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Sunday, July 15, 2007

More Camp Complaints

My daughter's camp requires that all girls over a certain age - and that age is not Bat Mitzvah - wear socks that cover their entire leg. She went up to camp with numerous pairs of washable, easy-care knee socks that I figured would be comfortable and practical. Evidently not. Apparently, the tween set likes to wear sheer nude pantyhose. Which my daughter didn't bring enough of. Which I now have to send up to camp - so she can get one wearing out of each pair. And I thought campers with cell phones was the only way camp had changed since I was a kid.

Argh.

169 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous in Teaneck said...

Just for clarification - the girls at your daughter's camp, who are younger than 12, are wearing pantyhose during their daily activities at summer camp.

Just making sure I understand the situation.

9:37 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

Anonymous in Teaneck said...

Just for clarification - the girls at your daughter's camp, who are younger than 12, are wearing pantyhose during their daily activities at summer camp.

Just making sure I understand the situation.



Correct. I'm also scratching my head.

9:40 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...

And the camp permits this??

When I was at school, we were required to take our stockings off for gym for safety reasons.

Playing sports in stockings doesn't sound like a brilliant idea to me...

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think my kids go to the same camp, but my daughter wanted nude knee highs which she wore with short socks over.

10:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do they wear socks and pantyhose in the pool as well?

What's next on the list -- a burka?

10:42 PM  
Anonymous Chaim Yankel said...

Solution to Problem Number 1:

Never send your kid to a camp that is overly worried about how much leg your 10 year old daughter is showing.

Solution to Problem Number 2:

Never send you kid to a camp where 10 year old girls wear nude colored pantyhose to do 'camp-type' stuff. This isn't a night on the town.

10:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, sheer stockings are all the rage. I guess they are a way for the girls to cover the leg while looking like they aren't. You know, the letter of the law?

12:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, I'll bet the sheer stockings go great with your daughters juicy tops and hard tail skirts. OM, I thought you were above all this garbage. I guess not.

12:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My daughter asked me to bring her uo the same thing for visiting day. So either they are in the same camp or its epidemic.

1:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hate wearing stockings to work at 30. I wonder how much I would hate it if I started going it 20 years ago.

1:06 AM  
Anonymous we're watching you said...

Got back from the Country early tonight, OM?

1:11 AM  
Blogger mother in israel said...

OM, I'd be interested in a post about why you choose to send your children to schools and camps whose hashkafa is so different from yours? Clothes are not even the issue; I'm wondering whether you and the schools/camps have similar ideas about, say, the value of women's higher education, kollel, etc.

2:12 AM  
Blogger eem said...

Many of the girls camps have a rule that the girls have to wear knee socks, even when their crowd of girls is not necessarily so right wing or "yeshivish" ...but panyhose?Sounds warm.

3:25 AM  
Anonymous J.J. said...

Why is your kid in this rediculous camp?

3:38 AM  
Blogger MDmom said...

ick. i'm sweating just thinking about her.

7:12 AM  
Anonymous still wonderin' (and still too lazy to log in) said...

I think that as a public service, you should reveal the name of this camp so I can avoid sending my daughters there.

7:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"
mother in israel said...

OM, I'd be interested in a post about why you choose to send your children to schools and camps whose hashkafa is so different from yours? "



Where did you get that from? Because the girls choose to wear stockings? That's not a haskafic choice. This is about trends in dressing. I don't feel that OM has shown us that there's anything there she might oppose haskafically.

7:52 AM  
Anonymous Rachel said...

It's funny that this is now a "rediculous camp" and a camp with a different hashkafa than OM. My daiughter attends a camp where some of the girls choose to wear nude pantyhose and it isn't really a big deal. It's amazing that OM cant complain about it without a campaign started by her readers to bash the camp.

In MO camps, the kids have started a trend of wearing cordorouy cargo pants in the middle of the summer. I don't know why, but I hear it's a new trend. That is just as much as a hashkafic choice as the nude pantyhose. That is to say, it isn't one.

7:59 AM  
Anonymous still wonderin' (and still too lazy to log in) said...

Rachel, I could care less if the girls choose to wrap their legs in bubble wrap. My problem with the story is how ridiculous it is for a camp to insist that 10-year-old girls wear knee-high socks all summer. And that if this is a problem to OM, that she sends her daughter to this camp altogether.

I do suspect, however, that if she were to send her daughter to a camp that was even a shade less faux than Camp Sweat-a-Lot (which I'd guess is Camp Hedva), it would create a problem with her daughters' school.

8:15 AM  
Blogger Helen Conway said...

I am neither Jewish nor American but I am fascinated with all this discussion about camps. Here in the UK whilst the 'upper classes' might have sent their kids to Boarding school in school term, we just don't have the same concept of sending children away for the summer. But for the record British kids all get obsessed with how to interpret uniform. I remember at 11 white tights and white shoes(pantyhose) were the 'in' thing no matter what the activity. One pair of my shoes went in the bin when a donkey at a petting farm stood on my foot!

8:18 AM  
Blogger mother in israel said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't believe that you are all suckered into this.

Below the elbow, below the knees. That's it.

I worked at Camp Sternberg in the Catskills as a director for many, many years (I am Chani, in case anyone remembers).

It is amazing how Orthodoxy is getting so extreme. Maybe Burkas are the answers, next to those nun's habits some frum women wear.

9:20 AM  
Anonymous Observer said...

OM -- Hope you don't mind if I go totally off-topic for a PSA. REMINDER: Over a full year has passed since IDF soldiers Gilad Shalit, Ehud Goldwasser, and Eldad Regev were kidnapped by Hamas and Hezbollah.

There will be a rally today to show the world we have not forgotten and will not forget them or Israel's other MIAs.
Demand their immediate and unconditional release!

Today. Monday, July 16, 2007
12:00 noon Rain or Shine
Dag Hammarskjold Plaza
(1st Ave. and 47th St.). Thanks.

10:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FYI -your "below 12?" confusion is misplaced.
Girls are obligated in Mitzvahs at 12.
Parents are obligated to have their daughters dress tznius(modestly) when the are 9. Rav Moshe Feinstien speaks about this. Please consult your local Rabbi.
"Its not Haskafa its Halacha"

11:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yet another way in which the frum community throws out money. To wear delicate pantyhose that will rip after one wearing when tights or knee-highs would do is so incredibly wasteful. Who are these young girls trying to impress with their 'almost bare' legs, anyway?

11:31 AM  
Blogger Dr. E said...

The girls camp scene has become over-the-top as each tries to out-tzniyus the other. The whole purpose of camp is to have fun in a wholesome (frum) environment. While tzniyus plays A role, it should not occupy the entire preface or bold type of the camp's marketing materials and acceptance letters. There are very few camps today which have their collective heads screwed on straight (the one exception that I am familar with was mentioned by an "Anonymous" above). Frum girls camps are so concerned with their own image/reputation that they co-opt Halacha to validate their new-found standards. They are interested in homogeneity/conformity to ensure the "right type of girl". But, really it is a reaction to what the more "Modern" or even "Chareidi Lite" (summer) camps find acceptable. Whether it's the influence of the Chassidish directly or indirectly (by Yeshivish insecure with their Litvishness) this is a development that will ultimately backfire (and has already, when the girls and parents ultimately question the nonsense with which they are being fed under the guise of Halacha)

It's really the same case with school uniforms, dress codes, and other narishkeit rule--only more ridiculous given the heat of the summer and the fact that the camp environment is all-girls.

12:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

only more ridiculous given the heat of the summer and the fact that the camp environment is all-girls.


