment right out of High School. The HS used to have electives such as secretarial skills and bookkeeping. Would you be willing to pay for these things via your taxes? I would. My children would probably not be utilizing these services, but yet I have stood before the Board and asked why we don't participate in these programs.

8:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just to add to the internet tangent (and to the moron who doesn't believe that there internet didn't exist in the 80s):

My children wouldn't exist if the internet didn't exist in the mid-80s (when I met my wife over what was then called bitnet).

9:12 AM  
Anonymous Barbara said...

I apologize for coming late to this subject but I have been thinking about it for the last couple days and Orthomom - the bottom line is you did NOTHING wrong.

Defamation and slander have, at their base, TRUTH as a 100% defense. However, Ms. Greenbaum's offense was taken at subjective comments - and unless she can prove it caused her HARM (lost her job, lost her home, etc) substantive HARM - she's out of luck.

Heck - people call me ugly and you know what? I am. So what. I guess I have reached an age where everything that can be said about me has been - so I rely on my character and ACTIONS to speak for me.

Her attorney is probably trying to make a name for himself and making some money off of Ms. Greenbaum. I cannot believe the stupidity of a judge ordering you to appear - though having worked in the legal system for years and having sat in chambers to get papers signed while some judge was trying to get out the door by 3pm after a 2 1/2 hr. lunch - I can see how this happens. (Just look at the judges being sued and fired across the US for sexual impropriety as well as case tampering!)

Please let this organization know about this case, if you haven't already:
http://www.eff.org/bloggers/

The anonymity and ability to speak out is a blogger's basic right.

Stay strong.

9:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do domestic violence work - and the FIRST things an abusive person tries to do is:

1. SILENCE you

2. DISCREDIT or SMEAR you

3. THREATEN you (lawsuits fall under this category)

I am not saying PG is abusive but she really needs to examine her heart and her motives for what she is doing.

9:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

US First Circuit Decision issued just last week: Bloggers immune from libel lawsuits from commenters.

http://www.acsblog.org/economic-regulation-employment-federal-court-reaffirms-immunity-of-bloggers-from-suits-brought-against-commenters.html

9:57 AM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

anon 8:19 Cool! I remember the bitnet...

10:05 AM  
Anonymous Observer said...

Sad ps mom: don't fall into the trap of believing that all private school/yeshiva parents vote against the budget. Except for the election where the proposed budget was lower than the contingency budget (so that the real issue was trust in the then current School Board) I have always voted for the budget. On the other hand, I find it offensive that people try to turn this into a religious-secular conflict when it is an economic issue. There was a front page article in the Times last week about a district in Arizona with no public schools at all, becaue the majority of the district's voters were retirees/seniors without children in the public school system. Their de-funding of the system was a pocketbook issue, not religious, and I believe the same to be true here too. While I personally feel that the community (and therfore me and my family) is (are) bettered in the long run through a well-funded public school system, the economic and demographic realities of the community were ignored for so long that the backlash is being felt. (my use of the word "backlash" might not be fair to the current school board which, despite my fears since with all my fears, so far as I have been able to tell so far they have taken their responsibility to the public school students in the community very seriously). I don't want to lead everybody in singing kumbayah, but maybe it is time we all started to get along -- not just by agreeing that Ms. Greenbaum's suit was a pretty bad idea -- but by working together to ensure that all children in the District benefit from expenditures somewhat porportinate to the community's economic level.

11:11 AM  
Blogger The Community Alliance said...

Thanks for the plug, Orthomom!

At The Community Alliance blog, we believe that everyone -- regardless of point of view -- should be permitted to express their opinions, freely and without fear of retribution, name-calling, or baseless lawsuit.

Your blog is truly unique in that it offers a broad array of perspectives, and allows the ordinary Joe (or Yussel) to comment.

Whether valid or not, broadly held or particularly unpopular, the debate occasioned by postings such as this is vital, not only in the life of a community, but in all of human relations.

Yes, we may disagree at times -- in principle and in application -- but there can be no disagreement as concerns an open and frank discussion of the important (and not so important) issues of the day.

WRITE ON, ORTHOMOM!
- - -
READ THE COMMUNITY ALLIANCE BLOG EVERY DAY AT http://thecommunityalliance.blogspot.com/
- - -
P.S. Some readers have made inquiry as to why we do not allow ANONYMOUS comments at The Community Alliance blog, but require users to register prior to posting.

Simply put, back in the day when we did allow ANONYMOUS posts, we were inundated with SPAM generated by automated posters.