While I agree that women (and girls who are old enough) should be tzinut, even around only other women, I find the following hard to believe:

1. That even if a man sees a young girls leg, between the knee and ankle that there is any tzinut issue, (likewise the arm from the albow to the wrist).

2. That any man that is concerned about their self control when seeing a young girls leg, between the knee and ankle that there is any tzinut issue, (likewise the arm from the albow to the wrist), has a lot greater issues then tzinut, and

3. How can in a women only environment, a young girls leg, between the knee and ankle , (likewise the arm from the albow to the wrist), be an issue of non tzinut??


Please help my MO mind to understand??

1:21 PM  
Blogger Dr. E said...

Anonymous-

There is nothing to understand, for a MO mind or any intellectually honest one for that matter. That's because they make the stuff up as they go along--to further a social agenda, not to present a Halachic reality.

1:31 PM  
Blogger dd said...

Please help my MO mind to understand??

firstly it is called chinuch a parent is obligated to train their child to follow halacha even before they reach the age of being michuyav
secondly tznius is not only about men seeing -
the MB says that MEN should get dressed under the covers and not expose their body this is even in the privacy of ones own bedroom- tznius is much more than men seeing womens bodies (i dont mean to say that it isnt part of it but it goes way beyond that)

2:43 PM  
Anonymous Jerry said...

I love how Anonymous Chanie believes she's being so reasonable and un-controversial when she makes the minimum claim that all elbows and knees must be covered.

It's not that simple.

Secondly, these rules are probably made up by men who walk around in the summer heat with huge furry hats on their heads and robes on top of their suits.

They probably just want others to share in their (unnecessary) misery.

3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dd- did you read my 1st sentence -
While I agree that women (and girls who are old enough) should be tzinut, even around only other women, I find the following hard to believe:


So, again, how is it un tzinut or a lack of proper chinuch if in the heat of summer, a girls a young girls leg are uncovered, between the knee and ankle , (likewise the arm from the albow to the wrist)??

I have searched the halacha about what one is meycyuv and I dont see any thing that says that tzinut is to be in a burka (or near burka)

4:05 PM  
Blogger littlejerseygirl said...

I went to a camp with the same rules as your daughters (maybe even the same camp) but at the time, I don't think they were adhered to as strictly. In my time everyone wore tube socks in the somewhat pushed down position. It was also easier because we all wore Biz skirts down to the floor.
There is a concept in current Halacha that if you live in a society where the leg is not normally covered, then it is not considered Ervah.
I don't know what I will do when it is time to send my daughters to camp. At least my school had the same rules as the camp (I wen't to school in Brooklyn Ir Hakodesh)
Now, in Jersey, my daughter's school does not have a really strict dress code, and I don't know where I will send her to camp. I dont want to send her to a place that is more to the right then her school - that sends mixed messages, but I refuse to send her to a co-ed camp (based on my friends who went to co-ed camps telling me that they would never send their own children since they KNOW what goes on there)
I wish there was a balance.

5:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

but I refuse to send her to a co-ed camp (based on my friends who went to co-ed camps telling me that they would never send their own children since they KNOW what goes on there)
I wish there was a balance.


Yes there are some very difficult decisions in coed camping, but your friends baseing is not accurate. There are wholseome coed camps, investigate them yourself.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This actually makes perfect sense considering the high levels of pedophilia that exists in todays clergy. We are all fully aware of the difficulties rabbis have controlling their unlawful temptations. Why make it harder on them?

Fact is, be it priests or rabbis, only a very specific personality self selects into high religious callings. And ironically enough, such personality is the very one we least want around our children.

7:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not sure which camp your daughter is in, but in Hedvah they have never never bothered my girls to wear knee socks until after or close to bat mitzvah (although the rules say going into 5th grade, they only truly enforced it for going into 7th and up). They also let the youngest bunks (8 and 9 year olds) unofficially wear short sleeves.
As far as I know other than Sternberg the rest of the all girls camps enforce it for all the ages. (I don't know about Dina, but certainly Raninu, Shira, Bnos, Bais Yaakov, Tubby, etc)

7:55 PM  
Anonymous anonymous mom said...

dd,

"firstly it is called chinuch a parent is obligated to train their child to follow halacha even before they reach the age of being michuyav"

This is going to be hard for you to grasp, but MO young men and women learn the actual Halacha as opposed to the Chumros. That is why they wear short socks and allow a tefach of hair to show out of their hats. You may not want your daughters to do this, but you must understand that what you are espousing as basic "Chinuch" is not basic Halacha. Yeshivish schools do not push a clear Halacha, but rather a Halacha with Chumros doctrine in all areas and no lines are drawn. I am not bitter, but I was raised in Bais Yaakov schools in a mixed MO/Yeshivish community. I am one of the lucky ones who understand both communities. The Yeshivish community owes the Halachic MO community a huge apology for misunderstanding why they dress the way they do. I am not referring to those in the MO community who do not follow Halacha. When you make comments such as the one above, you show your ignorance of what the true Halacha is. Whatever Chareidim are choosing to do in the last 15 or so years with regards to Tznius and other areas is not necessarily clear cut Halacha. Many just assume it is. Please speak to your Rav about the actual Halachot and please--if you are going to comment this way--please speak to a Y.U. Musmach about the actual Halachot of Tzniut. My Chareidi Rav who has presided on a Vaad for years is very clear on these Halachot when asked. You would be quite surprised about what is Halacha and what is Hashkafa and Chumra.

As an aside to all, in Lakewood, the girls are required to wear thigh high pantyhose at all ages. This is only one step removed from what the Chasidim require. All this is fine. It is a choice that communities and their Rabanim make, but it is not Halacha.

9:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WELL SAID

9:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think most of you are missing the point -- the girls want to wear PANTYHOSE. To summer camp. Not tights. Not kneehighs that cover all of their exposed legs. PANTYHOSE -- a garment that should only be worn by adult women.

10:02 PM  
Blogger SephardiLady said...

Which I now have to send up to camp

You *have* to send them?

I'm not in your shoes, but when my mother was, she rarely gave in to my fashion demands.

11:01 PM  
Anonymous Fox said...

There are no great lessons that can be learned from this about tznius or camps.

We already know that various communities have their own styles and standards that may/may not be defensible from a strictly halachic point of view.

Most of us also know that schools/camps often get "bugs in their ears" about some issue or another. This year you're suspended for wearing short socks; next year the socks are overlooked while purple pony-tail holders are proscribed. Again, these restrictions may/may not have basis in halacha, health, and/or safety.

The real lesson -- should we need to be reminded -- is that virtually all groups of kids find something ridiculous to wear (at least to their parents).

We should be zoche to experience true achdus as yeshivishe mothers, chassidishe mothers, MO mothers, etc., say in unison, "You're wearing WHAT?"

11:11 PM  
Blogger Rivka said...

Are the girls also shaving their legs?
I would find that equally disturbing.

11:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are all nuts...let kids be kids, and comfortable ones at that!

12:12 AM  
Blogger dd said...

allow a tefach of hair to show out of their hats.

come on now


i see many many women showing hair and none of them bishita show a tefach and no more those women who purposly show hair (i am not talking about when a haircovering slips a little) show much more than a tefach

1:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Again as said by 9:12, there is halacha and there are chumras. These camps are trying to out chumra each other, to show who can be the most strict. Can the pro chumra posters explain how wmen can be in bathing suit together (in a women only situation), but cannot be seen with ankles or knees exposed (only to other women) and still claim that tzinut is even around other women??

8:07 AM  
Anonymous anonymous mom said...

dd,
Halachic MO women, many of whom I know and with whom I attend Shiurim and see at school functions, either leave a Tefach out or none at all. They do not usually wear Shaitels, only hats although you will find those who wear both. There are more MO women who do not cover their hair at all, but I am not talking about them. I think you don't realize that this group of people exist because you do not run in their circles and do not notice them on the streets. It is much easier to notice a sexy Shaitel. Those are a dime a dozen. Respectfully, I did not notice these women until I was in Seminary and College. In Bais Yaakov, you just don't know the difference between one MO person and the next. I didn't know how serious YU Semicha guys were until I started dating them. I didn't know how inspiring and sincere Halachic MO women--wives of YU Musmachim and students of certain seminaries/many Stern girls--were. These are the circles I am in now, dd. These women are quietly, subtly covering all their hair or leaving one Tefach out. They send their kids to MO schools and camps, to Stern and YU, their Mercaz is Mercaz HaRav, their Rav is Rav Soloveitchik and their living examples and Rabanim are tremendous Talmidei Chochamim well versed in all areas of Halacha, Tanach, Gemara. It's just a world you don't know and it isn't as loud as some of the other frum worlds so most Chareidim haven't a clue about it. Please get on YUTorah.org and send your wife or daughter to Midreshet Yom Rishon lectures for women on Sundays in the winter and spring months at YU. When you look around that room, you'll know what I mean. Why do I care that so much that you know about these people?
1) We cannot love each other if we do not know each other. Here in the 9 days, we are reminded of the consequences of Sinat Chinum and the call for Ahavat Chinum. We cannot love what we do not know.

2) There are many at-risk Chareidi youth who cannot make it in the current Yeshivish system--for some, that includes the knee high pantyhose for 10 year olds. These wonderful young people either have struggles at home or have questions that weren't answered. They learn a different way. They need different things from their parents and teachers in order to be frum. I work with them. I know. So the sad part is that many of these will choose to leave Frumkeit all together rather than find a different path in Frumkeit. Why? Mainly anger, but secondly, because THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT PATHS IN FRUMKEIT. They are like you. They don't know anything about YU other than it is "modern." That is if they even take the time to think about it at all. No one in the Chareidi world (most parents and teachers) don't know enough about it to channel them in that direction. I do. Now I don't pretend to say that Halachic MO will save them from all their problems, but it will show them their Judaism in a different light and it will allow them to ask their questions and see a logic to what they are being asked to do. It will also allow them to see Halachic lines so that if they do need to rebel they won't equate Shabbos with pantyhose and rock music.
Take care, DD, and get to know your fellow Jews. Their worth it.

8:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

its truly unbelievable how ppl (including orthomom)turn a mountain out of a molehill - orthomom CHOOSES to send her daughter to a more right wing camp whose rules state that a girls legs over age 10 should be covered, in my days we all wore long skirts and short socks - these days the girls chose to wear short skirts, thereby instilling the need for knee socks, the same girls (not the camp) prefer to wear sheer knee highs with ankle socks on top giving the impression that they're not wearing "nerdy" knee socks and still getting away with looking "cool" - yet without breaking dress code. it's called a silly fad - nothing to get all worked up about - let it go!

8:59 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

it's called a silly fad - nothing to get all worked up about - let it go!

Um, right. That's why I said in my post that the tween set "likes" to wear pantyhose. No one is forcing them to follow the camp rules in that specific fashion. Of course it's a fad. But it's one that inconvenienced me, if even just a little. And thats why I have this blog. To rant about things that bug me - even the little things. And if I found it a bit annoying to run to the shipping store to send pantyhose up to my daughter, I am perfectly within my rights to tell my readers about it. No mountain out of a molehill being made here. Just my take on real life as an Orthodox Mom living in the suburbs. Take it or leave it.

9:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting discussion. As a disclaimer - I personally send my daughter to Sternberg where they need to wear socks that cover the ankle. The second half I send her to a more Bais Yaakovy day camp that demands knee socks. So I can go both ways and don't really care as long as mu daughter adheres to camp rules.

What BOTHERS me the most about this discussion is the idea that none of these halachos apply until bas mitzvah and teh feeling that imposing such restrictions is akin to Talaban like behavior? Really? Do we allow our children to be mechalel Shabbos or eat treif when they are ketanim? The idea of gil chinuch is just that - an age when a child is old enough to understand the concept of a mitzva/halacha/minhag (whatever the case may be) and begin to keep it. If the minhag of the camp or community (fill inteh blank) and that population is to wear knee socks - what is wrong with making a 10 year old girl wear knee socks or cover the elbows. 2 more years and she will be mechuyav to do so.

To me, the overemphasis on tznius that is in our education system is a big turn off and leads to many girls being turned off by the halachos. BUT, the overreaction to such rules (as apparent here) is also just as dangerous. Just go with the flow - teach your kids what you would like them to follow and chalk everythinge else up to "school (or camp) rules".

11:33 AM  
Anonymous anonymous mom said...

"BUT, the overreaction to such rules (as apparent here) is also just as dangerous."

I was merely responding to the somewhat snide comments of DD. I don't think that comments like that should be allowed to pass unanswered. This isn't a college seminar. We can go off on worthwhile tangent here and there in the blogosphere. And Orthomom can rant a bit. I don't think she's losing real sleep on this issue. Tznius is very "in" now in the right wing Yeshivish world. More than even Shmiras Haloshon and Hilchos Onaas Mamon, Dina D'Malchusa Dina. It's ok to argue about it a little. And it's ok for me to espouse the Halachic MO line of thought regarding this issue. I think it's sad that you think that the way of life I am describing is an "overreaction" and "dangerous." All the more reason for me to get the word out. I do it all the time on these blogs. Sorry. You'll just have to live with this unless they all delete me.

11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speaking of the overemphasis on tznius, here is the memo my daughter (let's just say younger than 8) came home with from camp the other day. While the Taliban-like atmosphere being imposed on my daughter may destroy her love for yiddishkeit, on the bright side, at least the chareidi world has really gotten mealymouthed, passive-aggressive, corporate double-speak down pat:

This past Friday, we sent home a reminder and even made some phone calls personally in an effort to delicately address the issue of our Dress Code here in *****. This is out second attept to firmly convey to the parents, particularly those of campers in Bunk *****, how important it is for us to uphold the standards which were established with careful deliberation and sincere consideration for both the parents and the basic tenets of modest dress.

Please be advised that if you daughter’s cover-up does not cover knees, she will be asked to wear her skirt underneath when she walks to her swim or water park activity. Additionally, at this point, if your daughter’s skirt does not cover her knees, we will call you to please bring in a more appropriate one for her to wear. Lastly, kindly remember that all we ask for in a T-shirt is that it has a minimum of short sleeves. Cap sleeves or sleeveless in not acceptable-EVEN ON A COVER UP.

Please, we have so many other areas tthat require our attention, allow us to focus on providing your daughters with a safe exciting and memorable summer experience.

Thank you

12:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Mom -- I appreciated your eloquent riff on halachic MO. You hit the nail on the head when you observed that charedi kids at risk don't know there are other flavors of frumkeit. Those that aren't aware of these alternatives, will disregard shabbos, scholarship and kashrus because they equate it with a community's official distaste for the arts, popular culture or perceived immodesty.

12:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i hate the word modern orthodox. to me you are either frum or not. if a woman walks around in shorts it does not make it right b/c she is "modern". i am not talking about chumros halachah is halacha is halacha yes and drobonons too. and we as jews must follow them. this word modern bothers me. b/c somone is modern it does not permit them to do things that other jews can not do. we are all jews and we follow one torah. and if we all follow it we are all the same. g-d cares about you following these laws, that include ben adam lachaveiro. we are all the same and some how many years ago it broke down. in the spirit of the nine days lets realize this.
kol areivim zeh la zeh.

12:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i got that memo too. since when does "basic tenets of modest dress" include covering the knees of a 7 yo????

12:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It was a disgrace to receive that memo home from my 6 year old in Machane Atara.

1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i see you are so concerned with a women wearing shorts... what about women who wear 5000.00 sheitels that are sexier than any hairdo they could ever get or women who wear a sheitel or hat and wear the tightest skirt one can find outlining her thong underwear... MODERN is everywhere!!!!

1:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

10:10 wins had a news item on the radio today: a 4 year old baby was sexually abused in boro park yesterday. she was outside her home on a quiet street, supposedly being watched by an older sister who went to play with her friends down the street. the baby was then released by her attacker 2 hours later and found in a different part of the neighborhood missing her panties. her underwear was found elsewhere.

whatever else is discussed, the saftey of our children is paramount. they are our responsibility and they are our future.

1:36 PM  
Blogger dd said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:52 PM  
Blogger dd said...

to set the record straight i never criticized MO
if you look back at all the posts you will see that a person questioned the need to have young girls dressing in a tznius fashion especially in a only-girls environment.and ended off by saying "Please help my MO mind to understand??" this was a self unidentified MO bringing up her being MO. I wasnt the one to bring it up and for that matter it wasnt even relevant for her questions

I responded with an answer

to which AM turned my whole point upside down and started defending MO which i wasnt particularly attacking
then AM brings up the issue of leaving a tefach of hair open - which many women MO and non MO do - and i responded to that again my reponse wasnt only for MOs who keep a tefach open it was for all women the many so called "yshivish" women and MO women

it seems to me AM you have a guilty conscience and feel like you are being attacked all the time
guess wat i wasnt attacking MO i was discussing specific issues that were raised that frankly cross all lines of hashkafa so come on and leave MO out of this

1:55 PM  
Blogger dd said...

and additionally lets discuss the issues
stop turning this into a MO v yeshiva world spat come on

2:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Mom,

I am anonymous at 11:33. I totally agree with you that the reaction here can be discussed and debated and orthomom should and can rant and rave. My reaction was not to this blog but what is likely translated to our kids.

What I think is "dangerouus" is 1) (which I think you agree with) the overemphasis by the hanhalos of school/camp to the point where the length or color, etc.. of a skirt, shirt or socks becomes an end all in itself. But what is equally as dangerous is 2) the parents' reaction to the school. When a kid sees the parents making a big deal out of it that puts more focus on the debate and on teh ridiculousness of teh debate

My point was that to stir the pot and continue the debate IN FRONT of our children, to call up one's friend and complain about it IN FRONT of our children just adds fuel to the fire (not to mention undermining anything that principal woudl ever say to her again). Rather than react negatively - learn the sugya with your kid and explain what you expect of her and what the school/camop expects of her (which can differ). Just diffuse the situation and kids won't think it is such a big deal.

"And it's ok for me to espouse the Halachic MO line of thought regarding this issue." Not sure what that is? Is the Halachik MO line any differnet than the yeshivish - yes socks may be an issue and certain areas taht allow a tefach here or there - but is covering your knees, hair really so different? Does the rambam/shulchan aruch/ramah mean one thing for MO and one thing for yeshivish? An MO friend of mine recently started covering her hair because she felt that she followed her rav's advice/psak on everything else, but when she really looked into it she could not find 1 MO posek who said not covering your hair is ok - they just never mentioned it for fear of getting blasted by their community.

So whatever the "MO line of thought" is - just make surethat it conforms to halacha and not just to orthoprax (little O).

3:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" charedi kids at risk don't know there are other flavors of frumkeit. Those that aren't aware of these alternatives, will disregard shabbos, scholarship and kashrus because they equate it with a community's official distaste for the arts, popular culture or perceived immodesty. "

Please - does the average MO kid (of which I was one) grow up knowing about other strains of orthodoxy - or are MO parents afraid to maybe say there is something more to the right out there. What about the "brooklyn, monsey, black hat" snide remarks I always here when I go back to my hoemtown (which is an amazing MO community with tons of chesed and torah learning).

I can count over a dozen of my MO high school friends who are no longer frum because of the inconsistencies they saw in their parent's lifestyles.

It goes both ways people.

3:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

About the attack on a 4yr old in boro park, i would like to assume we are not sending our children to camp into the hands of sexual predators, we should not have to dress our children like the amish at the age of 4 to prevent sexual abuse . Maybe the rabbis in these camps you're all talking about need to control their thoughts a little better if they can't handle seeing little girls' elbows and knees.

3:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 3:32 pm

the post about the incident in boro park has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation about the length of skirts and sleeves. it was on this morning's radio news. this, if you will, is a redirect. at the moment, the conversation seems a little less important as a small child was harmed. my assumption is that everyone weighing in here has checked out the camps they are sending their children to, and are assured of their saftey. saftey is one of the important things we all check out prior to registering our kids for camp. the conversation about clothing, campers with cell phones, sox and nude colored stockings at camp pales a little. my heart and prayers go out to the family in boro park. where is the outrage that a baby was brutally attacked?

3:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't know why anyone is so surprised about this day camp's memo and general attitude. That's why the kids in bunk __ chose to attend Shulamith instead of __. This is the same school that has "spies" on Central Avenue on Friday afternoon reporting on the sock and skirt length of of their students. What a healthy, positive environment to nurture our daughters to be b'nos yisroel. With mechanchim like these, who needs enemies . . . ?

4:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The story about the little girl in boro park sounds quite bizarre at the moment. Let's wait and see how this really unfolds before mass panic ensues.

4:13 PM  
Blogger rescue37 said...

Since when are women allowed to reveal their hair a tafech? From my recollection, Reb Moshe's psak says that IF a woman would wear a covering and intentialy display a tefach, she would not loose her kesubah. I don't recall Re Moshe saying that intentially showing a tefach is allowed. If there is a source for this tefach issue, can someone please post where it is, so I can actually see it insode and not rely on 10th degree shailah commentary.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.1010wins.com/

Child Abducted, Molested
A 4-year-old girl is recovering at a hospital after she was abducted and sexually assaulted Monday in Borough Park, Brooklyn, authorities said.
1010 WINS AUDIO: Kathleen Maloney Reports

4:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My guess is that the camp's rule requires the girls to wear knee socks, not tights; however, the girls are the ones who decided to wear tights instead, since they are less noticable than dark navy/black knee socks! it's good creativity on the part of the girls, but I still feel it is foolish to put extra concern on certain halachos when it is so uneccesary and uncalled for - especiallyt in an all girls camp.

7:47 PM  
Anonymous still wonderin' (wy you deleted my last comment) said...

Last summer, for the first time, Camp Atara decided to jump on the 'harassing little girls and their parents’ bandwagon by deciding to wear their misplaced religious fervor on the newly-too-short sleeves of little girls.

I firmly believe it nothing to do with “halacha” or “chumros” and everything to do with the chip on their shoulder Camp Atara’s administrators have about girls who attend Shulamith, due to the horrible midos of TAG girls that becomes so apparent when contrasted to Shulamith students.

Since the summertime at Camp Atara is the time of the year TAG and Shulamith girls are placed side by side, and these chinuch flaws become so self-evident, the only way to level the playing field is to hysterically underscore arbitrary tznius crimes committed by wonderful girls who have no idea that their good character and finekeit is being besmirched by practitioners of feikishkeit—the most heinous flavor of frum.

8:22 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

SW:
I think you're funny and irreverent, and you are always welcome on my blog. But I think we can all agree that making generalizations like the one in your comment directly above are meaningless and uncalled-for. Please refrain from doing so in the future. Otherwise, carry on.