Requiring registration does not remove the cloak of anonimity, however. One can still register under a psuedonym (i.e., Leaving Children Behind In Lawrence), which, in reality, is no different than signing in as ANONYMOUS.

Of course, in the final analysis, we believe that, if it isn't worthy of your name, it probably isn't worth saying!

11:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sadly, once again this is all about the adults and not the children. Equality for all, the community cries. Who is the equality for parents? Orthomom you always print blogs about democracy, and the allowance of parent of non public children on a board. The beauty of democracy is Pam Greenbaum has a right to file a lawsuit. I don't know about this community, but good for her. Look at it this way, the non public always takes great pleasure in telling everyone how they have a right to sit on the board, it is America, so why is it different when Pam Greenbaum files this suit? It is just another opportunity for certain members of this community to stir trouble. Orthomom you have to know she just wants to know who you are. This is not about money. With the election coming up and 3 seats up for grabs, let us be realistic what this is all about,,,,, Either way it really does not matter who wins. I can give tell you exactly what is going to happen. The board is split, 4 private 3 public, budget passes at 3.5%, teachers contract although contributing the highest to all benefits in Nassau County, will continue to be blamed. The #1 school proceeds will be returned to the tax payers for a refund of 1.00 per family. Spitzer will then step in create legislation like in East Ramapo, and remind the board and the district its LEGAL responsibilities to the children of the district, and to the public schools, Pre-k busing will be passed, free builidng usage, not, and hopefully the state will remove all members of the administration and board. This way we can start all over.

12:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone notice this posting bashes the board and the communities treatment of the public schools??? Or shall we ignore what everyone sees?

12:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How much do you want to wager that, notwithstanding having a majority on the school board (and thus, a budget developed by that majority), the Orthodox community of Lawrence will once again vote down the school budget in May?

The intent over the years has been as obvious as it is onerous -- to dismantle a public school system, and all that it brings to a community.

While Loshan Horah forbids one to say bad things about another, surely there must be a proscription to doing things that are harmful to and destructive of community.

Perhaps something akin to, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," or perhaps, "Thou shalt not covet public tax dollars to fund a parochial education!"

12:14 PM  
Anonymous reallawyerwithabrain said...

Orthomom you have to know she just wants to know who you are. This is not about money.

Exactly. So you concede that the statements in Pam's that she feels she was damaged and wants to bring a lawsuit are lies. And you admit that Pam is using the legal system not to right an alleged wrong but to satisfy her curtiousity as to the identity of her critics. While living in a democracy does mean being able to run for office regardless of one's religious beliefs, it does not include the ability to lie in sworn statements or to cynically misuse the legal system.

12:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Poor Pam Greenbaum. She's really humiliating herself. Even her supporters are saying so. She'll probably have to move out of town when this thing boils over. And no one with have a neuron will ever hire her lawyer.

12:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please don't overstate the importance of this case. This is not a first amendment issue. This is simply a matter of whether you should be able to protect your anonymity. (You should be able to, I don't see how Ms. Greenbaum has any standing here.) Even if you can't stay anonymous, your free speech is not impinged. At all.
You may face some ostracism, but given the popularity of your blog, I suspect that you'd have a lot of support either way. I also suspect that you'd be a bit more careful about the laws of Loshon Hara as the first commenter intimated. (Your response was simply a straw man argument. Though you have some useful stuff you also have vindictive stuff that clearly crosses the line.)

1:02 PM  
Anonymous reallawyerwithabrain said...

Please don't overstate the importance of this case. This is not a first amendment issue.

Of course it is, at least according to the Supreme Court:

[A]n author’s decision to remain anonymous, like other decisions concerning omissions or additions to the content of a publication, is an aspect of the freedom of speech protected by the First Amendment.

McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Comm., 514 U.S. 334 (1995).

1:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Even if you can't stay anonymous, your free speech is not impinged. At all.
You may face some ostracism, but given the popularity of your blog, I suspect that you'd have a lot of support either way. I also suspect that you'd be a bit more careful about the laws of Loshon Hara as the first commenter intimated."

I'm not a "reallawyer", but I do know that if OM would face some ostracism, then it totally WOULD impinge[sic] on her free speech. That's what the right to speak anonymously is all about. The right to speak one's mind, without worry of harassment or ostracism. Come back when you know what you're talking about, anon 1:02.

As far as Om's posts being vindictive, I have never seen that here. I view her as the voice of reason on issues across teh spectrum. You are the only one that seems to be vindictive.

1:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I stand corrected. Though I am more in agreement with Justice Scalia's dissent I can imagine no reason why an anonymous leaflet is any more honorable, as a general matter, than an anonymous phone call or an anonymous letter. It facilitates wrong by eliminating accountability, which is ordinarily the very purpose of the anonymity. There are of course exceptions, and where anonymity is needed to avoid "threats, harassment, or reprisals" the First Amendment will require an exemption from the Ohio law. Cf. NAACP v. Alabama ex rel. Patterson, 357 U.S. 449 (1958). But to strike down the Ohio law in its general application – and similar laws of 48 other States and the Federal Government – on the ground that all anonymous communication is in our society traditionally sacrosanct, seems to me a distortion of the past that will lead to a coarsening of the future.

1:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How am I vindictive? I do think she goes over board in some - but not all - of her criticisms.

If that's vindictive then you are very small minded.

I though you folks supported dissent.

1:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How am I vindictive? I do think she goes over board in some - but not all - of her criticisms.

If that's vindictive then you are very small minded.

I though you folks supported dissent.

1:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" Anonymous said...

How am I vindictive? I do think she goes over board in some - but not all - of her criticisms.

If that's vindictive then you are very small minded.

I though you folks supported dissent. "

That's exactly the point. You look so silly. You are explaining why what you did is not vindictive. If you knew the meaning of the word, you wouldn't call OM vindictive either (she never is). I don't even think she goes overboard in her criticisms. Do you get out much? I don't think so if you think anything on these pages is criticism gone overboard.

And "we folks" do support dissent. Which is what Om's blog is about.

1:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"There are of course exceptions, and where anonymity is needed to avoid "threats, harassment, or reprisals" the First Amendment will require an exemption from the Ohio law. "

Scalia is describing the Orthodox community right there. I doubt that in the LW Yeshivish world that OM and her ilk seem to reside, people like proncipals and rabbis will accept a blogger with open arms. Even a blogger as parvenu as OM. (Sorry, OM, but I call it like I see it.)

1:49 PM  
Blogger Krum as a bagel said...

Even a blogger as parvenu as OM.

I think you mean "pareve." In fact, your misuse of the word "parvenu" as a substitute for good old "pareve" is so...parvenu. Oh, the irony!

Look it up.

2:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would be vindictive if I said I hope she loses the suit. I didn't.

I believe that she can be vindictive and unfair and has been.

You don't.

We disagree and you claim that I am vindictive because I am small minded. (That I read a blog that I disagree with a significant amount of the time shows that I'm small minded?)

According to you that makes me vindictive and, now, silly.

And you support dissent?

Spare me the hypocrisy.

2:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think Pam Greenbaum is in any way embarassing herself, and I have my kids in private school. It is her right to sue, let her sue. I think it is horrendous anyone would call her a bigot or anti-semite, let us blame the only woman on the board. While Dr. Sussman let 18million slip away while he was president, and watch the school scores slip we blame Pam Greenbaum. So I wonder, is Sussmans wife making the comments, or are people that naive. Either way once again the Five Towns is in the news. I also find it amusing that not one person has commented on the Religous community being portrayed so poorly again. I guess finding out who Orthomom is, trumps the children of this district. You see we are all equal, our children are equally ignored.

2:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hah. You "disagree with OM a significant amount of the time" and that makes her "vindictive". And yet, you claim to tolerate dissent. If you disagree with something it doesn't make it vindictive. It just means you disagree. Also, you used the phrase "small minded". Not me. All you do here is call people names. "Vindictive". "Small-minded". "Hypocritical". "Intolerant of dissent". "Unfair".

I am heading out, so enjoy your last word. I'm sure it will make you look as vindictive, small-minded and intolerant of dissent as your first few did.

Oh, do I abhor it when people try to win an argument by throwing insults out. You said this has nothing to do with the First Amendment. You were 100% wrong. You said OM is vindictive. The definition of vindictive is: disposed to seek revenge. The only person here who looks vindictive is Pam Greenbaum.

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Ticked off 5T Mom said...

Your comment is begging to be demolished, so I will do so.
Anonymous said...

I don't think Pam Greenbaum is in any way embarassing herself, and I have my kids in private school.


Sure you do.

It is her right to sue, let her sue.

No. It isn't her right to file a false and fraudulent claim under oath that says that OM made statements that her commentators did.

I think it is horrendous anyone would call her a bigot or anti-semite, let us blame the only woman on the board.