10:09 PM  
Anonymous I have knees said...

The abduction and molestation of the 4 year-old girl is horrifying. I am confused, however, as to why it is being raised in this discussion thread. What does it have to do with the tzniut discussion? I can't help but wonder if the original poster of this tragedy here intended to suggest
(a) that 4-year-old children are objects of sexual desire, or
(b) that the abduction and sexual assault are attributable to the child's immodest attire

Here is a newsflash: if an individual is disturbed enough to see a 4-year-old in a sexual way, it will not matter whether that child's knees are covered.

I fully recognize and appreciate the value and importance of tzniut. What I do not, however, appreciate is imposing a rule that categorizes 6-year-old children as more or less "modest" by the proximity of their skirt hem to their knee. Modesty is a value that we imbue through our actions. I pride myself on having raised a sincerely frum and modest 6-year-old. However, calling 6-year-olds into the camp office to change them out of cap sleeve shirts and into camp t-shirts teaches kids to be embarassed of their bodies, rather than to be proud and respectful of themselves. It also teaches kids to judge and categorize others who are dressed "less modestly" as "less frum."

So while I am quite irritated by the ridiculous implication that my child is less frum than a TAG 6-year-old, I rejoice in my choice to have sent my little girl to Shulamith. After all, it was at that school that she cultivated her love of Yiddishkeit, including her respect and love for herself and other people, her love of Hashem, her love of davening, and her intrinsic sense of modesty.

By the way, I would be thrilled if someone could tell me where I could find knee-length skirts in a size 6. Perhaps Camp Atara could manufacture and sell size 6 terry burkas, along with the swim caps and camp bags they currently sell in the camp office.

10:16 PM  
Anonymous Offended TAG Parent said...


I firmly believe it nothing to do with “halacha” or “chumros” and everything to do with the chip on their shoulder Camp Atara’s administrators have about girls who attend Shulamith, due to the horrible midos of TAG girls that becomes so apparent when contrasted to Shulamith students.


Talk about hypocrisy. The above poster's middos astound me. Throwing stones at an entire school body. You're a disgusting person. Om, thanks for critizing the comment but I wish you wouldn't have told him he's welcome to stay.

10:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...



I firmly believe it nothing to do with “halacha” or “chumros” and everything to do with the chip on their shoulder Camp Atara’s administrators have about girls who attend Shulamith, due to the horrible midos of TAG girls that becomes so apparent when contrasted to Shulamith students.



Right. The TAG administration has a chip on their shoulder. But Still Wonderin' hasn't revealed himself to have a chip on his shoulder at ALL about Shulamis girls. Projecting some? Let's trash an entire school full of little kids, why don't we. Because we all know generalizations are always true. Right?

10:26 PM  
Anonymous still wonderin' said...

Bnot Shulamith girls eat and breath middos. The school has an obsessive devotion to molding fine girls with outstanding middos to complement the outstanding Torah and secular education the school provides.

Yet, oddly, whenever these outstanding girls are placed alongside "frummer" Jews, they are somehow scapegoated and besmirched as frumly-deficient due to the insecurities of others.

Disagree? That's your decision. But I call things as I see them. And I've seen this over and over again.

11:25 PM  
Blogger orthomom said...

SW, what you just said was a far cry from the stone-throwing comment you made above it. I am perfectly comfortable with your expressing the latter opinion - but not in the least comfortable with the former. You don't need to criticize the middos of one group to make the point that another group has stellar middos. It doesn't behoove you - or the girls you are speaking for.

11:32 PM  
Anonymous anonymous mom said...

dd,
It's because of anon 12:38 that I write my clarifications about modern orthodox.
"i hate the word modern orthodox. to me you are either frum or not. if a woman walks around in shorts it does not make it right b/c she is "modern". i am not talking about chumros halachah is halacha is halacha yes and drobonons too. and we as jews must follow them. this word modern bothers me. b/c somone is modern it does not permit them to do things that other jews can not do. we are all jews and we follow one torah."

The Yeshivish world does not understand that the Halachic Modern Orthodox, some--if not many (forgive my lack of stats as I don't live in the Five Towns)--send to schools like Shulamith and do consult with Rabanim on all issues of Halacha. HALACHA, HALACHA, HALACHA. Here's the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS AND THE PART THAT RELATES TO ORTHOMOM'S POST: Their rabanim poskin differently than the Yeshivish Rabanim in issues of Tznius as well as many others. And I am not talking about shorts. Their rabanim Paskin against shorts. Just as Sephardic rabbis paskin differently than Ashkenazic ones. Sephardic women--as many of us know--are not permitted to wear Shaitels. Does that make them "frummer" than you who do? The Psaks that I have gotten over the years with regards to Tznius were that ankles and knees must be covered, hair must be covered with a Tefach permitted all around. That last one, by the way, was a Psak by the Yeshivish Rav I referred to earlier. He is a well-respected black hatter and he is a straight arrow. Of course, you could argue that a Psak is given with some thought to that individual's place and needs in mind, but there are basics in Halacha that cannot be bent. ONCE AGAIN, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TANK TOPS AND SHORTS, ANON 12:38! What I want you to know is that knees and ankles are what many Rabbis Paskin and that is not less "frum." As long as you follow a Rav, are Shomer Shabbat, Kashrut, and Taharat Hamishpacha--you are frum. The rest is semantics and all of us should respect each other equally. We do not. And, btw, I agree that there is Yeshivish bashing by the MO. And of course, the ever-popular Chasidim bashing.
dd, I respond--not because I have a "guilty consience" as you say, but because I am truly, really, in my heart sick to death of all of it. And because, as I mentioned, I work with all your messed up teens--MO and Yeshivish and I am old enough to see the current that is carrying us away from what we used to know was important and because all you dd's and anon 12:38's have no clue what Halachic MO is whether you call it that or don't call it anything. You don't know these people and you don't understand why they do not look and act like you. If you people cannot admit that in the Yeshiva world today everyone must look, act, speak (Kol Tuv anyone) and dress the same, follow the same party line post high school, use the same colored tablecloth on Shabbos than you are living with your head in the sand. And that would be fine because all groups whether Orthodox Jewish or not want to belong so they tend to dress and act the same, but the problem is that the Yeshiva world condemns those who don't follow their party line. Condemns, scorns (i.e. "frum is frum, halacha is halacha"). And--as I mentioned before--the party line is often completely unrelated to actual Halacha. I have Chasidish relatives and one or two actual friends who fast twice a year; Tisha B'av and Yom Kippur. My Yeshivish and Halachic MO friends would never dream of skipping a fast. The Chasidish women who do this are not less frum. They are following the Psak of their Rabanim. There are so many examples like that. We don't cross pollinate. We don't know each other and we degrade what is different. When the Indian hair thing happened, some of my friends were walking around in snoods, some were wearing synthetic, some continued to wear their regular shaitels. The only ones I didn't respect were the ones who didn't ask their Rav. Oh and by the way, my MO friends continued to wear their hats ;) Goodnight all.

12:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

two issues: halakha/hashkafa, which we can leave to the rabbi-types; rules of the camp, which should be obeyed regardless of halakha.
of course, a parent can give a message that goes something like this: you want to go to this camp; fine. i dont think that overall you will be irreperably damaged by the experience and you will probably [hopefully] return a better person for the experience. recognize however that it is different from your school/home environment, and they have rules that i think are stupid and possibly harmful. be that as it may, you must obey these stupid rules.
is this a mixed message? i dont think so. i think that you are teaching your kid that there are certain prices of admission, and submission to rules is one of them. you dont have to agree with the rules, but they should be obeyed anyway. and you are teaching your kids your halakhic/hashkafic values, and life-lessons all in one.

fred/

2:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I:

Let's trash an entire school full of little kids, why don't we. Because we all know generalizations are always true. Right?