No one called her anti-semite. Ever. And it had nothing to do with her being a woman. It had to do with her giving a quote to a newspaper in which she took a position on a subject that is very controversial. That can get people angry. Can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen, man or woman. Calling someone a bigot isn't very nice. It is also nothing more than an insult.

While Dr. Sussman let 18million slip away while he was president,

It was 16.1, and the money was handily found in an audit.

and watch the school scores slip we blame Pam Greenbaum.

I never saw anyone blame Pam herself for the low scores. There are a confluence of reasons for that having happened. No performance incentives in the contract is a start. The fact that Pam approved the contract that allowed that is just one cog in the dysfunctional Lawrence machinery.

So I wonder, is Sussmans wife making the comments, or are people that naive

Sussman's wife, Mansdorf's wife. Can't you just accept that there are regular Joes out there who are displeased with the status quo?

Either way once again the Five Towns is in the news. I also find it amusing that not one person has commented on the Religous community being portrayed so poorly again

That's precisely what this was designed to do. The difference between us and Pam is that we can stand the scrutiny of being in the public eye. She obviously cannot.

I guess finding out who Orthomom is, trumps the children of this district.

You are completely right. Pam and her very smart attorney decided that suing for some blogger's identity was important. More important than crappy test scores. More important than trying to make peace in order to pass a budget. Thanks Pam.

You see we are all equal, our children are equally ignored.

No, my children are not ignored. I would never care more about spending my money to sue someone than I would about paying their tuition. That's the difference between me and someone like Pam.

2:45 PM  
Anonymous Barbara said...

You call ORTHOMOM vindictive.

What's the difference in America between vindictive and having an opinion?

I read blogs of people I disagree with all the time. Sometimes I even respectfully comment.

We are living in America right? Or would PG have us go to a more fascist state?

Sad situation but Orthomom? vindictive? I don't see it.

2:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Call people names? I described some of OM's writing as vindictive. Yes, some of it is. I did not cite examples but I've read it and it's not hard to find. (I think she wrote a post called "Piling on.")You disagree with me on that.

You called me vindictive though I didn't "seek revenge" in any way.

I am not an unquestioning fan of OM and that, in your book, makes me small minded.

So be it. But don't claim that you tolerate dissent.

2:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You don't need to be an "unquestioning fan". You just should call things correctly. And calling someone who takes issue with things that bother her "vindictive" makes me laugh. Oh, and that post, "piling on" that you just sent me to? Vengeful? Vindictive? You might have been looking for a different word that was evading you. That word is "angry". And there's nothing wrong with being angry. Especially considering the topic in that post, child abuse.

2:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It wasn't "angry" it was vicious.

3:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing like watching idiotic commenters spar over the tone of a months-old post.

3:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did you even read the post? It's far less "vicious", for example, than the recent Yated Ne'eman article against Yeshivat Chovevei Torah. You should get out more. Or read more in the way Charedi publications. Perhaps then Om's highly debatable"viciousness" and "vindictiveness" won't offend your sensitivites.

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4:44 PM  
Anonymous Itzhak Schier said...

The lawsuit is beyond absurd. Period. Ortho, I hope you do not need to spend an inordinate amount of time or money defending yourself against such nonsense.

5:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am so glad I read the article in the nassau herald about this case and found this web site. Reading all of the comments here makes me laugh. On one hand you get the people who tell you that true orthodox people are forbidden to say bad things about another and then they get ripped by other people for their comments. One thing I now know for certain is that there is a ( as you like to say) pogram by most of your community to dismantle the public schools. You people say never forget! Well I guess that only applies to Jews. What you are doing to this community is just as bad as burning books. Save all your anti-semite remarks. You are the bigots, the ones filled with hate for anyone who is not of your religon. You can tell me all you want about the torah and it's teachings but as it is said actions speak louder than words and your actions show just how disgusting you are. So go ahead call me anti-semite, bigot , small minded, but the truth is there for everyone to read. I know this does not reflect your whole community but it sure looks to be the majority of it. So keep writing it gives me a good chuckle. As I said before I am not an anti-semite just anti-orthodox.

8:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 8:21, you are the only bigot on this comment thread. Keep chuckling.

8:28 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

You know, it's amusing that a post in which I champion free speech turns into one where in turn, people think it's perfectly acceptable to throw invectives and insults at each other - and whole communities. Free speech doesn't mean bickering like schoolchildren. Grow up, people. Nice to see the point flying right over so many of your heads.

To the rest of the rational ones, thanks for the kind words and support.

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Oh I am The only thing that would be better is if you yehuda boys put up a ring and beat the hell out of each other

8:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"yehuda boys"? anyone else lost? I know it's an attempt at a crude and bigoted comment, I'm just not sure what the guy is trying to say.

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Anonymous goyguy said...

Anonymous said...

"yehuda boys"? anyone else lost? I know it's an attempt at a crude and bigoted comment, I'm just not sure what the guy is trying to say.

8:39 PM

Let me translate:

"I have lived in the Five Towns my whole life and have managed never to have had one Jewish friend, have never talked to any of my Jewish neighbors except to say 'don't let your dog shit on my lawn', think that Jews control Wall Street, Hollywood and the Lawrence school board [okay, that one's true ;-)],and am very well aware that all you people vote against us just like the rabbis tell you."

Or the short version:

"The Jews killed Jesus"

This is in no way to be confused with the previous comment by this poster:

"I am not an anti-semite just anti-orthodox."

Now let's play nice, children...

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

pretty sick stuff - sounds like the type of person who might threaten the lives of board members and their families

12:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In summary:

Has this blog ( centered around the discussion of a specific person ) and it's posts brought to the 5 towns and the world

1) A Kiddush Hashem or Chilul Hashem

2) Ahavas Yisroel or Sinas Chinam

3) Unity or division

Please give these questions some meaningful thought.
You are a talented writer and there is so much good that can come out of writing. Why waste it on this?
The only thing good that has come out of this is an increased number of hits.
Right or wrong people are offended and hurt. Is it worth it? Was there some sort of pending tragedy prevented through these posts.
I doubt it.
Your human interest stories are great. It's the local politics and name calling that is futile.

12:44 AM  
Blogger YMedad said...

DovBear seems to think you have a slam-dunk OM: http://www.acsblog.org/economic-regulation-employment-federal-court-reaffirms-immunity-of-bloggers-from-suits-brought-against-commenters.html

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4:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"
Has this blog ( centered around the discussion of a specific person ) and it's posts brought to the 5 towns and the world"

Orthomom never centered the discussion around the specific person. She always posted on the 5T school board issues responsibly and resonably. The fact is, she wasn;t the one to start this war. Someone else (the specific person) brought a COURT ACTION. OM is simply protecting herself. As I feel she should.

8:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The hatred in this community is scary. Yes, there is freedom of speech. It is those who abuse this freedom that brings us all to this particular forum. Pam has a right to file this lawsuit. I have read attacks on this woman that are horrific. It is obvious that she really wants to know who Orthomom is. If she wants to spend the money, great more power to her. It is time for this community ALL of it to stop blaming. It is far easier to blame a group of people for the failure. Historically we know it might not be the best idea to allow such thinking. Wouldn’t it be nice if there was this much outcry about buildings in desperate need of repair, and a community who that refuses to allow monies that are from the sale of #1 to be used? The board this community boasted about, equality, fiscal responsibility, is in place. You can’t close all the schools. They need to be repaired. . Review of other districts top districts will not open the eyes of those who really could care less about public schools. Clubs, field trips, technology, foreign language, to name a few, cooking clubs (Roslyn) are offered at those top schools. Perhaps one of the greatest problems is the lack of information to the community on what NY state mandates for the public schools. Either way, Orthomom is right to allow free speech, and Pam is right if she believes the site is defaming her, whether we agree or not. That folks is the beauty of this country.

8:39 AM  
Anonymous Woodmerer Rebbe, Esq. said...

"It is obvious that she really wants to know who Orthomom is. If she wants to spend the money, great more power to her."

You obviously don't seem to understand. The matter isn't whether Pam has right to spend her money to find out who OM is. The problem is that it is completely illegal to file an Order to Show Cause with no intention to actually go ahead with the defamation suit. And considering that OM never said a defamatory word about Pam, the law protects her from any defamation claims. So really, it isn't Pam's right to spend her money to find out who OM is if she's misusing the courts to do so. Which I feel she is. It also isn't her right to file a fraudulent claim where she flat-out makes stuff up.

So the same way OM's free speech is allowed within limits (and OM NEVER went over those limits), Pam is allowed to sue OM within limts (and I think filing a fraudulent claim is over that limit).

8:46 AM  
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it would not suprise me if anon 8:21 thinks the death threats were fabricated in order to control the school board meetings

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It may be that Ms. Greenbaum brought this action for the sole purpose of trying to enhance her chances of getting re-elected by keeeping her name in the news.

Why hasn't Dr Fitsimmons joined her suit?

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