Well just so I understand, on this an other Blog's MO (coed) schools (of which I do not necessarly include Shulamit) are regurlary trashed, but to trash the Holy TAG is a sin

II: No parent can complain if they knew the camps rules and they dont follow them, it is the constant change in the rules that is the complaint.

7:50 AM  
Anonymous Frank said...

If parents decide to send their progeny to Camp Dogma, they should be prepared to march in lockstep with the the order of the day. There are so many choices of camps eg Hillel, Lavi, Mesorah or Seneca Lake....why do you do this to yourselves & your entire families?
Is it shidduch apprehension for a kid who is 8 years old or an older sibling?

8:11 AM  
Anonymous Observer said...

I don't get what you all don't understand. Let me clarify these issues for all of you. See where I hold hashgafically and halachically: those to the right of me are crazy fanatics and those to the left are godless heathens. You are all welcome.

9:06 AM  
Blogger orthomom said...

I:

Let's trash an entire school full of little kids, why don't we. Because we all know generalizations are always true. Right?

Well just so I understand, on this an other Blog's MO (coed) schools (of which I do not necessarly include Shulamit) are regurlary trashed, but to trash the Holy TAG is a sin


You're not going to see me making generalizations about any body of students from any school. No school is afforded the pleasure of a student body with monolithic behavior patterns. To make a sweeping statement that implies otherwise about any school is simply untrue. So you won't hear it from me, about any school.

9:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

without getting into the whole discussion, my very reliable rabbeim when i was in Israel for the year made it very clear that ankles do not halachicly have to be covered. That is a chumra as well. however, when going to a place where the custom is to cover ankles...meah shearim, boro park lakewood, etc. one should cover them out of respect to the community. And i went to a pretty right wing seminary

9:49 AM  
Anonymous Frank said...

What or whom you consider "reliable rabeim" may not mean a hill of beans to others. Continue with whatever works !

10:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

its respect for ones customs. in college i had a girl who was not frum but her sister was and lived in brooklyn. she told me that when she would go to boro park, not even to her sisters house but to boro park she would put a skirt on and dress properly, out of respect.
i think the the problem is we dont respect each other and that i think is the cause of most of these arguments.

11:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Send the girls to Sternberg. It is quiet, rewarding and a lot of fun. We don't come across a clothing issue too often, and when we do, it is a discreet call and reminder. We've had more problems with long skirts being tripped over when playing soccer or when climbing out of the boats.

One parent did something quite helpful: she took denim cargo type shorts (below the knee)and sewed flaps on both sides. It took us four seeks to find out that these were "coulotte" type pants and we (the staff) were actually thrilled because it was a discreet way of handling a problem too. To me, this makes more sense and those who wear a skirt with long pants under it. THAT I have seen all the time by both children and women in the Five Towns.

Long skirts can be very dangerous. Tee-shirts that end just at the elbow are fine and socks must at least cover the ankle.

Those children who are being pressured into wearing much more strit attire are losing out on a wonderful camp experience and will rebel in their later years.

Chani

3:01 PM  
Blogger MoChassid said...

Chani's right. Sternberg is a very normal place (although I hear it's on the outs in some Chareidi circles because it is a Federation camp). Also, the girls live in tents. They don't blow dry their hair all summer. Can you imagine?

4:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let me add my praise for Sternberg. My girls are having a great time there.

Sternberg manages to be very frum, but without the frummer than thou (or more tznius than thou) nonsense that has taken over so much of our community.

4:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So you won't hear it from me, about any school.


my comment was directed at your anno posters.

4:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"REMINDER: Over a full year has passed since IDF soldiers Gilad Shalit, Ehud Goldwasser, and Eldad Regev were kidnapped by Hamas and Hezbollah."

Please. We're talking about pantyhose, here! Can you please leave the "politics" for a different blog. Sheesh.

8:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sternberg's sensibilities and attitude sounds perfect for those looking for a common sense approach to this issue. Bravo!

8:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

om: maybe a better topic would be how to watch our children more closely instead of wasting time discussing this nonsense.. in light of the abduction and sexual molestation of a 4 year old girl left in the care of her " big" sister (5) -- maybe the soapbox should be on WATCH YOUR CHILDREN!!! how many times how we watched unattended toddlers roaming out of sight of their mothers who are discussing your recent blog ( hahaha) i, for one, would love you to publicize the fact that children are left unattended quite frequently.

9:11 PM  
Anonymous Skokie Yid in the Catskills said...

This thread has arisen in perfect timing to some issues I am having with where I want to send my almost 11-year-old daughter next summer.

Some background:
We are baalei teshuvah. My daughter was in public school until the end of 2nd grade. She has been in a somewhat left-wing Jewish day school for three full years now.
She has also been attending a kiruv-based shomer Shabbos all girls camp in NY for 3 summers as well.

On visiting day this year, I was taken back by the (non) level of tznius & proper behavior at this camp that a few years ago I would have thought was over the top, frum wise.

The camp probably hasn't changed that much. Most likely it's us moving more to the right, as I am also having issues with the day school.

So, I VERY much wish to explore other avenues of campdom.

I know of Morasha, but I hear it's co-ed and too "modern", whatever that means.
We checked out Emunah, as we are very Chabad-friendly, but it may be too much for my daughter.
I've heard of Camp Dina, but don't know much about it.
A few trusted friends highly recommend Sternberg, as they believe it's perfect for we we are right now.

I'd like your opinions, please..... and no sarcastic one. If you have nothing nice to say, be quiet.

Thank you.

9:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 9:11 pm

i am so glad someone else is outraged about the incident in boro park. i spoke about this yesterday on this blog, and was totally ignored and misunderstood. it seems that the length of skirts and sleeves are more relevant. i stopped a very young child wandering out of a store not long ago, and the mom was totally unaware that the child was not by her side.
This is inexcusable. MOTHERS, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR CHILDRED.

10:05 PM  
Anonymous Boiling In Tamarac said...

Anonymous, I'm sure everyone here is outraged. Do we all need to repeat your words?

Mothers, watch your children!

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

apparently, so few mothers seem to care about anything other than what there neighbors think.

11:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry, late night and no sleep.. the word is "their"

11:43 PM  
Anonymous gabe said...

"Anonymous said...
Send the girls to Sternberg.... and will rebel in their later years.

Chani

3:01 PM "

How disappointed I was to read your post. I am a parent of two teenage girls, both of whom were scheduled to spend August in Camp Sternberg. Although my wife felt somewhat wary about sending our daughters there, I felt that the broader spectrum of frum girls that they'd be exposed to would be an experience that would help them grow in ahavas yisroel, and present opportunities for kiddush shem shamayim that may not arise in a more right winged enviroment. Both my wife and I spend an extraordinary amount of time and energy trying to instill in our daughters an appreciation for the beauty of tznius both in actions as well as attire. NOT RULES THAT HAVE TO (UNFORTUNATELY) BE ADHERED TO, but a way of life that respects the position and responsibilty that comes with being a BAS MELECH.
Now that I have read the attitude of a STAFF MEMBER of the camp, (tznius is a "problem" that has to be "solved"?!?!) I sincerely regret our decision, and hope it's not too late to get my daughters into another camp. Wow, Chani, you sure taught me a lesson-Kol Asher tomar eilecha-shmah b'kola...I should have listened to my wife.

1:41 AM  
Blogger MDmom said...

gabe,

first of all, you should always listen to your wife ;-)!

chani from camp sternberg comes across as very sane and having a down-to-earth sensibility when it comes to tzniut and physical activity. she did not say that tzniut was a problem that had to be solved, the problem was/is floor-duster skirts (which certain factions deem unacceptable as well) that get in the way and pose a danger to the girls in certain activities, ie: getting out of rowboats, playing contact sports. there is a happy medium, a skirt that hits midcalf with a slit or kickpleat + socks, for example. causing girls to curtail their lifestyle because of overzealous tzniut requirements will cause resentment that could spill over into other areas. chani is 100% correct in that assessment.

misreading the words of one staff member and using this one statement (out of context, no less) to condemn an entire institution makes it seem like you are simply looking for the smallest excuse to justify not sending your girls there. from your comment, even after proclaiming your advocacy for a more "heterogenuous" environment for your girls, it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with a stricter place for your family. if so, own it. but don't denigrate chani or the camp for their sane approach to tzniut and physical activity for girls.

3:18 AM  
Blogger MDmom said...

sorry, that should be "heterogeneous."

3:54 AM  
Anonymous Skokie Yid in the Catskills said...

Gabe, I must concur that you most definitely overreacted to Chani.

Listen, if you want a more right-wing camp, then go for it.

From what I hear, Sternberg is mostly Beis Yaacovy and does things perfectly.

Come on people, give me some input on the camps I mentioned, as well as others you recommend.

7:20 AM  
Anonymous still wonderin' said...

"Now that I have read the attitude of a STAFF MEMBER of the camp, (tznius is a "problem" that has to be "solved"?!?!) I sincerely regret our decision, and hope it's not too late to get my daughters into another camp. Wow, Chani, you sure taught me a lesson-Kol Asher tomar eilecha-shmah b'kola...I should have listened to my wife.

And now for a rhetorical question ... How much of a moron must one be to express how bitterly he/she regrets a decision they made through much research and soul searching just by reading one annonymous, subjective comment left on a blog?

7:34 AM  
Blogger MDmom said...

skokie --
i can tell you what camp morasha was like when i went there as a kid. of course, this was more than several summers ago, and the camp is now under different administration, but then, the fact that it was co-ed meant that there were boys and girls in the same camp. full stop. there was no interaction between them (boys and girls campuses are separated by about 1/2 mile maybe more plus the dining room, the cabins where shiurim take place and some wooded paths. after shabbat lunch we had a 15 minute "pigisha" with the boys, for the purpose of siblings being able to see each other, but of course, there were couples who hung out. there were mixed supervised night activities and camp trips. other mixing of genders was not allowed. the staff restrictions were less tight. actually, one year i was there as a camper, a group of girls was kicked out for planning a "social raid" to the boys but they got caught before they even reached the boys' bunk. lots of skirt wearing among the older girls but not manadatory, lots of ruach, shiur was an hour each day as opposed to the 1/2 hr-45mins of other camps, this was clearly a modern orthodox camp, though when i was a kid it was very much on the the stricter end of modern orthodox sleepaway camps -- my friends who went to other more relaxed camps could not understand how my parents could send me to "jail" for the summer! now, i have no idea what kind of camp it is, and i haven't bothered to check it out as i live in israel now, it's not really relevant to my childrens' summer vacations.

7:54 AM  
Anonymous Frank said...

In the Satmer world & other like minded communities, boys are encouraged to be wild, while girls, from a very early age, are trained not to talk or laugh loudly, even with friends, publicly. While walking in the street eyes should be towards the sidewalk. Did you know that residents of the failed Satmar community in Bayswater were forbidden to be on Central Av?. So if this is your lifestyle...go for it!! But don't tell me what's proper

7:56 AM  
Anonymous still wonderin' said...

But Satmar girls aren't discouraged from wearing nude panyhose; provided, of course, that they have thick seams along the back.

9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gabe, since you seem to be a literalist, let me explain what Chani was trying to say (I will speak s l o w l y): tznius is not a problem that must be solved, but normal camp activities that could become a physical hazard may pose a problem that must be solved.

Therefore, creative, sensible and tznius solutions must be found. This is an approach that is compatible with your desire for an organic appreciation of modest atire and behavior not dictated by social pressure. Someone who has an innate desire to be modest will find a happy medium that balances physical safety and relaxing activities with the need to be modest.

No, Gabe: not "happy medium" as in "compromised ideals" (I have to remember that you analyze each word). Happy medium, as in "levelheaded, sane." Savvy?

Whew. People, chill out.

9:35 AM  
Blogger Abbi said...

Hey mdmom, when did you go to Morasha? I went there from about 1985-1990.

And I had the same reactions from my friends about "the jail". When I worked in Moshava as a counselor, I was amazed at how laid back a camp could be!

1:44 PM  
Blogger MDmom said...

abbi --

we were there at the same time...

the co-ed camp i went to before morasha (which is now an all girls camp) was an absolute country club by comparison!

2:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can some explain to me one thing? Is anyone holding a gun to your head,, forcing you to send your daughter to a "charedi camp"?
Last time I checked there were all kinds of schools AND all kinds of camps. if you choose to "cross over " for the summer, DON'T COMPLAIN !!!

3:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I went to many camps (Dora Golding, Naarim, Morasah and raleigh). Morasha was by far the most strict camp. Someone called it jail, I called it prision.

4:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

THANK YOU MDMOM AND OTHERS!

I totally agree with mdmom's statement that overzealous tzniut requirements will cause resentment that could spill over into other areas.

To read more into my words that don't exist is baseless and wrong.

A few years ago, Camp Sternberg played host to a camp down the road, run by a non-frum family for children with developmental disabilities. The girls were nothing less than loving, nurturing and caring toward these children.

Lest we forget the fundamentals in life should not leave out the "fun" that the camping experience is supposed to be.

Gabe, your daughter is more than wlecome at Sternberg and you will be very pleased too. You will better assess the situation if you saw for yourself and with your daughter's feedback.

Chani

6:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry, camp is just too expensive to be looked at as being a jail or prison. i have 5 children who have gone to and are currently in summer camp, and can find many other places to spend my money. if my children told me that they viewed summer camp as being incarcerated, i would not be happy at all and would immediately look to change the situation for the following summer. there are many other opportunities out there.

9:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and that is why I only went to morasha for 1 summer, my sibling went for 9

9:51 PM  
Blogger Dr. E said...

While many have lauded the praises of Sternberg (with which I wholeheartedly concur), the saddest truth is that it is somehow seen as being "grandfathered in" and has therefore not publically been ostracized by the Right (yet). Bit, if someone were to l'chatchila try to open a girls camp like that today, the powers that be would never let that happen. That's why the new camps which open every few years are made to fall in line with the other tzniyus-centric ones in order to win acceptance from school administrators and parents.

What a shame.

10:10 PM  
Blogger Jack's Shack said...

I have to agree with the person who said that these stockings make you sweat.

Whenever I go to the bank I make sure to wear one. Not only does it completely mess up my hair, but I schvitz like you cannot imagine.

2:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jack's Shack: Don't put the stockings over your head next time when you go to the bank!

Just a lighthearted joke. LOLOL

8:46 AM  
Blogger Jack's Shack said...

Jack's Shack: Don't put the stockings over your head next time when you go to the bank!

But then they wouldn't give me any money.

11:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This whole discussion beyond scary, but I will point out that all the escalating Taliban style edicts have nothing to do with Judaism and everyhing to do with scools and rabbis' need to "outfrum" each other. What's getting lost is the rise of a generation of freaks who are only remotely normal in their own insular communities. If the goal was to turn brain washed, repressed kids into ignorant and intolerant adults, it has been met.

8:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Girls' socks have attracted more comments than any other Blog topic since the School Board elections. Amazing. A sign of our times!

Last year I went with my wife to an evening meeting about a new camp that was being formed, S'Dei Chemed for Girls. One of the first audinece questions was about the tziniut/dress requirements and I was amazed that this item had such a high priority! Any way, the rules--as presented by the right-wing Rabbonim running the camp--seem reasonable, similar to the Sternberg policy. The cost (for 6 weeks including airfare/trips/etc)is minimally more than 8 weeks at a standard right-wing Catskills camp and less than a pricier MO camp.

1:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd love to see what your cult is going to do if Al Gore turns out to be right.

Perhaps an eruv for exposed hair, knees and elbows?

You really can't help but generate your own comedic material.

Can you?

9:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i heard about how camp atara is harrasing people this summer, they should really be shut down, they're pathetic

11:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems like just about everyone has forgotten where the word tzniyut comes from. Very sad.

12:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems like just about everyone has forgotten where the word tzniyut comes from. Very sad.

How about the concept of "women's liberation"? Plenty can't even comprehend what that means or entails.

I find THAT sad.

10:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"women's liberation"

This term should not mean a lesser standatrd of tzinut is allowed. It means that women are empowered to make indpendent determinations about themselves.

In most communities that have strict tzinut codes, this term is not an issue as the women are happy with (or at least express happiness) with their station in life.

10:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess you're right. Nothing says "happiness" to woman like an archaic dress code in 90 degree heat.

10:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

or being deemed "impure" during a monthly bodily process that occurs once a month.

Sign me up!

10:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In most communities that have strict tzinut codes, this term is not an issue as the women are happy with (or at least express happiness) with their station in life.

10:13 AM

have you done a study to determine that these women are content with their "station" in life? as a professional in the mental health industry,,their level of "happiness" may be determined by the amount of abuse laden on the individual..just because they stay within the "station", does not mean they are happy... please stay away from making unfounded statements as fact.

7:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I got news for you, I'll bet they don't even KNOW if they are happy.

7:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't disagree and that is why my comment included the following:

"(or at least express happiness)"

1:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally get where you're coming from. Believe me. You're preaching to the choir!

Because you stated that you are a mental health professional, can I ask you a question?

How does one TRULY know they are happy if so many choices are laid out and already decided for them?

I find it AMAZING that anyone could find this over-the-top level of observance even remotely healthy.

How can any intelligent woman living in the 21st century buy into any of this nonsense?

Could it possibly be a self-esteem issue?

2:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

it would take numerous textbooks to explain all the basics you touched on... look up online the concept of a "closed community" cultural diversity and traditions will define many lives.

6:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can see being brought up (brain washed) in an Orthodox environment and not "knowing" any better but what about those (women specifically) who marry into that lifestyle and give up so much of their own individuality?

Clearly some sort of self-image or self-sense must clearly be lacking.

How do you swallow believing that you should cover up your knees and elbows (eyes rolling) for the sake of modesty?

How do you internalize that you are "impure" during a normal bodily process that occurs once a month?

How do you not bristle at the notion that little girls should not sing in front of adult males or women cannot worship next to men?

How is this somehow OK and not thought of as a sign of mental illness or, at the VERY least a sign of backwards thinking?

I guess because somehow religion ALLOWS this to be OK and all common sense gets thrown out the window.

Sad indeed.

8:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


How is this somehow OK and not thought of as a sign of mental illness or, at the VERY least a sign of backwards thinking?


Nice to see that under the guise of tolerance and modernity you can display such closed-mindedness to other people's beliefs. In my opinion, backward-thinking is the inability to accept other people's lifestyle choices.

8:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the Satmer world & other like minded communities, boys are encouraged to be wild, while girls, from a very early age, are trained not to talk or laugh loudly, even with friends, publicly. While walking in the street eyes should be towards the sidewalk. Did you know that residents of the failed Satmar community in Bayswater were forbidden to be on Central Av?. So if this is your lifestyle...go for it!! But don't tell me what's proper




Shame on you!! what issues have you got with the satmar community
you Disguesting Five towns people take a look at the Gourmet Glatt Story becouse of a community like you and like the RABBONIM you preach with a Bitter and Endless story like gg Happend Did you read
this morning Why The chorben
Bais Hamikdush Happend ?

Does the story of kamtzu and bar kamtzu ring a bell?
all the CHOSHEVE ROBBONIM were sitting and that same meal and allowed that bar kamztzu was kiked out like that

wait and see Rabbonim and the community need to do Teshuva before a chorben five towns can happen
shame on you five towns

i will never forget!!!

12:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice to see that under the guise of tolerance and modernity you can display such closed-mindedness to other people's beliefs. In my opinion, backward-thinking is the inability to accept other people's lifestyle choices.


If close-mindedness means a refusual to validate a belief system that encourages women to give up a huge sense of individuality, promotes segregation on numerous levels and looks upon homosexuality as an abonimation then I'm guilty as charged.

5:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you know what annon 12:52 - there are a lot of different kinds of people living in the 5 towns. it is (used to be more so) a diverse community. make no mistake, it is not a ghetto, so shame on all residents? i think not. shame on you.

1:58 PM  
Anonymous balabusta in blue jeans said...

Wearing sheer pantyhose is not modest, unless you are wearing an adult woman's clothes over them, because you are an adult woman.

By me, little girls in pantyhose is untsniusdic, regardless of what else they're wearing. And for camp, it's nuts. The counselors really allow this? I'd be confiscating anything sheer. And I'm Conservative.

Knee-highs under skirts is perfectly modest, plus they come in cool colors and designs and can be swapped for. Also, they offer some knee protection for running around.

6:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:58 PM: Read the definition of a ghetto: "A ghetto is an area where people from a specific racial or ethnic background live as a group in seclusion, voluntarily or involuntarily."

Cedarhurst and Lawrence has surely become a ghetto.

Stop kidding yourself already!

9:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that if the little girls want to wear pantyhose, than maybe this camp is the only place they can enjoy wearing pantyhose if they normally can't at home. It is exciting for them to act grown up and have fun with it. And camp is supposed to be a place to get away from the real world and have fun! I don't see anything wrong with it. It's what they want to do. Who cares!

12:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My daughter doesn't go to TAG, Atara or the anonymous sleepaway camp. She is 8 years old. She decided this past year that she doesn't wear short sleeves anymore and most of the time she wears knee socks. Once in a while she'll wear socks that are lower. In our backyard water slide- she wears cover ups. Why? Beacause it makes her happy and she feels comfortable that way (and no she's not fat). I grew up in modern schools/ camps and have since moved more to the right. A part of me would love to see my daughter look more comfortable on her way to camp and not look like she's always going to Shul. But my biggest feeling? TREMENDOUS pride and love for my daughter, the decisions she's making and the maturity she's showing. If she's happy and this is what makes her feel good- you know she's a kid- they deal with being hot a lot better than adults- and it doesn't seem to bother them. I hope she continues this way.

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9:09 PM  
Anonymous ploini ben ploni said...

DON'T FOOL YOURSELF !

the camp environment is not all-girls.

men can enter an all girls camp

and see your duaghters.

11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Could someone recommend a summer camp for my daughter (age 11) that does productions? I was told Camp Raninu? We are BT's and I don't want to overwelm her. As I have read in this blogg there is a lot to think about. She is very mature for her age, but still.
Please email me @
sweinst864@yahoo.com
Thanks

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9:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what camp is this anyway

4:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

does anybody know wht camp hedvas website is post it if you do this is retarted i cant get in touch with them i want to see if i can print out a registration form on the inteernet

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